High-tech Cars Pose Trouble for Some Mechanics

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One of the downsides to owning newer high-tech cars is that you almost always have to take it to the dealership because regular mechanics don’t have what it takes to fix them. Something is seriously wrong when you need a $1,000 tool to turn off a “check tire pressure” after rotating your tires.

Access to repair information is at the heart of a debate over a congressional bill called the Right to Repair Act. Supporters of the proposal say automakers are trying to monopolize the parts and repair industry by only sharing crucial tools and data with their dealership shops. The bill, which has been sent to the House Committee on Energy and Commerce, would require automakers to provide all information to diagnose and service vehicles.
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I can see it now....enacting a bill that requires a federally certified "key" to unlock the hood of your car. You know that way its more guaranteed that only qualified individuals mess with equipment that can affect emissions. We can't just have normal citizens walking around destroying this world.

*Disclaimer: I am an avid car enthusiasts and do all my own work....just spent the last 12 hours working on my car actually.
 
Many new vehicles come equipped with multiple computers controlling everything from the brakes to steering wheel, and automakers hold the key to diagnosing a vehicle's problem. In many instances, replacing a part requires reprogramming the computers — a difficult task without the software codes or diagrams of the vehicle's electrical wires.
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One of the 3 computers failed on my old warhorse, a 1999 Malibu, and my local mechanic could not fix it because they could not D/L the data to program the replacement module. They told me I had to take it the Chevy dealer. The dealer couldn't fix the car, because GM no longer made the part, and the dealer refused to buy a re-manufactured part. The book value of the car was only a few thousand, but damn it, it was paid for.
 
qdemn7 said:
One of the 3 computers failed on my old warhorse, a 1999 Malibu, and my local mechanic could not fix it because they could not D/L the data to program the replacement module. They told me I had to take it the Chevy dealer. The dealer couldn't fix the car, because GM no longer made the part, and the dealer refused to buy a re-manufactured part. The book value of the car was only a few thousand, but damn it, it was paid for.
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Wow. I dont even know what to say to that. Being that I'll be going to school soon to become a mechanic this topic is of much interest to me. I agree with the bill.
 
I wonder, will the bill mandate that they give away the specialized parts as well as the codes?
 
Not to mention for the average joe tech to fix new cars these days they require thousands of dollars of their personal money for scanners, computers and software. If a hybrid comes in one day, you better clear your schedule.
 
even with all the information available, repair shops may need specific programs or computers to access the vehicle's, meaning they may still need to turn down some customers because a new system came out that noone is yet prepared for. the bill should also call for more standardized hardware/programming to be used in the newer on-board computer systems that are now being developed to control more functions of the vehicle.

being able to access the car's computer systems through a standard diagnostic tool or pc would be much easier and cost effective than needing different diagnosis tools for separate systems. I don't remember the specific year this was done, but OBD3 is currently the standard system in-use today for the main on-board computer systems. all other systems SHOULD be tied into the main system (to a degree) and the only reason for not doing so is to create a monopoly on the market for repair service.

now this is only my opinion, but all software for on-board diagnostics of civilian vehicles should be free to all repair shops.
 
uclajd said:
I wonder, will the bill mandate that they give away the specialized parts as well as the codes?
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I don't think there is an issue ordering parts from the same manufacturers the dealerships get them from.
 
Also included with this bill is the open access to key codes for Fobs and key cutting machines. The police associations are really opposed to this bill due to that. Not to mention the flood of grey market parts will really hurt most of the car companies financially. Try so hard to get them all out of financial trouble only to pass this and give every chinese car part making company the ability to make exact replicas of any car's parts and sell them for a pittance so the OEM business dies? No way I say.
 
financial trouble for the big company is one thing, but when you're talking about screwing small business and the consumer to try to bail them out, I can't agree.

any market should be competitive because of the quality of the products and services, not because of the ability to bar others from providing similar products and services. that's the only way true advances are made and price fixing is stopped.

