Input lag tests?

T

TheGooch69

Gawd
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Dec 7, 2007
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I have the Gateway XHD3000 and there has been some concern from other owners about its input lag and its affect on gaming. One user actually returned his because the input lag was so bad, so he says.

Is there anyway to test the input lag without using another monitor to compare side by side? Input lag is a big problem for gamers and if it's bad enough I might have to return the display.
 
Without additional CRT or other CRT equipped identical (both hardware and software) computer it's pretty much impossible to do.
 
Ah crap, I thought so. I do have a 19" samsung CRT in storage I could use.

Even if there is high input lag, I have to consider if its even worth returning and begin searching for a better 30" display (if it even exists). The only other one that comes to mind is the new multi port Dell that came out, but I dont even know if its any better as far as input lag and picture quality. Could be the same.
 
I'm interested in some input lag tests too.

I am eyeing up the Dell 3008, but if the input lag is too high it wont fulfill my usage needs. I plan to use it as a PC monitor (obviously) but I would like to use the other inputs (VGA etc) for XBox 360, wii, tv tuner etc...if the input lag is too high it would be pretty useless for console games.
 
Syphon Filter said:
I'm interested in some input lag tests too.

I am eyeing up the Dell 3008, but if the input lag is too high it wont fulfill my usage needs. I plan to use it as a PC monitor (obviously) but I would like to use the other inputs (VGA etc) for XBox 360, wii, tv tuner etc...if the input lag is too high it would be pretty useless for console games.
Click to expand...

I use my XHD3000 for gaming. I have every console hooked up to it (Wii, 360, PS3) and my pc rig in my sig. I cant really tell if the input lag is affectin my gaming without using another CRT side by side. I was using a samsung 32" lcd tv as my monitor before I got the XHD3000. Maybe I should set that up side by side and see if there is a difference. I will do this maybe tonight and let everyone know what I come up with'
 
Also try it with the 1600p option enabled and disabled. I'm guessing his "input lag" is due to the 1600p option being enabled. A good way to test is to hook up any recent DDR. It should have an option to adjust for these kinds of lag issues. Here's also a good discussion about input latency and the different types of displays in general.
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=94426

Edit:
ExtremeHD™ Widescreen Performance
The Silicon Optix Realta® HQV® "Hollywood Quality Video" powered by Teranex video processing chipset powers the Gateway XHD3000 with amazing 1600p HD video for optimal clarity, smoothness and accuracy with 16.7 million colors. The video processor performs one trillion operations per second for enhanced image quality and offers advanced capabilities, such as deinterlacing, film cadence detection, noise reduction, and detail enhancement for unparalleled image quality.
Click to expand...
This is the most likely cause of said input lag mentioned by your customers. In short with this feature enabled the signal needs to go through an extra one trillian hops to make it all pretty o.o. Bottom line things like this is good for watching movies and such, not so much for fragging/killing/beating your opponents. If you tell all your customers to disable this feature when playing video games the input lag will magically go away.
 
Keiichi said:
Also try it with the 1600p option enabled and disabled. I'm guessing his "input lag" is due to the 1600p option being enabled. A good way to test is to hook up any recent DDR. It should have an option to adjust for these kinds of lag issues. Here's also a good discussion about input latency and the different types of displays in general.
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=94426
Click to expand...

I didnt know there was an option to enable/disable 1600p upscaling. Thought it was automatic fulltime. Do you know where in the menu system the option to turn it off is?
 
TheGooch69 said:
I didnt know there was an option to enable/disable 1600p upscaling. Thought it was automatic fulltime. Do you know where in the menu system the option to turn it off is?
Click to expand...

I'm an idiot sorry, this is an always on thing. While you can set the zoom to a 1:1 ratio, you'll be watching a very tiny screen. There's nothing wrong with the unit per se, it just wasn't built to do gaming other than at native.
 
