Heat & Power

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Lucidguy_3000

n00b
Joined
Nov 10, 2004
Messages
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Firstly, a thanks to the inhabitants of the Hardforums. I owe much of my personal knowledge to the people who post here. :cool:

Now that the intros done with... :p

Im planning my new cooling system to consist of:

CPU Block:
Dominator Pro 360w
http://www.frozencpu.com/cgi-bin/frozencpu/ex-blc-106.html

GPU Blcok:
Swiftech MCW50-T (80w TEC)
http://www.swiftnets.com/products/mcw50-T.asp

Radiator:
Black Ice Xtreme 3
http://www.hwlabs.com/products/blackicextreme3.html

Pump:
DangerDen DD12V-D4
http://www.dangerden.com/mall/Pumps/dd12vd4.asp

PSU:
Silenx 600 watt w/ 36A on 12v line
http://www.3dcool.com/Details.asp?cid=5&id=666

My questions are:
Do you think the Black Ice Xtreme 3 is enough to cool this system if the blocks are set up in a single circuit?

&

Is the Silenx PSU enough to power both my cooling + my computer?
My computer consists of:
P4 2.6ghz (to be over clocked after all this obviously...)
MSI mobo
1gb Corsair DDR
ATI x800 Pro (agp)
SB Audigy Platinum w/ Live Drive
2 cd roms
2 hardrives
1 floppy

Any comments/sugestions appreciated, even those not directed at my questions :D
 
That water block has a 25V TEC - you're not going to get the cooling you want running it at 12 volts. If you get the Dominator a power supply of its own, the PSU you linked will be able to handle the rest.

The rad should be okay. You can alway add another if your water temperatures are too high.
 
wouldnt two 12v connectors add to 24v though?just like 2 1.5v AA batteries add up to 3v?

Also, if thats not the case, could i use my Antec Truepower (i think 420 or 410 watts?) to power all but the dominator and then get the dominator its own PSU?
 
The forzencpu website has a link to a review which goes over basic instalation of the domiator (follow my link and find the review somewhere on the left side of the page i think). yea, you use equal-length pieces to connect to a Y split. of course either the inlet or outlet hoses will have to be longer than the others so that they can overlap, they have pics in the review that show this better.
 
Just an observation:
I wouldn't plumb it like they did. I recommend running equal lengths back to the reservoir independently. Using an unnecessary Y bracket to combine the outlets will cause more pressure head across the block in your circuit.

installed1%20(Large).jpg


Holy cow! My DDen TDX is cowering in fear.
 
If i Y split it to the inlets then ran independant lines that would obviously be an improvment, but theres one small issue...
Im planning on running the GPU cooler on the same circuit, so should i have the system feed into the gpu cooler first then do independant lines from the cpu back to the resevoir?

Also, should the system go Pump -> Radiator -> Blocks -> Resevoir -> Pump or
Pump -> Blocks -> Resevoir -> Radiator -> Pump?
Thanks again, oh, and if anyone has some help withth power issue that would be awesome!
 
Lucidguy_3000 said:
Also, should the system go Pump -> Radiator -> Blocks -> Resevoir -> Pump or
Pump -> Blocks -> Resevoir -> Radiator -> Pump?
Thanks again, oh, and if anyone has some help withth power issue that would be awesome!
Click to expand...

quick before bed time.

I'm running "Resevoir -> Pump -> Rad -> Y-split into a+b > a. CPU -> resivoir b. GPU ->chipset -> resivoir "
with that seriously massive CPU block you may think about 2 parallel circuits or something.


...and after our discussion today I tried doubling up on a PSU in a test circuit... VERY BAD ...it doubled the voltage along the entire rail. this would have fed 24V to my poor DVD-R.

I went and grabbed 2 old AT power supplies and put those guys in series. I used the 12V lines to power all of my fans, LEDs Cathodes n crap... then used the 24V line to power my DDen pump @ 24V DC!!!! w00t! dropped me 3C @ idle.
Considering this old thing can only 24/2Amps @ 24V you can *maybe* power that 300W TEC, but this thing only will do 288W on paper.

now I have 2 junker PSUs (#1 radioshack 12V 1.75A, #2 250W-AT used computer PSU) running all Auxillary hardware, and my main PSU only dealing with the board, GPU, ROMS & HDDs.
very nice.

I'm very tired and sure there are typos.
 
