Help me zero in on mechanical keyboard (Canada)

S

Surly73

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
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Hi all:

I follow the [H] mechanical keyboard thread but it's pretty long and I could miss/forget something. I've also read the referenced Overclocking.net article series on mechanical keyboards.

I think I'm ready for a good mech keyboard and want to put one on my Christmas list since no one knows what to get me anyways. My considerations:

- mechanical (duh)
- I think I want Cherry browns. Lots of typing, some gaming, want tactile feedback but don't like/want IBM model M clacky-clacky
- I think Topre is too rich for my blood and I've never even been able to touch one to see if it's worth it
- I like the MS ergo layout but the keyboards have been getting worse and worse. I don't have medical problems like RSI so will probably just return to standard layout
- I want 103/104 key. Media, calculator and other specialty keys are nice but not essential. Mini board not desired.
- Must have inverted-T cursor layout (I think they all do)
- One thing that cheeses me off is keys not pressing/registering if you don't press exactly straight down. I think all of the mech boards address this
- I want durable keycaps. My MS ergo 4000 really let me down in this regard with the markings wearing off quickly. The overclock.net article suggests something other than printed keys but I know even at that there are some decent printed keys.
- I don't need backlit. It might be cool but I have not seen any must-have backlight boards. I'd prefer something adult looking and not gamerz dudez - red/orange instead of blue - that sort of thing.
- I prefer black
- I want labeled keys, not blank. That means white or grey markings on the black keyboard.
- I intend to use USB for desk logistics but want NKRO via PS2 available
- Must be able to be obtained at reasonable cost in Canada without crazy border fees or evil shipping companies (like UPS)

I think that rules out all of the Steelseries and gamer stuff based on Cherry blacks. Topre is out for cost. Deck is out due to small layouts only. Kinesis is pretty specialized and pricey. I might end up with no one but me being able to type on it.

Does that leave me with only the Das Keyboard Professional Model S Silent and Filco Majestouch Tactile Touch NKRO? The DAS is mech, cherry brown, black in colour, has key labels, key printing is laser etched, 6KRO USB/NKRO PS2 and available at NCIX in Canada? The Filco I think I need to order from the US (elitekeyboards) and it has printed keys instead of Laser etched, and costs more money especially when factoring in higher delivery and customs fees. Is there anything other than the key printing that really differentiates Filco from Das?

Anything else I should look at? Should I look at a genuine Cherry keyboard? I don't even know where to start because they have so many options and I don't know of an e-tailer catering to the daunting task of an end consumer shopping through Cherry's full lineup?

Any advice?
 
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I've been mulling the same choice over for several weeks now, Cherry browns with NKRO, Das vs Filco. The biggest downside of the Das is the glossy finish of the body, but it does come with a polishing cloth to help with that. As sleek as the Filco boards are, you can price match the Das at Netlink with their sister/daughter company DirectCanada for $112.49cdn. The Filco you'd be looking at $135usd plus shipping/duty/exchange/rape. The price of the Das and the laser etched keys are really leaning me towards it, besides being the only one readily available in Canada (with Cherry browns, SteelSeries uses Cherry blacks).
 
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Wow thanks for that reply, I had no idea Das sold their keyboards through netlink.

If the Razer Black Widow (also MX blues) doesn't come through, I'll be getting this.
 
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Some updates:

- I originally thought I definitely wanted a full 104 with numpad - I'm seriously thinking about the tenkeyless models. At work I'm pretty sure I'd miss a numpad but I'm not so sure about home.

- I originally equated MX blues with IBM Model M. I can't guarantee that the IBM keyboards I used are model Ms but they were on original XTs, ATs and 3151 RS232 terminals. After looking at http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6300 (in particular the MP3 captures at the end) it doesn't sound like blues are anywhere near as harsh as the IBMs.

That puts Blues potentially back on the list instead of just browns. Google wasn't able to find me a review of MX browns with sound samples. Does anyone know of one? Particularly one that compares blue and brown in the same context?

