Hidden shipping costs/return to sender; refund?

Status
Not open for further replies.
H

headless

Gawd
Joined
Sep 24, 2004
Messages
567
Hello all,

Here's the scenario:

Buyer is in USA, Seller is in canada.

Buyer purchases a monitor and agrees to pay shipping cost.
Buyer requests a final quote for the total cost of the item PLUS shipping cost, so that the total amount can be sent.
Buyer receives a quote of $289.83 USD for total cost of shipping and the item itself, of that cost, around 230 was the item; shipping with insurance cost 59.83 USD.
Buyer pays the requested total.

After the item is shipped, the Buyer is contacted by the Seller indicating that Fedex has contacted the Seller and wants at least 40$ more, and as much as 100$+ more (they will not give an exact number) to deliver the package to the Buyer.

The Seller contacts the Buyer and tells them that the BUYER needs to contact Fedex and arrange payment for shipping.

The Buyer looks at this new total and notices that the original quote was off by up to 30% of more of the value of the item.

Agreed upon price was 289; actual price is now going to be a minimum of 330 and as much as 380+. Keep in mind that this monitor is only worth about 380USD in NEW condition, and the item is not new (it's a refurb).

The Buyer informs Fedex that they will not be paying any further shipping fees, as they already paid to have the item shipped. The item is returned to Seller by Fedex.

The Buyer requests a refund for the amount he paid, but agrees to eat any pay-pal fees that might have been assessed during the transfer of money.
The Seller then refunds only 230$ of the 289$ that the Buyer paid.


Question: Do you think the Seller should be refunding the total cost? Or do you think that the Buyer should be responsible for the entire shipping cost, even though he was provided with a 'total cost' quote that was inaccurate for the item? Or perhaps, should the lost shipping cost (if the shipping cost was lost) be split between the two parties?
 
If the item was never received and he did pay shipping then got a later quote from Fedex then he should at least give you half of the shipping costs back.
 
Estimating the shipping costs is the SELLER'S problem. You paid for an item that you never recieved. You are due back your FULL expense.
 
The best outcome would be for the buyer and seller to split the additional charges.....this would be at the buyers discretion of course , since the terms have obviously changed since the original deal was made...but its too late for that now anyway....


That being said, IMHO, the buyer is not responsible for any additional charges once a deal has been made and would be due a full refund if the deal was not able to be completed due to a seller mistake.....
 
I'm not going to provide an opinion on what I think should happen, but one tip.. Fedex/UPS/etc.. are usually a very bad option for Canada/US shipments for this exact reason. If you use Canada Post (their USPS), odds are you'll get your item with no additional fees assessed. CP usually doesn't take much longer, and you can insure it for whatever you need to just like you can in the US.
 
Oldie said:
I'm not going to provide an opinion on what I think should happen, but one tip.. Fedex/UPS/etc.. are usually a very bad option for Canada/US shipments for this exact reason. If you use Canada Post (their USPS), odds are you'll get your item with no additional fees assessed. CP usually doesn't take much longer, and you can insure it for whatever you need to just like you can in the US.
Click to expand...

The main thing I was looking for was a trackable shipment so that there would be no question of delivery from paypal if there was a problem. Lesson learned, I suppose. I did some research after this entire problem occured, and noticed noticed that it's not guaranteed that you will not have fees even if you send it through canada post - it's just MORE LIKELY that you won't. This is the kind of thing that I would never have known, seeing as how I don't live in canada and as a result don't ship anything from canada to anywhere else :(
 
Yeah, there's no guarantee of no fees, but I've bought a few things from CA (a Wii earlier this year), and never had to pay any duties/fees outside of whatever the initial shipping cost is. Any time you ship international, it's a really good idea to do some research first.
 
Oldie said:
Yeah, there's no guarantee of no fees, but I've bought a few things from CA (a Wii earlier this year), and never had to pay any duties/fees outside of whatever the initial shipping cost is. Any time you ship international, it's a really good idea to do some research first.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I wish the shipper had done so; it would have allowed me to up-front refuse to buy the item from him if he could have articulated that there would be 60$ shipping PLUS up to another 150$ on top of that. :(
 
Just file the paypal dispute. Seller can't show that the item was delivered. You'll get it.
 
headless said:
... The Buyer requests a refund for the amount he paid, but agrees to eat any pay-pal fees that might have been assessed during the transfer of money.
The Seller then refunds only 230$ of the 289$ that the Buyer paid. ...
Click to expand...

