Is it just me or does Creative suck?

[Donnie27]

Except that I could still get updates for the 32-bit version of XP. Creative, on the other hand, doesn't do a whole lot to support older hardware. Look at how long the A2ZS drivers for x64 have been broken (try loading up Doom 3's EAX support with them - positional audio all gets dumped to a single speaker).

Ironically, I just bought an A2ZS earlier this year. Know why? Because the Audigy 1 drivers were out of date. Thanks, Creative!

You're still talking about 64bit and didn't answer the question. I didn't have any 32bit problems with my Audigy 2 ZS from Day one, sorry!

My Audigy 1 is in my wife's computer and goes almost un-used. The Audigy 2 didn't need any friggen updates either. The Audigy 2, who I bought from a Bud with an nForce-2 finnaly replaced my TB Santa Cruz. Same Crap, the card was called a POS and sold to me at a discount. That card worked perfectly in my computer even as it choked his. I've seen the cards work in SIS and VIA chipsets even as it choked *some nForce 2 and 3 boards. You hear about far fewer problems on Intel Chipsets. To make this clear as a Bell, I thought the Audigy 1 Sucked then and still think sucks now!

Creative and id were in Court when Doom3 launched, that's why Doom3 didn't have EAX support and if IIRC, that was over graphics tech, sheesh!

The whole 64bit issue is legit but trying to say some one sucks for it is kind of a joke and a Double standard. So did AMD suck for shipping 64bit and charging a premium before MS was ready? No, I didn't think so.

Donnie27

 

[Donnie27]

Whoa, there, killer. The ENVY24HT chip is an incredible chip and is superior to anything Creative has EVER put out. It's not even close. VIA is not responsible for the chip design either, they acquired the company who was making them for years, IC Ensemble. They pretty much slapped their logo on it after that, and made some budget variants. This was THE audiophile controller back in those days, and it continues to be today under VIA. Observe the following statistic:

Envy24 based Egosys Juli@ drivers: 175 kilobyte zip file. I repeat. 175KB."">>

When I said Envy, I damned sure meant VIA's versions or spin-offs just as I wouldn't Call an EMU CARD Creative=P Though clearly Creative owns them now.

Creative: no full download package from site, they force cd installs. God knows how many MB from CD. Then you must update from the web, at 5MB+ a piece. The updates alone are 25 times larger than the Juli@s entire driver package. Want to know what bloat and inefficiency is? You found it.

So you didn't read where I said I liked Juli@? So can Julia do EAX 3, 4 and 5 or other 3D hardware acceleration? We're talking about Gamer cards here. There is a minium install even as none users think otherwise.

People are clueless about today's computer audio solutions. The typical gamer treats audio cards like video cards. They think Creative is the Nvidia or ATI of audio. The reality is:

Creatives DACs suck (the actual component that determines sound output quality)
their cards are overpriced
their drivers are bloated and buggy
their cards are humongous and poorly designed, consume more power and have more IRQ issues.
their "hardware acceleration" for features like eax are becoming useless as CPUs become insanely powerful and able to do the same software based.

Then it is not "People" who are Clueless, it is easily those who never used the card who are LOL! Saying the DAC suck is a reach to start with. If Creative Cards worked as Conduets for the CPU like your other favorites, then they could get away with 127K driver packages. Since Creative's cards are Audio Processors, they do have to draw power for 400MHz 10,000 mips processor, hogg the PCI BUS, are Busmaster Devices, require an IRQ and those features AREN'T PHUCKING FREE, geesh!

I'd be more pissed off If I bought Card that's nothing more than *front end for the CPU and Paid that much. Like my Bud's $117 (at the time of Purchase) M-Audio or the other $106.95 HDA-M.

The typical gamer treats Creative Cards as similar to Video cards because they know M-Audio or HDA-M and other 3D Hardwareless Cards or on board can't do Occlusion, Obstruction, Elevation, Different Environments and Transisions between those effects. The card does for any given Sound what a Video card does for a Pixel. Only someone NOT using the card wouldn't know that.

If people just looked at audio for what it is... there is no "pixel shader" for sound. It's a friggin change in air pressure. It doesn't change remarkably every year like 3d apps. Buy a good envy24 solution and tell creative and their team of design retards and marketing geniuses to screw off.