If I put blue back on the list I think that opens up more vendors/models as well.

Some reading I've done seems to put the Filco ahead of the Das in terms of qualitative build factors. Despite having the potentially inferior key printing the Filco tends to leave people with a higher subjective feeling of quality. I don't know if the Das S is much different in build than the Das III but it seems like some reviews put Das S similar to Filco but the Das III well behind Filco. Das S vs. Das III reviews don't state that there was a huge jump in quality though, they just mention the transposition issue being fixed. Not sure what to make of that.
 
RabidRat said:
Wow thanks for that reply, I had no idea Das sold their keyboards through netlink.

If the Razer Black Widow (also MX blues) doesn't come through, I'll be getting this.
Click to expand...

Netlink Computers is NC*X, but the name is blocked here for some reason. Just fyi so you can find them.

Surly, check out this article at GeekHack, full sound testing of major boards (with a Logitech mouse click to calibrate your volume). Two of the boards are tenkeyless Filco's with blues and browns, which takes differences in plate resonance out of the equation for comparison of the switches. Do spend some time over at GeekHack, I've learned so much in the last while by lurking there.
 
RickyJ said:
Netlink Computers is NC*X, but the name is blocked here for some reason. Just fyi so you can find them.

Surly, check out this article at GeekHack, full sound testing of major boards (with a Logitech mouse click to calibrate your volume). Two of the boards are tenkeyless Filco's with blues and browns, which takes differences in plate resonance out of the equation for comparison of the switches. Do spend some time over at GeekHack, I've learned so much in the last while by lurking there.
Click to expand...

Haha yeah I actually typed NC*X originally, but it changed to ++++ when I submitted the post. So I had to go back and edit it to Netlink like you did :p.
 
My post also said NC*X - I didn't notice the censorship.

RickyJ - thanks for the link to all the keyboard samples. Now based on that recording setup, the blues DO sound about the same as the IBM M, just a different pitch. If only I had decent retailers in my area that might actually carry something decent you can touch before buying....

Another comment on the samples - I notice a lot of key bottoming sound on all of the Filco samples. This interferes a bit with trying to pick out the switch sound. On the other hand the Topre sample is nearly silent. Topre users talk about re-learning to type without bottoming the keys and getting really fast. If the authour of the page types only on his Topre without bottoming out it could be a little misleading.

Anyways, great info.
 
Surly73 said:
That puts Blues potentially back on the list instead of just browns. Google wasn't able to find me a review of MX browns with sound samples. Does anyone know of one? Particularly one that compares blue and brown in the same context?
Click to expand...

Check out the video on this page. I own or have owned 3 of the keyboards featured in that video, and it's fairly accurate. Does a pretty good job of letting you compare the sounds of different switch types.
 
Another data point. I recalled reading that Kinesis boards use Cherry browns and that one of my co-workers has a 1997 model Kinesis. I paid him a visit and we pried off a keycap. Sure enough - browns.

So, other than the Kinesis layout I'm not used to it was a chance for me to type on browns without simply buying them on faith.

Granted the board is 13 years old and well broken in, I noticed a couple of things:

- I didn't feel any tactile bump.
- The keys bottom out and clack very easy. On all of the recordings I've seen, this bottoming out clacking is louder than the contribution from the switch it would seem. (with Topres not doing this)
- I felt there was very little key effort required, extremely light weight. Not necessarily a bad thing I guess, but not the way I remember the classic clacky IBMs. Unfortunately I took some clacky IBMs from 3151 terminals to an electronics recycler earlier this year so I don't have any in the house any more now that I'm interested in clacking around on them.

I want a board optimized for fast, accurate typing more than gaming, but I'm starting to wonder if I don't need cherry blacks to get higher key resistance, or whether I'll just start typing different if I get browns. I have a tiny keyboard from a mobile data terminal (think police cars) which is probably from the late 80s early 90s. It's made by Cherry and they switches are black, but don't have + shaped posts like the Cherry MX blacks I've seen pictures of. It's a little noisy and has a weird layout but I use it for builds and I'm crazy fast on it.

