How to get Companies to Stop using Starforce

S

Sgt Rock

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jul 1, 2004
Messages
190
I have written letters (e-mails) but I fear they are not making it to the right people. Does anyone have addresses for us to send petitions or comments to?

Or Maybe I am the only one that doesn't like 3rd party programs (drivers) messing with my system that I spend a lot of time tweaking and setting up just right. :mad:

Anyway I am sure a lot of you will read this and think that I am just overreacting and you maybe right but what is next after Starforce? A new type of rootkit? Where will it end. :confused:

Anyway any company that uses said protection will not get my hard earned dollar.

"Stepping off soap box" "Go about your buisness... Nothing to see hear" :)
 
Maybe if there wasn't such a pirating problem this issue would have never come up in the first place, no?
 
markt435 said:
Maybe if there wasn't such a pirating problem this issue would have never come up in the first place, no?
Click to expand...
Or the illusion that piracy is the cause of games not selling ;)

On a side note, CD keys alone kill majority of the incentive to pirate a game that would actually have any real interest in being pirated. The keys alone cut off anyone from trying to play online and escape the hell that is very poorly designed single player campaigns
 
Never said they weren't selling cuz of that. I do happen to agree tho that there is a definate lack of good games. Prolly why I haven't bought a game in the past 6 months...lol
 
I will grant that pirating was a problem back in the day where games were single player, and good. Until those days come back, CD keys are really all the protection needed. If a player who would actually play the game wanted to, they will buy the game to enjoy it instead of being limited to utter boredom(although this too overlooks games that have a single player focus like Doom 3, FEAR, and Quake 4... but the most recent game that I would say didn't suck was Deus Ex 1).
 
Yeah, just look at Blizzard's games. As far as I know they don't use any stupidly complex copy protection. Everyone buys their games to get the CD keys to be able to play on Battle.net even when their single player campaigns are excellent.

Quality of the Game > Copy Protection for deterring piracy.
 
My point exactly, that is why most (if not all) of Blizzards products sell very well. And I have no problems paying money for them. I wish other gaming ventures would learn from their example.

Neurofreeze said:
Yeah, just look at Blizzard's games. As far as I know they don't use any stupidly complex copy protection. Everyone buys their games to get the CD keys to be able to play on Battle.net even when their single player campaigns are excellent.
Click to expand...
 
Neurofreeze said:
Yeah, just look at Blizzard's games. As far as I know they don't use any stupidly complex copy protection. Everyone buys their games to get the CD keys to be able to play on Battle.net even when their single player campaigns are excellent.

Quality of the Game > Copy Protection for deterring piracy.
Click to expand...
Diablo 2 had some cutting edge protection I belive, but was once again twarted from being a hot topic by pirates cause all the pirates could do was play with themselves

EDIT: I suppose to contribute to the discussion at hand, I would have to say that there really is no way us as gamers could tell producers to shove this protection money up their asses. It will take the work of very expensive statisticians(they must be expensive so the producers will actually listen to them and not have wasted money) to show that first off protection measures are a waste in the first place because they can and are cracked, and secondly that the percentage of pirated vs legit copies of successful games are likely to be incredibly slim.(even with WoW, there are private servers that can be made(most likely pirated to boot), but I doubt that this population is no more than 2% of the total population present)
 
Every game has and will be cracked. CD dongles just rape the paying customer, drastically increasing the inconvenience needed to play the game.
 
Glad to see the {H} is taking a look at this "technology" as well as others. Hopefully they (Starforce) will die a quick painful death! :D
 
My system is built for games, and nothing else. Installing X3, my system becomes unbelieveably unstable. I am not going to pay for a product that makes something I work pretty dillegently at maintaining a wonky piece of shit. I'm voting with my dollars...a big fat NO to Ubisoft.
 
I will admit to having downloaded an old game before (effectively abandonware, but still illegal), just as I would admit to downloading some MP3s and TV shows (as most of us here have). Simply put, my download was not a lost sale and I'm willing to bet that more than 2/3 of downloaded games are not lost sales either, if not 90%. But that's beside the point. Blizzard and Valve have exactly the right ideas. While their games usually have great single player, I WANT TO PLAY ONLINE! lol. That defeats any purpose to pirating good games... playing online, on the official servers, with thousands of people.