Lucidguy_3000 said:
wouldnt two 12v connectors add to 24v though?just like 2 1.5v AA batteries add up to 3v?

Also, if thats not the case, could i use my Antec Truepower (i think 420 or 410 watts?) to power all but the dominator and then get the dominator its own PSU?
Click to expand...
It doesn't quite work that way. If you had two independent 12v sources, you could hook them in series to get 24V, but trying that with a single PSU will cause a short circuit (possibly killing your PSU).

Yes, the supply you linked to will power all the parts minus the Dominator TEC.

To power the the Dominator, you can either buy a power supply that gives the voltage you want, or wire two Meanwell supplies together like in the ad, or wire two ATX supplies together.

But first, you should think about the voltage you want to run it at. At 25 volts, it will need 600 watts of electric power (and generate 600 W of waste heat) and give you 360 watts of potential cooling with up to a 66° delta-T (temperature difference across the TEC).
Code: 
volts  power/heat  cooling  max delta-T
 25       600        360        66.0
 24       553        357        65.4
 23       508        352        64.6
 22       465        347        63.7
 21       423        341        62.5
 20       384        334        61.2
 19       347        326        59.8
 18       311        317        58.2
 17       277        307        56.4
 16       246        297        54.4
 15       216        285        52.3
 14       188        273        50.0
 13       162        259        47.5
 12       138        245        44.9
The fun part is finding the balance between the addition cooling power of a higher voltage versus the extra heat the waterblock and radiator need to deal with. The general rule is that you should run your TECs at 70 to 80 percent of full power, but results vary...

I'd probably wire the 5 volt line of an ATX supply to the 12 volt of another to get 17 V. Good cooling without too much heat; delta-T is still good; saves money on power supplies. It would require a PSU with 17 amps available on the 5V and one with 17A on the 12V...

As for plumbing it - how about res->pump->rad->GPU->Y=>CPU=>res ? I've also seen radiators that were modded to have one inlet and two outlets, which would let you go res->pump->GPU->rad=>CPU=>res.
 
With the setup you are going for... you can pretty much forget about ATX power supplies. You need heavy duty meanwell's for shit like this. TEC setups are fickle. If you don't do this right, you'll be lucky if your problem is so-so temps.
 
I saw some 12V 24A PSUs @ Fry's Electronics which were look-alikes. They're much cheaper I could probably get 2 for around $80 vs. the 1 meanwell for $85.

d00d for free I just hooked up two 250W AT PC Power Supplies (with the same specs as the meanwells). These things were free (because everyone has some old AT PSUs laying around)!!
I like ATs because they're simply turned on by the power switch. ...no funky modding like on the ATX style PSU.

I'm sure this guy can find two old 300W+ PSUs ...and as long as he's confident in them not failing
 
Thanks alot for all the help everyone, i at least know what power setup i will need :)
Unfortunetly theres another problem, looks like i cant get my procc to even overclock to a point where it would need this kind of cooling :rolleyes: im planning on posting in the overclocking main forum to see if anyone has any idea on why. thanks again!
 
fore1337 said:
I saw some 12V 24A PSUs @ Fry's Electronics which were look-alikes. They're much cheaper I could probably get 2 for around $80 vs. the 1 meanwell for $85.

d00d for free I just hooked up two 250W AT PC Power Supplies (with the same specs as the meanwells). These things were free (because everyone has some old AT PSUs laying around)!!
I like ATs because they're simply turned on by the power switch. ...no funky modding like on the ATX style PSU.

I'm sure this guy can find two old 300W+ PSUs ...and as long as he's confident in them not failing
Click to expand...

Those are 12 volts though... I'm talking about real deal 24v or 18v supplies. ;)
These two you hooked up, you have them pushing in the neighborhood of 20 volts or no? A nice 25 or so amps at that voltage and you'll be well on your way to the comfort zone. I just think if you go the ATX route, you'll be better off with two pretty decent supplies. Dedicated PS's wouldnt cost much more, and you may even be able to mount this stuff all pretty up in your case. Better power, better reliability... hence more nice chilly, and living hardware. Eyes on Ebay and sometimes you can pick one up cheap.

Sure maybe you could underpower it. But if I recall the TEC in the dominator is larger than standard 50mm ones. 62 mm or something right? The cooling power is spread out over a larger surface area, and hence harder to utilize it all on a comparatively tiny die. Get by maybe but put it together and now all of a sudden instead of an uber TEC, you have something that can probably hold it's own against a standard 226w.... probably.