Anyone else think browns are really lightweight and not really tactile at all? Or was this Kinesis worn out?
 
Did anyone take advantage of the grand opening sale at MemoryExpress on Saturday?

The Steelseries 6Gv2 was on sale at $75, down from $100. Not bad at all; too bad I'm looking for tactile switches =/.
 
I think it's Deck that has boards with Cherry Clears, little bit more force than blues and more of a bump (no click). There's ways of quietening Cherry switches, one way is dental bands from braces.
 
Is there much interest in mechanical keyboards? I've been reading up on them and it seems they are a niche. I want to try one just like the OP, but getting them from Elite Keyboards across the border seems to kill us with duty.

Just seems like there's no selection here in Canada :(
 
takt said:
Is there much interest in mechanical keyboards? I've been reading up on them and it seems they are a niche. I want to try one just like the OP, but getting them from Elite Keyboards across the border seems to kill us with duty.

Just seems like there's no selection here in Canada :(
Click to expand...

There was a lot of interest generated from this thread, with lots of people taking the plunge into the word of mechanical boards. Most responses ranged from happy to blown away. :)
 
browns are tactile, and the force required to activate is realy low, probably as low as a membrane (i had no issues adjusting from a ms ergo 4k to my custom ergo 4k w/ brown cherries). That 13 year old kinesis... yea i mean come on, the fact that it was a kinesis means it prolly had lots of use cuz well they were made for typing and probably was used a lot (as opposed to ppl finding brown cherries on terminals that barely got any use cuz they were terminals).
 
takt said:
Is there much interest in mechanical keyboards? I've been reading up on them and it seems they are a niche. I want to try one just like the OP, but getting them from Elite Keyboards across the border seems to kill us with duty.

Just seems like there's no selection here in Canada :(
Click to expand...

I used to use a G15v2 before taking the plunge on a Filco w/ Cherry Blues then a Filco tenkeyless w/ Cherry Browns. The Filcos spoiled me, now I hate typing on mushy membrane keyboards.
 
Cabbs said:
I used to use a G15v2 before taking the plunge on a Filco w/ Cherry Blues then a Filco tenkeyless w/ Cherry Browns. The Filcos spoiled me, now I hate typing on mushy membrane keyboards.
Click to expand...

Which do you prefer more? Blues or Browns? I know it's a personal preference thing. I just like things to be quiet. I remember typing on those old IBM mechanical keyboards in school and the sound in that room drove me nuts.

Also where did you buy your keyboard? Did you get by without paying lots of duty?
 
For me I find a lot of bargain boards have higher key effort required than on this Kinesis with browns. On the other hand, the old IBM clackeys (probably much worse than blues) didn't really appeal to me. I will be doing gaming on this keyboard, but I'm not buying a "gaming keyboard".
 
I'm using an older keyboard at work with original Alps complicated white switches (about 65 cN or grams), and while I'm not a fan of the clicking the heavier actuation helps to keep me from bottoming out the keys (barely touching now, still learning). I've got some lighter Alps blue switches I could swap in and try, since I'd like to try something a bit lighter than it is now (though I'm quite used to it now and it doesn't bug me).
 
RickyJ said:
I think it's Deck that has boards with Cherry Clears, little bit more force than blues and more of a bump (no click). There's ways of quietening Cherry switches, one way is dental bands from braces.
Click to expand...

I browsed briefly around Deck. They specified the MX1A-C1NW switch. Browsing Cherry's spec page at http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm I see that they are listed as "Standard force, soft tactile, PCB mount" The only higher force I see on the Cherry page is "MX1A-21NW Higher force, linear, PCB mount"

These sound like brown and black, respectively. The Deck page says "clear" but I see no reference to "clear" in the Cherry spec pages and the part number quoted by Deck seems to match browns.

Any more pointers?

What's this mod? I assume it's placing orthodontic elastics around the necks of the keys somewhere. I can't see this working with all types of keycaps. Any links showing what exactly you're referring to?
 
