IPad PRO outsold Microsoft's entire Surface line of products

Apple must have a better grasp on what users need/want.
Then again only hardware MS been able to push on consumers is the Xbox ..
 
In other news, using the same data from this report, Windows detachable keyboard 2 in 1s out sold the iPad Pro 3 to 1 last quarter.
 
I mean this is bigger than that.
The surprise is really how small ms marketshare is.
Wft? Maybe they should only do software and mice.
 
Uvaman2 said:
I mean this is bigger than that.
The surprise is really how small ms marketshare is.
Wft? Maybe they should only do software and mice.
Click to expand...

The point of the Surface line is to be niche market leader. Most of the 2 in 1s sold last quarter weren't made by either Apple or Microsoft but most of them were running Windows. The iPad Pro really isn't the same kind of device as the Surface line anyway. Part of the number in this includes the very expensive Surface Book. Microsoft couldn't have expected to sell those in large numbers.
 
That's odd, I though the surface line was a big seller for MS.
 
Stoly said:
That's odd, I though the surface line was a big seller for MS.
Click to expand...

We're not talking about a lot devices here to begin with. An estimated 2 million for the iPad Pro and 1.6 million for the Surface line. Surface had $1.3 billion in revenue for Microsoft which isn't bad for only 1.6 million devices, that well above the average selling price of any tablet, even the iPad or PC. Still that was about 5% of Microsoft's revenue. The iPad as a line is a bigger part of Apple's revenue.
 
Stoly said:
That's odd, I though the surface line was a big seller for MS.
Click to expand...

Well, it's all relative to marketing...

Big seller for Microsoft taken out of context, but not relative to the entire market as a whole.

Still, I'll hand it to Microsoft, they had me fooled also believing they had much higher sales and market penetration.
 
Yakk said:
Well, it's all relative to marketing...

Big seller for Microsoft taken out of context, but not relative to the entire market as a whole.

Still, I'll hand it to Microsoft, they had me fooled also believing they had much higher sales and market penetration.
Click to expand...

Out of the 8.1 million detachable sold last quarter about 3/4ths were Windows based. I don't know why people think that Surface is the entire Windows 2 in 1 or tablet market considering the large number of other devices from Microsoft's OEMs. Nexus phones will never outsell the iPhone. But the iPhone isn't going to outsell Android phones any time soon.
 
heatlesssun said:
Out of the 8.1 million detachable sold last quarter about 3/4ths were Windows based. I don't know why people think that Surface is the entire Windows 2 in 1 or tablet market considering the large number of other devices from Microsoft's OEMs. Nexus phones will never outsell the iPhone. But the iPhone isn't going to outsell Android phones any time soon.
Click to expand...

Comparing apples and oranges yes...

Still, if/when the day comes Apple, by itself, will outsell the entire Microsoft Windows market ecosystem of companies I will be impressed!
 
heatlesssun said:
Out of the 8.1 million detachable sold last quarter about 3/4ths were Windows based. I don't know why people think that Surface is the entire Windows 2 in 1 or tablet market considering the large number of other devices from Microsoft's OEMs. Nexus phones will never outsell the iPhone. But the iPhone isn't going to outsell Android phones any time soon.
Click to expand...

There are two reasons why people are crowing about the iPad Pro outshipping the Surface, even though the Surface is only just one part of the detachable market.

The big issue is Microsoft's own marketing: the Surface is marketed against both the iPad and the MacBook. That's partly to avoid antagonizing Windows PC vendors and has typically been a poor comparison, but it fuels the rivalry and sets expectations.

The other bit is simply that people wanted to know how the iPad Pro would do in its first quarter on the market. There's a degree of fandom involved -- Apple fans want to show that people really prefer iPads, while Microsoft fans want it to fail. However, there's also simple curiosity involved. Would people pay $799-plus for a large mobile OS tablet? Apparently, the answer is yes.
 
Aurelius said:
The big issue is Microsoft's own marketing: the Surface is marketed against both the iPad and the MacBook. That's partly to avoid antagonizing Windows PC vendors and has typically been a poor comparison, but it fuels the rivalry and sets expectations.
Click to expand...

I don't think that Microsoft has ever marketed the Surface Pro against the iPad, and certainly not the Surface Book, they've targeted MacBooks, which makes sense for the tablet that can replace a laptop.

The problem isn't marketing, it's that Windows 2 in 1s have no true competitor, something that both a laptop and a tablet, not one or the other. So both MacBooks and iPads get compared to Surfaces because a Surface does both things. It's natural in a way and nothing particularly wrong with the comparison.

