Ivy Bridge Temperatures Could Be Linked To TIM Inside Integrated Heatspreader: Report

+1 There could be many reasons. My bet is on less stress on the chip. Maybe people have been bringing in cracked chips under warranty and Intel analyzed them finding too much pressure was placed on with the CPU cooler. So it has resulted in more costs to Intel.... wait, are we back to money again? Hmmmmm.... So maybe Intel has found a way save money by eliminating $10 worth of flux solder from the package, save warranty money because the TIM is more flexible causing fewer RMAs, AND it is harder to overclock because these chips overheat, so Intel can sell more flux-free-soldered "extreme" chips and charge twice as much for a process that probably only costs them $10. Brilliant.

$10? more like 2 cents, if that. This is penny pinching in the extreme. This is some jerk at Intel getting a bonus by screwing the consumer.

This is everyone chanting about how this is "ok" having lost perspective. This is like when amd fans refused to believe bulldozer was a failure. Wake up and stop offering excuses.
 
$10? more like 2 cents, if that. This is penny pinching in the extreme. This is some jerk at Intel getting a bonus by screwing the consumer.

This is everyone chanting about how this is "ok" having lost perspective. This is like when amd fans refused to believe bulldozer was a failure. Wake up and stop offering excuses.

Please, if you think it only costs 2 cents more to use solder over TIM, you're kidding yourself. It's not $10, but it sure as hell isn't 2 cents.

And we get it, you don't like the fact that they switched to TIM - you can stop telling us. There's an easy solution for you, don't buy one.
 
Didn't read the entire topic. It's confirmed that the retail chips use this TIM and the temps are lower when removed and the heatsink makes direct contact with the die?
 
Didn't read the entire topic. It's confirmed that the retail chips use this TIM and the temps are lower when removed and the heatsink makes direct contact with the die?

It has been confirmed that retail chips will use TIM, although we aren't sure what kind of compound it is and how well it works.

It has NOT been confirmed that removing the IHS and having direct contact will make things cooler. The single test floating on the internet showed that it was actually hotter. Needs more testing for confirmation.
 
Absolutely not... It's nothing like the Bulldozer fiasco.

Indeed. Bulldozer was way hyped up by AMD, and didn't deliver.

Ivy Bridge was not really hyped up by Intel, and did everything that Intel said it would do. One of the things that Intel did not say it would do is overclock better than SB. That was made up by others.
 
One of the things that Intel did not say it would do is overclock better than SB. That was made up by others.

Actually I'm pretty sure Kyle said a few months ago that it would not overclock as well as Sandy, but he didn't know the reason at that time.
 
And we get it, you don't like the fact that they switched to TIM - you can stop telling us. There's an easy solution for you, don't buy one.
Wrong, there are multiple solutions. One is that I can not buy one (your only offered choice), one is that I can wait until others have figured out how to improve on the current IVB IHS system and then buy one, one is that I can wait until others have figured out how to improve the cooling and see if a cheaper version of the chip which comes out which is unpackaged.... Now I can combine all of these solutions with the practice of rubbing everybodies' faces in the fact that they are getting a Ferrari with cement wheels right now. :mad::p
 
It has been confirmed that retail chips will use TIM, although we aren't sure what kind of compound it is and how well it works.

It has NOT been confirmed that removing the IHS and having direct contact will make things cooler. The single test floating on the internet showed that it was actually hotter. Needs more testing for confirmation.

The retail chips do use TIM.

What you are right about, though, is that the TIM seems to make no difference. The heat is mostly attributed to the new process and transistor density.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2242252
 
The retail chips do use TIM.

What you are right about, though, is that the TIM seems to make no difference. The heat is mostly attributed to the new process and transistor density.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2242252
What are you smoking? Of course the new process and transistor density causes heat to be more concentrated into a smaller area. While total heat given off by the chip is less than SB, this lesser amount is dissipated over a smaller area (so the temperature is higher at each point on the surface). Hence the need for a higher quality cooling system, hence the need to use a better method to remove the heat from the chip. So now you have to ask yourself which is a better system to remove heat from the chip, solder or TIM? Think about it. I like anandthech, but you have to understand, they are not independent journalists, they have an interest in getting their engineering samples ahead of time from manufacturers like Intel. They are biased and the last thing they want to do is bite the hand that feeds them. Use your brain, think about TIM vs. Solder and dont let others persuade you when you know they have an interest in the issue already.
 
Did you read the link or are you just retarded and want to get a word in?