To each there own though... like this guy in the link says ... you save like $50. Follow the overclock.net links posted. Apparently you can get 12v/28A supplies for $17 a piece and have at it. I'd ask you how it goes but I'm most interested in a month or two from now. You still need pretty much your target current plus the cushion on each supply. Don't think you're getting double v and amps with the series trick.
http://www.overclock.net/showthread.php?t=3612&page=2&pp=10
 
texuspete00 said:
Those are 12 volts though... I'm talking about real deal 24v or 18v supplies. ;)
These two you hooked up, you have them pushing in the neighborhood of 20 volts or no? A nice 25 or so amps at that voltage and you'll be well on your way to the comfort zone.
Click to expand...

After some experimenting I came to the conclusion that it is much safer to build a redundant system.

Working with 2x independent AT or ATX PSUs you have the ability to mix-n-match using a 5v and 12v rail.
options result as: 5v@24A, 10v@48A, 12v@24A, 17v@48A, 24v@48A (you could always build a voltage divider is you need something in between )(I can DMM these values to verify)
5v@24A, 10v@48A, 12v@24A, 17v@48A, 24v@48A
Click to expand...
if any failure occurs in PSU these modes result to worst case:
5.v@24A, --> 0V 0A dead
10v@48A, -->5V 24A
12v@24A, -->0V 0A dead
17v@48A, -->5V 24A
24v@48A -->12V 24A

You're also allowed 2x the rated amperage of one PSU. let's say your PSU #2 dies, at least you're still running TEC and water pump on 12V DC (up to 24A draw). ....you get to stay alive.

I've had a hard time finding a 24V-DC PSU that offers more than 7amps (guessing the meanwells offer 24Amps). Well if you run 2x 250W AT PSUs you have available up to 48 theoretical Amps possible.

if $ is not an option, you could always put 2x meanwells in parallel with each other. This will double your Amperage capabilities @ 24V, and introduce redundancy into your system.

so* I'm not sure what exactly you're getting @ about the voltages & AMPs ..but both solutions would work fine in his case.

real deal 24v or 18v supplies
Click to expand...
as for a REAL 24V supply, it's cheaper (sometimes free) and better (more possible amperage => more wattage) to use 2x 12V supplies.

it doesn't look as nice having two ugly AT PSUs laying around... but I gave up on pretty shit after I wasted $100 buying that Ultra X-Connect 500W P.O.S.

please elaborate on any flaws in my logic.
 
You don't get to add the amperages when running in series - the resultant voltage will be the sum of the two supplies, but the amperage will be the lower of the two. Examples: 15A at 12V and 1A at 12V would give 24 volts but only 1 amp; 10A at 5V in series with 30A and 12 will give 10A at 17V.

The only time you get to add the amps is when running identical voltages in parallel. And even then, you have to be careful that the voltages are IDENTICAL or one supply will try to run current backwards through the other.

Running series supplies doesn't give any redundancy. If one dies, the other won't be able to run any power through the dead one, you'll have zero volts.
 
HeThatKnows said:
You don't get to add the amperages when running in series - the resultant voltage will be the sum of the two supplies, but the amperage will be the lower of the two. Examples: 15A at 12V and 1A at 12V would give 24 volts but only 1 amp; 10A at 5V in series with 30A and 12 will give 10A at 17V.

The only time you get to add the amps is when running identical voltages in parallel. And even then, you have to be careful that the voltages are IDENTICAL or one supply will try to run current backwards through the other.

Running series supplies doesn't give any redundancy. If one dies, the other won't be able to run any power through the dead one, you'll have zero volts.
Click to expand...

sorry:
I should have specified. I was speaking as if I was runnign 2x identical computer PSUs.
I'll have to read up on summing of the amperages.

The level of redundandy I was speaking of was not 100% redundancy, but a 'fall back' mode. So if one of the 2 PSUs fail, you most likely won't have an instant meltdown. I've already tested this out on my system, by dropping a PSU and the circuit going from 24V -> 12V. I just have to figure a way to get windows to shut down if this happens. possibly spoofing a fan feedback number to the mobo based on circuit voltage. a better form of redundancy would be 2x 24V psu in parallel.

thanks for the interesting discussion Lucidguy
thanks for the informative critiques on my ideas HeThatKnows
 
ROFL.... 24V & 48 amps.... dunno about that one. Someone needs to learn the difference between series and parallel.
 
fore1337 said:
I've already tested this out on my system, by dropping a PSU and the circuit going from 24V -> 12V.
Click to expand...
Was this with a load, or just testing the voltage with a multimeter?
 
