IRS Moves to Close Tax Shelter Used by IBM

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The IRS, for the second time in the last twelve months, has moved to block a tax shelter used by IBM to avoid paying billions ($1.6 billion) in income taxes.

On May 31, the Internal Revenue Service issued a notice declaring that the technique could not be used to eliminate taxes. The notice said it would disallow any transactions beginning on that day. The technique "raises significant policy concerns," the IRS said. The IRS shut down a simpler version of the same shelter in September.
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Come on IBM, nut up and pay your damn taxes just like the rest of us poor souls. I see why so many people big corps like this.
 
Between the layoffs and tax evasion, IBM is making a strong effort to become the shadiest company in the computer industry.

Even without tax shelters, most large corporations pay less than 5% in taxes…. It’s called corporate welfare and it is necessary to ensure that millionaires can reap huge profits from their investments.

Besides, it is the responsibility of cash strapped middle class Americans to bear the majority of the tax burden. That is how our system works! Isn't it great?
 
Well, if the US would adopt a new tax plan this kind of shit wouldn't happen.
 
exactly, if the tax code was actually simple enough to not need a doctorate to read then there wouldn't be as many loopholes.

Was it GM that ended up being owed money a few years ago because their tax rebates outweighed their liability?
 
www.fairtax.org

You want to stop stuff like this, then thats where you head. I say good for IBM that they kept their and shareholder money from the KGB... umm... IRS.


Corporations are nothing but groups of people. IBM gets taxed millions of dollars, and it will show in their prices and stock offerings. How many 401Ks have IBM as a part of the mutual fund or stock?
 
www.fairtax.org has to be the most short sighted thing I've seen in a while.. rich people don't spend money, thats how they got that way and why they stay rich.
 
Eickst said:
Well, if the US would adopt a new tax plan this kind of shit wouldn't happen.
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Adopting a new tax plan for the US? ROFL, I LOL'ed out loud when I read that. We hear about that seemingly every year and REALLY hear about it every four years. I think most of us will be worm food before a reasonable tax reform is done. Notice the keyword "reasonable."
 
deceiver said:
www.fairtax.org has to be the most short sighted thing I've seen in a while.. rich people don't spend money, thats how they got that way and why they stay rich.
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They don't? When they spend they spend.


Of course, they would only purchase one or two cars... however keep in mind those cars are worth 4 times or more than the amount of the average joes.


Rich people does spend money, they have to get a home, transportation, suit, and business purchases from somewhere.
 
Its not even just about the rich people. Shall we start with the millions of people living here that don't pay any taxes b/c they aren't legal, also how about all the money that is "under the table" so to speak that never gets taxed. No matter what, I think the fairtax idea is a great idea, however I don't forsee it ever happening eventhough it work more efficiently. That is until the beaurocrats try to make concessions for this and that so that certain people don't pay too much in taxes for necessities and what not ...

PS There is very very slight chance that property taxes in FL could actual migrate this way as early as this year. **Who knows it could pave the way for politicians to actually wake up and see the difference, oh wait never mind that would require thinking rationally.**
 
Ockie said:
They don't? When they spend they spend.


Of course, they would only purchase one or two cars... however keep in mind those cars are worth 4 times or more than the amount of the average joes.


Rich people does spend money, they have to get a home, transportation, suit, and business purchases from somewhere.
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Oh yes. Let's get into this now. So he buys a car that costs 4 times as much...let's say he buys a Ferrari. Is that a US corporation? Is ALL of that money he spends going directly to the US economy?

Rich people should pay more taxes. Poor people should pay less. It's pretty simple. If you disagree with that, you are rich. If you aren't rich and you still disagree, you're pretty stupid.

Less than 5% of the population controls over 90% of this nations wealth. But the 95% of the population that controls 10% of the wealth pays over 80% of the taxes. How the fuck is that possible?
 
Ockie said:
They don't? When they spend they spend.


Of course, they would only purchase one or two cars... however keep in mind those cars are worth 4 times or more than the amount of the average joes.