If refunded properly, paypal assesses no fees, AFAIK. You must use the REFUND link, though, and not simply "send money" for the same amount. So, the buyer should receive a full refund of $289.xx.
 
I am the seller in question.

I held to my end of the deal. I did not force him to buy the monitor I did not force him to return the monitor. I quoted him exactly what I paid in shipping fees.

The issue here is brokerage and customs. Again the buyer requested I ship via Fedex ground and therefore it is the buyers responsibility to know and take care of any brokerage fees and duty once the package is over the border. He did not and had the monitor sent back to me. Fedex only contacted me because I did not have a number for the buyer on the shipping label.

If I was a store it wouldn't be any different. The buyer is responsible for brokerage and duty. I expect this when ordering things from the states.

Also the monitor was NIB I only took it out to test it. It was a replacement from NCIX's dead pixel warranty.

I have refunded what the buyer paid me less the shipping costs that he already agreed to. This is exactly what any store I know of would have done. Please note the package was already about to cross the border when buyer decided to have it returned.

EDIT: Regardless of the above, shipping is never refunded. Ever. I have yet to see an online store refund shipping.
 
And this is why I don't ship to Canada...

Sorry canucks... too much of a hassle...
 
That certainly changes things. There is a big difference between shipping fees and taxes.

I think Bun is 100% right here knowing the whole story.
 
bigddybn said:
That certainly changes things. There is a big difference between shipping fees and taxes.

I think Bun is 100% right here knowing the whole story.
Click to expand...

Thank you.

Honestly the only weird thing is that Fedex wanted to contact him before it crossed the border. I have never had that happen, usually it ends up on my door step with a bill attached to it. Buyer should be thankful he wasnt stuck with it after the fact with no recourse.
 
If the buyer requested FedEx than the buyer should have eaten any additional fees imposed by FedEx (not the seller). There have been countless posts here and on other trading forums that cross-border FedEx/UPS shipping will incur brokerage fees. It is a common policy that any taxes/duties/fees from cross-border trades are the responsibility of the buyer unless it has been agreed otherwise.

For a 100th time - if shipping outside of the US, avoid couriers (FedEx, UPS, etc.) - they will rip you off on brokerage fees, UNLESS you have your own customs broker. FedEx gives you the option to designate your own broker.
 
I am a fedex courier,

in this situation, to pay the custom and brokerage fees are responsibility of buyer unless othewise verbally agreed. Even we do it in fedex unless shipper marks the section on the airway bill.

Since the buyer did his end and send the item he did the right thing in my opinion.

But if the seller said he will pay the custom fees and etc, this is different scenerio.

i always ship to canada, but the catch is, if you declare an invoice over $50CAD($40usd) it is subject to custom fees and etc.

The brokerage is free service of fedex, but it should be the Tax that canada custom charges to buyer.
 
Redleader said:
Full refund is due since the buyer never received anything.
Click to expand...

That's not quite the case here, because the buyer decided to return the monitor. When you buy from Newegg, or Amazon, or virtually any other store, you're responsible for the return expenses. Since the buyer requested FedEx, they should be responsible for any fees imposed by FedEx (which fees, by the way, are NOT disclosed when you get a shipping rate quote). I don't see why the seller should eat the shipping amount.
 
You might be a FedEx courier, but you have no clue. A tiny part of the customs brokerage fee charged by FedEx is tax and duty, everything else is a "service" fee for the FedEx services of moving your package through customs. Besides, with NAFTA and all, very few categories of goods are subject to duty anyway. Please don't provide misleading information. The brokerage is NOT a free service of FedEx!

We once shipped a conference poster (1lb weight, customs value: $0) to Canada and FedEx wanted $55 brokerage fee. Our company told them to go forth and multiply as the university we shipped it to in Montreal had their own broker which handled the paperwork.


TurK-FX said:
I am a fedex courier,

in this situation, to pay the custom and brokerage fees are responsibility of buyer unless othewise verbally agreed. Even we do it in fedex unless shipper marks the section on the airway bill.

Since the buyer did his end and send the item he did the right thing in my opinion.