HeThatKnows said:
Was this with a load, or just testing the voltage with a multimeter?
Click to expand...

[under load]
I'm not running TEC, just fans & pumps from the 2 PSUs.
 
my post has taken a life of its own...does anyone have any more specific advice on what kinda supplies to use to power a system like the one i mentioned?
 
I'd go with a 24v or maybe 18v meanwell. It is the most reliable. The guys math up there is not right. Even outside of comps... going in series can increase your volts but does not yield additional amps. Parallel wiring 12v can increase current, but that would not yield 24v.

If you needed 24v and say 25 amps.... you would need to put two 12v/25 amp supplies in series to get that and you want a cushion too. More loopholes/problems... most cheap supplies need a load on the 5v rail for the 12v to operate correctly. What about blancing the load then? I really don't know all the specifics 100% so thats why I didnt take the bait earlier.

But the flaw in the theory was just doubling numbers without proper knowledge of what series wiring is at all. 24V & 48 amps? False. Redundant setup? False. That solution was the impossible, getting the advantages of both series and parllel.... with even redundancy thrown in for free! Uh... woot :rolleyes: I try to disclose that I am by no means a electrical engineer, but do be on the lookout for those that don't do the same. I am willing to learn and take on any explanations someone more knowledgable would like to share - dispel any misconceptions I might have. But Mr. Fore's problem with his theory, since he wanted to know, was pretty much that it flies in the face of everything the world knows about circuits.
 
Well, let us know how that goes. If I'm reading your graphs right it is indeed a bit different than what you started with whereby you got, or tried to, get double volts and amps with two supplies. Your first diagram I recognize as straight up series, at least by figures, where your volts go up but current does not top the output of either supply.

The second one I guess is a method to do both series and parallel albeit with four supplies. So now is this an experiment or is that how you could go with four?

Anyways... here is an article for people wanting to go series.
http://www.pureoc.com/eXtremeCPUOC_3.asp
 
texuspete00 said:
Well, let us know how that goes. If I'm reading your graphs right it is indeed a bit different than what you started with whereby you got, or tried to, get double volts and amps with two supplies.

http://www.pureoc.com/eXtremeCPUOC_3.asp
Click to expand...

I'm currently running the series configuration above. Originally I was using Radioshack 12VDC 1.75A PSUs just for a proof of concept.

The Series and Parallel power configurations came to mind as a low cost solution for TEC. Given someone has access to several old unwanted computers & old AT PSUs

Yes originally my logic with doubling the current was wrong... it was that late night logic on a school night. you know how it goes.
 
I emailed Meanwell and asked them about reccomended hardware for TEC.

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 6:48 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: PSU for TEC

Hi,
I'm interested in powering some TEC (thermal electric cooling) units.

What AC to DC units do you offer which produce 25VDC above 20Amps (more is better) ?
Thanks,
Fore1337
Click to expand...

reply:

Hello Fore1337,

Thanks for the inquiry.

We have a couple of units to offer as follows that have a 24 volt output rating. These units can be adjust +/-10% with the user accessible Potentiometer, so you can adjust up to 25 volts.

1. SP-480-24
2. SP-500-24
3. PSP-500-24
4. PSP-600-25
5. SP-750-24

Attached are all of those data sheets.
Please advise if you need any additional information, along with where you are located.

Best regards,
Bruce Haug
Mean Well USA
Sales/Marketing Manager
44030 Fremont blvd.
Fremont, CA 94538
[email protected]
Phone: 510-683-8886
Click to expand...
 
Meanwhile, back on my post :p

If i wanted to run the NEW dominator pro (437w, check it out here
Would the Meanwell sp-750-24 be able to do it? If so, it sounds good to me :D

Also, if i wanted to run the Dominator on the Meanwell, could i run a swiftech mcw50-t or w/e their TEC GPU coolers are called on my Antec Truepower 420? or would i need another psu to power the dual pumps and the GPU cooler? thanks again for everyones input! :D
 
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