IPS GLOW .......... how bad it really is?

Mr Spock

n00b
Joined
Jan 13, 2011
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5
Hi.

Well its my first post over here,but because im not here to write a book,id like to keep story short and simple.
Like a lot of us here,im also planning to get a new (at least somewhat decent lol) monitor ,so i did some homework and came to conclusion that ips technology is the way to go.
But more deeper i went into details,more i started notice complaints about some kind of a glow thing (not to be confused with backlight bleed)
So i became curious and went further with my search and found out that ips, in fact is not that perfect at all.
Apparently this white or tinted glow ,what manufactures call a "feature" seems to be a universal ips problem,my question is,how big this problem really is?


Things I've learned so far:

1. Without pretty much no exception,all ips based panels suffer from this glow.

2.But it can be fixed with a thing called A-TW polarizer.

3.Problem is that there's only a handful of models out there what has this polarizer.

4.And these models are ridiculously expensive.

5. + Most manufacturers have stopped producing these kind of panels,which means,that its next to impossible to find one,not to mention,find one with reasonable price.


So proceeding from that point, there's mainly 2 models what have sparked interest in me,beloved/hated zr24w and u2410 :D ....and yes i have read threads from top to bottom and seen the pictures of this problem.

But thing is,its still hard for me to make a final conclusion, you cant fully trust pictures because cameras due to wrong shutterspeed and iso settings tend to either mask or exaggerate the effect and the opinions about this issue aren't that much of a different.
Some say they wont notice the glow at all,some say that its noticeable only when you view screen from extreme angles,some say,its visible at straight on,and some say,that its visible straight on even at daylight .... so whats going on really?





Basically to simplify the point of this thread, i have few major questions.


1.How bad this glow thingy generally is,how does it affect the contrast ratio - shadow detail,and how annoying it is during (amateur) photoshopping, movies and games?

2.How`s the zr24w glow compares to u2410 ,which one is bad and which one is catastrophe?

3,Is there a 23-24 incher alternatives around 500 euro price tag? i.e. pva

4.And what`s better/worse,ips with a glow or pva with black crush? (and yes i know the severity of these issues vary from model to model,but whats the general situation in this ~ 500 euro segment?)



note:sorry if there's any typos and gibberish in the text,im a bit drunk and engrish is not my native language :p
 
A-TW models are still in production. The RGB-LED IPS panel uses A-TW, although it can only be found in high end models which aren't justified for ordinary applications likes games.

As for IPS glow itself, it may intrude into your view during normal use at the image corners, especially with the bigger panels. It is not a massive issue: IPS even with the glow effect has by far the best image stability and viewing angles compared to MVA.

IPS glow is really only noticeable on dark backgrounds, so its effect on Photoshop and games such as BFBC2 is negligible.

There is a PVA monitor that might suit your purposes made by Eizo called the EV2333W / FS2331. It has a higher contrast that suits games and movies and good factory image accuracy. The trade-offs are of course reduced image stability and the lower resolution. For specific demands there can be too much focus on the panel type and specifications rather than the quality and suitability of the monitor itself.
 
1.How bad this glow thingy generally is,how does it affect the contrast ratio - shadow detail,and how annoying it is during (amateur) photoshopping, movies and games?
Shadow detail is very bad with it in the bottom left and bottom right corner of all IPS widescreen displays. A 4:3 screen isn't as bad with it because the viewing angles aren't that extreme in the corners. In Photoshop I can only use the center of my screen, the corners aren't usable at dark pictures. In movies and games it's even worse, especially dark movies just suck, my SONY TV has way better dark colors. In Games like Amnesia the white glow can destroy the whole gameplay - games like BC2 are fine.

2.How`s the zr24w glow compares to u2410 ,which one is bad and which one is catastrophe?
I haven't seen any U2410 in my life, but the white glow should be the same. When I compare the HP ZR24w to my U2711 - the HP wins in terms of AG coating. The white glow is the same, my U2711 suffers a bit more because it's 27".

3,Is there a 23-24 incher alternatives around 500 euro price tag? i.e. pva
Everything from EIZO. I haven't seen any of the newest EIZO models out there - some say they aren't as good as they used to be, however, they still are the top of the top in terms of image quality - review sites like PRAD.de confirm that on and on.

4.And what`s better/worse,ips with a glow or pva with black crush? (and yes i know the severity of these issues vary from model to model,but whats the general situation in this ~ 500 euro segment?)
As an owner of dozens of IPS displays (most of them returned to the manufacturer) I have to say I would personally always go for PVA. Especially the new cPVA panels in the EIZO EV2333, EIZO FS2331 and Samsung 2333T seem to be just great. I might get one of these as soon as I found someone I can give my U2711 to.
 
cpvaglow.jpg
 
Where did you find that picture? It definitely doesn't look as bad ony any of the pictures I have seen.
 