Rich people does spend money, they have to get a home, transportation, suit, and business purchases from somewhere.
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True. But, the poorer you are, the more likely you are to spend the majority of your income. And a flat tax rate effects people to different degrees

1. Guy makes 1mil/year, spends 50% of it. 10% tax rate, so he's paying $50K in taxes.

2. Guy makes $20K/year, spends 100% of it. $2K in taxes.

Paying $2K in taxes when you are making $20K is much more of a tax burden than $50K when you're making a million. Even if you assume the richer guy spends all of his too, it's still less of an impact on his ability to survive and live on a day to day basis.
 
Eickst said:
Less than 5% of the population controls over 90% of this nations wealth. But the 95% of the population that controls 10% of the wealth pays over 80% of the taxes. How the fuck is that possible?
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Because you're comparing "controlled wealth" with "income taxes". Assets can't be taxed. The Supreme Court has ruled direct taxes on assets unconstitutional several times. Your income tax burden has nothing to do with the amount of wealth you control. You could control $100 billion in assets, make $0 income in 2007 and pay $0 taxes.

The last numbers I heard were as follows from 2004: The top 5% made 33.4% of the total income and paid 57.1% of the total Federal tax burden. The bottom 50% made 13.4% of the total income and paid 3.3% of the total taxes. Extrapolation says that the bottom 95% made 66.6% of the total income and paid 42.9% of the total taxes. The top 50% made 86.6% of the total income and paid 96.4% of the total taxes.
 
Vertigo Acid said:
True. But, the poorer you are, the more likely you are to spend the majority of your income. And a flat tax rate effects people to different degrees

1. Guy makes 1mil/year, spends 50% of it. 10% tax rate, so he's paying $50K in taxes.

2. Guy makes $20K/year, spends 100% of it. $2K in taxes.

Paying $2K in taxes when you are making $20K is much more of a tax burden than $50K when you're making a million. Even if you assume the richer guy spends all of his too, it's still less of an impact on his ability to survive and live on a day to day basis.
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That's why most flat tax models include a flat return of as much as $2,500 across the board. In other words EVERY INDIVIDUAL would receive a check for $2,500 every year to offset the burden paid by Guy #2 in your example.
 
It's complete bullshit to make 300k a year and have the same standard of living as someone making 100k. That's what happens once you pass that magical
"rich" threshold which is WAY to low. You have no idea how frustrating it is to watch 160k of your income go to taxes when you're trying to come out of massive debt, support a family of five, and have SOME semblance of enjoyment for the increidble amount of work you've done to create the far and away leading company in an industry.

The problem is that people classified as "rich" aren't rich at all. Sure, some are, but I'm in the top 1% of the country income wise and I sure don't feel rich. I don't have a Ferrari. In fact, I'm in debt from college loans and a variety of stupid decisions I made when I was younger (including excessive use of credit cards simply to live). I've been in the position of having to feed my family off of donations and it wasn't fun. So excuse me if I think that after years and years of hard work I have a right to more than 40% of my paycheck and to more "toys" and "enjoyment" than someone working half as hard and making 100k does. But hey, I'd settle for a table for my formal dining room at this point.

When the company sells, then I will be rightly classified as "wealthy". But until then, my family is decidedly middle class in terms of the cars we drive, the house we have, and the debt we owe. The income tax as it stands and the IRS are just plain criminal.
 
computerpro3 said:
It's complete bullshit to make 300k a year and have the same standard of living as someone making 100k. That's what happens once you pass that magical
"rich" threshold which is WAY to low. You have no idea how frustrating it is to watch 160k of your income go to taxes when you're trying to come out of massive debt, support a family of five, and have SOME semblance of enjoyment for the increidble amount of work you've done to create the far and away leading company in an industry.