How can I skip out on CS:S or Battle.net? A simple CD key without anything else extravagent, to play online, is all that companies should ever need. Remember the old days of LucasArts and Sierra, where you needed certain items from the manual? Sure you can't do that anymore with scanners everywhere and the internet, but maybe people should think of a similar concept. Now if they make crappy online modes, or crappy games in general and they don't sell, it's their fault anyway. They shouldn't need to install rootkits and starforce to mess with MY system that I worked so hard to keep running and stable 24/7. /end rant
 
Why dont people just sue them. It is basically malware and can be brought down the same road the sony root kit was.
 
for myself, im just not going to buy games protected by starforce.
 
This is no different than the lame excuses the MPAA makes every day when they talk about piracy hurting their box office numbers. BULL****. Crappy movies is what's hurting the industry. Make good movies that people want to see and guess what happens, they go to see the movies.
The piracy business on the gaming side is no different. We all spend our hard earned cash on games that half the time aren't worth the CD/DVD they were printed on. If that happens to you a couple of times, guess what, you're not going to want to buy titles.

[rant]Game review sites and rags are some help but still, who would have figured that BF2 would have as many bugs as it did? Who would have predicted that you NEED 2GB of RAM for smooth play at high res? Crap is released every day and because the bean counters are "in charge" at most places we see these "half-finished" releases that should be no more than betas let alone be gold products. Make games that are COMPLETE and don't need to be patched almost immediately after release and we'll talk about what "rights" the developers have. Until then, since we the consumers are getting the short end of the stick 9 out of 10 times, give me a break from starfoce, starcrap, or whatever other Sony clone copy protection junk you're trying to pull[/rant]
 
Weazmeister said:
This is no different than the lame excuses the MPAA makes every day when they talk about piracy hurting their box office numbers. BULL****. Crappy movies is what's hurting the industry. Make good movies that people want to see and guess what happens, they go to see the movies.
Click to expand...

Then again, who wants to go see a movie that cost 10$ for 1 ticket, so take a gf and thats 20, food is another 10~15$ easy!

I'd rather wait for it to release on DVD for and rent for $2.50 for 1 nite, and enjoy in the privacy of my own home which is more comfortable and no one else making noise
 
DermicSavage said:
Diablo 2 had some cutting edge protection I belive, but was once again twarted from being a hot topic by pirates cause all the pirates could do was play with themselves
Click to expand...


The game itself did not. The battle.net idea, and the lawsuits that followed, is where all the protection hype went. I remember playing some illegal single player for a while within a very short period after launch. I do own all the Diablo, Starcraft, and even WC3 games now.

A single email or complaint isn't going to do squat. If you want to get the word out, start advertising; sigs, room titles, etc. The more it pops up on the net, the more attention it gets.

EDIT:
I'm waiting for more attention and research, maybe someone who is more on the ball to run the website as well.
The site that currently is the "main" anti-starforce site claims XIII is protected, yet I don't have any of the drivers they warn about.
 
No question that home entertainment with higher definition TVs becoming more widely avaialble to, great surround sound, video on demand, the convenience of Netflix or services like, etc all hurt their bottom line HOWEVER the MPAA has been saying since they became "aware" of internet file sharing that it was hurting their sales figures at the box office. That's like the gaming industry looking that the Xbox 360 and PS3 and saying, "well, those won't have any effect on our 'casual PC gamer' sales." Why spend thousands of dollars as [H]ardcore gamers spend on their rigs when you can have a "turn key" solution for your gaming needs? My point is that piracy gets blamed for a lot of problems when in reality there are many more factors that the industry is always happy to ignore.
 
What exactly does Starforce do that is so bad? (I don't know anything about it)
 
Oh, my god.

I thought I was more careful about buying games that ahve Starforce. I just looked in my device manager for Starforce drivers....I have Starforce on my computer.

I need to get rid of it.

Is there a list of gmaes with this horrid program somewhere so that I can pay more close attention to it?
 
Moose777 said:
Oh, my god.

I thought I was more careful about buying games that ahve Starforce. I just looked in my device manager for Starforce drivers....I have Starforce on my computer.

I need to get rid of it.

Is there a list of gmaes with this horrid program somewhere so that I can pay more close attention to it?
Click to expand...

Yeah, here: http://www.glop.org/starforce/
But as I said, it lists XIII as infected, yet I have no Starforce drivers.