It's a thread from overclock.net where they tested the chip with TIM and without it. The temperature differences between the two process was initially linked to the TIM and Intel being cheap, and although they were being cheap it's also shown to not increase the temperatures. Intel realized they had a hot chip and instead of wasting extra money they decided to bring back the TIM because, as that thread showed (the same one you didn't bother to read) that it makes no difference. Ivy Bridge runs hot. That's it.

They are biased and the last thing they want to do is bite the hand that feeds them. Use your brain, think about TIM vs. Solder and dont let others persuade you when you know they have an interest in the issue already.

TIM was used to cut corners and increase profit margins on a process that has already had various issues, including yields. Also accusing AT of bias might be the dumbest thing I've seen in a long time. Hats off, really. If you've got nothing to say you shouldn't spout utter nonsense. About the only thing you're contributing is more bandwidth.
 
Too bad the motherboard socket bracket holds the IHS down when it clamps the CPU to the mobo. Otherwise just razor blade the IHS off & put your own TIM & CPU cooler directly onto the chip. Kinda eliminate the middleman.
 
What are you smoking? Of course the new process and transistor density causes heat to be more concentrated into a smaller area. While total heat given off by the chip is less than SB, this lesser amount is dissipated over a smaller area (so the temperature is higher at each point on the surface). Hence the need for a higher quality cooling system, hence the need to use a better method to remove the heat from the chip. So now you have to ask yourself which is a better system to remove heat from the chip, solder or TIM? Think about it. I like anandthech, but you have to understand, they are not independent journalists, they have an interest in getting their engineering samples ahead of time from manufacturers like Intel. They are biased and the last thing they want to do is bite the hand that feeds them. Use your brain, think about TIM vs. Solder and dont let others persuade you when you know they have an interest in the issue already.

:rolleyes: stop posting
 
:rolleyes: stop posting

He's right. Intel has set it up so that we have a small area + low conductivity TIM + large area IHS + low conductivity TIM + CPU cooler. It used to be a almost-as-small area + high conductivity solder + large area IHS + low conductivity TIM + CPU cooler. Not a good change. If you are going to pull heat away from a very small surface area you have to compensate by using higher conductivity materials. Thermodynamics 101. Intel screwed this one up.

That "test" is worthless because all they did was use the low conductivity TIM directly on the die which is exactly what Intel did.
 
I have a solution for all of you that are crying. Don't purchase an IB. Chances are, you don't even need one anyways because you already own a 2500 / 2600. IB is a sideways upgrade at best. Haswell is out next year. Put your money into a real performance upgrade and get a 2nd video card or a couple of 240gig SSD's and start rocking a Raid0 480gig SSD setup.

Today's math lesson. 4.8Gh SB = 4.6 IB. And from what I am seeing, very few people are getting 4.6ghz and if they do, it's not stable because the flames of hell are leaping out of their cases someone near their sockets.
 
The retail chips do use TIM.

What you are right about, though, is that the TIM seems to make no difference. The heat is mostly attributed to the new process and transistor density.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2242252

That is the one single test I am talking about. The guy got higher temps with the IHS off than with it on. Which is why I said needs more testing for confirmation.
 
How complex would the procedure be to replace the TIM under the IHS with a nice layer of flux-less solder, then repositioning the IHS, considering skilled hands with the proper tools?

Voided warranty, but is it possible to replace the IHS back to its correct position?

Sorry if this question has already been asked.
 
Did you read the link or are you just retarded and want to get a word in?

It's a thread from overclock.net where they tested the chip with TIM and without it. The temperature differences between the two process was initially linked to the TIM and Intel being cheap, and although they were being cheap it's also shown to not increase the temperatures. Intel realized they had a hot chip and instead of wasting extra money they decided to bring back the TIM because, as that thread showed (the same one you didn't bother to read) that it makes no difference. Ivy Bridge runs hot. That's it.

That test does not compare Solder to TIM. Nor is that thread final as to whether you can delid the IVB and cool it better, like the other poster noted here and another person posted in the same thread. So a product runs hot and therefore you opt for an inferior cooling system. That makes about as much sense as sending the boy scouts after Osama Bin Laden.

TIM was used to cut corners and increase profit margins on a process that has already had various issues, including yields. Also accusing AT of bias might be the dumbest thing I've seen in a long time. Hats off, really. If you've got nothing to say you shouldn't spout utter nonsense. About the only thing you're contributing is more bandwidth.
At least I don't let others do all my thinking. If that is the dumbest thing you have heard you should listen to yourself sometime.
 