For what it's worth, I find IPS glow easier to live with than VA gamma shift. Both can be seen sitting right in front of the monitor but still, picture is much more stable on an IPS. If c-PVA panels were made in 27" and 30" sizes it would be even more of a problem. I'm guessing the glow on those pictures is exaggerated by the camera but some VA panels do actually have visible glow.
 
Where did you find that picture? It definitely doesn't look as bad ony any of the pictures I have seen.
That image is from his F2380 review :)

The last 2 pages report that "Path to image directory () incorrect.".
They are from here, scroll down to the middle of page.
You can also use the translation, the images however probably won't load if you click on them. Use the first link in that case.
 
That F2380 image is BS. Obviously some one had fun cranking the monitors brightness+contrast and the cameras exposure to max or played with photoshop a little to much.

No other site has posted anything remotely close to that.

F2380

EV2333
 
Hi.

And what`s better/worse,ips with a glow or pva with black crush? (and yes i know the severity of these issues vary from model to model,but whats the general situation in this ~ 500 euro segment?)

It's up to you.

Any monitor (with a few exceptions) has angle glow to a certain extent. This is LCD glow.
Colorshift is negligible on IPS, very noticeable on PVA/MVA and killing on TN.

The good thing about LCD glow is that it's minimal from the most important point of view - a standard working position in front of the monitor.

The bad thing about colorshift (=abnormal image presentation, unstable image) on PVA/MVA is that it's unavoidable from any point of view and is worst when viewed from a standard working position in front of the monitor.



A brief demonstration of PVA colorshift.
A moniotor below is one of the top and most expensive PVA monitors - former Eizo CG series on PVA.
Compare with the reference monitor.

A part of the image on PVA is not visible "head on".
The whole image reveals on the angle view.
This is the trick the devil has played with PVA - you see more from an angle than from "head on".
Many people simply do not comprehend this PVA phenomenon saying something like "I don't need good viewing angles because I don't look at the monitor from an angle" - this is a mistake that comes from misunderstanding LCD technology.
But the angle view on PVA does not solve the problem: three identical parts of the image look differently from an angle. Which of them is correct? PVA gives no answer.
You can look at PVA monitors from any point of view and never get the correct image.

236zs.jpg
 
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This won't be a particularly insightful post; I'd just like to say I read these threads from time to time and cringe when I see the difficulties people are facing purchasing screens nowadays, as it seems there is no panel type or monitor that doesn't have at least 2-3 serious flaws. In the year of 2011 we really should not have to put up with displays that literally mangle the picture, each in their own ridiculous way.

I can only hope my recently bought FW900 lives until this ill-conceived technology is dethroned by something like OLED or better even; Laser RP - which, knowing the industry will only be used for TV's and once again we will be force-fed the fixed-pixel displays. This tech. In a 24-27" multiscan PC monitor. I would put down cold, hard wads of cash for it right now.

Otherwise, I'm going to have to sign off PC usage until the industry decides to focus on display tech that actually improves on something we've already had for a hundred years.

My condolences. :(
 
This won't be a particularly insightful post; I'd just like to say I read these threads from time to time and cringe when I see the difficulties people are facing purchasing screens nowadays, as it seems there is no panel type or monitor that doesn't have at least 2-3 serious flaws.
I don't consider many of these flaws to be "serious". Of course there is no such thing as a perfect display, and no display technology offers perfect image reproduction. The typical shortcomings of each display technology aren't particularly significant unless your usage absolutely demands image reproduction that's as close to perfect as is technologically feasible. Even then, displays exist to accomodate those needs, assuming your wallet goes deep enough. They are not perfect either, but many of them are certainly spectacular.

I dislike TN technology, but I have no quarrel with buying IPS or PVA displays. Neither are perfect, but neither are bad technologies. Some people do have a habit of obsessing and blowing the slightest flaws completely out of proportion, however, so some people will never be satisfied with a monitor purchase. Technology advances will never solve that, unfortunately.
 
phide said:
no display technology offers perfect image reproduction
IPS with the A-TW polarizer with a smooth anti-glare coating comes very close to being perfect and is technologically feasible. I don't understand why every IPS panel doesn't have those things. I bet that would only cost a few dollars more per panel.

Even without the A-TW polarizer, I still prefer IPS over VA because a contrast shift doesn't affect colors while a gamma shift does. Who cares if black is slightly deeper when the viewing angles are so sensitive to gamma shifting that on a properly-calibrated VA panel, the darker colors (including black) wash out on parts of the screen that aren't directly perpendicular to your eyes even if you're sitting directly in front of the monitor? I don't understand how some people can't see this effect, especially on this forum where gray shifts like caps lock.