I can agree that any company importing cars should be required to release the same information though.
 
i really hope that bill goes through. serviceability is a HUGE concern for me when i buy a car as i do all my own work. if under the hood is cramped to hell and back, i dont buy it.

as far as service information goes i wonder if this will include repair manuals? might hurt chiltons/haynes a bit but that doesn't bother me much as most of their manuals are crap anyhow.
 
I work as a tech at a dealership, and trust me you dont want the average idiot working on the cars. Giving people access to the tools does no good if you dont understand how to use the tools. One fool that wasnt trained correctly can cost 1,000's of dollars in damage just cause he didnt pay attention.

I know dealers arent cheap but that is beacuase the techs are highly trained, not just anybody off the street that has a pulse. I have worked in this trade as a Dodge tech for over 10 years, and these cars are a electrical nightmare, also a networking nightmare. I have the highest training and I have had these cars frustrate me, always manage to fix em tho.

The aftermarket guy trying to fix this car without the training. I seriously doubt he could fix it. Knowledge is key here, not the tools. Just my thoughts tho.
 
Maybe someone with more legal expertise can chime in here, but I'm confused why we would need a bill. How is the Auto makers behavior any different than Microsoft's behavior when the FED filed Anti-Competitive charges against them?

This seems like the Auto makers are monopolizing the repair industry... Do we need another bill to say "don't do that?"
 
theres going to have to be a line drawn at some point.. of what is serviceable by dealers only and parts that anyone can work on. it pretty much already is that way, and this bill would only further distinguish whats what so im all for it. the days of cars being totally fixable are gone, its up to the manufacturers now to either provide the long-term service on the specialized electronics or sell the cars at disposable prices (like kia).
 
Leon_Solitario said:
even with all the information available, repair shops may need specific programs or computers to access the vehicle's, meaning they may still need to turn down some customers because a new system came out that noone is yet prepared for. the bill should also call for more standardized hardware/programming to be used in the newer on-board computer systems that are now being developed to control more functions of the vehicle.

being able to access the car's computer systems through a standard diagnostic tool or pc would be much easier and cost effective than needing different diagnosis tools for separate systems. I don't remember the specific year this was done, but OBD3 is currently the standard system in-use today for the main on-board computer systems. all other systems SHOULD be tied into the main system (to a degree) and the only reason for not doing so is to create a monopoly on the market for repair service.

now this is only my opinion, but all software for on-board diagnostics of civilian vehicles should be free to all repair shops.
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Its still OBDII, no OBD3 that I've heard of. Most modern vehicles systems are connected by way of the OBDII DLC by way of CAN BUS but not all systems may be connected by a Twisted Pair.

As nice as the Bill makes it sound by giving info out, they pretty much already do but the problem is cost. I have an $8000 dollar scanner just for MOST Euro vehicles systems. This only scans certain systems like ECM, ABS, BCM, SRS some CCM but generally leaves out systems like Seat Modules, Window modules and other non-essential systems.

One thing OBDII does, is requirer a system of codes, faults and monitors to be used by all US vehicles for proper Emissions Failure Diagnosis. Thats it. The little Check Engine Light is programmed to illuminate when emissions are determined to be 1.5 times the Federal limit for that year. OBDII is the mandate, any other system info is not required by law.

Now you have to take the bad with the good if you want ALL info and tools shared with independents. I've worked in the Dealer Circuit and still deal with some and the truth is, MOST dealers have some techs who should change air in tires and you want them with access to software flashing utilities. I've witnessed a DA in a Dealer who even attended some factory classes, blow up a battery he left on a HIGH charge while flashing updated Throttle Software. Voltages went way high and the CEM locked up. If anyone has ever tried to Flash a Motherboard and something goes wrong at the wrong time it ends up bricking the board, well it also works that way in flash programming car modules. So not only was the Central Electronic Module bricked, that battery exploded spraying sulfuric acid all over his face and the customers car and engine compartment. The tech had to buy a battery and a $800 module +software.