That is the one single test I am talking about. The guy got higher temps with the IHS off than with it on. Which is why I said needs more testing for confirmation.

That's most likely due to contact. When you take off the casing you're not going to have a clean fit. That's all the more reason to not mess with it. Changing TIMs also won't result in any major benefit either than maybe a couple of degrees.

But note how small the chip is compared to the cooler

31716287vg4gh7shz4g47rrud5.jpg


That's leaving a lot of unused space. This can't be remedied by a smaller cooler because you can only cover the size of the die so you're limited here. You can't possibly have a larger area of contact unless you have a bigger chip, regardless of how big your cooler is. Then it gets worse...

17174806ey4pqaasn2un8ieu1t.jpg


That's how small the actual contact area is beneath the casing and that's limited by design. The only way to do anything here would be to fill in the void beneath the cap and around that tiny contact point then replace the casing back. Soldering here isn't going to help (much) as it's still making only minimal contact for heat dissipation.

How complex would the procedure be to replace the TIM under the HIS with a nice layer of flux-less solder, then repositioning the HIS, considering skilled hands with the proper tools?

Voided warranty, but is it possible to replace the HIS back to its correct position?

Sorry if this question has already been asked.

Difficult. You run the risk of fucking up your board and processor and obviously neither would be covered under warranty. Plus it really doesn't look like it would make a difference. The biggest takeaway from that thread should be the actual contact size and just how small Ivy Bridge really is.
 
Thanks pelo, your posts are always outstanding! If you were considering an Ivy 3770K, would you purchase now or wait for possible future revisions?
 
I don't think there will be revisions. The later chips might benefit from process maturity but considering the biggest factor in the added heat, the density of the die itself, isn't changing then there's likely not going to be much of a difference.

It's still a great chip, though. If you're overclocking you'll get somewhere in the 4.4/4.5ghz area with decent cooling but I wouldn't expect much more unless you spend >$60 on a top end air cooler or low level water cooling. The additions to Quicksync and PCIE 3.0 are great, but if you're looking for the highest OC possible then you're better off buying a 2700K or 2600K for cheaper. If you're not overclocking then you have nothing to worry about :p
 
I don't think there will be revisions. The later chips might benefit from process maturity but considering the biggest factor in the added heat, the density of the die itself, isn't changing then there's likely not going to be much of a difference.

It's still a great chip, though. If you're overclocking you'll get somewhere in the 4.4/4.5ghz area with decent cooling but I wouldn't expect much more unless you spend >$60 on a top end air cooler or low level water cooling. The additions to Quicksync and PCIE 3.0 are great, but if you're looking for the highest OC possible then you're better off buying a 2700K or 2600K for cheaper. If you're not overclocking then you have nothing to worry about :p

Ordering, thanks so much...
 
OK, so regardless of why it might be, I decided to go look at Intel's own specs and see how well the IB die transfers heat to the IHS compared to SB. You can determine that by looking at Tcase_max in the thermal design specs, and a little math -- die-to-case thermal resistance is equal to (Tj_max-Tcase_max)/TDP, in degrees per watt. Lower is better.

I7-2700K: TDP 95W, Tj_max = 99C aprox, Tcase_max = 72.6C,
i7-2700K die-to-case thermal resistance = 0.278 C/W.

i7-3770K TDP 77W, Tj_max =99C aproz, Tcase_max = 67.4C,
i7-3770K die-to-case thermal resistance = 0.410 C/W.

What this means: well that's complicated. But here's an example

Say you have a chilled direct-water-contact cooling setup that can keep the case at a nice 5C (40F) temperature using nearly ice-cold water, for a Tj_max to case delta-T of 95C. How far can you push the TDP of each processor before exceeding Tj_max ?

On the SB with 0.278 C/W resistance you could dissipate 95/0.278 = 341W -- 3.5x normal
On the IB with 0.410 C/W resistance you could dissipate 95/0.410 = 231W -- 3X normal

But what does that mean for OC? At its simplest level of analysis, power in CMOS goes up as the cube of performance -- power goes up with the square of voltage and linearly with clock speed, and clock speed goes up linearly with voltage. So, for example, a 20% increast in clock means a 20% increase in voltage, which means a 70% increase in power.

So, if that formula holds, in this scenario SB's 3.5X power ceiling should mean 53% more OC'd performance than stock, and IB's 3X power ceiling should mean 44% more OC'd performance than stock. IB would need a 6% IPC advantage to close the gap -- which some reports say it has. So it looks like a tie in terms of real performance, but with IB pulling 100W less power.