But if the seller said he will pay the custom fees and etc, this is different scenerio.

i always ship to canada, but the catch is, if you declare an invoice over $50CAD($40usd) it is subject to custom fees and etc.

The brokerage is free service of fedex, but it should be the Tax that canada custom charges to buyer.
Click to expand...
 
Thank you guys for supporting me. I don't believe I should eat any of the shipping costs as I did everything in my power to get the monitor to him as quick as possible and with his preferences (also repacked it according to his requests). I am really strapped for cash which is the only reason I am selling it in the first place.

However he is threatening a paypal dispute which would really suck as I do not have the money to refund the rest as it has been used to ship the monitor to him.

EDIT: I also want to add the buyer decided to return the item without inquiring with me first. He contacted fedex about brokerage and decided on his own to return it before making any arrangement about refunds with me.
 
Last edited:
last 3 months i shipped at least 20-30 item internationally thru fedex, to mostly France and england some to canada and australia.

I declared at least $100 to up to $400 and i never paid any brookerage fee. And dont tell me because i am a fedex courier. the catch is i use fedex express since i get %75 employee discount.

And read this part ->

Also, shipping via Air and express, and some other methods instead of ground or standard can eliminate brokerage fees, because they are built in to the price(thats one of the reasons this shipping method is more expensive) Be sure to read online or phone the shipping company ahead of time to verify incase you have any concerns.
Click to expand...

My fault is i didnt mention that i am fedex express courier since ground and express is completely different. But it is not nice to call me clueless since i took 2 months training before i started and just trying to help here.

fornax said:
You might be a FedEx courier, but you have no clue. A tiny part of the customs brokerage fee charged by FedEx is tax and duty, everything else is a "service" fee for the FedEx services of moving your package through customs. Besides, with NAFTA and all, very few categories of goods are subject to duty anyway. Please don't provide misleading information. The brokerage is NOT a free service of FedEx!

We once shipped a conference poster (1lb weight, customs value: $0) to Canada and FedEx wanted $55 brokerage fee. Our company told them to go forth and multiply as the university we shipped it to in Montreal had their own broker which handled the paperwork.
Click to expand...
 
Blazestorm said:
And this is why I don't ship to Canada...

Sorry canucks... too much of a hassle...
Click to expand...

Same as I. For the seller it's a loose/loose situation shipping out of state. To bypass some of the duties many buyers request you mark it as gift or lower value. Problem with that is if the item gets lost or damaged, your out of pocket. If you insure the legit amount for insurance, the buyer is shocked by the duties and refuses to pay in some cases.

This could have been a first with the buyer as well, but I think at minimum and good gesture on both parts, is to refund the amount and split the cost of shipping fees. You have no control over duty fees and he should have been equally responsible for this surprise as much as you worst case.

As some people already mentioned, the cost of duties is the responsibilty of the buyer. I don't even think you can pay these upfront even if you wanted.
 
Last edited:
I just went back on that... sold something smallish to Canada and he paid shipping...

Just gotta hope there are no issues... Honestly I haven't had any the few times I've shipped to Canada but it's threads like these which make me paranoid.
 
lgestle said:
Same as I. For the seller it's a loose/loose situation shipping out of state. To bypass some of the duties many buyers request you mark it as gift or lower value. Problem with that is if the item gets lost or damaged, your out of pocket. If you insure the legit amount for insurance, the buyer is shocked by the duties and refuses to pay in some cases.

This could have been a first with the buyer as well, but I think at minimum and good gesture on both parts, is to refund the amount and split the cost of shipping fees. You have no control over duty fees and he should have been equally responsible for this surprise as much as you worst case.

As some people already mentioned, the cost of duties is the responsibilty of the buyer. I don't even think you can pay these upfront even if you wanted.
Click to expand...

No it is not possible to pay this upfront only once it gets to customs.

And why should I eat any costs for putting up a monitor for sale when I am in need of cash? Buyer is responsible therefor it is his own fault it was a surprise if it was. I don't have any money to pay anything and I have returned everything he gave me less what I had to pay to ship it to him. As I said it was HIS decision to have fedex return it. Not mine.

Honestly if you did this to a store (especially without discussing with them FIRST about returning it) they would charge a restocking fee and would not refund the shipping. It is not their responsibility unless they explicitly state that they have there own broker and/or a deal with the shipping companies. I know knuconeptz.com does this and they ship over the border UPS without any fees whatsoever.