Truth is there are so many different manufactures and systems that even with the tools available, doesn't mean the indy tech will understand any of it or know of the right precautions to take without factory training or instruction and even some people that have the training still F**K S**T up.

I haven't had any problems getting any info I need as long as I'm willing to pay for it, which means the customer pays for it. Tomorrow I have a Mercedes S600 V12 5.5L Twin Turbo 493HP vehicle waiting for a $1266.00 coil pack for cyl 7,8,9,10,11,12. Most of those types of owners wouldn't think of letting just anyone touch their exotic vehicle, let alone some "tech" from a chain just because he has some info now.

To the guy who had the Malibu with three dead brains, sounds like they blew you off. It happens quite often when repairs will likely exceed the value of the car and they aren't really sure their guess will fix it (thats why they said three modules were fried. Only time I've seen that many modules fried was a flood car or a fire) Them not being able to Flash the Computers was half true, they just didn't want to outlay the coin for the equipment as its available. And Dealers won't generally put used parts on any vehicle thats a customer car, liability is too high with questionable parts. They will however toss all sorts of used parts on their own used cars for sale. And your friendly neighborhood used car lot, mainly sell cars of VERY Questionable background. Just last week I had two Mercedes S500 bought from a used lot, one with the Main SRS. Wiring harness (Supplemental Restraint System, Air Bags and Safety System) all cut and spliced together. Resistance values all out of whack for the seat belt squibs and caused the SRS light to come on. Bad thing was harnesses were hacked so badly, new seatbelt tensioners could not be attached until the entire $2400 harness is replaced. The second S500 had been a flood car and had all sorts of water contamination issues with ABS sensors, tail light circuit card corrosion and a AC compressor filled with water. I'm glad I actually FIX these vehicles.
 
I restored an '86 Porshe 944 from eBay and can't tell you the number of "Porsche Special Tool #xxxx" that are 'required' to swap and rebuild an engine. Turns out, few of them are affordable. Also, few of them can't be replicated with a little engineering and creativity.
 
bbvdd2 said:
Now you have to take the bad with the good if you want ALL info and tools shared with independents. I've worked in the Dealer Circuit and still deal with some and the truth is, MOST dealers have some techs who should change air in tires and you want them with access to software flashing utilities. I've witnessed a DA in a Dealer who even attended some factory classes, blow up a battery he left on a HIGH charge while flashing updated Throttle Software. Voltages went way high and the CEM locked up. If anyone has ever tried to Flash a Motherboard and something goes wrong at the wrong time it ends up bricking the board, well it also works that way in flash programming car modules. So not only was the Central Electronic Module bricked, that battery exploded spraying sulfuric acid all over his face and the customers car and engine compartment. The tech had to buy a battery and a $800 module +software.

Truth is there are so many different manufactures and systems that even with the tools available, doesn't mean the indy tech will understand any of it or know of the right precautions to take without factory training or instruction and even some people that have the training still F**K S**T up.
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The problem is the software and electronics in a car are getting way too complex. Why does a Luxury car need over 10 times the amount of code as a 787? :eek:http://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/advanced-cars/this-car-runs-on-code
I think if the automotive industry can simplify and standardize these systems, it would lead to cheaper development and much cheaper repairs.
 
bbvdd2 said:
Its still OBDII,.........................................................FIX these vehicles.
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This is THE MAIN reason why I HATE modern cars. To damn complicated for what it is.
You need a computer to run everything in the car from the engine to the windows.
Ex. I have an old 98 Audi A4. The locks stops working and turns out all the locks are actuated with a single vacuum pump. Seriously? That to me is as dumb as shit.
I see now why hot rods and old cars (pre 80s) are popular to rebuild and mess around with.
 
"Coke doesn't give away the recipe for Coke," said Charlie Territo, a spokesman for the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers. "What this bill seeks to get is the recipe for Coke."
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Stupid spokeman. It's more like letting the customer know how to open the can vs buying a special tool to open the can to drink.
 