Released Starforce games

* 7 Sins
* Anstoss 4
* Area 51
* Bandits: Phoenix Rising
* Bet on Soldier
* Beyond Divinity
* Black Mirror
* Blitzkrieg 2
* Blitzkrieg: Rolling Thunder
* Breed
* Brian Lara International Cricket 2005
* Broken Sword 3: The Sleeping Dragon
* Brothers in Arms: Earned in Blood
* Chaos League
* Chaos League: Sudden Death
* Codename: Outbreak
* Codename: Panzers - Phase One
* Codename: Panzers - Phase Two
* Cold War
* Colin McRae Rally 2005
* Cossacks II: Napoleonic Wars
* Cross Racing Championship 2005
* Curse: The Eye of Isis
* Cycling Manager 3
* Cycling Manager 3
* Cycling Manager 4
* D-Day
* Dead to Rights
* Demonic Speedway
* Desert Rats vs Afrika Korps
* Domination
* Emergency Fire Response
* Enigma: Rising Tide
* Etherlords II
* Fire Chief
* Fire Department
* Freedom Force vs The Third Reich
* Gangland
* Garfield
* Gooka: The Mystery of Janatris
* GT Legends
* GTR: FIA GT Racing Game
* Heroes of Might and Magic V
* Horse Race Manager
* Icewind Dale: Heart of Winter
* Keepsake
* Kicker Manager 2004
* Kill Switch
* King Kong
* Knights of the Temple 2
* Korea: Forgotten Conflict
* LMA Professional Manager 2005
* Lock On: Flaming Cliffs
* Medieval Lords
* Namco Museum 50th Anniversary
* Neuro Hunter
* Obscure
* Pariah
* Pax Romana
* Pferdehof - Pferd und Pony
* Pop Star Academy
* Postal 2: Apocalypse Weekend
* Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones
* Pro Rugby Manager
* Psi-Ops
* Pure Pinball
* Rally Championship Xtreme
* Restaurant Empire
* Restricted Area
* Revolution
* Runaway: A Road Adventure
* Scrapland
* Second Sight
* Silent Hunter 3
* Silent Storm
* Silkolene Honda Motocross GP
* Singles 2: Triple Trouble
* Singles: Flirt Up Your Life
* Sniper Elite
* Soldiers Heroes of World War 2
* Sommerspiele 2004
* Space Rangers 2
* Splinter Cell 3: Chaos Theory
* Star Wolves
* Steel Saviour
* Still Life
* Street Racing Syndicate
* Sudeki
* SuperPower 2
* Syberia II
* The Fall: Last Days of Gaia
* The Moment of Silence
* The Suffering: Ties That Bind
* The Westerner
* TOCA 2
* TrackMania
* TrackMania Nations
* TrackMania Sunrise
* Traitors Gate 2: Cypher
* UFO: Aftershock
* V8 Supercars 2
* Virtual Skipper 3
* Virtual Skipper 4
* Vivisector
* Wildlife Park
* World War II: Frontline Command
* Worms 4: Mayhem
* X2: The Threat
* X3: Reunion
* XIII
* Xpand Rally
* Xuan-Yuan Sword 4
 
Incidentally, I just fired off an email to the editors email at PCGamer. I think more of us need to do things like that to make the general public aware of this Sony "rootkit" like behaviour that is exhibited by Starforce. The fact that starcrap opens up the ability of a program (virus) to reach your core systems is unacceptable and is in NO WAY better than what Sony did with their rootkit.


Boycott Starforce said:
Moreover, the Starforce drivers, installed on your system, grant ring 0 (system level) privileges to any code under the ring 3 (user level) privileges. Thus, any virus or trojan can get OS privileges and totally control your system. Since Windows 2000, the Windows line security and stability got enhanced by separating those privileges, but with the Starforce drivers, the old system holes and instabilities are back and any program (or virus) can reach the core of your system by using the Starforce drivers as a backdoor.
Click to expand...
 
The great thing about the internet is that you now have a medium to fight back against stuff like this.

If Starforce has a legit product and they're simply a victim of bad publicity then they'll fight through it...but I don't think that's the case.

So...if you have a huge problem with StarForce you have two options

1) Don't buy their products - encourage others to follow suit (this is all I do)
2) Fight back... Make a site, a blog, a post on every message board you can find... Do something. (I don't feel strongly enough about the issue yet to do this ;) )

...but I haven't had any problems with Starforce yet. Well...I have A problem with Starforce (the fact that it's used) but I haven't had any actual problems yet. Once I do...I'll be a little more vindictive ;)
 
Here's the email I sent to the EFF today as well.