BrePu said:
Shadow detail is very bad with it in the bottom left and bottom right corner of all IPS widescreen displays.
If you've been using VA panels, then the problem is you're used to seeing details that shouldn't be easy to see. From a normal viewing position, the glow on IPS panels only obscures the first few shades at most, and only in the bottom corners. The gamma shift on VA panels will allow you to see darker shades easier on those parts of the screen, but you'll be seeing details that shouldn't be easy to see in the first place.

I've also seen a lot of people talk about black crush on VA panels, but on a properly-calibrated VA panel, the crushed part is the correct part. It's the rest of the screen that's showing too much detail due to the gamma shift.

BrePu said:
Everything from EIZO. I haven't seen any of the newest EIZO models out there - some say they aren't as good as they used to be, however, they still are the top of the top in terms of image quality - review sites like PRAD.de confirm that on and on.
With EIZO PVA monitors, you'd be paying a premium for the same gamma shift problems.
 
OP this is what you want :cool: :(

0.1ms responce time, infinite contrast ratio, 100 hertz, super thin form factor .... hurry up LG/Samsung!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GYI1LPCqNI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cuSfwQ8aE0

Panasonic Matsushita OLED-TV
Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. will begin test production of next-generation displays for TVs next year with plans for commercial output as early as 2011, Japan's top business newspaper reported Tuesday.

Matsushita Panasonic brand products has invested 300 billion yen ($2.8 billion) in the plant set to be running by 2010. The Nikkei daily reported test lines will begin early next year with mass production of 40-inch panels likely by 2011
 
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Ya... don't know about that. A friend of mine has a Samsung Galaxy S phone with 4" Super AMOLED screen, basically the latest and the best and there are already signs of burn in after only a couple of months of regular usage. I saw it with my own eyes, there are faint shadows where the notification bar elements are located, especially when you view it against a blue background. OLED is not even close to being ready. Personally, I think it's likely it never will be ready, at least as far as computer monitors go.
 
For what it's worth, I find IPS glow easier to live with than VA gamma shift. Both can be seen sitting right in front of the monitor but still, picture is much more stable on an IPS. If c-PVA panels were made in 27" and 30" sizes it would be even more of a problem. I'm guessing the glow on those pictures is exaggerated by the camera but some VA panels do actually have visible glow.

Couldn't agree more. I can't stand VA gamma shift. I see it in everything including my 40 inch Samsung A650 and it annoys the shit out of me.

I don't mind the IPS glow nearly as much , I would love it if they would coat more IPS panels in the lower cost range in A-TW polarizer but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

OP you have to see it for yourself and make up your own mind , no one here can tell you if you'll mind it or not.
 
The reason some people see it and some people don't is probably because some people never user their monitors in complete darkness. With an all-black screen in a dark room at night, the gamma shift (and the backlight) is really noticeable on my F2380, but with the lights on, i can't see the shift at all. That being said, the shift is clearly noticeable on the grey background of the text on this page, in any light.
 
I'm not sure what to prefer. I have a S-PVA (2007FP) and two IPS (2007FP and 3008WFP) monitors in front of me and I'm not sure I can say that any of them is better.

But it depends...

The thing that makes me favor IPS in most cases though is that IPS is fantastic on everything but blacks. VA might be better overall but it always have something that is nagging (not that much though).

White glow is easily seen even if your right in front of the monitor and that even on a small 20" display and can easily ruin any black scene/image.

The problem is though that all LCDs suffer from horrendous black levels (there's really only in one context that one could say that an LCD doesn't have awful black levels - and thats when it's compared to another LCD), and eventhough the white glow makes it much worse it still would be pretty awful without it and thats what I "like" about IPS. It is only bad in the cases where all LCDs are bad - yes it is much worse but it's so bad it's not much I miss anyway.

I happen to have access to another IPS 2007FP and will replace my S-PVA display with it when I get a chance. But thats more because it will match my other displays and also because white text on black looks better on the IPS (and since it's a secondary display it's mainly used for reading anyway).

It isn't easy to decide though and I might change my opinion if I had access to a larger VA monitor (the main reason for why I was hesitant about the Samsung 305t (and ultimately chose an IPS monitor instead) was because I was afraid that the gamma shift would be much worse on a 30" monitor).


Oh and since all new monitors seem to come with a outrageously bright backlight you will most likely end up turning down the brightness enough to devour any details in the darker end of the scale anyway (not that it justifies white glow, but again it makes it less destructive).
 