Gideon said:
I work as a tech at a dealership, and trust me you dont want the average idiot working on the cars. Giving people access to the tools does no good if you dont understand how to use the tools. One fool that wasnt trained correctly can cost 1,000's of dollars in damage just cause he didnt pay attention.

I know dealers arent cheap but that is beacuase the techs are highly trained, not just anybody off the street that has a pulse. I have worked in this trade as a Dodge tech for over 10 years, and these cars are a electrical nightmare, also a networking nightmare. I have the highest training and I have had these cars frustrate me, always manage to fix em tho.

The aftermarket guy trying to fix this car without the training. I seriously doubt he could fix it. Knowledge is key here, not the tools. Just my thoughts tho.
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I'm glad that you're one of the techs that actually has a clue. I know of a number of independent shops that regularly get sent cars FROM the dealer because the techs have neither the experience or the education to work on them. I know of a suspension shop that did all the Hummer suspension work in the Phoenix area and another shop that handled all the fuel injection repairs for most of the Ford dealers in the area.

I'm for the bill. It's going to cost what it costs to get the training and tools but if you want to make the investment you shouldn't be barred from it. The whole proprietary argument is bogus. Otherwise you wouldn't have companies like Jet, Bully Dog, Superchips etc providing reprogrammers that DON'T violate the warranty. What the automakers are doing on their dealer's behalf is protect the most profitable part of any dealership which is the service department.

It's just like the dealerships trying to tell you what brand of oil and air filter to put in your car or they'll void the warranty for no other reason but the brand. It's the whole reason the Magnuson Moss act came about.

I have on 08 Mustang GT and as long as it's under warranty I service it at a Ford Dealer but after that whomever has the experience, reputation and best price gets my business period!
 
the-one1 said:
Soon you'll need an i7 system to just start the car.
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Funny thing is, most automotive electronics are roughly equivalent to a 486.

The reason all the electronics are there has a lot to do with emissions requirements and increasing power levels from newer models. You're still dealing with an internal combustion engine that is by it's very nature "dirty" in operation. To get it to fit within emissions and economy requirements it takes ever more precise control of timing, fuel delivery and systems measurement. All that data has to be processed and acted on in thousanths of a second and would be impossible to accomplish by mechanical means.

In reality it's lipstick on a pig but it's a pig that's had enough plastic surgery to look like a porn star.

Still I'm not ever going to buy a total electric but I'm kind of hoping for synthetic gasoline.

:cool:
 
siliconnerd said:
The problem is the software and electronics in a car are getting way too complex. Why does a Luxury car need over 10 times the amount of code as a 787? :eek:http://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/advanced-cars/this-car-runs-on-code
I think if the automotive industry can simplify and standardize these systems, it would lead to cheaper development and much cheaper repairs.
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787 doesn't need to meet emmissions standards, gets inspected. Before every use and is grounded if anything goes wrong. The average consumer doesn't know what grade oil to buy where washer solvent goes or what size engine they have. On top of the codes aid in diag especially if your working on some rich bitches hybrid that's the equivalent of a downed power line in voltage.

There is this huge misconception that dealers get tools and training for free. I'll let you in on a secret. Gm charges the dealer fees for training whether we take it or not, and has mandatory tools we have to have. The tools show up the dealer gets a bill for em. Sorry mom and pops cant meet the standards unless they pay out of pocket like the dealerships do.There are those out there that do and I respect em for it. It's a hard industry to stay cutting edge in I applaud your efforts.
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Gideon said:
I work as a tech at a dealership, and trust me you dont want the average idiot working on the cars. Giving people access to the tools does no good if you dont understand how to use the tools. One fool that wasnt trained correctly can cost 1,000's of dollars in damage just cause he didnt pay attention.