My Email to the EFF said:
To Whom It May Concern
I am a bit disappointed with the fact that you haven’t covered the convoluted copy protection that Starforce peddles on the gaming industry and hence to the consumers. The fact that more and more developers are using this junk is mind-numbing. The fact is that this copy protection is in a lot of games already and has caused hard failure and Windows to be vulnerable to propagating virus and Trojan attacks. The fact that there are tons of people who are having problems with this software that is installed on our systems without our knowledge or acknowledgement is truly amazing. Haven’t people learned from the Sony fiasco? Or where those lessons forgotten as soon as the media blitz on it died down? Maybe it’s time for sites such as yours to do some fact finding and report on some of the ways that games are being protected nowadays, what harm can come from it if any, and do some reporting on it. I’ll give you a head start, here are some links you might want to read up on and see what exactly the big fuss is about when it comes to Starforce and it’s “protection.” Never mind that people who actually pirate their games never have to deal with this crap, only the paying customers who spend their hard earned cash on games that end up doing nothing but harming their systems or worse exposing them to the same type of Sony“rootkit” like behavior by granting access that it shouldn’t and creating a nice Petri-dish for worms and virus propagation.
Best,
XXXXXX

Starforce has received criticism for installing its own device driver onto computers. The Starforce drivers are often linked to system instability and computer crashes. If these problems occur, the end-user would be unware as to the cause of the problem, and would be helpless to solve the problem.
For example, here's one of the common problems brought by Starforce: under Windows XP, if packets are lost during the reading or writing of a disk, XP interprets this as an error and steps the IDE speed down. Eventually it will revert to 16bit compatibility mode rendering a CD/DVD writer virtually unusable. In some circumstances certain drives cannot cope with this mode and it results in physical hardware failure (Most commonly in multiformat CD/DVD writer drives). A sure sign of this step down occurring is that the burn speeds will get slower and slower (no matter what speed you select to burn at). Starforce, on a regular basis, triggers this silent step down. Until it reaches the latter stages most people do not even realize it is happening.
Update: It has been reported by many users that the slowdown caused by StarForce on some recent multiformat DVD writers can cause irreversible hardware failures on those drives (they aren't recognized anymore), as they aren't supposed to write at slow speeds.
Moreover, the Starforce drivers, installed on your system, grant ring 0 (system level) privileges to any code under the ring 3 (user level) privileges. Thus, any virus or trojan can get OS privileges and totally control your system. Since Windows 2000, the Windows line security and stability got enhanced by separating those privileges, but with the Starforce drivers, the old system holes and instabilities are back and any program (or virus) can reach the core of your system by using the Starforce drivers as a backdoor.

• Anti-copying malware installs itself with dozens of games
• Irritation-Ware: Copy protection with a mean streak
• Codemasters forum: starforce (yes, again)
• Dear diary...: That evil copy protection
• Slashdot: StarForce Copy Protection Causing User Ire
• FileForums: Starforce Petition!
• Similarities: Games that use Starforce
• Clubic: D�bat autour de la protection Starforce
• Ubisoft forums: Starforce
• Ubisoft forums: Starforce : final report
• SysInternals: Starforce Malware
• When you don't want the 'FORCE' to be with you!
• Copy Protection, Customer Prevention!@#!
• http://www.glop.org/starforce/#games
Click to expand...
 
thanks Ominous Gamer, it's weird though, I had starforce 2.x, but the only game on this I've installed is Trackmania nations, which was a free download, no CD at all. I don't buy Starforce protected games, but I didn't figure a download would install that crap.

Anyway, I'm with the original poster as well. The most trouble I've had getting a game running is not one I've pirated (yes, I've done it, not proud of it), but rather Civ IV and SafeDisc 4. I run Daemon tools for convienance, and SafeDisc blacklists me for it, so I can't run Civ IV until I reboot. (Well now I just use SD4Hide which cleans out the registry entry for SD)
It's more of a hassle for me to run a game I bought legaly than it was for me to crack most games I stole.

