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See, a lot of PC-centric people are making all of these assumptions about the PS4. Go read a breakdown of the PS4's design. Extremetech has a good one.1. A lot of that GDDR5 bandwidth is being shared between the CPU and GPU. There's going to be less bandwidth for the GPU on the PS4. Is that enough to equal 72GB/s of the 7770?
2. The CPU in the PS4 sucks. Even more so if you consider it's using GDDR5 instead of DDR3. It's literally two glorified netbook cpu's glued together.it's true, the CPU is weak on per core performance. but PS4 games should be properly threaded as time goes on. and I'm assuming the API will allow for some Mantle-like relief on the CPU. That is an assumption, however. Anyway the point is that 1st party games will be designed with the CPU in mind and heavily threaded. So it will be a bit moot. With third party games, it may not fair so well. But, so far it's been pretty good! Even with the rushed 1st waves of games.
and the GDDR5 VS. DDR3 for CPU argument doesn't pan out. DDR3 has lower latency, yeah. But latency barely makes a difference even on an AMD FX or an i7. It's all about bandwidth nowadays. Which the PS4 has plenty of.
3. None of that matters cause we know a number of games that aren't doing 1080P. Like for example Battlefield 4. That game does barely 60 fps with 900p at medium to low settings on the PS4. A Radeon HD 7770 can do 1080p with low settings just fine, and even medium.
As I said earlier, I am pretty sure that BF4 is the only PS4 game right now that doesn't do 1080p. There could be 1 or two others. BF4 is pretty much the worst example to hold up as proof of any weakness the PS4 may or may not have. BF4 is universally a pile of code on all platforms. It was not optimized well for any platform. PS4 included. The PS4 version's code is so similar to the PC, that it shares nearly all of the same bugs/issues as the PC version. I wouldn't be surprised if PS4 development of BF4 was carried out primarily through Sony's internal DirectX API translation tool. even after all that, they still managed 1600x900 at "high" settings.
30fps at low settings, yeah.The AMD A10-7850K is a different story. It clearly can't do 1080P at 60 fps in Battlefield 4, but it'll do it at ~30fps. Which to me is very playable.
An A10-7850's core is going to surpass a 7870 core with 256-bit bus and the compute architecture of a 290x?But the point of the APU is that eventually it'll catch up to the graphics you see in the PS4, and then surpass it. Probably in a relatively short period of time. This isn't taking into account of things like Mantle, which could further boost the performance in Battlefield either.
We could argue about the paper specs all day long, but none of that matters. We need to see what the consoles can do, and they can't do 1080P 60FPS. If a $500 PC with a 7770 can, then a $500 PC already surpasses them. If not then throw an extra $100 top the graphics card and it'll obliterate them. Think of it as the cost of 1 year of Xbox Live.
A 7770 cannot do 60fps average in BF4 multiplayer on medium settings, Let alone High. Even with an i7 behind it. My 7870 on a Phenom II X6 with mixed settings, manages just under 60fps average on Siege of Shanghai at 1080p, using DirectX. mantle gave me over 25 extra fps on that average:
I finally bothered to calculate my average frame rates
Earlier I posted raw perfoverlay frame data (CSV files) for 13.12whql, 14.1 DX11 and 14.1 Mantle.
There are two sets of data. One set is for a test server lap which was kept as similar as possible for each.
video of what a lap looks like:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wgd3gr8fdlmn429/bf4testserverrunsamplea.mp4
The other set of data is for a roughly 6 minute play session, in 64 player Siege of Shanghai. (timed for no less than 6 minutes). I used a 24/7 Siege of Shanghai server so that I could ensure reliable testing of the same map on the same server. These multiplayer sessions also had AMD Performance Monitor dumping CPU core/s and GPU core utilization data. So the CPU load is slightly higher than what it normally would be. Which is fine, because many people are running overlays and/or monitoring software anyway.
Here are the average frame rates for the test server lap:
14.1 Mantle: 108
14.1 DX11: 103
13.12 DX11: 104
You can see here, the Test server probably doesn't stress CPU performance. As such, the average performance in framerate is basically the same. There are points at which Mantle performs better in the Test Server. But overall it is pretty much the same.
But it should be noted that Mantle still delivers much more consistant frametimes. Therefore the "feel" is smoother. (of course, ignoring the VRAM hitching).