Gooch, here is a very easy way, atleast for me to tell the XHD3000 I returned had a lot of input lag. Turn on your PC and change the resolution to something other then the 2560x1600 native resolution. Now move your white mouse on a black background. With the lower resolution, everything is going through the scalar just like your PS3 or XBOX360 would. I would say the input lag is a good 100ms which is huge (guesstimate). That is why I was saying I was doing so much worse in Halo3 then when I had my old monitor that had no input lag. Try to do precise movements and clicking at the lower resolution, you will definitely see what I am talking about with the lag.

Please report back your findings.
 
Vega said:
Gooch, here is a very easy way, atleast for me to tell the XHD3000 I returned had a lot of input lag. Turn on your PC and change the resolution to something other then the 2560x1600 native resolution. Now move your white mouse on a black background. With the lower resolution, everything is going through the scalar just like your PS3 or XBOX360 would. I would say the input lag is a good 100ms which is huge (guesstimate). That is why I was saying I was doing so much worse in Halo3 then when I had my old monitor that had no input lag. Try to do precise movements and clicking at the lower resolution, you will definitely see what I am talking about with the lag.

Please report back your findings.
Click to expand...

as soon as I get home i will try that out. thanks. I am sure you are correct about the level of input lag. Personally, I may never actually notice it or have it affect my playing, or I may. I am no Uber player but I dont suck either, I have my good and bad days I guess.

Anyways I have had the monitor for over 30 days so I dont know if I am eligable for a full refund from Gateway anyways so I may be stuck with the monitor either way.
 
Hrm,

100ms sounds like quite a lot of input lag!! Probably more than most peoples pings on XBL!

Also it's not just about online play, a tenth of a second second is quite a long time if you're playing a racing game or something.

I just wonder if the analog inputs (component/VGA) also suffer just as badly...I might hold off and stick with my 26" 1280x768 screen. But boy, a 30" 2560x1600 would be bloody awesome for work.
 
Vega, I did the test you suggested and you're right. The input lag is very high. Even at native resolution its a bit laggy. The pointer seems to lag behind a bit and moves across the screen jittery. Damn. I wonder though how much this truly effects my gaming.

Ok here is the next big question to determine whether I should return the XHD3000. Is there any better 30" widescreen LCD display that have multiple inputs, equal or better picture quality, and less input lag? I've been spoiled thus far for the most part and I won't get a display that's any smaller than 30" and that has multiple input ports. Also when researching displays, which spec indicates the level of the input lag?
 
Any display that features some sort of video processing feature will cause the lag. Honestly, I would suggest getting a 30" 1920x1200 or 1080P display.
 
TheGooch69 said:
Vega, I did the test you suggested and you're right. The input lag is very high. Even at native resolution its a bit laggy. The pointer seems to lag behind a bit and moves across the screen jittery. Damn. I wonder though how much this truly effects my gaming.

Ok here is the next big question to determine whether I should return the XHD3000. Is there any better 30" widescreen LCD display that have multiple inputs, equal or better picture quality, and less input lag? I've been spoiled thus far for the most part and I won't get a display that's any smaller than 30" and that has multiple input ports.
Click to expand...
The only one for now and the near future is the 3008 from Dell. It is an S-IPS panel should it SHOULD have less input lag.
Also when researching displays, which spec indicates the level of the input lag?
Click to expand...
There is none.
From wiki:
Input lag versus response time
LCD screens with a high response time value often do not give satisfactory experience when playing fast paced computer games. But an LCD screen with high response time AND significant input lag is unsuitable for playing fast paced computer games or performing fast high accuracy operations on the screen (e.g. CAD design). Manufacturers only state the response time of their displays and do not inform customers of the input lag value.

Try this:
[edit] "Game mode"
Many televisions, scalers and other consumer display devices now offer what is often called a "game mode", in which the extensive preprocessing responsible for additional lag is specifically sacrificed in order to decrease, but not eliminate, latency. While typically intended for videogame consoles, this feature is also useful for other interactive applications. Similar options have long been available on home audio hardware and modems for the same reason.

