Is it REALLY worth it for me? Pt. 2

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jnick

2[H]4U
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Sep 25, 2004
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About one year ago I made a post about water cooling titled "Need Advice: Is it REALLY worth it (for me at least)" - It can be seen here.

I'm still stuck in the same situation. The reason I still haven't purchased a wcing setup isn't because I'm scared, or cheap. It was because the highest my chip could go at the time was 2.5Ghz. The processor wasn't going any higher therefore there was absolutely no reason for me to go WCing as I would gain 0% performance and my temps on air were fine.

However, now I've just built my C2D system which can be seen in my sig. I'm still in the process of overclocking, therefore I have no way in telling if going water would give me any head room or performance gains. However, this new system does run much hotter than my old. Besides that C2D run hotter than Opty's, I now have an 8800GTX which is hot enough to ALMOST cook my eggs in the morning :).

So I've been talking with another [H] forum member, Arcygenical, who has been a tremendous help. He suggested a few components for a WCing setup. However, while I DEFINITELY trust his suggestions and knowledge, I always like multiple opinions on the matter. Therefore, below, you can see the components which he suggested to me. NOTE: He suggested the FULL cover block for the GTX, however Petras didn't have it in stock so I had to substitute for the pic :).



Now, I have a few questions about the above components. However before you answer, keep this in mind. I have about $250-$300 to spend. I MIGHT be able to push $350. However, I'm not looking to spend more money for a mere 1*C. However, if you could substitute some of these components for others, which in total may drop the temps > 5C; I'm game. So . . . here are the questions.

1. Is the DDC-2 THAT much better than the D5 in regards to price/performance? Which would you suggest?

2. TDX vs Apogee . . .? I'm running an E6600 . . .

3.Is there a better Radiator than the BIPIII? Coolingworks perhaps? (I'll be using 63CFM fans . . .)*

4. For the 8800GTX, should I go full cover or MCW60 with a bunch of MC14s? Price wise, the full cover is only about $20 more once all the MC14s are counted for. By ful cover, I mean EK NOT DD.

5. EK High Flow Barbs - Are they worth it? I don't mind spending the money if they're going to help flow and temps. If so, what should I use them on? Everything (cou, rad, pump, gpu, etc)?

6. For tubing -> Is Tygon really worth the extra $? Or is masterkleer fine? Also 7/16" or 1/2"?

7. Does the Res really matter? Is the swiftech mcres-MICRO Hi-Flo res fine? Or would one of those cylindrical ones work better in regards to flow?

* I cannot use the Thermochill PA120.3 as I committed to a "regular" size rad grill on my case. The cut has already been made.

Any input is greatly appreciated. Also if you think we left something out, let me know!

Thank you in advance!
 
jnick said:
1. Is the DDC-2 THAT much better than the D5?
2. TDX vs Apogee . . .?
3. Is there a better Radiator than the BIPIII? Coolingworks perhaps?
4. For the 8800GTX, should I go full cover or MCW60 with a bunch of MC14s?
5. EK High Flow Barbs - Are they worth it?
6. For tubing -> Is Tygon really worth the extra $?
7. Does the Res really matter? Is the swiftech fine? Or would one of those cylindrical ones work better in regards to flow?
Click to expand...
1. No.
2. Apogee.
3. Yes. Yes.
4. Full cover, in my opinion.
5. In my opinion, no.
6. In my opinion, yes.
7. Somewhat. Which Swiftech? Questionable.
 
^^^ what he said

tygon indeed does rule in cramped spots.. but if you don't have to worry about sharp bends then masterkleer works very well.

a res will allow for easier bleeding of the system. I always thought spending $20 bucks on a plastic box was kind of insane tho... t-line works just as good..
 
For the res, I was referring to the mcres-micro h-flo res.

Thanks for the input. I also forgot to mention I'd be using 63CFM fans on the rad. Should still be looking at the coolingworks? Or something else?

Cheers.
 
I would rethink the entire configuration but that is just me.
 
Rick,

As far as what? Components? Feel free to post up what you think I should consider.
 
Masterkleer is way cheaper than tygon. I haven't ever used tygon, but mk 7/16 are pretty decent. They do tend to kink up easily (not sure how 1/2ID would compare and how tygon does). I just managed to get things to be minimally restricted. If you want, you can use ties to force the tube round at the tight curves. Works really well.

Apogee > TDX. People knock way too hard on the apogee. It's not as bad as people make it out to be.

DDC2 is decent, but only with an aftermarket top, ie petra's or alphacool. Else, D5 is the way to go. Is the difference justifyable? Up to you. Turns out to be around $15, so what the hell, I suppose.

They say fullcover blocks are more restrictive and not as efficient, but in the case of the 8800, I remember complaints towards the mcw60 and it. I do remember the vrm or something getting extremely hot for a mc14 to handle. So fullcover might be in order. Besides, you're not running storm, so you have plenty of flow in your loop.

mcres-micro is alright. Some people question it's killing of the flow, since it's a 45' wall right when it enters, but it shouldn't be too bad. Air tends to be run to the top of the res within an hour I've found, so not bad there. You'd probably end up using the velcro though. I swear to god, something's up with the brackets.