-----------------------------------------------------------
Average frame rates for 64 player Siege of Shanghai, during 6 minutes of play:
14.1 Mantle: 85
14.1 DX11: 58
13.12 DX11: 54
Here is where we get HUGE gains. That speaks for itself. Even despite the fact that the Mantle run was hitching every few seconds, with occasional hard stops/several frame drops, it still turns in a much higher average number.
The hitching is likely related to the fact that Mantle uses a lot more VRAM, for the same settings, on my system. which I show in this post here:
http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1040596739&postcount=76
I have a 7870, so it is probably a bug with how Mantle is working on those cards/my system.
Ah, can't edit posts, good call.
Optical drives are super important if you care at all about having almost permanent copies of anything, or simply doing things the way they were meant to be done. That does matter.
1. A lot of that GDDR5 bandwidth is being shared between the CPU and GPU. There's going to be less bandwidth for the GPU on the PS4. Is that enough to equal 72GB/s of the 7770?
See, a lot of PC-centric people are making all of these assumptions about the PS4. Go read a breakdown of the PS4's design. Extremetech has a good one.
The PS4 was designed to maximize the unified memory. It has two separate buses that can reserve and address the RAM independently, as if it were dedicated. On top of that, they don't have to waste time communicating with eachother. In a normal PC. there are typically wait states and redundant data communicated between the GPU and CPU, because the ram is independent and they work interdependently of eachother, but have to share at some point.
The PS4 does away with this. The CPU and GPU can see what eachother is doing via a third bus, that allows them to "snoop" on eachother, without having to explicitly stop and trade data. (AMD's desktop APUs do this too.)
The GPU has it's own 256bit bus to the GDDR5 giving it the full 176Gigabytes per second. The CPU has it's own bus, giving it 20Gigabytes per second, which is comparable to a Phenom II.
You'd need an optical drive for games for the same reason you'd need an optical drive for anything else. Focusing solely on "gaming" is going a bit far anyway, even if gaming is literally all you do with it... a gaming rig is probably still gonna run Maya anyway.We're talking about a gaming machine. If you have a non-gaming need for such things, then you've already bought an optical drive and whatever else you need for that non-gaming function.
I have no idea what you could mean by "doing things the way they were meant to be done".
Well if that's gonna be the case then we should also include the price of an LCD TV in the price of the console
OS though is $90. Still for about $500 you can have a great machine.
You'd need an optical drive for games for the same reason you'd need an optical drive for anything else. Focusing solely on "gaming" is going a bit far anyway, even if gaming is literally all you do with it... a gaming rig is probably still gonna run Maya anyway.
You buy a disc, and you use that disc for the purpose it's intended, even if it's as simple as "install and store". If you decide to get into older games--reasonable no matter what PC you have--quite a few require the disc present for very real reasons. Focusing solely on "new gaming" is going a bit far as well, even if new gaming is literally all you do with it.
(Though, admitedly, if someone were to patch something like Civilization II so that it reads FLAC dumps of its CDDA, that'd be kinda neat.)
Only way id get into console gaming is if they legit allowed me to ise keyboard/mouse for the fps shooters. Until then and for many other reasons there is no sense in ditching my pcs. And my guest gaming pc only cost me 400-500$ and could match any console for gaming power plus all the extra capabilities...
Really? Please tell me the specs to it, I am curious to know how they're better than PS4.
If you don't already have a keyboard, mouse, and monitor then Windows 95 will sound very alien to you right now. Also, there's this thing called printers. It puts letters and imagines on paper, even in color! Cool, I know right? Also, monitor is completely optional as is game controller. If you have a HDMI connector on your HDTV, then that'll do. Got Xbox 360 and PS3 controllers? Those will work on PC as well, even as wireless. Just got any usb bluetooth adapter for PS3, or a Xbox 360 wireless gaming receiver. Both can get had for less then $15.
The OS is the only real cost that I exempt, for a reason. There's a lot of ways to get a copy of Windows cheap or even free. For example, maybe you're a college student, then you can get a discount. Another more deviant method is to grab that old broken PC you have lying around and reuse the license. Just call Microsoft and claim that you're replacing a motherboard or something. I think this is OK with Windows 8, where you maybe breaking the law with Windows 7? I'm not sure on this, and wouldn't know why this is against the law. Back in my day, you had a CD Key then it was your copy. Not this locked to motherboard nonsense.
If someone is building a brand new gaming computer, those items are needed. Homes already have a TV, they would not already have a Monitor, keyboard and mouse just lying around. Also, an OS is still needed to be purchased and a controller is needed as well. That device you showed is useless without the controller of course but I have one of those with the controller and they work great.