See above LOL!?

Tech Report

XtremeMusic can be had for as little as $110 online. At that price, it's certainly affordable, although still more expensive than a $65 Audigy2 ZS or $80 Revolution 7.1. We think the premium is justified in both cases. The Revolution 7.1, for example, lacks hardware acceleration for 3D audio and DVD-Audio support. It doesn't sound as good as the XtremeMusic, either. Considering that Revolution's generally excellent playback quality has made it one of our favorites for quite some time, the fact that the XtremeMusic surpasses it says a lot.

Many more sites have said the same thing. That leaves Nay Sayers such as yourself being the ones who are mistaken or living in some Alternate reality.

Donnie27

 

[OrAnGe]

I've had an SB Live 5.1, Audigy 2 ZS, and X-fi Xtreme Music. Every single one of them crackles and pops like a piece. I've changed IRQ's by changing what PCI slot its in. I've tried every driver known to man. I've used different mobo's, different power supplys, i've installed the drivers in 40 different ways. I've tried different speakers and headphones. I've tried damn near everything and everyone of these cards has some sort of shitty static at different points in time.

Loud noises in games = Pop crack pop sizzle crack crack SCREW CREATIVE...

But....... I still use it because EAX is what all the developers seem to be using and the cards don't tax your system like others. POP CRACK SIZZLE TILL THE END OF TIME YAYYYYYYYYY PIECE OF SHIT CARDS.

 

[Kevin Lowe]

The whole 64bit issue is legit but trying to say some one sucks for it is kind of a joke and a Double standard. So did AMD suck for shipping 64bit and charging a premium before MS was ready? No, I didn't think so.

Creative has a long history of driver issues. This is a driver issue. I'm not seeing how they shouldn't be taken to task for it. Besides, ATI had drivers ready on time. Nvidia had drivers ready very nearly on time. In fact, all of my hardware has decent x64 drivers - except for my A2ZS. And I'd be willing to accept paying for an upgrade, if they'd release decent X-Fi x64 drivers. I mean, come on - if they want to sell to the enthusiast market, do they really think their target market isn't going to have a lot of x64 users?

And I'd say Microsoft sucks for not having x64 ready when AMD launched, except that an entire operating system is a hell of a lot more complex than an audio driver, so the duration of an understandable delay is a lot longer. So, MS gets off the hook for this one due to the sheer complexity of what they were trying to pull off.

 

[Soul.Survivor]

Yea, that pop and crack stuff gets old but it's much better than hearing a pop and a crackle then getting a lag spike up the butt like I had when using onboard sound. And those via envy cards look like onboard sound on steroids. Not for me, thanks.

 

[BBA]

I think in order to technically and correctly answer the question asked in the topic of this post (and to stay on topic);

I would have to say it is not just YOU, it is MANY!!!

 

[Elios]

Creative has a long history of driver issues. This is a driver issue. I'm not seeing how they shouldn't be taken to task for it. Besides, ATI had drivers ready on time. Nvidia had drivers ready very nearly on time. In fact, all of my hardware has decent x64 drivers - except for my A2ZS. And I'd be willing to accept paying for an upgrade, if they'd release decent X-Fi x64 drivers. I mean, come on - if they want to sell to the enthusiast market, do they really think their target market isn't going to have a lot of x64 users?

And I'd say Microsoft sucks for not having x64 ready when AMD launched, except that an entire operating system is a hell of a lot more complex than an audio driver, so the duration of an understandable delay is a lot longer. So, MS gets off the hook for this one due to the sheer complexity of what they were trying to pull off.

this is not the frist time thay have been late with drivers back when XP came out it was months befor thay had drivers for the Live! and Audigy

 

[Donnie27]

Creative has a long history of driver issues. This is a driver issue. I'm not seeing how they shouldn't be taken to task for it. Besides, ATI had drivers ready on time. Nvidia had drivers ready very nearly on time. In fact, all of my hardware has decent x64 drivers - except for my A2ZS. And I'd be willing to accept paying for an upgrade, if they'd release decent X-Fi x64 drivers. I mean, come on - if they want to sell to the enthusiast market, do they really think their target market isn't going to have a lot of x64 users?