EK high flow, I can't comment too much on. My loop isn't restrictive enough for it to be potentially making a difference. Metal barbs are great though in comparison to the stock swiftechs. It's real hard to slip the 7/16 back off those plastic barbs. Substantially easier with metal barbs. However, if you're using 1/2, then it's really moot.

Maybe someone else can comment, but you might be able to get away with a .2 config. If you've already drilled the holes for 3 rad, then by all means. I believe coolingworks is newer revision of what swiftie has. It pretty much has same characteristics as a BIX but has lower fan density so insanely high cfm's isn't needed. Are you planning on single fan's or push/pull config?

As for if it's worth it to even go water, what has been your experience so far with your e6600 / 8800? Are you planning on overclocking both? Here's my old e6400 for reference and why I went the way of water. With air cooling, I could get 3.2 stable easily with minimal increase in voltage (1.325v stock, but with droop i was needing to set higher to get 1.296 or higher under load for stability). However, if I wanted 3.4, I'd need 1.45v. 3.5, 1.55v. and 3.6 I'd need 1.6v. Any of those three voltages sent my temps on aircooling into the high 70's /low 80's. With water, they tamed down to around 65 under load with coretemp. There's a lot of variation among the c2d's though. Some are much lower in temp, some are much higher. Mine seems to follow suit with the higher temp ones. So in my case, really 3.2 and 3.6 aren't really too too different, but I guess it was a goal I wanted to hit, and while normally, I'd say the extra voltage and heat for such little overclock isn't worth it, I went ahead this time. Water was the way to go for sure. For reference, on air I was using an ac freezer 7.

For my gpu, I had a zalman vf900, which was substantially quieter and more effective than the stock cooler (i have a 7900gs), it was still annoying in tone. MCW60 brought temps even lower, managed a 20mhz boost in gpu core too.
 
Ziddey - Thank you very much for the help!

Yes, the area is already cut for a 3x120 and the grill is installed. I originally planned on using just 3 fans on the rad - single sided.

I'm in the ocing process now. So far to get 3.3 I needed 1.35v in the bios (1.296 in windows). Running dual instances of 32m super-pi to see if I can raise the speeds. Temps are in the low 50C with Super-PI load. It's 58C-60C with Orthos load.

However, I'm in a cubby right now. When I take my case out of the tower, temps drop about 5-7C.

As far as the DDC2 -- I don't mind spending the $15, if it's going to help flow or temps.

What other res would you recommend? EK Multi Option?

Thanks :)
 
jnick said:
Ziddey - Thank you very much for the help!

Yes, the area is already cut for a 3x120 and the grill is installed. I originally planned on using just 3 fans on the rad - single sided.

I'm in the ocing process now. So far to get 3.3 I needed 1.35v in the bios (1.296 in windows). Running dual instances of 32m super-pi to see if I can raise the speeds. Temps are in the low 50C with Super-PI load. It's 58C-60C with Orthos load.

However, I'm in a cubby right now. When I take my case out of the tower, temps drop about 5-7C.

As far as the DDC2 -- I don't mind spending the $15, if it's going to help flow or temps.

What other res would you recommend? Are pump+res combos any good?

Thanks :)
Click to expand...

DDC2 isn't bad in my opinion. With petra's top, I feel like it looks way better than a clunky D5. I got mine from sidewinder since petra's was sold out at the time. It came preassembled and without the stock top (ehhh). There is the scare surrounding some ddc's where they'd fail within the first few days. I might have had such a situation. I gave it a few hard taps on my desk and it started up again. I didn't even notice until I saw my temps on the core were 79'c. After it kicked back in, everything immediately fell to the 30's. That was on maybe day 4 or something. Then a few days later when I went to put together the final installation in the case, instead of just lying on the bench, I decided to take the ddc apart (again, mine came preassembled). I don't know how it happened but the pcb was pretty soaked and some contacts were starting to show a bit of corrosion. Perhaps I should have taken it apart and fiddled with it to begin with, but since it came preassembled, I trusted it and didn't touch it. So perhaps that's the reason behind some failures out there. I dried everything up and put it back together. So far it's been running for 3 days straight without a hiccup. The o-ring has been and is installed properly, so I can't really explain why it was wet internally. Hopefully, it won't happen again.

Also, look into jab-tech for a lot of parts. They're among the cheapest out there (jab-tech and sidewinder were cheapest)
 
Thanks again Ziddey.

I'm seeing a lot of talk about the D-Tek Fuzion over at XS. Has anyone personally used it? What were the results?

Also I read swiftech is coming out with a new block. I'll deifnitely wait to see how that performs.

I'm also kind of so-so on the coolingworks rad. Not because of price or anything like that, but rather because I haven't seen many people using it. I normally see either the Thermochill PA or BIP rads. Is coolingworks truly better than BIP at low/med CFM (63).

Keep the suggestions coming!
 