The problem is that people classified as "rich" aren't rich at all. Sure, some are, but I'm in the top 1% of the country income wise and I sure don't feel rich. I don't have a Ferrari. In fact, I'm in debt from college loans and a variety of stupid decisions I made when I was younger (including excessive use of credit cards simply to live). I've been in the position of having to feed my family off of donations and it wasn't fun. So excuse me if I think that after years and years of hard work I have a right to more than 40% of my paycheck and to more "toys" and "enjoyment" than someone working half as hard and making 100k does. But hey, I'd settle for a table for my formal dining room at this point.

When the company sells, then I will be rightly classified as "wealthy". But until then, my family is decidedly middle class in terms of the cars we drive, the house we have, and the debt we owe. The income tax as it stands and the IRS are just plain criminal.
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ORLY?

So you mess your life up when you're younger and the government is the bastard? You have to bust your ass to get back to where you aren't in debt? Really, grow up. There are people that work 10x harder than anyone on this forum that make god damn $6.50 an hour. The statement that people who make 100k/year work half as hard as you is the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my fucking life. If you think that this society is really based off work for reward, then why the hell is the guy digging ditches for 8 hours a day making less than you sitting in a chair?
 
computerpro3 said:
It's complete bullshit to make 300k a year and have the same standard of living as someone making 100k. That's what happens once you pass that magical
"rich" threshold which is WAY to low. You have no idea how frustrating it is to watch 160k of your income go to taxes when you're trying to come out of massive debt, support a family of five, and have SOME semblance of enjoyment for the increidble amount of work you've done to create the far and away leading company in an industry.

The problem is that people classified as "rich" aren't rich at all. Sure, some are, but I'm in the top 1% of the country income wise and I sure don't feel rich. I don't have a Ferrari. In fact, I'm in debt from college loans and a variety of stupid decisions I made when I was younger (including excessive use of credit cards simply to live). I've been in the position of having to feed my family off of donations and it wasn't fun. So excuse me if I think that after years and years of hard work I have a right to more than 40% of my paycheck and to more "toys" and "enjoyment" than someone working half as hard and making 100k does. But hey, I'd settle for a table for my formal dining room at this point.

When the company sells, then I will be rightly classified as "wealthy". But until then, my family is decidedly middle class in terms of the cars we drive, the house we have, and the debt we owe. The income tax as it stands and the IRS are just plain criminal.
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You're a complete moron for not seeking the advice of a competent financial advisor and tax attorney.

Also, the world owes you nothing. Deal with it. Better yet, take up residence in another nation with tax laws you find more palatable.
 
computerpro3 said:
It's complete bullshit to make 300k a year and have the same standard of living as someone

<snip waaah waaah snip>
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And while we're at it, why don't we point out that you're in a mess due to your own poor decision-making abilities.
 
mrjminer said:
ORLY?

There are people that work 10x harder than anyone on this forum that make god damn $6.50 an hour. The statement that people who make 100k/year work half as hard as you is the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my fucking life. If you think that this society is really based off work for reward, then why the hell is the guy digging ditches for 8 hours a day making less than you sitting in a chair?
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Way to lay it down!

I am sick and tired of people complaining that despite making over 100K a year, they are barely getting by. Obviously, people deserve to be rewarded for all the time and effort they put into getting an education or starting a business.
However, is the CEO making $1M or more really working 20 times harder than the teacher earning less than 50K? I don't think so.

The bottom line is that the wealthy can afford to pay a larger percentage of the taxes. They pay the same tax rates as the rest of us to on their first 50K (what most of us have to get by with). Who cares if the rest of their money is getting taxed at a higher %?? They still have more than enough to live comfortably. If you are making more than 100K and not living like a king, you need to sit down with a competent financial manager.

(I make less than 40K and live a great life. If I actually made 300K a year, it would all go into saving so I could retire when I am 35).
 
stonedwaldo420 said:
Way to lay it down!

I am sick and tired of people complaining that despite making over 100K a year, they are barely getting by. Obviously, people deserve to be rewarded for all the time and effort they put into getting an education or starting a business.
However, is the CEO making $1M or more really working 20 times harder than the teacher earning less than 50K? I don't think so.