I know dealers arent cheap but that is beacuase the techs are highly trained, not just anybody off the street that has a pulse. I have worked in this trade as a Dodge tech for over 10 years, and these cars are a electrical nightmare, also a networking nightmare. I have the highest training and I have had these cars frustrate me, always manage to fix em tho.

The aftermarket guy trying to fix this car without the training. I seriously doubt he could fix it. Knowledge is key here, not the tools. Just my thoughts tho.
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This. My brother is a Master GM Technician. He gets tons of training every year. After seeing all that he goes through to remain up to date, I always take my cars to a dealership. My current car has push button start. My brother showed me the details on that. What an electrical nightmare. Some of the cars check over 150 things when you push the buttons before the car will start. Combine that with things like stability control, radios that adjust volume and such according to speed, in dash nav systems that interact with feedback from the car, etc...

I think that it should be anyone should be able to do maintenance work. But when it comes to diagnosing a problem, especially electrical, even if the bill passes the independent shops are screwed.

Anyone who buys a modern car is really taking a huge gamble if they don't get a warranty on it. My 2010 car had a problem with the indicator for the advanced key staying red after I did a remote start. It took them 2 weeks to figure it out. There were so many interconnected systems (all the checks the push button checks + all the extra things the remote start checks before running) that they ended up just ordering all of the parts and just replacing them one by one until the problem was fixed. That isn't something a small repair shop has the luxury of doing. Its like having a computer that doesn't boot. Sometimes to diagnose it you have to swap the CPU, mobo, and ram one at a time to find the problem. But you need to have parts that are compatible with your system laying around to test.
 
Well I work in a parts manufacturer and had to work with data entry on electronic returns for built in Blue Tooth modules for using cell phones in cars. The dealerships have very specific instructions on how to fix issues. The problem is the Dealers have a 40% markup on parts along with outragous labor costs, but instead of flashing the device they would simply replace it. This was a $350 module for most models, so instead of a 45 minute flash they would do a 30 minute swap... a bit less labor, but about $150 proffit on the model.

The problem was the dealerships are required to follow those instructions and attempt to flash it first. This was still covered under warranty and we were responsible. The manufacturer tried to bill back millians of dollars back to us to cover the work... which happens sometimes. We tried to bargain them down as this was a fixable issue and say we would simply pay for the flash cost on all the models that they never attempted to flash. They said no so we had to go through all the record so instead we turned out only paying for the ones that said they did diagnostics or the flash failed... which was maybe 5% and they had to pay for all the rest because they failed to follow their own proccedures.

So getting back to the toppic. Car places care little about this. They make more money just replacing stuff and calling it good. They can do this faster and it makes them more money. The problem is the manufacturers do little to nothing to stop this... even on the cars under warrenty. Passing laws so the dealers can propperly diagnos and fix cars cheaper is not what the repair shops want. They will keep doing the same thing. It is all a waste of time.
 
Todd_a said:
Well I work in a parts manufacturer and had to work with data entry on electronic returns for built in Blue Tooth modules for using cell phones in cars. The dealerships have very specific instructions on how to fix issues. The problem is the Dealers have a 40% markup on parts along with outragous labor costs, but instead of flashing the device they would simply replace it. This was a $350 module for most models, so instead of a 45 minute flash they would do a 30 minute swap... a bit less labor, but about $150 proffit on the model.

The problem was the dealerships are required to follow those instructions and attempt to flash it first. This was still covered under warranty and we were responsible. The manufacturer tried to bill back millians of dollars back to us to cover the work... which happens sometimes. We tried to bargain them down as this was a fixable issue and say we would simply pay for the flash cost on all the models that they never attempted to flash. They said no so we had to go through all the record so instead we turned out only paying for the ones that said they did diagnostics or the flash failed... which was maybe 5% and they had to pay for all the rest because they failed to follow their own proccedures.
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Work for Motorola?
 
WTF.

It already is... has been for DECADES... Federal law that the manufacturers MUST make the technical service manual for the vehicle available.