I've looked at that Cherry page before, and they don't list the brown switch there, just the clear (at the bottom of the page they have descriptions for the switches, including key stem colour). They also don't list the red linear switch which is used in some of their own keyboards in Asia. Brown switch is G-code, red is L-code, they just don't have them on that page.

Link to mod on GeekHack.
 
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RickyJ said:
I've looked at that Cherry page before, and they don't list the brown switch there, just the clear (at the bottom of the page they have descriptions for the switches, including key stem colour). They also don't list the red linear switch which is used in some of their own keyboards in Asia. Brown switch is G-code, red is L-code, they just don't have them on that page.

Link to mod on GeekHack.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's kind of how I thought it would work. I'm not sure if all brands will have keycaps with a circular post underneath that's well suited to O-rings/elastics. Thanks for the pointer.

I listened to the before/after and it does get rid of the Cherry "crack" nicely.
 
Just about every board with Cherry switches has round posts, haven't seen any without. Elastics will fit around anything though, lol.
 
RickyJ said:
Just about every board with Cherry switches has round posts, haven't seen any without. Elastics will fit around anything though, lol.
Click to expand...

Well, yes :) But not every single keycap design may have the post area bottom out before some of the cap itself strikes the plate I imagine.

It's certainly something to keep in mind.

About the only non-mechanical I have on my short list is the Logitech illuminated, I believe. It's short stroke laptop style and test-driving in a store I seem pretty quick and accurate. It looks good on the desk too.
 
If you're looking at a low profile keyboard, check out the MS Digital Media 3000. It's not scissor keys or illuminated like that Logitech, but it is properly curved for typing and it's fairly tactile for a membrane keyboard, and it's only ~$30cdn. I bought mine ~2 years ago for home, and instantly couldn't stand any other membrane keyboard I came into contact with, so I made my work buy me one for my office. Sure it's "only" pad-printed keys, but after several engineering reports and many many games, the only sign of wear is the spacebar is getting a tad smooth where my right thumb hits it. It can also take a spilled drink, though the drains will flood your desk, and after a tear-down and cleaning it works 100%.

I was hoping that my month with an old Alps clicky board I rebuilt would make me hate my MS board as much as the MS board made me hate all other membrane boards, but alas it has not. :(

As for key silencing, I've been experimenting with my Alps board at work. I have some leftover 2mm thick flexible foam sheets (craft foam) from another project, and compared putting foam around the key switch stem to putting it around the entire switch for the key rim to bottom out on. Hard to compare to a Cherry switch board that I don't have, but putting the foam on the metal plate of my Alps board has much better results than around the stem. Keys go down a bit further to activate the electrical portion of the switch, whereas I had to modify the switch leaf inside the switch to activate sooner with the foam around the stem (resulted in a firmer key, I want less force). I've got another bare switch mounting plate from another Alps board, I was going to use it as a stencil to cut out a foam pad for the whole board, the only thing extra I'd have to do is make room for the long key stabilizers.
 
I know nothing of the innards of keyboards, but I was never crazy about the 4000 series MS keyboard I was using; on a whim I decided to try an Adesso ergonomic (I love the split layout for ease of typing and lower mis-keying). It was and still may be available through Dell Canada; very reasonable at about $50, and so, so much better than MS or Logitech boards. In feel it reminds me more of the high-end terminal keyboards from IBM that we had at school in the late eighties, although I don't know if it is truly a mechanical keyboard. Seems to be holding up well after 6 months of use. I just wish the letters were etched or lasered on rather than glued on but overall the look is very good.
 
42 days until Christmas and the Filco/Das Cherry Browns are all sold out.

I'd make up your mind quickly.
 
I used this very well thought out & written guide to help me decide. Ended up with the Steelseries 7g. Love it so far....
 
I'm in the same boat. I can't justify the cost of the Filco with its flaw of fast-wearing keys, and I'm getting tired of having to mod so many things I buy. Every keyboard seems to have one major problem: glossy finish(!?), unconventional layout, quality issues...
 