And no this is not a first time over the border for me I have made many transactions on forums and on ebay for various computer, camera, and car audio electronics (and NEVER have I thought as a buyer that I wasn't responsible for brokerage and duty and NEVER did I expect shipping to be refunded in case of a return). However I will be double stating this to everyone I sell to from now on.
 
Last edited:
Comparing this to a company that sells internationally is rediculous; a company who makes a business of selling to US customers from Canada would have given me a full and honest appraisal of the costs involved in delivering the product to me, and they would have either told me up front or had a page dedicated to informing buyers of international shipping costs and return policies. After this fiasco, I have done many searches for terms relating to international commerce, and have found some of just those pages - in all cases, companies who ship internationally indicate up front to their customers if they expect their items to incur import courier fees and/or taxes.

What you have done amounts to a bait+switch tactic. If you were fully aware it would be 40-150$ more than the price you quoted me to have the package delivered, as you have written above, then you were fully aware that the monitor was not worth near that and that I would not be willing to pay that amount for the monitor - yet you continued with the transaction and intentionally withheld this information.

Furthermore, you indicated in your communications to me that you COULD give me a total including shipping, and in fact did just that! I've been in a situation with a sale before where I mis-quoted shipping to someone, and I lost money on the deal because of it - but I ate the cost because it was my responsibility as a seller to indicate to the buyer what the cost of the item including shipping would be. In this case, I believe that you were hoping i would simply roll over and accept the cost, thinking it was 'too late' by the time I was informed of the new pricing, but I am not willing to pay 350$+ for a refurbished monitor that is not worth more than 230-240. I was already accomodating to you and offered to pay the cost of shipping, PLUS the cost of ANY packaging you needed, which had already pushed my cost beyond what it would cost to buy that monitor in refurbished condition from a large retailer, because you indicated that you needed the money. All I requested was a simple total price including shipping so that I could send you the amount and conclude our deal.

In return, you quoted me an inaccurate price that you knew was not the total i would be paying and hid your existing knowledge of international shipping costs that you indicate you are aware of from me in an attempt to make a quick buck. That is dispicable sir, and even given this obvious dishonesty, I was willing to split the lost cost of shipping.
 
Last edited:
1. Don't buy / sell international if you dont want to deal with extra fees.

2. Its not the sellers problem if there are duty fees / extra taxes charged, the seller needs to agree to pay them before hand - which it looks like he did.

3. Since the buyer didnt hold up his end of the deal and the seller got the product back I'd say refund just the purchase price, NOT the shipping since the buyer decided midway through this to bail out. Why should the seller eat $50 shipping it to the <person> that then refuses it? Sorry, but thats rude and an inconvenience to the seller and the reason I stopped using eBay entirely. If thats how you go about buying something stick with e-tailers - they will not refund shipping and you will pay 15% restock. Don't make selling things on the internet such an ordeal for the rest of us.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I dont know of any company that does not have the buyer pay for shipping and hanlding fees (which includes shipping and packaging costs as well as an additional cost just cause which I only quoted and charged you exactly what I paid fedex to ship the item).

I dont know of any company that would quote brokerage and duty like you are saying. Customs is responsible for that and the buyer is responsible for paying said brokerage and duty. There is no way any compnay or I could know how much brokerage and duty is going to be nor is it our responsibility to.

I did NOT intentionally withhold any information from you. Brokerage and Duty is a fact of cross border shipping and as a buyer I am aware of this and do not expect any seller to hand hold me through the process. As the buyer you are responsible for learning what is involved in the process. You requested I ship fedex therefore it is your responsiblity to understand the implications of that decision. I gave you all of the information availible to me at the time. And how does it benefit me to withhold this information? It is not like I make any additional money off of it. I still only get the original price we agreed upon because the rest I paid to ship the item to you. Which I have tracking proving I did indeed ship it.

Again it was not a refurb it was a NIB direct from NCIX's inventory replaced on their express monitor warranty (for dead pixels and what not).
 
I think that all of the useful community feedback here has been given, so this thread is being closed.

To the best of my knowledge, no forum rules were violated; and there's no evidence of intentional trolling, so the involved parties will need to work this out between themselves. If there's any change of circumstance and you feel this thread should be reopened, please notify a moderator.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top