And I'd say Microsoft sucks for not having x64 ready when AMD launched, except that an entire operating system is a hell of a lot more complex than an audio driver, so the duration of an understandable delay is a lot longer. So, MS gets off the hook for this one due to the sheer complexity of what they were trying to pull off.

The enthusiast Market and 64bit are NOT the same=P Many 64bit Intel and AMD users aren't limited to 64bit. Most gamers I know are not using Win64bit for Games. Others I know are even Dual booting 32 and 64 bit WinXP/64.

Sure they've had problems and I pointed that out many posts before. Hell, HDA-M and M-Audio had problems as well. ATI used to have crappy video card drivers and still have shakey OpenGL drivers.

I didn't like the drivers for the first Soundblaster Live, it was 5 months before I got that computer stable, I was lucky it was NOT my only computer at the time. Some of my buds had worse luck. Audigy 1 just seem to drag my system down even when only the base drivers were installed. I worked on some one else's system and heard the Audigy 2 or I might have never tried or got that one that didn't work on my bud's rig. I was happy with my TB SC. I say again, I've bought crap from all Hardware companies at one time or another.

The Audigy drivers have improved just as Audigy 2's hardware improved over Audigy 1, so did the drivers. Audigy 2 ZS's drivers and hardware again improved over Audigy 2 as well. With the Creative Minimum Install, the card is almost transparent to the system. The X-Fi had good drivers can be said. Yes it sucks that 64bit Drivers isn't ready and something Creative lied about. Yet that is a very small 64bit market.

MS getting off the hook or not is MOOT. The point was not having a 64bit OS didn't stop folks from buying Athlon64 Processors. The other point was there AREN'T a lot of 64bit software to speak of. The X-Fi is still NEW and hardly has its feet wet.

Donnie27

 

[BBA]

Good points Donnie.

I would like to add: Just because a new product isn't perfect, does not mean it should have never been created. It's still an advancement and as such, the developers deserve credit for their acheivements.

Seems too many people are willing to slam anything without regard to relevancy in todays society.

 

[Uncle Jim]

Even when the Poll item "This Poll Sucks" was in place, that and the item "Creative does not suck" combined only had about 30% of the votes. I guess that says more than anything else I can add.

I still wonder what happend to the 17% of votes that said (on 14th) "this poll
sucks". This option has been removed when its popularity was about to hit 1/5 of votes which disqualifies the survey in normal circumstances...
Combine this 17% with 29% who said that CL "does not suck" and you are getting 46% - quite distant number from "about 30%"
Elementary maths probs?
Or this poll has been manipulated in quite an obvious manner?

 

[Donnie27]

Good points Donnie.

I would like to add: Just because a new product isn't perfect, does not mean it should have never been created. It's still an advancement and as such, the developers deserve credit for their acheivements.

Seems too many people are willing to slam anything without regard to relevancy in todays society.

Thanks!

Donnie27

 

[johto]

FitzRoy: I liked your post...i pretty much think the same way. Oh, and I have integrated card too, feeding digital to juli's DAC for game purposes so i can get best compability + SQ.

 

[Kevin Lowe]

MS getting off the hook or not is MOOT. The point was not having a 64bit OS didn't stop folks from buying Athlon64 Processors. The other point was there AREN'T a lot of 64bit software to speak of. The X-Fi is still NEW and hardly has its feet wet.

Except for one thing: now that the X-Fi is out, owners of older cards - even the A2ZS - are going to be relegated to the back of the line for driver updates. If you're not running Creative's latest and greatest, you'll get the bare minimum of support. To bring ATI or Nvidia up again, even if you're running a GeForce4 or Radeon 8500, you're still receiving driver updates, even for x64. Creative drags its feet on supporting older hardware - how many months did it take to get a Live! driver for x64?

So, I'm now in the position of owning poorly-supported hardware that I bought six months ago, and having no support for new hardware, despite being willing to pony up the $129 for an X-Fi. Pick one or the other, please, Creative.

And if MS' delay in providing x64 is a moot point, then why did you bring it up in the first place?

