Jay Wilson: Auction House really hurt Diablo 3

[lilbabycat]

I didn't mind the AH at all (or the RMAH). Who the fuck cares if you get your items from the ground or if you get money from the ground and turn that into items? It's certainly better than spamming a chat channel for trading.

One of those involves playing the game, one doesn't. That's what most people care about. I made ~$200 off Diablo3, but I rarely had "fun" doing it. I'd rather have not made any money, and played a great game instead.

Whether the game mechanics were shitty to encourage use of the RMAH or viceversa, both the RMAH and the mechanics of the game are shitty...so I dunno why we keep discussing it.

 

[Serpent]

So if Diablo 2 had an auction house but was EXACTLY the same in every other regard that auction house alone would have made the game shitty?

Nope.

The auction house alone does absofuckinglootly nothing to make the game worse. The way the game was made is what makes the game not as well designed as D2.

no real point in talking about this as people will see and believe what they want regardless of its factuality....shit people are celebrating a zombie right now as I type this.

...

If it was the same regardless, then no. But if Diablo 2 put in the auction house... then say ... lower drop rates by 500%. Then yes... it is gonna be more shitty than it is. More so, if you make the game surrounded by items, where stats are determined by your class and item alone.

If D3 takes out auction house, will it be a better game? Slightly, mainly because everyone is screwed just the same. But, if you designed the game in a way that'll make it better... say what they had in place before, like the skill runes with different rank, where you put them into skills, instead of make a skill rune something you got from leveling. It'd probably be better.

 

[Intel_Hydralisk]

Just to be clear, there are several topics/issues:

1. AH
2. Itemization
3. Random Item drop model

D2 and D3 share #3 - you get gear as a random drop (as opposed to a game like WoW where it's more controlled and certain bosses drop certain things and are guaranteed to drop something etc.).

D3's itemization is wildly different than D2 - this is where everyone gets their perceived 'drop rate in D2 was better' argument from.

D3's itemization combined with the random item drop model creates this statistical economy model that fuels the RMAH. Blizzard designed it this way and they're very aware of it.

If you added the AH to D2, I think most people here wouldn't care or actually would like it (I for one hated spamming trade chat all day).

So really, I think AH is not to blame at all. The itemization is really the root of all the issues and I doubt it's something Blizzard's going to change. Their stance on "Oh the AH is an uncontrolled beast that we let loose!" is somewhat of a poor misdirection from them so people continue to be unaware of just how astronomically bad the itemization really is.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

So you're telling me that by playing through the game once or twice in D2 you can have BiS gear? If you have to grind for random drops, it's the same model.

I certainly did not want to grind in D2, and if I wanted all the best unique items I would definitely have to grind thousands of hours killing the same boss over and over. It's the same model, and I've said before that D3 just made this model even worse with the statistics behind the D3 itemization.

Can you name a popular (successful, w/e) MMO/RPG based on gearing/items that has D2's random drop model?

Can you name a game that currently has a AH and is terrible because of the AH?

Can you name a game with an AH where if you injected D3's itemization but removed the AH would be fine?

EDIT: Also, people who don't really understand the itemization will immediately come to the conclusion that D2's 'drop rate' is better than D3's. You can't really characterize everything into a single drop rate. The very nature of the item itself creates this illusion in D3. A very simple example is how their prefix/postfix system dominates how good an item is. I forget the exact numbers (been a while since I played), but for example the prefix stat goes from 1-200 and the postfix stat goes from 1-200 (and of course, the item's stats are pretty much 100% how good the item is). This means that to get a perfect roll, you have a 1/200 * 1/200 chance (realistically you don't NEED a perfect roll, but you get the idea). And of course, this is just 1 stat. You need the perfect combination of stats and ALL of them need to be a highish range for the gear to be 'good'. Now that you understand this, do you still think farming for gear is a good idea in D3? Even if they upped the drop rate and removed the AH, this item model is absurd.

No, I'm saying it took less time in D2 to get good gear. BiS items were determined by your build more than anything, which really doesn't have much weight in D3. See what I bolded in your post.

I'm not going to argue about the itemization model, because it's the model that makes people want to play it. It's why PoE is popular, why Titan Quest was popular. Changing it to a WoW loot model changes the entire demographic you're selling a game to.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

Just to be clear, there are several topics/issues:

1. AH
2. Itemization
3. Random Item drop model

D2 and D3 share #3 - you get gear as a random drop (as opposed to a game like WoW where it's more controlled and certain bosses drop certain things and are guaranteed to drop something etc.).

D3's itemization is wildly different than D2 - this is where everyone gets their perceived 'drop rate in D2 was better' argument from.

D3's itemization combined with the random item drop model creates this statistical economy model that fuels the RMAH. Blizzard designed it this way and they're very aware of it.

If you added the AH to D2, I think most people here wouldn't care or actually would like it (I for one hated spamming trade chat all day).

So really, I think AH is not to blame at all. The itemization is really the root of all the issues and I doubt it's something Blizzard's going to change. Their stance on "Oh the AH is an uncontrolled beast that we let loose!" is somewhat of a poor misdirection from them so people continue to be unaware of just how astronomically bad the itemization really is.

This is something I agree with.

 

[TwistedAegis]

The new skill system just exponentially increases the impact of the shitty itemization. Because skills have no inherent damage anymore, EVERYTHING drives off your itemization, it tanks the whole game.

 

[stevedave]

...

If it was the same regardless, then no. But if Diablo 2 put in the auction house... then say ... lower drop rates by 500%. Then yes... it is gonna be more shitty than it is. More so, if you make the game surrounded by items, where stats are determined by your class and item alone.