As with many things in the last decade, federal laws seem to have just vanished. Left unenforced by the regulatory bodies tasked with enforcing them. From the volume of ads on TV blasting, to the Nuremberg accords requiring war crminals be prosecuted. Laws in place seem to be disregarded like a speed limit sign.

When I bought my Corvette, I bought the service manual (the real one, that Chiltons, etc use to take only portions of to make thier sort of books you buy at the auto parts store.) it was $99. With it, I was able to do all maintainence myself... for 16 years and 265K miles.

The current car, a 1998 Volvo...well, Volvo (and now Ford) simply refuse to release the manuals. Blatently violating federal law. So my choice is sue or buy one of the bootleg copies of "VADIS" that are floating around the intrawebnets.

Cars are not rocket science, but the car companies are having such a hard time making $$ that they need to use arbitrary bullshit and proprietary sillyness to keep the service end of the business to themselves. Violating laws on the books tat already require them to make the information available to 3rd party's.

Corporate lawlessness spreads like the flu.

So, Congress needs to pass a new law, just to say "Hey, we need you to obey that previous law, and this time, we really mean it."

I think it should go alot further, requiring open standards, like linux/GPL/Sourceforge for the cars equipment.

99% of all proprietary "special" tools are just a deliberate bullshit attempt to get YOU the consumer to bend over and take it up the ass. There is ZERO justification for it on technical grounds. A wrench is a wrench.... but if I can make you have to buy a $500 wrench to get the alternator off the framastan, why not. Maybe you'll just bring it into my dealership to do it and save the $500.

Same bullshit has been going on for DECADES, enough. When you buy a car, make them include the technical service manual along with the "undercoating". If they refuse, find another car to buy.

Not to mention, alot of the manufacturers are using LINUX derivatives for the computer programming, so technically they'd be in violation of the GPL if they don't make the source code available.

I know Westinghouse is facing possible suit over this concept for thier TVs. The uints used linux, and they have refused to A) support with firmware updates and B) provide the source code so users can maintain thier own units. Where this is happening with cars, the GPL lawyers should be cracking down. :eek::rolleyes::p
 
We need an open-source car. A car created by the people, for the people. LOL :D

No seriously. While it's true what some ppl in here are saying, the amount of training they go through at their stealerships, eh hem, place of work, but it's the exclusivity that's leading this all in to a slippery slope where the end result is, consumers lose. I just but new car and the stealership was trying their hardest to sell me on their extended warranty bullshit. Her repeated punchline was, if one of your computers blows, that's 2 thousand dollars right there and pays for itself! Git the fuck outta my face. It shouldn't be two thousand dollars to replace an ECM chip in the first place!

My last car was an 04 mustang and I modified the shit out of it (regretfully so in retrospect as most car tuners do eventually). My car didn't have ABS, so what did I do? Get the ABS module, geared axles, wiring, with a buddy of mine from a doner car and added ABS. It only took forever because we don't have a lift or all the right tools. But really it's FAR simpler than dealers like to make it out to be. And what do they do when when your joe-blow's car has an ABS system failure, they rape him up the ass for it with exorbitant markups and unnecessary costs.

What they need to do is keep working on public mass transit so it isn't so inconvenient to use. Soon enough we'll be so over populated anyways, driving cars will only be for the super rich. Will your kids's kid be getting the keys to their own car at 16 like the traditional american dream depicted in movies? Probably not in our future.
 
Gideon said:
I work as a tech at a dealership, and trust me you dont want the average idiot working on the cars. Giving people access to the tools does no good if you dont understand how to use the tools. One fool that wasnt trained correctly can cost 1,000's of dollars in damage just cause he didnt pay attention.

I know dealers arent cheap but that is beacuase the techs are highly trained, not just anybody off the street that has a pulse. I have worked in this trade as a Dodge tech for over 10 years, and these cars are a electrical nightmare, also a networking nightmare. I have the highest training and I have had these cars frustrate me, always manage to fix em tho.