1. Is the DDC-2 THAT much better than the D5 in regards to price/performance? Which would you suggest?
I think so.

2. TDX vs Apogee . . .? I'm running an E6600 . . .
Any performance difference would be very small (with an IHS, there isn't likely to be any difference). Either one will get the job done.

3.Is there a better Radiator than the BIPIII? Coolingworks perhaps? (I'll be using 63CFM fans . . .)*
Yes, but for the money, a BIPIII is a great radiator. Coolingworks are great as well.

4. For the 8800GTX, should I go full cover or MCW60 with a bunch of MC14s? Price wise, the full cover is only about $20 more once all the MC14s are counted for. By ful cover, I mean EK NOT DD.
Full cover. http://petrastechshop.com/ekgtxfucowaf.html
If you do go with the MCW60, skip on the MC14s. I used them and I didn't like them. I switched them out with some OCZ aluminums (now discontinued, but theres a lot of other similar ramsinks out there) and got better clocks with those, in addition to being low profile, cheaper, lighter, and the thermal tape that came on them was actually usable.

5. EK High Flow Barbs - Are they worth it? I don't mind spending the money if they're going to help flow and temps. If so, what should I use them on? Everything (cou, rad, pump, gpu, etc)?
I like them personally, but there isn't going to be a significant difference.

6. For tubing -> Is Tygon really worth the extra $? Or is masterkleer fine? Also 7/16" or 1/2"?
I don't think so. Unless you're having to make a crazy turn. I use masterkleer, and its been fine. I originally had used 7/16", but didn't like having to cut my tubing off my barbs if I wanted to change something, so I switched to 1/2". 7/16" is very safe, because it will lock onto the barb really well, but 1/2" is usually easier to deal with. Depends on your priorities.

7. Does the Res really matter? Is the swiftech mcres-MICRO Hi-Flo res fine? Or would one of those cylindrical ones work better in regards to flow?
Go with either the MCRES-MICRO, or the EK cylindrical res, whichever fits into your case the best. I've used the micro, and it was a great res. It could bleed the entire line in a matter of minutes. The EK should be just as good, if not better.
 
Just wanted to chime in on question 6 (Tygon).

Tygon is the industry "standard" for tubing. Just like many people consider Arctic Silver the industry "standard", by which all other thermal pastes must compare against.
They make many different types of tubing. Stuff for surgical needs, stuff that resists chemicals, stuff for cold liquids, stuff for hot liquids, vacuum tubing, colored tubing, sanitary tubing, silicone tubing, high pressure tubing, UV resistant tubing, ultra soft tubing, beverage tubing, milk/dairy tubing, etc...

I recently picked up some tygon (labratory tubing R 3603) tubing in 7/16" ID size (the only Tygon line that has 7/16" ID).... the problem with this stuff is that wall thickness is only 1/16" making it very soft and VERY difficult to push onto 1/2" barbs. The same Tygon R3603 tubing with 1/2" ID, can be had with 3 different OD sizes (wall thicknesses - 1/16", 3/32" and 1/8").

1/2" ID Tygon starts at $1.70 per foot (for the thin wall stuff), and at the other end is $3.24 per foot (for the 1/8" walled tubing)... all prices from U.S. Plastics (local to me)

To some it's worth it, to others, maybe not. I'll use my 7/16" ID Masterkleer until I've run out, and then will consider using Tygon (since I now have someplace locally to get it).
 
Re: #6- Don't chintz out on your tubing. Even if you go with Tygon (or in my case PrimoFlex) and you buy 10 feet it's still going run you less than 20 bucks, which will likely be the least expensive component in your setup. Go cheap and get a kink and you'll be spending a whole lot more than that to replace the stuff you fry.


Re: #7 - IMO the type or res isn't going to matter other than personal preference.
 
Thanks for the feedback.

What about a flow meter? I noticed back in the day people used to use them left and right. I don't see that to often anymore. Any reason why?
 
jnick said:
Thanks for the feedback.

What about a flow meter? I noticed back in the day people used to use them left and right. I don't see that to often anymore. Any reason why?
Click to expand...

They are usually FLOW killers... taking a look at most of them, they're 3/8" ID so if you're using a 1/2" system, that'll kill the flow for sure. If you plan on using 3/8" then it won't hurt the flow TOO bad.

I considered a flow meter, but couldn't find one that was 1/2" ID... luckily, the turbulence in my reservoir lets me know that there's plenty of fluid moving through my loops.
 
I remember back in the day when the flow got obstructed somewhere the hose at the inlet to the pump would collapse. I suspect this would happen as well on the DD D5 pump ;-)

I like the setup you got there, its almost identical to my shopping cart, minus the GPU stuff. Im going to buy that as soon as i get my next card.

I am struggling still with if i should get the double or triple rad. Tonight i plan on cutting out cardboard silhouettes to see how each would fit.

Edit: you may save a buck or 2 buying the cpu block and pump at dangerdenstore.com and the rest of the stuff wherever. The combo sale price is good there.
 
Yeah, Arcygenical mentioned that to me as well. I believe it's a 15% discount?

I'm just still unsure what I'm doing with the pump and block :p.

Thanks again guys. Any other comments are more than welcome.
 
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