The bottom line is that the wealthy can afford to pay a larger percentage of the taxes. They pay the same tax rates as the rest of us to on their first 50K (what most of us have to get by with). Who cares if the rest of their money is getting taxed at a higher %?? They still have more than enough to live comfortably. If you are making more than 100K and not living like a king, you need to sit down with a competent financial manager.

(I make less than 40K and live a great life. If I actually made 300K a year, it would all go into saving so I could retire when I am 35).
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I agree with most of what oyu said except the 100k and living like a king. Do you live in Southern California? I make over 100k and can't buy a house yet.
 
This is very common in the buisness world and is a byproduct of a flawed tax system. I personally think that the current system should be scrapped; because of it's many flaws and the billions is eats to comply with and just go with a straight finished goods sales tax. All the taxes that businesses pay gets built into the end products cost anyway.
 
Eickst said:
Well, if the US would adopt a new tax plan this kind of shit wouldn't happen.
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That would be so easy. I don't think the government will ever go for something like that. :eek:

bbenz3 said:
Its not even just about the rich people. Shall we start with the millions of people living here that don't pay any taxes b/c they aren't legal, also how about all the money that is "under the table" so to speak that never gets taxed. No matter what, I think the fairtax idea is a great idea, however I don't forsee it ever happening eventhough it work more efficiently. That is until the beaurocrats try to make concessions for this and that so that certain people don't pay too much in taxes for necessities and what not ...

PS There is very very slight chance that property taxes in FL could actual migrate this way as early as this year. **Who knows it could pave the way for politicians to actually wake up and see the difference, oh wait never mind that would require thinking rationally.**
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QFT man. There are tons of people here illegally who don't / don't want to pay taxes. Boo!
 
The sad thing:
Most people don't realize the IRS has no legal authority to collect taxes. Go ahead, read the Statues and Regulations of the Congress. The average American has no obligation to pay taxes. Of course, the word "voluntary" is on the tax forms for this very reason (otherwise they (IRS) would be lying).

For links to the actual regulations:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/index.php/Income_tax
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi...perTemplate=cfr_wrapper2.html&WAISmaxHits=120

The IRS is an illegal entity who only takes orders from the World and Central banks. Really. Before you argue this point, read the law regarding taxation in the U.S. Let me mind you that you have to delve pretty deep into the Regulations to find what the definition of taxable income is.

Don't stop researching after reading that Cornell link, because they only provide you with the surface language which only appears to say everybody is taxable. But of course the Congress defines each word to mean something specific.

Of course, IBM does have a legally taxable gross income (defined in the regulations as income derived from Foreign trade and profits).

But can you fault IBM for such a screwed up tax system? The IRS is the equivalent to any other organized crime group. They extort and find reasons (and make up reasons) to take away your earned money. They spread FUD and illegally take peoples property.

Why does the U.S. allow our money to be printed by the Federal Reserve? Our fiat money is worthless comparatively to the original U.S. Gold backed dollar. Why should we pay interest to the IRS/Federal reserve to print our own money? LAWL

An interesting video on my site:
http://ordorica.org/video
America: Freedom to Fascism

What we need in the U.S. to to have a simple and fair tax that everybody follows. There shouldn't be a need for some behemoth like the IRS Book (not even tax professionals could possibly know all fake laws contained within).

/end rant
 
I have a financial planner.

But to all of you saying that you can live like a king with $100k, you are an absolute fool. That may be true in bumfucksville, TX, but where I live, that won't even buy a quarter acre of land. If what you were saying was true, than even people on teacher's salaries (50-70k) would be living like "princes". Talk to them and see how they are doing.

What all of you are missing is that if you make a lot of money, you don't want to live like a college student or a poor person. Sure, you can be rich if you rent a shitty apartment and drive a honda, but then what's the point of making the money in the first place? Of course saving is important, you have to live too.
 