I just think that comparing iPad Pro sales directly to JUST the Surface line and drawing conclusions from it, especially this early on doesn't mean much. Particaulrly since the iPad market collapsed YoY last quarter and the iPad Pro didn't stop it. Of course the iPad Pro didn't come out till mid-way through last quarter and I think the iPad Pro will help the iPad market in time. But still the iPad market is shrinking overall while the Windows 2 in 1 market is growing.

Aurelius said:
The other bit is simply that people wanted to know how the iPad Pro would do in its first quarter on the market. There's a degree of fandom involved -- Apple fans want to show that people really prefer iPads, while Microsoft fans want it to fail. However, there's also simple curiosity involved. Would people pay $799-plus for a large mobile OS tablet? Apparently, the answer is yes.
Click to expand...

I never doubted that there'd be a market for iPad Pros. But I don't think they're going to have too much impact on Windows 2 in 1s at this point considering just how much different these devices are. And I do think the iPad Pro could run up against the same problems as the iPad has leading to its large sales declines. Great tablet, but too expensive for what it does. Something that has appeal but not able to sustain long term growth.
 
Yakk said:
I really like my iPad Pro, but I didn't expect it to outsell Microsoft's ENTIRE Surface line of products by itself! :eek:

https://m.idc.com//pressRelease/prUS40990116

And a good writeup by Hexus :

http://hexus.net/mobile/news/tablets/90218-apple-ipad-pro-outsold-entire-surface-line-last-quarter-says-idc/
Click to expand...

I'd just like to make two points about the cited reports:

1. IDC only shows statistics for shipments not actual sales.

2. The sales figures that indicate one product sold more than another states, in part:

... Jean Philippe Bouchard, Research Director, Tablets at IDC ... "We believe Apple sold just over two million iPad Pros while Microsoft sold around 1.6 million Surface devices ...
Click to expand...

If there are hard numbers released by Apple to substantiate actual sales I'd be interested in seeing them. If those numbers are not available it's just a belief, i.e. a guess.
 
Chuklr said:
If there are hard numbers released by Apple to substantiate actual sales I'd be interested in seeing them. If those numbers are not available it's just a belief, i.e. a guess.
Click to expand...

I think it's a reasonable guess. In total numbers we're only talking about 2 vs. 1.6 million. I guess what grabs a lot of folks is that that 1.6 is for 3 devices versus 2 million for just one. Though it's not entirely clear if it covers the Surface Book. They do say entire Surface line but never specifically mention the Surface Book. And that device is so different and much more expensive than the iPad Pro that I really don't even see what conclusions would be made in comparing it's numbers, even as part of a group to the iPad Pro.
 
heatlesssun said:
I don't think that Microsoft has ever marketed the Surface Pro against the iPad, and certainly not the Surface Book, they've targeted MacBooks, which makes sense for the tablet that can replace a laptop.
Click to expand...

Not the Surface Pro, it looks like, but definitely the regular Surface. I could swear there were direct comparison ads, but apparently not.



The problem isn't marketing, it's that Windows 2 in 1s have no true competitor, something that both a laptop and a tablet, not one or the other. So both MacBooks and iPads get compared to Surfaces because a Surface does both things. It's natural in a way and nothing particularly wrong with the comparison.

I just think that comparing iPad Pro sales directly to JUST the Surface line and drawing conclusions from it, especially this early on doesn't mean much. Particaulrly since the iPad market collapsed YoY last quarter and the iPad Pro didn't stop it. Of course the iPad Pro didn't come out till mid-way through last quarter and I think the iPad Pro will help the iPad market in time. But still the iPad market is shrinking overall while the Windows 2 in 1 market is growing.
Click to expand...

Mind you, it's a bit of a Pyrrhic victory for Windows 2-in-1s -- PC sales are shrinking, and it's not clear that the 2-in-1s are replacing iPads or Android tablets instead of Windows PCs. You could say the same for the iPad Pro, of course... Apple may be selling iPad Pros to people who would otherwise have bought MacBooks.



I never doubted that there'd be a market for iPad Pros. But I don't think they're going to have too much impact on Windows 2 in 1s at this point considering just how much different these devices are. And I do think the iPad Pro could run up against the same problems as the iPad has leading to its large sales declines. Great tablet, but too expensive for what it does. Something that has appeal but not able to sustain long term growth.
Click to expand...

What I want to see is the iPad Air 3 (or whatever it's called). If the leaks are right, it could ultimately be a smaller iPad Pro, with keyboard support, Pencil support and four speakers... and unlike the Surface 3, it won't necessarily be slower than its larger counterpart. That could be the model Microsoft has to worry about, since you wouldn't have to pay $799 or more to get the "full" detachable iPad experience.
 