The aftermarket guy trying to fix this car without the training. I seriously doubt he could fix it. Knowledge is key here, not the tools. Just my thoughts tho.
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While I understand what it is you are trying to say about shade tree mechanics, I am disagree about service techs. I used to work as a tech for one of the big three and most of the techs there came from either local high schools that had an autoshop class, from a tech school, or learned on the job. They were no more specially trained than most shade tree mechanics.

There are some dealerships that do send their techs away for Dealer specific training, but from what I have witnessed at the shops I have worked for this is not the case. Porsche sends tech to either Atlanta or Germany before they are allowed on the tech floor. I can not swear for any others.

Now for the bill. On its face, it seems to be a good idea. But this has the ability to make cars easier to steal because key fob codes are being shared on an open market, I think this is a bad idea. If the parts market is flooded with Chinese made parts, its a toss up due to a free market.
 
brom42 said:
This. My brother is a Master GM Technician. He gets tons of training every year. After seeing all that he goes through to remain up to date, I always take my cars to a dealership. My current car has push button start. My brother showed me the details on that. What an electrical nightmare. Some of the cars check over 150 things when you push the buttons before the car will start. Combine that with things like stability control, radios that adjust volume and such according to speed, in dash nav systems that interact with feedback from the car, etc...

I think that it should be anyone should be able to do maintenance work. But when it comes to diagnosing a problem, especially electrical, even if the bill passes the independent shops are screwed.

Anyone who buys a modern car is really taking a huge gamble if they don't get a warranty on it. My 2010 car had a problem with the indicator for the advanced key staying red after I did a remote start. It took them 2 weeks to figure it out. There were so many interconnected systems (all the checks the push button checks + all the extra things the remote start checks before running) that they ended up just ordering all of the parts and just replacing them one by one until the problem was fixed. That isn't something a small repair shop has the luxury of doing. Its like having a computer that doesn't boot. Sometimes to diagnose it you have to swap the CPU, mobo, and ram one at a time to find the problem. But you need to have parts that are compatible with your system laying around to test.
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So wait... after all that praising on dealer techs you're telling me it took them two weeks to fix an issue BY REPLACING 1/2 of your car's electronics? This, if anything else, shows how clueless these people really are. If the information was openly accessible to everyone (what the bill tries to accomplish, other shops would be properly prepared to actually diagnose and fix the problem properly.
 
A few friends have since hit it big since high school, and every single one of them bought a high-end car that cost upwards of god knows how much. Full of proprietary electronics, electronically assisted steering, gear changing, accelerating, the whole awful shabang. A few years later, they're all driving real cars again :)
 
Gideon said:
I know dealers arent cheap but that is beacuase the techs are highly trained, not just anybody off the street that has a pulse.
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Youre kidding right? The vast majority of my(and most people I know) dealership experiences have been negative. The last time I had a repair issue, I took in a tire with a hole in it (slow leak). They couldn't find it they said. I took the truck home, took the tire off, put some soapy water on it, bam, theres the leak. Plugged it up, done. Not enough money in tire repair I guess.

I have worked in this trade as a Dodge tech for over 10 years, and these cars are a electrical nightmare, also a networking nightmare. I have the highest training and I have had these cars frustrate me, always manage to fix em tho.
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Which is fine, but they should give owners the option to do some of the work themselves. Youre not special, you just have access to materials we dont.

The aftermarket guy trying to fix this car without the training. I seriously doubt he could fix it. Knowledge is key here, not the tools. Just my thoughts tho.
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Make it available and let the consumer make their own choices. Some of us are smarter than you give us credit for. I do alot of side work doing aftermarket tuning for the GM crowd. Still, a great deal of things cant be done without a tech II which is HUGELY expensive, especially considering you need a yearly subscription to keep it up to date. Customer wants to bleed his own brakes or change calipers? Whoops, got some air in the ABS controller, ah, so sad. Wont come out unless you can use a tech II to cycle the ABS pump. $300 please for a 5 minute job. Customer had to take out a front seat to do some work on the car (stereo install?). Whoops, the Body control module just detected the seat belt wiring harness was disconnected, and now the air bag system is disabled. Cant even reset it by yanking the battery. Off to the dealer, another $300 charge for a 5 minute job with a Tech II. Its RAPE is what it is.