Of course this example is just to illustrate how the math goes. There are lots of simplifying assumptions, so real-world results may vary. But the direct and inarguable take-away from Intel's datasheets is that IB needs lower case temperatures than SB, even with IB's reduced TDP, and that is because of it's higher die-to-IHS thermal resistance.
 
You're a bit off the mark with a couple of things.

1 - The TJmax of the IB chips is 105C and not 100C; SB is 100C though.

2 -
power goes up with the square of voltage and linearly with clock speed, and clock speed goes up linearly with voltage.

The power does go up by squared with voltage increases as opposed to a linear increase in clock speed. But...

So, for example, a 20% increast in clock means a 20% increase in voltage, which means a 70% increase in power

Not necessarily. A 20% overclock can potentially be had on stock voltage (this depends on the bin and the luck of the draw but it's pretty common unheard of. A prime example would be my 955. Eg. a chip at 3ghz would only need 800mhz. A 2500K would need only .66ghz putting it at ~4ghz. That's very common with stock voltage), therefore the power draw would go up linearly (though not necessarily at the same rate as this depends on the starting voltage) and there would be no need to increase in voltage. If you did increase the voltage it certainly wouldn't need to be 20%.

So, if that formula holds, in this scenario SB's 3.5X power ceiling should mean 53% more OC'd performance than stock, and IB's 3X power ceiling should mean 44% more OC'd performance than stock. IB would need a 6% IPC advantage to close the gap -- which some reports say it has. So it looks like a tie in terms of real performance, but with IB pulling 100W less power.

From the reviews I've read it seems like the performance is comparable considering the lower attainable clock speeds and the bump in IPC. The power draw is always significantly lower and IMO the most impressive stat. This obviously depends on the "golden chip" rule, but some people have managed 4.7/4.8ghz just as there have been numerous 5.2/5.3ghz SB chips so we can knock those out as oddballs.
 
Some OCCT stock temps on water from Krystm. For ultra-silent rigs, good data.

0lfBo.jpg
 
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You're a bit off the mark with a couple of things.

1 - The TJmax of the IB chips is 105C and not 100C; SB is 100C though.

True, but the thermal design specs are oriented towards 99C Tj_max.
And in a simplistic analysis like I did, the difference is ultimately "in the noise."

[I wrote: The power does go up by squared with voltage increases as opposed to a linear increase in clock speed. But...
]
Not necessarily. A 20% overclock can potentially be had on stock voltage (this depends on the bin and the luck of the draw but it's pretty common unheard of.
Yeah, Intel always leaves some headroom, but that's not something I could plug into the analysis. My calculation include the unspoken assumption that at any particular voltage you are running at the highest stable clock speed.

And my reading of the reviews comes to the same conclusion as you did: SB obtains higher clocks, but IB makes up for that with a slightly improved microarchitecture, but probably depending on the application you are running.
 
Here's the thing though. The die is a small part, with limited surface area. When it comes to cooling, your first goal is to move heat from that small surface area to a larger surface area as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Let's say, for the purpose of discussion, that the die has a surface area of 5 units, and the IHS has a surface area of 20 units (which may not be too far off as far as ratios are concerned). Solder is very, very efficient at transferring heat compared to TIM, and by using solder between the die and the IHS, you are providing a very, very efficient means of indirectly increasing the die's surface area such that, when you attach a heat sink using TIM, which isn't nearly as effective of transferring agent, the TIM is acting over a larger surface area, making it more efficient.

This means that the use of solder and an IHS, when properly executed, may serve to achieve better overall thermal performance than attaching a heat sink directly to the die itself using TIM. It's not about making the IHS as thermally transparent as possible; the IHS is now being underutilized as it is the part which is most capable of facilitating the heat transfer to the heat sink, considering the size of modern processor dies and their lack of surface area.

As such, I feel that comparisons between the IB CPU with IHS removed versus with it attached via TIM are almost pointless. The point isn't that it is acting like an insulator; it is being transparent, but this isn't anywhere near optimal. It should be an integral part of the thermal transfer process, not simply something to protect the die.

A better comparison would require attaching the heat sink to the naked (IHS removed) IB die using solder, or to solder a metal plate to the naked IB die and then use TIM between that plate and a heat sink, but this isn't practical. No one is going to want to solder their heat sink to a die. Hence we need Intel to provide this first stage of the thermal process for us.