For multiplayer games the CD key should be more than enough copy protection. For predominately single player games I can see the need for more than just the CD Key. But I lack a good solution for it, the steam style authentication is a pain for anyone not on broadband, the Starforce stuff is potentially detrimental to your system, and way to reminiscent of the Sony BMG debacle.
Maybe a one shot activation deal like windows XP has, a unique key based on your CD key and your windows product ID, you can re-active it as many times as you want with the same information, and say two or three different windows keys before you're calling up the manufacturer for help. That would be a simple way to stop copying en mass like P2P distrobution.
 
The gaming community is unique in it's organization and the ability to spread the word. Access to gamers ranges from hardcore clan web sites, hosting, and extending to your favorite gaming forum. The likely spread of population by hitting less then 100 sites could very easily cover 50-100,000 people of every age group and demographic.

Rather then criticizing companies like star force, I kinda think we need solutions to protect how we use "our(?)" games and how to protect publishers and copyright holders.

My best guess would be a license management system not unlike an anti-viral suit which may allow back-ups and no-cd play->a downside of this is online validation or updating the license database for patches and new installs. The “guess” hinges on challenging the identity of the licensee and a standardized folder plus files (heh, throw in an apache-torrent mod for patches, demos, and /. peer review and scoring styled web server for the hell of it).

edit: dot slash
 
Their responce to accusations is "fly over to Moscow and prove it". What the heck?

That's rediculous, they might as well say they're located in Iraq or the mountains of Afghanistan or the bottom of the pacific ocean. @_@

Not only that, but they're asking people to ruin at least one drive while testing this, then fly over there and ruin another drive, and trust someone who makes malware to be honorable and pay off for the contest! Now, I can see with Jack Thompson's "contest" where several people tried that out, there was no way to know he was kidding because he makes insane statements all of the time and means every word of it, but with this you're asking me to trust a company which is basically on the same level as Napster in their pre-legit days enough to fly my ass to a country literally on the other side of the world in the middle of their winter, a winter so harsh it was able to defeat Hitler AND Napoleon! o_O

Furthermore, it shouldn't matter whether or not the thing actually kills drives, it simply is not required for games to function and adds one more device driver to bog down the user's system, that's totally unacceptable. Of course, if you download a pirated version of these games you won't have to deal with starforce's stuff. Once again, we see copy protection encouraging people to pirate, which means that starforce and its kin can validate their existance.

I wouldn't be too suprised to find that Starforce hosts torrents of games so they can tell Ubisoft or whoever "we can tell you for a fact that 10,000 people downloaded (fill in the blank game)!"

Quake 4's copy protection might be at fault here, but either way when I installed the game it kept on stalling out on the third disk so I had to copy the data from all the disks on to my hard drive and install it from there. @_@ Come on, really this shit is rediculous because the next step would have been downloading the game I already paid gamestop $50 for!
 
It hasnt screwed with my computer or my brothers computer or my old computer

soo i dont give a shit about bootleggers yelling about starforce ill support em all the way.
BTW why cant it be reproduced !??!? remeber starforce challenge !
 
Hey to the original poster, thanks for posting this, I was unaware what starforce did, I think others were also unaware of it until now, I just wanna play a game to relax like the rest of the bunch, but when it becomes a pain in the ass by causing system instability on a perfectly stable system, the games become no longer fun because we were looking at problem in the wrong places, no gamer wants them installing their crap on our pc's w/o us knowing and causing a buncha problems, thats pure evil bullshit, and yes I scanned and had starforce on my pc, I dont think im going to purchase any games that use that kind of protection, thats way over the line as I do agree about this with others, the CD-Key should be plenty by itself. Is there a site that updates their gamelist regularly to see what kind of protection it uses? That way we know not to buy it...
 
If it kills drives and prevents use of CD/DVD burning software, why don't the manufacturers of these products step up and say something? With all these copy protection schemes I have come across, I have seen Nero, Alcohol, Roxio, Daemon Tools, Ultra ISO and a few other programs of these types get dissabled or uninstalled without the permission of the user.
As for clicking agree, that is not a legally binding contract. For signing e-contracts, their is a specific routine to follow, a digital signature. It's like signing a paper contract by writing an "X" instead of your signature. There is no proof that YOU agreed to it. and to give you no warning anywhere (EULA, fine print inside or outside the box) of other things that are being installed, is illegal. but they have the money to buy justice.

As for protection schemes that are on the optical disc only, aren't they just a bunch of 1's & 0's? I know some use junk data and sub-channels, but its all about telling the optical drive how to read it and then burn it. To circumvent the security schemes violates the DMCA but if you make a perfect clone, with all the schemes and encryptions still there. what are you circumventing?
 