The glossy bezel of my Das Keyboard is kind of annoying, but not a dealbreaker because build quality is solid and the Cherry Blues are very satisfying to type on. I also love my Filco with Cherry Brown switches, and haven't had any signs of wear yet. The Topre Realforce is creamy and buttery smooth and in a league of its own. Haven't tried a Deck as I don't really need a backlit keyboard, but I'd like to one day. I wouldn't mind trying the Steelseries 6Gv2 but the unconventional layout is a bit off-putting...

They might all have minor flaws, but they are so much better than regular keyboards, I wouldn't get too hung up on it. Get the Filco with blank keycaps and you won't have to worry about the key inscriptions wearing off! ;)
 
The letters on a Filco don't generally wear off - just get shiny.

Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything?

Metal sandblasted keys.
5169637412_b4216b51dc_z.jpg


Otherwise just get a keyboard and fuggedaboutit.
 
It's actually the feel of the key caps as they become shiny that might bother me. That's really disappointing for a premium keyboard.

I don't understand the trend of glossy black finishes on products that are either intended for touching/handling or are likely to come into contact with humanity. The product will potentially look like crap with normal use.

You mean I just have to POLISH my keyboard!?

I already have a large Intuos 4 tablet that I treat like royal crystal with its partially glossy surface and (apparently) fast-wearing cheap plastic palm rest. I protect the writing surface and palm rest with a sheet of vellum, which actually feels better to draw on. Otherwise I would probably have to wear silk gloves, hehe. The black rubber grip on the pen is a dust/nano-particle highlighter for which I have canned air on 24/7 standby.

My grey/acrylic Intuos 3 looked great with only occasional (reasonable) cleaning.

So yeah, I'd like a keyboard with materials that are reasonably touch-resistant.

Or at least provide free silk gloves. And a dainty hat.

Now I gotta go wrestle a bear to reclaim my manhood.
 
Well, geekhack has got me. Augh.... I'm now pulling the keycaps off of any keyboards I find laying around and I'm building a "collection" for some reason. I think it'll take me a little while to settle on anything specific. Of note:

- model M at work for now, another in a bin at home. Going to bolt mod both of them to try to reduce pingy-ness

- 2x Keytronic 360x - Very tactile, Topre Realforce-ish inexpensive rubber domes that are actually pretty fun to type on

- Logitech Illuminated w/ PerfectStroke - liked it OK but it failed W+SHIFT+SPACE KRO so I got rid of it. Talk about stupid...

- Apple Extended Keyboard II with ivory dampened ALPS - thinking about fooling around with it

- Filco Tenkeyless with Cherry MX browns - less than one week old and getting used to it. A fair bit of bottom-out noise from the keycap that can carry oddly through the house

- Topre Realforce 103UB 55g - in the mail from a geekhacker so that I can try the Realforce experience without buying new. If I like it, I may look for variable weight and/or tenkeyless instead - we'll see.

I'm doomed...
 
Surly73 said:
Well, geekhack has got me. Augh.... I'm now pulling the keycaps off of any keyboards I find laying around and I'm building a "collection" for some reason. I think it'll take me a little while to settle on anything specific. Of note:

- model M at work for now, another in a bin at home. Going to bolt mod both of them to try to reduce pingy-ness

- 2x Keytronic 360x - Very tactile, Topre Realforce-ish inexpensive rubber domes that are actually pretty fun to type on

- Logitech Illuminated w/ PerfectStroke - liked it OK but it failed W+SHIFT+SPACE KRO so I got rid of it. Talk about stupid...

- Apple Extended Keyboard II with ivory dampened ALPS - thinking about fooling around with it

- Filco Tenkeyless with Cherry MX browns - less than one week old and getting used to it. A fair bit of bottom-out noise from the keycap that can carry oddly through the house

- Topre Realforce 103UB 55g - in the mail from a geekhacker so that I can try the Realforce experience without buying new. If I like it, I may look for variable weight and/or tenkeyless instead - we'll see.