BBA: I'm not saying that the X-Fi should not have been created, or that it's not an advancement. My opinion on this topic is merely that Creative could not get away with such poor support if there were another serious player in the gaming sound card market. Unfortunately, they buried their (IMO, superior) competitor in litigation, so instead of the healthy competition we have between ATI and Nvidia, we have the current situation.

 

[Dan_D]

this is not the frist time thay have been late with drivers back when XP came out it was months befor thay had drivers for the Live! and Audigy

No it wasn't. The OS shipped with Sound Blaster Live! drivers. Later versions of the Live! such as the Sound Blaster Live! Platinum 5.1 didn't. They did ship with the right drivers on release though. The Audigy wasn't out when the OS was released if I recall correctly, and when it did come out, it shipped with XP drivers.

Since Windows XP Professional x64 Edition came out three months ago at least, there is no excuse for the XF-I cards not comming with the driver. Especially since they already committed to XP x64 support by creating Sound Blaster Live! and Audigy 1/2 drivers for it.

 

[Elios]

No it wasn't. The OS shipped with Sound Blaster Live! drivers. Later versions of the Live! such as the Sound Blaster Live! Platinum 5.1 didn't. They did ship with the right drivers on release though. The Audigy wasn't out when the OS was released if I recall correctly, and when it did come out, it shipped with XP drivers.

Since Windows XP Professional x64 Edition came out three months ago at least, there is no excuse for the XF-I cards not comming with the driver. Especially since they already committed to XP x64 support by creating Sound Blaster Live! and Audigy 1/2 drivers for it.

it shiped with very basic ones not full driver sure you had sound but EAX and just about every thing else didnt work till thay came out with real ones

 

[BBA]

now that the X-Fi is out, owners of older cards - even the A2ZS - are going to be relegated to the back of the line for driver updates.

BBA: I'm not saying that the X-Fi should not have been created, or that it's not an advancement. My opinion on this topic is merely that Creative could not get away with such poor support if there were another serious player in the gaming sound card market. Unfortunately, they buried their (IMO, superior) competitor in litigation, so instead of the healthy competition we have between ATI and Nvidia, we have the current situation.

The thing is, the Audigy2ZS has pretty good driver support as is, so it will not need as much attention as the newer cards will.

As far as Creative support, they have helped me resolve an audio related issues with drivers correctly and on the first reply (that was a distortion problem in a game, turned out their advice of searching for rogue OpenAL installations and removing them was correct)


But, in any case, just remember, back in the day, nvidia swallowed it's competition as well, and someone else came along. It's a pattern of corporations, not technicians and programmers.

 

[Kevin Lowe]

But, in any case, just remember, back in the day, nvidia swallowed it's competition as well, and someone else came along. It's a pattern of corporations, not technicians and programmers.

Except that Nvidia swallowed 3dfx in the end because of poor execution on 3dfx's part. Choosing FSAA over T&L, going it alone in the board market, dragging their feet on Rampage... no one trips up that much and survives. Aureal, on the other hand, had a solid product, a good API, and a lot of respect from gamers. They would have been just fine, except for that patent lawsuit - the one they won, but that drained their finances in the process.

And so now, we have a situation where EAX support is so entrenched that no one can take Creative on, and where no other card has a recent EAX implementation. It's been 5 years since Creative bought Aureal, and the closest thing we've had to a challenger has been SoundStorm (now dead) and the Envy24 (good, cheap, but limited EAX support).

 

[Donnie27]

Except for one thing: now that the X-Fi is out, owners of older cards - even the A2ZS - are going to be relegated to the back of the line for driver updates. If you're not running Creative's latest and greatest, you'll get the bare minimum of support. To bring ATI or Nvidia up again, even if you're running a GeForce4 or Radeon 8500, you're still receiving driver updates, even for x64. Creative drags its feet on supporting older hardware - how many months did it take to get a Live! driver for x64?

So, I'm now in the position of owning poorly-supported hardware that I bought six months ago, and having no support for new hardware, despite being willing to pony up the $129 for an X-Fi. Pick one or the other, please, Creative.

And if MS' delay in providing x64 is a moot point, then why did you bring it up in the first place?

There wasn't a MS 64bit OS or much in the way of software to support it. People still bought hammers. Same goes for X-Fi right now.

