Insidious nVidia over-optimisation

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Wally

2[H]4U
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Apr 5, 2005
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I've been hearing a bit about shimmering issues with nVidia's latest cards in games such as BF2 on these forums, and my attention was brought to an article by the Inquirer. I know what you'll be thinking, and i thought it too - but just to check it out, i visited 3D Centre and Computerbase , and it's not really surprising to me - being someone who's always preferred better visual quality over an extra 6 fps you won't notice anyway, i've liked ATi's cards from what i've seen of their in-game visuals.

It turns out that nVidia's been over-optimising its cards at the expense of its customers, with better results in benchmarks earning it a reputation for better performance, whilst sacrificing image quality to such an extent that artefacting in some games renders them nearly unplayable. The second site used custom drivers to run the 7800GTX, with AF enabled properly, not crippled as it have been on all 6800/7800 cards, and saw up to a 30% performance hit.

Now, this probably isn't as big a concern for all you PC studs who like their e-peni inflated by a stupid 3DMark score, but for people like me who want to play a beautiful-looking game at its best with top performance and uncorrupted visuals, i'm going with the X8xx series, and this underhand manipulation of the GPU community at the expense of the customers has ensured that I avoid nVidia cards for as long as they exist (as a matter of principle). You can keep your shitty SM3.0 with neglibly-different visuals and your HDR-but-only-with-a-patch-and-if-you-turn-AA-off, i'll just smear some vaseline on my screen :D
(bit of an ATi f a n b o y myself anyway, so i prolly wouldn't buy nVidia even if they hadn't done this. Not the point.)

EDIT: sorry for the chinglish on the second link btw, stupid google translation, lol...
 
Both ATI and Nvidia have been caught with their hand in the cookie jar at some point. But in this day and age if Nvidia is doing something underhanded they should know by now that people will find out about it sooner rather than latert as most review sites are or have members that are able to uncover this sort of thing.

I myself will wait for the 520/580 to come out before I purchase my next card.
 
Not news my friend. Seems they are more keen on fixing it this time. It is also not fair when people hack drivers and say "look what needs to be done to get rid of shimmering?" Give them a chance to fix it for real. It appears ATi opts work better/cleaner. Shutting them all off isn't fair yet either. Now with the latest betas they are getting it working in HiQ again. But that would be with very little opts at all, and ATi would have opts, they just work better for those that notice the shimmering. All opts bring some kind of arties, so NV HiQ should be better than under the magnifying glass. Hopefully they get this fixed so we can go back to staring at two inches of the screen blown up and still beat on them for what differences are seen.
 
[rant] Aaaaargh!!! Why do people have to post the same OLD news in 10 different threads. It's not like there aren't threads on the FIRST PAGE already discussing this. [/rant]
 
I think your overreacting a bit. Nvidia said they found the source of the problem and are going to release a fix for it. But hey, maybe they did try to pull a fast one (wouldn't be the first time) on reviewers and now have to come clean, i don't know. But at least something is going to be done about it either way.
 
I think what you mean is "nVidia said: ohshit busted" and then tried to make it sound like an honest mistake which they are now working hard to rectify
 
This has already been fixed. Check out the inquirer again. And for the record ATI has done the same things in the past. Get over it.

D
 
They are working hard to undue their cheat without performance taking a mssive hit from doing it the right way to make it look like nothing actually happened.

Whats funny is that if this was a few years ago everyone would be going apeshit and gang banging Nvidia over this.

Now we accept it as common practice and just say YAH NVIDIA! for doing the right thing and fixing it! Its truly sad that this sort of stuff has become accepted practice.
 
*waves hand in classic Obi wan fashion*

Move along this is not the thread you are looking for.
 
dnavarro said:
This has already been fixed. Check out the inquirer again. And for the record ATI has done the same things in the past. Get over it.

D
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ZOMG FLAMEZ bye now. Thanks for your contribution
 
The reason this has becomae "accepted" is that both major graphics companies have been caught at one point or the other. It has become almost a joke at this point.

D
 
Wait, you mean Nvidia did something in their drivers to make the framerates better?

Those bastards!