I don't think there will be revisions. The later chips might benefit from process maturity but considering the biggest factor in the added heat, the density of the die itself, isn't changing then there's likely not going to be much of a difference.

***snip***

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I wasn't initially a fan of IHS implementations when they first appeared covering chips, but that was back when dies were large. Back then there was plenty of die to directly interface with a heat sink. I feel that this is no longer the case.
 
That's most likely due to contact. When you take off the casing you're not going to have a clean fit. That's all the more reason to not mess with it. Changing TIMs also won't result in any major benefit either than maybe a couple of degrees.

But note how small the chip is compared to the cooler

31716287vg4gh7shz4g47rrud5.jpg


That's leaving a lot of unused space. This can't be remedied by a smaller cooler because you can only cover the size of the die so you're limited here. You can't possibly have a larger area of contact unless you have a bigger chip, regardless of how big your cooler is. Then it gets worse...

17174806ey4pqaasn2un8ieu1t.jpg


That's how small the actual contact area is beneath the casing and that's limited by design. The only way to do anything here would be to fill in the void beneath the cap and around that tiny contact point then replace the casing back. Soldering here isn't going to help (much) as it's still making only minimal contact for heat dissipation.



Difficult. You run the risk of fucking up your board and processor and obviously neither would be covered under warranty. Plus it really doesn't look like it would make a difference. The biggest takeaway from that thread should be the actual contact size and just how small Ivy Bridge really is.

Wow I knew it was Small But Man thats NUTZ! Nice Pic and Great Post.
 
After a few days of playing with 3570k and thinking about how hot it runs compared to SB I have come to peace with it all.

The chip runs hot because the 22nm die size has less surface area to displace heat and because of the design of the Tri-gate transistors. Changing the TIM to Fluxless Solder may not really make much of a difference to help dissipate heat because of the small 22nm surface area of the IB die.

IB uses less voltage and power than SB.

IB Max TJ is higher than SB so even though the heat is hotter it is not going to hurt the chip. It is designed to run hotter. Tri-gate transistors in IB run hotter but that is normal.

My guess is that the actual atomic structure of the material of the IB over all design is a better at conducting electricity and has a lower resistance design which allows it to perform better with lower voltages and withstand the higher heat.

My biggest surprise with this cpu is how well it pairs up with my GTX 560 ti 448 for gaming. Gaming feels much more snappier than my 2500k ever felt. I am using the same MSI Z68 MB for IB that I ran my 2500k in.
 
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Changing the TIM to Fluxless Solder may not really make much of a difference to help dissipate heat because of the small 22nm surface area of the IB die.

lol. whatever helps you sleep at night. :rolleyes:
 
Minimal contact, fine, but fluxless solder is a magnitude of order more efficient at transferring heat than TIM given the same effective area.
 
its actually not that small guys. its actually about the size of the 2600/2700k's if you pop those lids off. in fact, it looks nearly identical. i'd have to have the two side by side to confirm the size difference.

sorry i have no pics to prove it at the moment but take my word for it, i've seen a topless 2700k.
 
Sandy Bridge is 216 mm^2 and Ivy is 161 mm^2, so it is quite a bit smaller percentage-wise. Also consider that Ivy's GPU is larger as a percent of the die, so the difference in CPU size is even greater. Ivy also has ~25% more transistors (although most of that is probably GPU).
 
Someone at Intel better address these rumors quickly, because this just put the brakes on my IB purchase and am seriously considering a secondhand Sandy to hold me over until its tocker time.
 
Someone at Intel better address these rumors quickly, because this just put the brakes on my IB purchase and am seriously considering a secondhand Sandy to hold me over until its tocker time.

What rumors? Intel already made a statement about the temps - die size and changes to the packaging. Despite what everyone seems to want to believe, it's not a conspiracy.
 
Someone at Intel better address these rumors quickly, because this just put the brakes on my IB purchase and am seriously considering a secondhand Sandy to hold me over until its tocker time.


plenty of decent SB used for sale on Ebay. I sold my 2500k core for 3570k online. :)
 
So I guess there is a "ticker time" and a "tocker time?" Those are the terms we're using now for upgrades? Wow...
 
I was very skeptical about getting the 3770K and was close to just going with a 2700K instead. I decided why bother with it. I've got a nice custom watercooling setup and will give the 3770K a go. If I can manage 4.5 Ghz at a low vcore with good temps, I'll be happy.
 
If you have a good CPU watercooling setup you should definitely get the 3770K versus Sandy because the only limitation is Temperature.
 
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