There are plenty of competent mechanics and enthusiasts out there that can handle this type of work (buy a scantool.net cable, and send the appropriate command the ABS or BCM computer) but its hidden secret arcane knowledge only the dealers are allowed to have, for the sole purpose of monopolizing repair work.

Sure MOST people have no desire to do this stuff themselves, but them a choice to go to besides some shady half-incompetent dealer. Monopolies are bad. Competition is good. Choices are good.
 
My dad's been a mechanic for a long time and says what's really sucking at the moment are the discount parts houses selling very crappy parts that undoubtedly fail way too soon (brand new or rebuilt). If you want a decent part, you have to go to the dealer. Add to that the costs of the computer equipment already discussed and it's not looking good for the consumer.

We definitely need a better business model and more pleasant laws to help car buyers. We're already shelling out way more money than many of us can afford on gas and the actual car. :rolleyes:

I guess it is an important transitional period anyway. Maybe as cars become more modular and everything in general becomes more smart, we'll find ourselves in a better situation.

To back up what brom42 has mentioned, over-complication and bad design really don't help mechanics diagnose every problem. Some computer reports are also extremely vague, so you end up having to replace tons of shit. It has little to do with experience or smarts and more to do with badly designed systems.

I'll add to the hilarity by mentioning a couple of things I've want to purchase for my Ford Escape. A button for the seatbelt that keeps the buckle from slipping down too far... $20 (for one). The coolant jug... $300, because the sensor at the bottom is broken and is giving my a false indication of coolant level. You can only buy the sensor by buying the entire jug.

I also recall the instrument cluster on my old S10 requiring new lights. They could only be bought from the dealer and I needed five of them. They had all blown out and I was using a flashlight to check my speeds at night. They were $20 each... so $100 for bulbs for my dash.

As if their car sales profit margins weren't enough.
 
bbvdd2 said:
To the guy who had the Malibu with three dead brains, sounds like they blew you off. It happens quite often when repairs will likely exceed the value of the car and they aren't really sure their guess will fix it (thats why they said three modules were fried. Only time I've seen that many modules fried was a flood car or a fire) Them not being able to Flash the Computers was half true, they just didn't want to outlay the coin for the equipment as its available. And Dealers won't generally put used parts on any vehicle thats a customer car, liability is too high with questionable parts. They will however toss all sorts of used parts on their own used cars for sale. And your friendly neighborhood used car lot, mainly sell cars of VERY Questionable background.
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At first it was only the Body Control Module and the key clinder that failed (anti-theft was preventing the car from staying running). The local mechanic could NOT download the data necessary to flash the re-manufactured BCM. Me thinks, just the type situation as desctribed in the orginal article i.e. GM does not want third parties working on the computers on these cars. The dealer said they could not communicate with ANY of the three boxes on the car. Said the BCM was definitely bad, but get this... the car would start AND run with the BCM disconnected. And it should not have been able to do that.

ECM was supposedly bad, but engine would run and get good mileage. EBCM was also bad, but anti-lock brakes worked. Then they proceed to ask me if the car had ever been underwater. I said to my knowledge it had not. I had run a Carfax and Autocheck reports before I bough the car years ago. They they showed me the exposed portion of a body member by the fuse block was covered in rust. So I'm still not sure what actually happened. I drove the car for 10 years and the only electrical problem I had was an alternator failed.

When I bought my new car (an Altima), I bought a 100k bumpber to bumper zero deductiable extended warranty. Got a lifetime powertrain warranty with only a $100 deductable. When the 100k point rolls around, I'll buy another car with another extended warranty.

I am not spending any more money fixing cars.
 
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