On your monitor it is under the Video Adjust menu.
 
When connected through DVI the Video Adjust options aren't selectable. Also I can't find any type of game mode option when in other input modes. I don't think this display has it. My Samsung does though, but whatever.

I just got off the phone with Gateway and they said since it's been over 15 days since I received the display that I can't get a refund. Such bull shit. I am now stuck with a $1700 display that is most likely horribly effecting my gaming. I am so pissed right now.

Word to the wise. NEVER EVER buy a Gateway product directly from Gateway. In fact, don't ever buy a Gateway product again.
 
TheGooch69 said:
When connected through DVI there isn't an option for Game mode.

I just got off the phone with Gateway and they said since it's been over 15 days since I received the display that I can't get a refund. Such bull shit. I am now stuck with a $1700 display that is horribly effecting my gaming. I am so pissed right now.

Word to the wise. NEVER EVER buy a Gateway product directly from Gateway. In fact, don't ever buy a Gateway product again.
Click to expand...

It is only for all other modes except DVI.

Hey you bought that monitor with full knowledge of the return policy, or you should have known. You enjoyed it for over 30 days. Now because other people have you LOOKING for input lag all of a sudden it is horrible. Don't blame Gateway, no other store would take it back after 30 days. Either live with it or sell it on Ebay and buy the Dell 3008. Of course we have no idea what input lag that has.
 
rinaldo00 said:
It is only for all other modes except DVI.

Hey you bought that monitor with full knowledge of the return policy, or you should have known. You enjoyed it for over 30 days. Now because other people have you LOOKING for input lag all of a sudden it is horrible. Don't blame Gateway, no other store would take it back after 30 days. Either live with it or sell it on Ebay and buy the Dell 3008. Of course we have no idea what input lag that has.
Click to expand...

You are right. Do you have this monitor?
 
TheGooch69 said:
You are right. Do you have this monitor? Do you know exactly where "Game Mode" is because I looked all over the menu for it and can't find it.
Click to expand...

Yes I have it.

On any mode EXCEPT for DVI go to Main menu, then Video Adjust, then Theme Mode.

Good luck!
 
I wonder if the Dell 3008 is actually any better...if not then I suppose i should just get a 1080p TV.
 
I hooked up my Samsung 32" side by side with the XHD3000 for a comparison and the results were astounding. The XHD3000 lagged behind so badly compared to the Samsung. However, the XHD3000 did have a much better picture and color quality. The highest resolution the Samsung supports is 1360x768 :(

Win lose situation.
 
Ya Gooch, as soon as I started playing with the XHD3000 on my XboX360 and I started to suck I knew something was up. At native resolution using a computer the lag isn't that bad because it bypasses the scalar. Other resolutions can only be used for watching movies as the lag is way too bad to play games with.
 
TheGooch69 said:
I hooked up my Samsung 32" side by side with the XHD3000 for a comparison and the results were astounding. The XHD3000 lagged behind so badly compared to the Samsung. The highest resolution the Samsung supports is 1360x768
Click to expand...

Was this using DVI at 2560x1600? What CPU and video cards do you have? Running games at that resolution takes power. Underpowered systems will add to the lag. Running at the lower resolution on the Samsung helps.
 
Vega said:
Ya Gooch, as soon as I started playing with the XHD3000 on my XboX360 and I started to suck I knew something was up. At native resolution using a computer the lag isn't that bad because it bypasses the scalar. Other resolutions can only be used for watching movies as the lag is way too bad to play games with.
Click to expand...

Are you going to give the 3008 a try?
 
rinaldo00 said:
Was this using DVI at 2560x1600? What CPU and video cards do you have? Running games at that resolution takes power. Underpowered systems will add to the lag. Running at the lower resolution on the Samsung helps.
Click to expand...