I'm doomed...
Click to expand...

There will be a big difference between the topre and the cherry browns...

IMO the topre are very overrated. Great boards, solid construction, but the switches are nothing to write home about. It really does feel like a souped up rubber dome. I sold mine off after a few months.

Once you get accustomed to browns, they are the best IMO.
 
pwrusr said:
Bolt mod IBM Model M???

Splan lucy! ;)
Click to expand...

http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/repair_model_m.html
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6615


Adreneline said:
There will be a big difference between the topre and the cherry browns...

IMO the topre are very overrated. Great boards, solid construction, but the switches are nothing to write home about. It really does feel like a souped up rubber dome. I sold mine off after a few months.

Once you get accustomed to browns, they are the best IMO.
Click to expand...

I'm presently having some potential noise issues in the home environment. The bottoming "clack" carries in strange ways. In the first 30 minutes I had the keyboard my wife said "I don't know about that keyboard, honey!" with a stern face. Apparently in an unconnected room through 6" studded walls it sounded like I was crinkling a pop can while she was trying to watch TV. I actually thought that I adapted to the keys OK and wasn't really bottoming out that hard. I was surprised to get the negative feedback already.

I'm told Topres are quiet and "thocky", I want to give them a whirl anyways. I might not keep the first Topre I buy instead opting for a different layout or variable force.

By the way, was your Topre fixed force or variable force?
 
I tried both.

Get the topres if what you want is a quiet switch though.

They are far from the best switch though.
 
Surly73, thanks for the explanation looks like a mod to try out on a rainy day! :D

I love my IBM Model M keyboard. too bad some of my coworkers hate them. Noisy yeah, but the people on the other end of the phone know you're working on the problem (working helpdesk) as soon as they hear the KB start rockin' away :D
Tactile feedback is the best I've personally felt.

I'm really interested in trying out a cherry based KB though.
 
Adreneline said:
I tried both.

Get the topres if what you want is a quiet switch though.

They are far from the best switch though.
Click to expand...

It's so subjective I'll need to try it for myself. From all of the descriptions it might make a great "home" switch for me. We'll see.
 
Surly73 said:
I'm doomed...
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention:

- Wyse terminal keyboard with Cherry MX black and doubleshot keys

- 2x Cherry ML4100 industrial mini keyboards with Cherry ML switches

- Some surprisingly good old rubber domes from Honeywell and NMB

- A used point-of-sale board I'm thinking of buying to try Cherry MX clears, which I think will be very well suited to my usage style.

Like I said: doomed
 
OK, now I'm typing on my new-to-me Topre Realforce 103UB 55g. I don't see how, in any way, someone could start using this and say it feels just like any other rubber dome, even at first. Granted I presume that this one is already broken in... To me the touch of the Realforce switch seems pretty unique.

- despite the "heavy" 55g weighting the keys are very easy to press. It's early in the evaluation, but I "feel" that I will end up wanting a variable weight board.

- absolutely no binding or dragging from off-axis key press. Probably the best I've ever felt in that regard

- the best way I can describe the key action is that it has "inertia" beyond the action of the springs and domes. My Filco w/browns has a completely different feel like pressing straight on a spring.

- far more tactility than Cherry browns. There's a distinct pop in the key travel even at high speed.

- it's very quiet. Not as quiet as a laptop or Logitech Perfectstroke, but the quietest full size, full stroke keyboard I've ever used.

- the keys have a soft landing but without any mush like some cheapo Dell quietkeys and other junky rubber domes I've used. There is a distinct bottoming out, but it makes very little NOISE despite being solid.

- thocky, not clicky or clacky

- the black-on-grey colour scheme is indeed too dark to read in my home office. It's still light outside and I have a lamp on in here and it looks like a blank board except for the lavender WASD. That being said, I haven't had any problems typing most things.

- heavy and top notch build quality in all aspect, just like you would expect for the price.

I don't dislike my browns but, to me, the Realforce is indeed something different and special.
 
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