Just show's how many sheeple there are in the market :p

In reality though the Surface / RT were more competitors for the iPad while the Pros is more of a competitor for the Air.

Apple has a huge head start in the market and anyone would have a hard time making a dent in that for the average joe user (who the pro's are not really marketed at).
 
Surface Pro has to compete with all of the OTHER Windows tablets like Dell's awesome Venue line up the 11 Pro and arguably the best bang for the $$ the Venue 8 pro when it included office.... Apple does not compete with anyone else on their OS....
 
First off, I have to admit that I'm impressed that the discussion has been this even handed. Generally on this forum I'd expect tons of hate to come pouring out.

That said, I'm also surprised that the Surface hasn't sold like gangbusters. Really, I don't know why Microsoft users in general don't want laptops that are full OS, portable, and geared towards production. I may have underestimated people's desire to game on... apparently everything. If I wasn't an OSX junkie, I'd own a Surface. It's truly a product that MS is making that doesn't have an equivalent on any other platform.
 
UnknownSouljer said:
It's truly a product that MS is making that doesn't have an equivalent on any other platform.
Click to expand...

There are plenty of equivalents to the Surface line, pen and touch capable 2 in 1s running desktop Windows. And these devices are probably bigger competitors to the Surface line than the iPad Pro. And combined they outsold the Surface line and iPad Pro combined lust quarter.
 
heatlesssun said:
There are plenty of equivalents to the Surface line, pen and touch capable 2 in 1s running desktop Windows. And these devices are probably bigger competitors to the Surface line than the iPad Pro. And combined they outsold the Surface line and iPad Pro combined lust quarter.
Click to expand...

I know of a few. Out of them I would say that the Wacom is the most interesting (to me). But I still wouldn't say they are direct equivalents.

They don't compete on weight or size.... or even price. I think the Surface is the sweet spot. It's... I guess the Macbook Air of Hybrids. Minimal, but with just the essential components you need to get stuff done. The size/weight are a feature.

(Of course it's totally possible that I've missed some of the Surface's competitors. I'll admit to not knowing every mobile device on the market.)
 
UnknownSouljer said:
I know of a few. Out of them I would say that the Wacom is the most interesting (to me). But I still wouldn't say they are direct equivalents.

They don't compete on weight or size.... or even price. I think the Surface is the sweet spot. It's... I guess the Macbook Air of Hybrids. Minimal, but with just the essential components you need to get stuff done. The size/weight are a feature.

(Of course it's totally possible that I've missed some of the Surface's competitors. I'll admit to not knowing every mobile device on the market.)
Click to expand...

Starting with the Surface Pro 3, Microsoft finally got much more right than wrong with x86 tablets after a lot of years of OEMs trying various things. I've long believed that the flexibility of these devices, once the tech and pricing got there, would make them more mainstream. And that's finally come to pass. The Surface line though is like you say, at towards the upper end. Microsoft doesn't want to go toe to toe with it's OEMs pricing and they certainly want to make some money on the hardware.

It's going to be an interesting year with this type of hardware. Windows 2 in 1s should have a great year if predictions hold up. The iPad Pro I think is a good device and I did predict that it would do well and it's not surprising that it outsold the Surface line. But the iPad line is still contracting. The new iPad Air should be on its way soon and we should see how the iPad Pro holds up this quarter.
 
pxc said:
Hype is just hype. The best quarter MS had was ~2M units when dumping unsold Surface inventory.
Click to expand...

In terms of revenue this past quarter was by far the best the Surface line has ever had, up 29% YoY which was the previous best quarter for Surface. And while the iPad Pro may have outsold the enter Surface line, the iPad as a line saw a 21% drop in quarter YoY revenue.

So it's not just hype. Indeed even though the Surface line is much smaller had someone said three years ago that the Surface line would be seeing double digit growth and the iPad line double digit contraction in revenue, that person would have been called a fanboy.

Microsoft obviously makes tons of mistakes but for now with Surface it seems to be getting it right overall. And more importantly with not just the Surface but the whole 2 in 1 idea that's growing and has been predicted by many analysts to be on track for a great year for growth. The bet that Microsoft made starting with Surface and Windows 8, which looked very bad 3 years ago, doesn't look like such a bad idea now. A pure desktop OS on 2 in 1s like Windows 7 simply wouldn't have worked.
 
UnknownSouljer said:
First off, I have to admit that I'm impressed that the discussion has been this even handed. Generally on this forum I'd expect tons of hate to come pouring out.
Click to expand...

You can thank the recent housecleaning for that one. Certain... non-constructive people have been removed.