PC specs in sig. I changed the resolution in CoD4 to 2560x1600 and it runs well and I do notice a drop in the input lag a bit. I don't really seem to notice the input lag as badly when playing PS3 as I do PC games. I honestly might be confusing a shitty Microsoft mouse with input lag. I don't know whatever. Can't return it so and I doubt I'll find someone to buy it without losing a few hundred dollars. I'm done complaining so I'll just deal with it.

That's what I get for rushing into things without proper research.
 
TheGooch69 said:
PC specs in sig. I changed the resolution in CoD4 to 2560x1600 and it runs well and I do notice a drop in the input lag a bit. I don't really seem to notice the input lag as badly when playing PS3 as I do PC games. I honestly might be confusing a shitty Microsoft mouse with input lag. I don't know whatever. Can't return it so and I doubt I'll find someone to buy it without losing a few hundred dollars. I'm done complaining so I'll just deal with it.

That's what I get for rushing into things without proper research.
Click to expand...

The best way to judge input lag is by 'feel' Do you have more trouble doing things in your games now than before? Especially time critical things like combos in fighting games or shooting people in multiplayer games.

Pretty good PC specs. I have a QX6850 overclocked to 3.33 GHz and 2 EVGA 8800 Ultras in SLI. Not trying to top you, just explaining why games might run smoother on my PC at 2560x1600. I play some COD4, UT3, but my main games are RTS like WIC, and anything with 'tycoon' in the title. I love Bioshock too. I hope you can still enjoy the monitor, I am!
 
rinaldo00 said:
The best way to judge input lag is by 'feel' Do you have more trouble doing things in your games now than before? Especially time critical things like combos in fighting games or shooting people in multiplayer games.

Pretty good PC specs. I have a QX6850 overclocked to 3.33 GHz and 2 EVGA 8800 Ultras in SLI. Not trying to top you, just explaining why games might run smoother on my PC at 2560x1600. I play some COD4, UT3, but my main games are RTS like WIC, and anything with 'tycoon' in the title. I love Bioshock too. I hope you can still enjoy the monitor, I am!
Click to expand...

In CoD4 if I am roaming a map and run into another player, they usually seem to get the jump on me and attack me first. Also during cluster fucks my aim seems to be off and I am dead before I know what happens. Again some of this might be due to a crappy mouse and just slow reaction time but I am sure the input lag is adding to the problem.
 
Hrm,

This I wonder if it's just as bad on analog inputs like component etc...

For general PC use its not the end of the world, I dont do much PC gaming these days, mostly just work. But I was planning on doubling the screen up for use with 360 (over HDMI) and Wii over component.

The S-Video or composite coudl be used with a TV Tuner (unless I decide to get a USB tuner instead).
 
There isn't an LCD out there that will compare to a CRT in terms of input lag. All of them have it. All HDTV's have input lag. It's just various games have gone away from that precise timing that the older ones relied on. You won't see a street fighter 3 type of game again for a long time due to it's random nature while playing and its near impossibility to play accurately on current TV setups (when your window for reaction is 3 frames and your tv lags you 1-2 fps at it's BEST, the window is too damn small).

Music timing games are preset steps or moves, simply adding an delay to the timing will assist the player. Most north american versions of timing games ALSO incorporate a very lenient grading system too as their goal is not to make twitch players, but make you feel like you are a rock star lol.

As for FPS gamers, I find my kill ratio goes up when I use a CRT, I've more or less adapted to the lag of my LCD, I don't get as many headshots as I used to, but if I were to get competitive again, I would settle for no less than my old trinitron 19 inch 16x12 85hz. If I could get that sony 24 inch crt for cheap and not worry about it making my room an oven in summer, I'd use that.
 
Slade said:
There isn't an LCD out there that will compare to a CRT in terms of input lag. All of them have it. All HDTV's have input lag. It's just various games have gone away from that precise timing that the older ones relied on. You won't see a street fighter 3 type of game again for a long time due to it's random nature while playing and its near impossibility to play accurately on current TV setups (when your window for reaction is 3 frames and your tv lags you 1-2 fps at it's BEST, the window is too damn small).