What is a lot of money really depends on where you live. In the midwest you can live fairly comfortably on 30-50k per spouse of individually. Have a descent house, a descent car, etc. If you live in new york city and make that much you're one poor SOB. The cost of living is everything.
 
i make over 31k a year and about 40% of my pay after taxes goes into my apartment. i'm glad i don't have a car note
 
Are you serious? Was there some sarcasm I missed there or something?
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you better believe it, check out this quote from another poster:

(I make less than 40K and live a great life. If I actually made 300K a year, it would all go into saving so I could retire when I am 35).
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Now considder the poster that makes 300k a year to support a family of five. he is not wealthy because of debts and large number of dependents. It also sounds like he will never be "rich" because he has too high of a standard of living. it is your standard of living, and not so much your income that determines if you finish rich.

I know of 3 people personally who live dirt poor with well over a million in the bank each. They invest money, work hard for money, but they don't spend a dime (going to get free coffee in places, taking napkins when they leave, driving the same car they had 20 years ago, etc)
 
deceiver said:
you better believe it, check out this quote from another poster:



Now considder the poster that makes 300k a year to support a family of five. he is not wealthy because of debts and large number of dependents. It also sounds like he will never be "rich" because he has too high of a standard of living. it is your standard of living, and not so much your income that determines if you finish rich.

I know of 3 people personally who live dirt poor with well over a million in the bank each. They invest money, work hard for money, but they don't spend a dime (going to get free coffee in places, taking napkins when they leave, driving the same car they had 20 years ago, etc)
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It is one thing to make sacrifices for yourself in the short term to ultimately come out on top, but it is another thing entirely when you have four people depending on you.
The fact that I live in one of the most expensive areas of the entire country doesn't help either.
 
Hmm... Any surveyors in the house? everyday, in my job I have to be an engineer, a park ranger, a mathematician, and lets not forget the ever so important hard laborer( I.E. if there is 2miles of nasty Florida swamp and underbrush in between me and my destination I break out a machete and start chopping) I make about 20k a year. I have a house, a boat, a sports car and a family sedan. my house is a double wide, my sports car is a shitty 1984 camaro, my boat is a 10 foot alumina craft with a trolling motor, and my family sedan is a rather nice car that my father gave me. Taxes suck. still, my only bitch about it is that I don't get a statement every year telling me what my money goes to. Hell, they couldn't tell you if they wanted to. That is the real scam.
 
mrjminer said:
ORLY?
The statement that people who make 100k/year work half as hard as you is the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my fucking life. ?
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Actually, the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life is your statement, considering I've never said that.

And hard work means nothing if you're not working smart. You could be the hardest worker in the world and get nowhere if you're stupid and can't market yourself.
 
computerpro3 said:
It's complete bullshit to make 300k a year and have the same standard of living as someone making 100k. That's what happens once you pass that magical
"rich" threshold which is WAY to low. You have no idea how frustrating it is to watch 160k of your income go to taxes when you're trying to come out of massive debt, support a family of five, and have SOME semblance of enjoyment for the increidble amount of work you've done to create the far and away leading company in an industry.

The problem is that people classified as "rich" aren't rich at all. Sure, some are, but I'm in the top 1% of the country income wise and I sure don't feel rich. I don't have a Ferrari. In fact, I'm in debt from college loans and a variety of stupid decisions I made when I was younger (including excessive use of credit cards simply to live). I've been in the position of having to feed my family off of donations and it wasn't fun. So excuse me if I think that after years and years of hard work I have a right to more than 40% of my paycheck and to more "toys" and "enjoyment" than someone working half as hard and making 100k does. But hey, I'd settle for a table for my formal dining room at this point.

When the company sells, then I will be rightly classified as "wealthy". But until then, my family is decidedly middle class in terms of the cars we drive, the house we have, and the debt we owe. The income tax as it stands and the IRS are just plain criminal.
Click to expand...

Wah... My dad's doing just fine supporting a family of 6 on $70K a year. If you're making $300K a year and $160K of that is going to taxes, you still keep DOUBLE of my dad's PRE-TAX pay. If you can't support a family of 6 on that then you're doing something wrong.
 
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