That said, I'm also surprised that the Surface hasn't sold like gangbusters. Really, I don't know why Microsoft users in general don't want laptops that are full OS, portable, and geared towards production. I may have underestimated people's desire to game on... apparently everything. If I wasn't an OSX junkie, I'd own a Surface. It's truly a product that MS is making that doesn't have an equivalent on any other platform.
Click to expand...

There's a few reasons why they haven't sold that well. I know some of these will be very familiar to this crowd, but it's worth summarizing:

1. Price. It's not just that the "good" Surface (the 3 is a fine device, but most people want the Pro) starts at $799, or $899 if you want the Pro 4. It's that the keyboard that defines the experience is a $130 extra. Realistically, you're looking at a minimum of $930 to get the full Surface experience. The iPad may not be as technically capable, but a $499 or $599 model will arguably cover the bases for most prospective tablet buyers.

2. Botched early execution. The Windows RT-based models, simply speaking, were a mistake -- Microsoft was too eager to chase the iPad (their tablet is ARM? We need an ARM model, too!), and too optimistic about developers' willingness to write touch-native Windows apps. That and early models of all kinds were fairly chunky.

3. Apps (or rather, a lack thereof). The RT issue is only part of it: Microsoft just hasn't done a good job of making Windows tablets attractive to app writers. Yeah, you can run two apps side by side in perfect harmony, but that's assuming that the apps you want are available... and they frequently aren't. Part of why the Surface is at its best in laptop mode is simply that you have access to the much wider ecosystem of Windows apps, rather than just a subset.

4. Marketing. Microsoft has never been especially good at pitching consumer products, and the Surface line reflects that. Remember "it's a PC!" from the earlier ads (as if that wouldn't scare away some buyers)? Or the dancing schoolgirls that just confused everyone? Or the many ads that revolve around an accessory that doesn't actually come in the box? Yeah. It's as if Microsoft can't help but try too hard or misjudge its audience.

Notice how the issues aren't really down to hardware so much as top-level corporate decisions? There's a good product at last (glitchy Surface Pro 4 / Surface Book releases aside), but it's not getting the backing it needs to be great.
 
Last edited:
1) Tells you the power of Apple Marketing
2) People love the ease of iPad Pro in regards to usage coming from a iDevice.
3) The fallacy that the iPad Pro is much safer is also trending to many users
4) Cause Apple lol
 
Aurelius said:
3. Apps (or rather, a lack thereof). The RT issue is only part of it: Microsoft just hasn't done a good job of making Windows tablets attractive to app writers. Yeah, you can run two apps side by side in perfect harmony, but that's assuming that the apps you want are available... and they frequently aren't. Part of why the Surface is at its best in laptop mode is simply that you have access to the much wider ecosystem of Windows apps, rather than just a subset.
Click to expand...

I completely agree that lack of apps is a problem. But it's not nearly as important of an issue on a larger screen tablet that is also meant to double as a productivity laptop replacement for several reasons the first being the most obvious, a device that's going to be used as a laptop simply isn't as reliant on touch optimized apps. Secondly, many of the missing apps are nothing more than website wrappers. And lastly, much of time when using a Windows 2 in 1 even as a tablet desktop apps are what one wants to use over mobile apps anyway. For instance, even as a tablet productivity folks will use the desktop version of Office over the mobile version because it's the most powerful version and it's touch enabled well enough to be effective in most cases.
 
Well, I see a lot of folks just wanted a bigger Ipad than what they already had, good on them. However, regardless of the Pro designation on it, it is still just a tablet and a consumption device ultimately. For me, essentially, an overpriced toy that would end up collecting a lot of dust. I did get a great deal on a Surface Pro 3, sold my Surface Pro and am very happy with it. The larger screen definitely makes things easier on the eyes.
 
All I know is that I see a lot of Surface devices in use in my area, especially in some of the major hospitals (along with Panasonic Toughbooks and Dell rugged Latitudes) - I've yet to see any iPad in use in a major facility in my area other than an Apple Store. ;)
 
RT would have been fine as a media consumption device but two things killed in the womb

who wants a version of windows that cannot run windows apps?
who wants windows phone without the phone part?

answer, not many people.

Heck they didn't even want WP 7... and 8.1 was too late to save MS in the mobile market.
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
RT would have been fine as a media consumption device but two things killed in the womb

who wants a version of windows that cannot run windows apps?
who wants windows phone without the phone part?

answer, not many people.

Heck they didn't even want WP 7... and 8.1 was too late to save MS in the mobile market.
Click to expand...

On top of this there wasn't enough price distinction between Windows x86 and Windows RT machines, not at the low end. While full Windows does have it's complications it's a tough sell for a device that's a proper subset of functionality that costs just as much as one that's functionally a proper superset.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top