Come on, let's burn the factory down...who's with me!
Jeez, enhance your calm. Making thier video cards faster is what they're supposed to be doing.
 
No what they are supposed to be doing is making them faster without turning the picture into crap. They could remove all AA and AF and that would make them super fast but players actually want good looking images.
 
Ahh, this would be "crap" that 90% of the public doesn't even notice?
How awful...tut tut.
 
The people that buy these high end cards arent the ones that wont notice. The ones that buy the cards are the ones that will and will want a cheat free card for the probably 500 to 600 bucks they spent on one.
 
dnavarro said:
The reason this has becomae "accepted" is that both major graphics companies have been caught at one point or the other. It has become almost a joke at this point.

D
Click to expand...

ATI's IQ doesnt get worse with new cores, Nvidias does. Funny how that works..
 
SkaarjMaster said:
To put it another way, we are not 90% of the public.;)
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++

I hate to say this, but as much as try not to be I am an ATI !!!!!!!!!!!!. I just like ATI better and Ive owned a bunch of different cards.

Geforce 4 4200 (the last card from nvidia that I felt was great)
Ati 9500 np soft-mod
9800 Pro
6800GT (noticed shimmering)
6800 Go (noticed shimmering)
x800xl

I just like ATI's cards better, and feel they are more of an honest company...even with ATI's latest problem, selling over-inflated stock. That really pissed me off, I just wish there was a good, honest, video card company out there today that was mainstream.
 
O[H]-Zone said:
Wait, you mean Nvidia did something in their drivers to make the framerates better?

Those bastards!

Come on, let's burn the factory down...who's with me!
Jeez, enhance your calm. Making thier video cards faster is what they're supposed to be doing.
Click to expand...


Hmm. Well, you're apparently not so bright


O[H]-Zone said:
Ahh, this would be "crap" that 90% of the public doesn't even notice?
How awful...tut tut.
Click to expand...

Lol, better than a measly fps increase that 100% of the public doesn't even notice
 
Wally said:
Hmm. Well, you're apparently not so bright
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And you obviously have a pretty weak argument, since the only reply you can come up with is to flame me.
Isn't that against forum rules?
 
Shifra said:
ATI's IQ doesnt get worse with new cores, Nvidias does. Funny how that works..
Click to expand...

Yeah the 7800GTX's Transparency Adaptive Supersampling and Multisampling look like ass. 16xAA looks like shit too when used with SLi. :rolleyes:

ATi's done it and so has nVidia. Optimizing your drivers for certain situations and applications is smart. Optimizations have been done in everything from cars to processors. Why run 16xAF on a solid wall in a dark corner that you can't hardly see anyway?

Most of these optimiazations can't even be seen by the human eye most of the time. The changes happen in such a short period of time. You really aren't going to notice for the most part. The only people who are really going to be upset by this are ATi !!!!!!s, and image quality purists who for some reason think that this makes a difference. When it does not.

I have the highest quality settings enabled in the driver control panel for my 7800GTX's and I've never had artifacting or strange visuals that make games "Unplayable". I don't have shimmering issues either.
 
Sir-Fragalot said:
Yeah the 7800GTX's Transparency Adaptive Supersampling and Multisampling look like ass. 16xAA looks like shit too when used with SLi. :rolleyes:

People really need to do their research before making comments. ATi's done it and so has nVidia. Optimizing your drivers for certain situations and applications is smart. Its also been done in everything from cars to processors. Why run 16xAF on a solid wall in a dark corner that you can't hardly see anyway?

Most of these optimiazations can't even be seen by the human eye most of the time. The changes happen in such a short period of time. You really aren't going to notice for the most part. The only people who are really going to be upset by this are ATi !!!!!!s, and image quality purists who for some reason think that this makes a difference. When it does not.
Click to expand...

I think the main problem with the 7800 series is the shimmering that cant be fixed by turning to High Quality mode. A $400+ card should be flawless.
 
The only thing I think that sucks is that you can't turn these optimizations off in driver, without seriously hacking the driver. The "shimmering" effect doesn't bother me. I can see how it would bother some people and I believe they have legitimate cause for concern.