Music timing games are preset steps or moves, simply adding an delay to the timing will assist the player. Most north american versions of timing games ALSO incorporate a very lenient grading system too as their goal is not to make twitch players, but make you feel like you are a rock star lol.

As for FPS gamers, I find my kill ratio goes up when I use a CRT, I've more or less adapted to the lag of my LCD, I don't get as many headshots as I used to, but if I were to get competitive again, I would settle for no less than my old trinitron 19 inch 16x12 85hz. If I could get that sony 24 inch crt for cheap and not worry about it making my room an oven in summer, I'd use that.
Click to expand...

Very interesting. I know that LCD's are still a ways off from being perfect when it comes to gaming. Like you said, I game often but I am not a crazy competitor so I am just going to live with the input lag. Maybe when I move into my bigger place in a few months I'll setup my Samsung 19" CRT next to the XHD3000 and use the CRT for gaming.
 
rinaldo00 said:
Are you going to give the 3008 a try?
Click to expand...

I don't think so. 2560x1600 res I think is a bit of overkill after using one. Especially for me that plays a lot of FPS games, it's just too big of a screen for really quick games and sitting at a normal viewing distance. I might be going with the 26" Planar. It's a H-IPS top quality screen with one of the fastest response times for any LCD, under one frame of input lag. It also uses 1920x1200 res which I think is the sweet spot for a combination of web viewing and game playing.
 
Vega said:
I don't think so. 2560x1600 res I think is a bit of overkill after using one. Especially for me that plays a lot of FPS games, it's just too big of a screen for really quick games and sitting at a normal viewing distance. I might be going with the 26" Planar. It's a H-IPS top quality screen with one of the fastest response times for any LCD, under one frame of input lag. It also uses 1920x1200 res which I think is the sweet spot for a combination of web viewing and game playing.
Click to expand...

Nice. Good luck with it and let us know how the display works out.

Which Planar exactly are you looking at?
 
There needs to be a sticky in this forum that lists measured input lag times, kind of like the overclocking thread that has the chart for overclocks. To be put into the chart, you just post your screenshot as proof of stability. For input lag, there would be a standard method that everyone would follow and as proof post a picture of the LCD next to a CRT running the timing software. Couldn't we establish a step-by-step instruction set and create something like this? This way, people who have an LCD and want to upgrade without increasing input lag would just compare their LCD's lag versus the one's being considered for purchase. For example, I have a 20" Sceptre monitor that I have no real issues with (yeah, it has some backlight bleeding and other small issues but I am overall very happy with it) and I'm looking to upgrade to a 24"-30" LCD. The input lag on the Sceptre is acceptable to me, so I'd like to be able to compare it to all of the 24"-30" screens out there to decide on which to buy. There could even be an area in the chart for comments concerning quality issues (ie: backlight bleeding, crappy speakers, poor OSD, crappy stand, etc). I'd have no problem making and updating a chart, but I would need help in creating the proper procedures. What do you guys think?
 
Well, originally, video was not intended to be displayed on LCDs after all, video was meant to be displayed on CRTs. I guess LCDs do a really good job.
Buy a good CRT and shut up!:D
 
beelzibub said:
There needs to be a sticky in this forum that lists measured input lag times....
Click to expand...
Hate to hijack a thread, but since this one already seems to be dedicated to input lag i thought id post in here. After reading this one, i got a little worried about a recent 24" LCD i got and its input lag and did some side by side tests with an older CRT and a stopwatch program and took some pictures with the shutter at 1/500th of a second and got this


Best result
lagtest1tw9.jpg


Worst result
lagtestnq6.jpg


The numbers on the far right a milliseconds. So would that mean that there is 1-3 ms of input lag?
 
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