NeghVar said:
If it kills drives and prevents use of CD/DVD burning software, why don't the manufacturers of these products step up and say something?
Click to expand...

As far as I know, actually breaking physical drives is purely rumor. Granted it's hard to prove something like that over the internet, but I know of no real confirmed cases of this. And frankly I very much doubt the cliams.
The other stuff, the installing device drivers without permission, the possible problems with IDE performance and promoting user code to system privelages is a bonified and certified reason for users to dislike it. But as we saw with Sony BMG, they're banking on the fact that the vast majority of people won't understand it, and will simply accept that they can't make a copy.

As for protection schemes that are on the optical disc only, aren't they just a bunch of 1's & 0's? I know some use junk data and sub-channels, but its all about telling the optical drive how to read it and then burn it. To circumvent the security schemes violates the DMCA but if you make a perfect clone, with all the schemes and encryptions still there. what are you circumventing?
Click to expand...

That's why StarForce or SafeDisc and the like install software on your PC designed to prevent CD copy programs from working with protected dics. These are device drivers running at system level privelages and they can intefere with the operation of user level software like Nero or other CD copy programs including those doing bit for bit copies of the CD. To copy an protected disc you have to circumvent the software they're installing.
 
to the guy who installed XIII and didn't have Starforce installed, the reason is that there were a bunch of different pressings of XIII. I don't know how many, but i remember reading in some industry mag that despite the fact it didn't sell well there are like 9 or ten slightly different pressings of various configurations floating around.

Not my first hand knowlage, just regurgitating what i read. I have a 4 disc international version that like yours contains no starforce, but one of my roomates picked his copy up at best buy when it released and his does have starforce.
 
I smoked some ciggarettes and didn't get cancer, I guess that means they're perfectly safe for everyone and even small children and babies should smoke!

There is such a thing as consumer's rights, and just like the right to privacy it is under attack and has been eroded over the years, if we just lie down and take it things will become worse and worse and you will see more and more corporate spyware and rootkits making your system more and more vulnerable.

Bottom line: If we don't raise hell about the erosion of rights then we're helping al-queda. You don't want to help al-queda, do you?

koss2010 said:
It hasnt screwed with my computer or my brothers computer or my old computer

soo i dont give a shit about bootleggers yelling about starforce ill support em all the way.
BTW why cant it be reproduced !??!? remeber starforce challenge !
Click to expand...
 
Moose777 said:
Oh, my god.

I thought I was more careful about buying games that ahve Starforce. I just looked in my device manager for Starforce drivers....I have Starforce on my computer.

I need to get rid of it.

Is there a list of gmaes with this horrid program somewhere so that I can pay more close attention to it?
Click to expand...

lol and thats the truth. most people don't experience any problems with it. oh but if they find out they have it, well then all hell breaks loose and starforce causes system instability!
 
Bo_Bice said:
lol and thats the truth. most people don't experience any problems with it. oh but if they find out they have it, well then all hell breaks loose and starforce causes system instability!
Click to expand...

Kind of like how someone just lets themself into your your home and starts tinkering with stuff. You wouldn't know, so it wouldn't hurt you, right? Great use of logic, there.
 
The King of Pants said:
to the guy who installed XIII and didn't have Starforce installed, the reason is that there were a bunch of different pressings of XIII. I don't know how many, but i remember reading in some industry mag that despite the fact it didn't sell well there are like 9 or ten slightly different pressings of various configurations floating around.

Not my first hand knowlage, just regurgitating what i read. I have a 4 disc international version that like yours contains no starforce, but one of my roomates picked his copy up at best buy when it released and his does have starforce.
Click to expand...

I figured some version had it, or it wouldn't be on the list.
This whole thing would have a lot more credit if the anti-starforce site was more professional, listing such things as having starforce dropped from certain XIII pressings.
 
Ominous Gamer said:
I figured some version had it, or it wouldn't be on the list.
This whole thing would have a lot more credit if the anti-starforce site was more professional, listing such things as having starforce dropped from certain XIII pressings.
Click to expand...

Indeed. Part of the problem is how people are presenting the problem. I see people all the time cussing up a storm about starforce and how they want to murder the people that created it... but thats not helping. There needs to be an organized, professional stand against this if we want to get anywhere.
 
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