I installed an old AWE 64 the other day and the drivers still worked LOL!

No, the unified Drivers have caused problems for older cards, what are talking about? Installed an old VIA 694 based mobo, any 4 in 1s above 4.5 are a no no=P Again, many of Creative's problems can be traced to POS VIA and even the first nForce 4 motherboards. 686B is worse than anything Creative ever brought out=P

I have an Audigy 1 installed on my Wife's old i850 and RAMBUS, it works but barely.

Question? Just how much of the market do you think is using Win64?

I disagree with you talking about most Gamers use it, it's been known to slow some games down. Since the Audigy 2 launched, there has been a marked improvement in Creative's Drivers and install package flexibility. Are they perfect, NO! At least my mic works. When I set up the card, then reboot, the settings stick! None of the 20 games I've tried crashes. Same can be said for my old Audigy 2 ZS. Same can't be said for Creative competition. No, Creative doesn't Suck, might not be great, but who in the hell is? Just got through running CoD2 in EAX 3 for a bud to hear.

Donnie27

 

[Donnie27]

Except that Nvidia swallowed 3dfx in the end because of poor execution on 3dfx's part. Choosing FSAA over T&L, going it alone in the board market, dragging their feet on Rampage... no one trips up that much and survives. Aureal, on the other hand, had a solid product, a good API, and a lot of respect from gamers. They would have been just fine, except for that patent lawsuit - the one they won, but that drained their finances in the process.

NOT AT ALL BUDDY! Gamers liked Aureal, myself included and owned at least 3 of their cards. What Gamers liked, the rest of the market didn't, too complex they said. Aureal was in the red long before Creative was taken to Court.

Aureal DIDN'T have a large part of the market to support them or others would have signed the licenses and paid them fees that they need to recoup their R&D.

And so now, we have a situation where EAX support is so entrenched that no one can take Creative on, and where no other card has a recent EAX implementation. It's been 5 years since Creative bought Aureal, and the closest thing we've had to a challenger has been SoundStorm (now dead) and the Envy24 (good, cheap, but limited EAX support).

First of all, Soundstorm was NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING. None of the other cards do hardware processing and encoding Dolby Digital of a CMedia or Realtech stream sucks for games. SO Envy24x, CMedia, Realtech and Yamaha/Philips or etc.. is their own worse enemy. Intel, AMD, nVidia, ATI or anyone could have bought not only Aureal, but Sensura, EMU and any of the other at least 5 companies Creative bought up.

So Creative should put itself out of business by giving away the Code for EAX 3, 4 and 5? So if Companies can't get Dolby Digital Live free, what makes folks Creative should do the same. Then if the Processor could process this code, then who'd need a card? Yup, Creative should please who don't like them by killing themself.

There wouldn't be an AMD had they not bought up their tech and even hired away key players from their partners. Hell, Hector Ruiz was stolen from Motoralla after AMD promised not to do such a thing. Paid Motorolla 10 million to settle. They bought up Alchemy, NexGen and used Dirk Meyer and an old Alpha Team to build the Hammers, so they SUCK TOO right? Or are we supposed to hold Creative to a spearate standard? These are companies, they do what companies do and they really don't suck for doing that. I don't have any Creative Labs Driver problems. Clearly that doesn't mean Creative is perfect.

Donnie27

 

[Chastity]

I've had an SB Live 5.1, Audigy 2 ZS, and X-fi Xtreme Music. Every single one of them crackles and pops like a piece. I've changed IRQ's by changing what PCI slot its in. I've tried every driver known to man. I've used different mobo's, different power supplys, i've installed the drivers in 40 different ways. I've tried different speakers and headphones. I've tried damn near everything and everyone of these cards has some sort of shitty static at different points in time.

Loud noises in games = Pop crack pop sizzle crack crack SCREW CREATIVE...

But....... I still use it because EAX is what all the developers seem to be using and the cards don't tax your system like others. POP CRACK SIZZLE TILL THE END OF TIME YAYYYYYYYYY PIECE OF SHIT CARDS.

Sounds to me a sharing issue. Try lowering the Latency value on your Video card to something like 128 or 96.

BTW, if you are going to whine about a hardwareissue, post some info about your setup, like mobo and such, so you can actually get some help.