IPS could be fantastic on everything but blacks, sadly, the AG coating rapes the lighter 50% of the colors - what renders IPS: entirely pointless.

Fixed that for you.

Don't get me wrong, I own an IPS screen and I personally could live with the IPS glow without the AG coating, but IPS destroys every light scene with its AG coating and every dark scene with its white glow. What's left is something barely better than TN (if you don't take the viewing angles into account).

I personally prefer PVA over IPS mainly because it doesn't have the AG coating and the gamma shift doesn't bother me as much as the white glow. That's my personal opinion and everyone has to decide this thing for himself. I would however prefer IPS without the AG coating over PVA. I could live with the fact that I can only use the inner 75% of my screen in Photoshop, but if I cannot use ANY area for some graphical work it's not tolerable. I currently don't own a PVA screen (I'm still trying to get along with my U2711), so it might look different to me if I'd be using a PVA screen day in and day out.
 
Hmmm,well first of all thanks for response guys, things are starting to clear up a bit now, but there's few more questions i have :)


What interests me most, is the point WHEN this glow starts comes out.
Is it visible only when content is 100% pitch black, or does it starts to annoy also in lighter shades, and if it does, then in what point?

To illustrate my question, lets take this pic, from what shades it generally becomes a problem. (just pick a rough number)

http://www.prad.de/images/monitore/eizo_ev2333wh/EV2333WH_farbstufen.jpg





And speaking of IPS-VA fight,as i understand its a choice basically between, glow, ag coating VS gamma shift, high input lag/response time.

So what you guys think, what would be more suitable for amateur photoshop,and occasional gaming (left 4 dead, tf2) zr24w, u2410, ev2333w, or something else?


OP you have to see it for yourself and make up your own mind , no one here can tell you if you'll mind it or not.

True,i would love to have chance to see these panels with my own eyes,but unfortunately,i haven't spotted any ips nor pva based models in my hometown so far.
Maybe i just haven't looked hard enough, but its just seems to me, that all shops these days are mostly filled with cheap tn samsungs with their 5 megazilliontirillion to 1 contrast ratios and other marketing BS, its a nightmare to find anything decent :/
 
To illustrate my question, lets take this pic, from what shades it generally becomes a problem. (just pick a rough number)[/url]
My room is pretty bright at the moment because the sun shines. I tested some colors at the bottom right corner of my screen and would go with number 4. If it would be darker in my room with only the indirect light of my 2 room lights, it might go up to something like 6. I can test it again tonight if you want to. The white glow changes blue colors more significantly than the other ones. Don't get me wrong, you can work with every color just fine if you just avoid using the bottom right and bottom left corner and always center the part of your image you're currently working on in Photoshop, but for dark blue/gray pictures it's not recommended to use the corners.

And speaking of IPS-VA fight,as i understand its a choice basically between, glow, ag coating VS gamma shift, high input lag/response time.
That's correct with the screens I have seen to date.

So what you guys think, what would be more suitable for amateur photoshop,and occasional gaming (left 4 dead, tf2) zr24w, u2410, ev2333w, or something else?/
I wouldn't recomment the U2410. The ZR24w is fine if you can live with the AG coating (the ZR24w I have seen didn't seem to have an AG coating as bad as my U2711), otherwise go for the EV2333. Make sure to buy somewhere you are be able to send it back without any problems.
 
So what you guys think, what would be more suitable for amateur photoshop,and occasional gaming (left 4 dead, tf2) zr24w, u2410, ev2333w, or something else?
For amateur photoshop and occasional gaming I would say both IPS and VA would be a good choice, you just have to decide which flaws would bother you the least.

Keep in mind that both the IPS glow and VA gamma shift are viewing angle related problems (which is why it makes be laugh when people say TN is fine because "you're not going to be viewing the screen from the floor lolz" but that's another story). Being viewing angle related, it means the screen size and seating distance play a huge part. The further away you go, the lower the angle to the edges and therefore the lower the glow/gamma shift so don't be surprised if you get some very different feedback as to when does the glow become an issue.

For IPS, it's the diagonal viewing angles that are a problem, that's why the glow appears in the corners. For VA, it's more like the entire screen area that isn't close to perpendicular to your view that suffers from gamma shift. My biggest problem with a shifty VA panel is that certain shades for some reason seem to shift more than the others so sometimes each of my eyes sees a different color which confuses the brain and gives me this fake 3D effect that is quite annoying. Granted, not many people notice this but it's one of the main reasons why I switched to IPS. I do wish it had an A-TW polarizer though, I can't imagine it would drive the price up THAT much. So a ZR24w + A-TW polarizer at the price of an U2410? I'd happily pay that much.
 
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