When Nvidia releases a driver that will solve this issue I would like to try it out. But it sounds like they're on top of it, listening to their user base and trying to provide what the public demands. Too many people are crying foul here and calling Nvidia a cheater. It's too early to jump the gun!

The only thing that sucks is that benchmarks on review sites may be artificially inflated. I wonder how fixing this will impact performance :(
 
ToyYoda03 said:
I think the main problem with the 7800 series is the shimmering that cant be fixed by turning to High Quality mode. A $400+ card should be flawless.
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Why wouldn't you have it set for high quality anyway? I always have. If I need to turn down settings for something I do it in the game.
 
this is kinda stupid. Both companies opt their drivers to get better performance. Bitching about who went to far is stupid because until they mess up,they havnt crossed the line yet. Get over it. Nvidia and ATI both have their strengths and one fan calling the other a cheater at this point is also hyprocritically.
 
Sir-Fragalot said:
Why wouldn't you have it set for high quality anyway? I always have. If I need to turn down settings for something I do it in the game.
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nvidia recommends quality, and not high quality...it can decrease game performance as much as 30 percent
 
...presumably because it restores the IQ to the standard levels used by the industry rather than a mangled version used to convince people that nVidia pwns teh gfx, k
 
Would someone please post a picture of this "shimmering"? I wouldd like to see what all of this is about. Thanks.
 
I think there's a fair few threads in the Games & Gaming equipment forum
 
The reason this has becomae "accepted" is that both major graphics companies have been caught at one point or the other. It has become almost a joke at this point.
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Exactly so now !!!!!!s cant use it to insult the rival company. Its so sad the fact is the people who just like nice looking games bring it up and get shot down and called Fan Boys.

I like that Nvidia is fixing it though. None the less due to a lack of funding and other various problems (School School School) I am going to have to wait for my next GFX card but I am kind of feeling better that I did.
I just wonder why the [H]ard never talked about these IQ Problems? :confused:
 
O[H]-Zone said:
And you obviously have a pretty weak argument, since the only reply you can come up with is to flame me.
Isn't that against forum rules?
Click to expand...

Actually no because you REALLY aren't the brightest :D
(just jabbing) would have pointed it out a bit more though.

OVER-optimizations makes the image quality bad to the point where it doesn't look good.

Look up "Qwack" (Quake) for ATI a couple of years ago for a good example of why it's bad.

Granted optimizations aren't generally bad. It's just when they sacrifice too much image for speed.
 
good reads..

i guess upraded to the 7800GTX is going to ahve to wait and see if they get this fixed..
 
H-street said:
good reads..

i guess upraded to the 7800GTX is going to ahve to wait and see if they get this fixed..
Click to expand...

The shimmering problem is supposed to be fixed with the new coming drivers. The beta's already prove that its fixed but ONLY in high quality mode...which as mentioned earlier can take a big performance hit in some games.

Does nvidia still recommend playing in Quality mode w/ these new drivers?
 
Lol, better than a measly fps increase that 100% of the public doesn't even notice
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Well, according to your little research that you proposed in your first post, I don't think a 30% performance hit is measly.
 
This whole thing with AF and driver optimizations was/is supposed to be unnoticeable. If they go too far for more frames and less quality, they get caught. Simple as that.
 
Wally said:
The second site used custom drivers to run the 7800GTX, with AF enabled properly, not crippled as it have been on all 6800/7800 cards, and saw up to a 30% performance hit.
Click to expand...

And you know what you're mising? They disabled ALL optimisations. If you disable ALL optimisations on an ATi card you'll take a similar performance hit. If you disable just the optimisation that causes issues, then the performance hit will be much less.
 
The problem is not that Nvidia optimizes its that their optimization is flawed and leading to Shimmering and Bad AF.
 
^^^ What he said, also that and the fact that the nvidia drivers do not have the choice of turning the optimizations off at all, while in ati drivers its very VERY easy (just un-check the A.I setting)
 
i guess there is a point to all this bitching. you dont want shimmering, dont buy the card. nvidia takes a hit in the pocketbook maybe next time around it wont be an issue. for all we know, this could be a problem on the 520 also. i guess we'll see sometime in the far future.
very truly yours,
politenessman
 
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