 

[Kevin Lowe]

When did I say that Creative should give away EAX? I'm saying that, were there another major player in the market, a less vendor-dependent API like DS3D would have assumed prominence, just like when Glide and Redline died off as OpenGL and Direct3D took over.

So, where's the competition in this market? Where's the decent gaming card that I can choose as an alternative to Creative? Where's the company willing to meet my needs, if Creative won't? (The size of the x64 market is irrelevant - if it were too small to be worth serving, then why would ATI and Nvidia bother with it?)

Also, let's not use the fact that Via can't do unified drivers as proof that they can't be done. ATI and Nvidia are having no trouble with it.

Last, but not least, you indicate that Aureal took Creative to court in your post. That's wrong. Creative sued Aureal, draining their resources to make them a takeover target. Aureal did in fact countersue, but this was after Creative attacked them.

 

[BBA]

So, where's the competition in this market? Where's the decent gaming card that I can choose as an alternative to Creative? Where's the company willing to meet my needs, if Creative won't? (The size of the x64 market is irrelevant - if it were too small to be worth serving, then why would ATI and Nvidia bother with it?)

Good questions, where are they?

Well, I can't say where the other makers plan on being in the future, but Creative didn't buy EVERY sound card company that exists now ( or at least hasn't bought them yet ) but they are the only sound card company making cards to fit the needs of gamers and enthusiasts: Such as hardware accelerated DS3D and OpenAL, plus fairly comprehensive music format support and such.

No support for 64 bit means nothing at this point in time, simply because none of the other companies have produced a 64 bit ultra modern gaming card either.

I see a trend here: CL makes game cards that do a ton of stuff that no other sound card makers products do.

Yep, it's Creatives fault I guess.

 

[Donnie27]

When did I say that Creative should give away EAX? I'm saying that, were there another major player in the market, a less vendor-dependent API like DS3D would have assumed prominence, just like when Glide and Redline died off as OpenGL and Direct3D took over.

So, where's the competition in this market? Where's the decent gaming card that I can choose as an alternative to Creative? Where's the company willing to meet my needs, if Creative won't? (The size of the x64 market is irrelevant - if it were too small to be worth serving, then why would ATI and Nvidia bother with it?)

Also, let's not use the fact that Via can't do unified drivers as proof that they can't be done. ATI and Nvidia are having no trouble with it.

Last, but not least, you indicate that Aureal took Creative to court in your post. That's wrong. Creative sued Aureal, draining their resources to make them a takeover target. Aureal did in fact countersue, but this was after Creative attacked them.

Folks pay fees to Dolby for DDL, so they should either pay or trade for Creative's IP If chipset makers could add it, Creative have to still make enough profits to get some of those millions invested back. Creative did talk about selling X-Fi chips to everyone (OEM's) wanting them. Yet, they'd rather spend little as possible for C-Media or Realtech.

You're right Creative did sue first. Keep in mind that Aureal did warn Creative they would sue them, they just threw the first punch. I was on Aureal's side. Read some of the stuff that constantly said on this forum? My favorite one is, "Creative couldn't copy Wave Tracing Tech, it was too complex". Aureal settled with Creative. They are like the Borg LOL! Many thought Intel would snap up Aureal.

Last but not least, ATI or nVidia are NOT spending the same amount of time on 64bit as they are on 32bit. Then again, we're talking about Audio, not Graphics. Look at how long to took to get good full 32bit XP drivers of all kinds? No one saw Problems PCI-E might cause with sound cards.

If Creative sucks in this case, then they all do. All companies have had Chumps and Champs, hardware and drivers. Now if you want to say they all suck, I might go along with you.

Donnie27

 

[BBA]

If Creative sucks in this case, then they all do. All companies have had Chumps and Champs, hardware and drivers. Now if you want to say they all suck, I might go along with you.

Donnie27

Notice:

I think in order to technically and correctly answer the question asked in the topic of this post (and to stay on topic);

I would have to say it is not just YOU, it is MANY!!!

I was surprised no one really noticed that as the only intended result.

 

[Mister X]

As soon as the forum members start quoting themselves it becomes time for the thread to die.

And since the Poll is closed I see no point in continuing the discussion it created.