Look, I love computers but lets not use BS to compare a gaming computer with a console. I hate BS which is probably one of the reasons a lot of people just go with consoles instead of the "gaming PC".
No it's not about bandwidth. If that were the case we'd be using GDDR5 for desktop PCs instead of DDR3/4.and the GDDR5 VS. DDR3 for CPU argument doesn't pan out. DDR3 has lower latency, yeah. But latency barely makes a difference even on an AMD FX or an i7. It's all about bandwidth nowadays. Which the PS4 has plenty of.
That's making a lot of assumptions.As I said earlier, I am pretty sure that BF4 is the only PS4 game right now that doesn't do 1080p. There could be 1 or two others. BF4 is pretty much the worst example to hold up as proof of any weakness the PS4 may or may not have. BF4 is universally a pile of code on all platforms. It was not optimized well for any platform. PS4 included. The PS4 version's code is so similar to the PC, that it shares nearly all of the same bugs/issues as the PC version. I wouldn't be surprised if PS4 development of BF4 was carried out primarily through Sony's internal DirectX API translation tool. even after all that, they still managed 1600x900 at "high" settings.
Futuristically speaking. Nothing today can match the PS4, in terms of graphics. But when PCs move to DDR4 and future APU's gain in performance, we'll see it match and surpass the PS4. In the mean time your FM2+ motherboard will likely support these newer APU's.An A10-7850's core is going to surpass a 7870 core with 256-bit bus and the compute architecture of a 290x?
Depends on the settings. It can do 60 fps 1080P if you disable FXAA and use low or medium quality settings. MAX MAX settings, probably not. This is probably the best comparison with a 7770 vs PS4 in Battlefield 4. From what the article said, the PS4 doesn't do 60 fps in 900P. It was described more like 40-50FPS.A 7770 cannot do 60fps average in BF4 multiplayer on medium settings, Let alone High. Even with an i7 behind it. My 7870 on a Phenom II X6 with mixed settings, manages just under 60fps average on Siege of Shanghai at 1080p, using DirectX. mantle gave me over 25 extra fps on that average:
Only way id get into console gaming is if they legit allowed me to ise keyboard/mouse for the fps shooters. Until then and for many other reasons there is no sense in ditching my pcs. And my guest gaming pc only cost me 400-500$ and could match any console for gaming power plus all the extra capabilities...
I don't even really care that an Xbone can do a lot of the same things a PC can. Play movies, browse the internet, Skype, DLNA, whatever. What it comes down to, at least for me, is this: When I play Battlefield 4 on a PC, I never hear 11 year olds whining "You stowle mai hewicoptol." I never hear 22 year old thugs trying to rap over the mic. Yes, idiots exist in BF4 PC, no doubt, as do children. But it's not nearly on the same level as consoles. Because there's that price barrier and there's that technological barrier. Not saying building a PC is hard, but parents aren't building Jimmy Numbnuts a PC for his 12th birthday. So that's why I do it. That's why I deal with shitty Mantle beta drivers, updates, AV, hardware upgrades, Newegg e-blast emails, benchmark articles, temp monitoring, all that stuff. Because it's a fun hobby, and it keeps me out of the multiplayer console slums.
Seriously, go watch someone play multiplayer Ghosts in PS4 and just listen... to... the awfulness. My god.
So you want to cheat to get a leg up on the competition. You are just mad because the 12 year olds pwn you when you try to use a controller. Controllers don't suck, they are just different and you have to learn how to use them.
I'm kinda kicking around the idea of buying a PS4 actually. I just want to play games with my girlfriend on the couch. Don't want or need online capability, if I want to play other people I have a PC. And the PS4 is actually in stock on Amazon for MSRP now.
Honestly, I am not sure which is worse, the PC elites or the console snobs. Thankfully, I am finally mature enough to use what I like and spend MY money on what I want. That is, a gaming/ HTPC computer with an R9 290/ FX 8350. Also, I have an Xbox one and a 50 inch Sony LCD HDTV and everything from the computer and Xbox one looks great on it.
But, continue on well your stuff collects dust. After all, how can you guys be playing on them when you are here spouting your superiority?
This is a side note really, but there is very little reason to own an optical drive. I have one in my PC, which is 1.5 years old. I have never used it. Not once. My Asus Zenbook has no optical drive. It's never mattered.