If D3 takes out auction house, will it be a better game? Slightly, mainly because everyone is screwed just the same. But, if you designed the game in a way that'll make it better... say what they had in place before, like the skill runes with different rank, where you put them into skills, instead of make a skill rune something you got from leveling. It'd probably be better.

Congratulations you came to the correct conclusion. If D2 has an Auction House it would still be the same Amazing game it is....Thus the Auction House is not the issue.

Drop rates, Poorly designed Items, Poorly designed classes, Poorly designed game. All major issues. Sure you could draw a conclusion that these things were all deliberately created the way they are to maximize the use of the auction house (a bit tin foil hat but possible). Even with this conclusion the Auction House still isn't the problem its the design of the game.



As a side note I have over 1000 hours in both D3 and D2.....probably close to 2000 hours in D2.

Finding gear in D2 is just as rare if not more rare than D3...the main differences are that D2's Items are just all around better thus finding them is more enjoyable and our memories of D2 are old and faded and remembering the early years of the game is hard. Nothing in D3 is as rare as a Zod rune....or any high level rune for that matter.....and nothing is more useful in D2 than Rune Words.....If it weren't for duping and botting there would only be a handful of Zod runes in existence.

Cubing from El rune this is what it takes to get a ZOD rune.....Finding one is more rare and time consuming than cubing one out....I know I have cubed one out but have never found one... Anyone here find a ZOD rune???? I didn't think so.

3 Els = 1 Eld (1)
9 Els = 1 Tir (4)
27 Els = 1 Nef (13)
81 Els = 1 Eth (40)
243 Els = 1 Ith (121)
729 Els = 1 Tal (364)
2187 Els = 1 Ral (1093)
6561 Els = 1 Ort (3280)
19,683 Els = 1 Thul (9841)
59049 Els = 1 Amn (29524)
177147 Els = 1 Sol (88573)
531441 Els = 1 Shael (265720)
1594323 Els = 1 Dol (797161)
4782969 Els = 1 Hel (2391484)
14348907 Els = 1 Io (7174453)
43046721 Els = 1 Lum (21523360)
129140163 Els = 1 Ko (64570081)
387420489 Els = 1 Fal (193710244)
1162261467 Els = 1 Lem (581130733)
3486784401 Els = 1 Pul (1743392200)
6973568802 Els = 1 Um (3486784401)
13947137604 Els = 1 Mal (6973568803)
27894275208 Els = 1 Ist (13947137607)
55788550416 Els = 1 Gul (27894275215)
111,577,100,832 Els = 1 Vex (55788550431)
223154201663 Els = 1 Ohm (111577100863)
446308403328 Els = 1 Lo (223154201727)
892616806656 Els = 1 Sur (446308403455)
1785233613312 Els = 1 Ber (892616806911)
3570467226624 Els = 1 Jah (1785233613823)
7140934453248 Els = 1 Cham (3570467227647)
14,281,868,906,496 Els = 1 Zod (7140934455295)

 

[MavericK]

The new skill system just exponentially increases the impact of the shitty itemization. Because skills have no inherent damage anymore, EVERYTHING drives off your itemization, it tanks the whole game.

Yeah I think that's the core problem. It's fundamentally broken.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

Nobody ever needed a Zod in D2. Breath of the Dying was a Runeword that was extremely powerful.

 

[big_aug]

Congratulations you came to the correct conclusion. If D2 has an Auction House it would still be the same Amazing game it is....Thus the Auction House is not the issue.

Drop rates, Poorly designed Items, Poorly designed classes, Poorly designed game. All major issues. Sure you could draw a conclusion that these things were all deliberately created the way they are to maximize the use of the auction house (a bit tin foil hat but possible). Even with this conclusion the Auction House still isn't the problem its the design of the game.



As a side note I have over 1000 hours in both D3 and D2.....probably close to 2000 hours in D2.

Finding gear in D2 is just as rare if not more rare than D3...the main differences are that D2's Items are just all around better thus finding them is more enjoyable and our memories of D2 are old and faded and remembering the early years of the game is hard. Nothing in D3 is as rare as a Zod rune....or any high level rune for that matter.....and nothing is more useful in D2 than Rune Words.....If it weren't for duping and botting there would only be a handful of Zod runes in existence.

Cubing from El rune this is what it takes to get a ZOD rune.....Finding one is more rare and time consuming than cubing one out....I know I have cubed one out but have never found one... Anyone here find a ZOD rune???? I didn't think so.

3 Els = 1 Eld (1)
9 Els = 1 Tir (4)
27 Els = 1 Nef (13)
81 Els = 1 Eth (40)
243 Els = 1 Ith (121)
729 Els = 1 Tal (364)
2187 Els = 1 Ral (1093)
6561 Els = 1 Ort (3280)
19,683 Els = 1 Thul (9841)
59049 Els = 1 Amn (29524)
177147 Els = 1 Sol (88573)
531441 Els = 1 Shael (265720)
1594323 Els = 1 Dol (797161)
4782969 Els = 1 Hel (2391484)
14348907 Els = 1 Io (7174453)
43046721 Els = 1 Lum (21523360)
129140163 Els = 1 Ko (64570081)
387420489 Els = 1 Fal (193710244)
1162261467 Els = 1 Lem (581130733)
3486784401 Els = 1 Pul (1743392200)
6973568802 Els = 1 Um (3486784401)
13947137604 Els = 1 Mal (6973568803)
27894275208 Els = 1 Ist (13947137607)
55788550416 Els = 1 Gul (27894275215)
111,577,100,832 Els = 1 Vex (55788550431)
223154201663 Els = 1 Ohm (111577100863)
446308403328 Els = 1 Lo (223154201727)
892616806656 Els = 1 Sur (446308403455)
1785233613312 Els = 1 Ber (892616806911)
3570467226624 Els = 1 Jah (1785233613823)
7140934453248 Els = 1 Cham (3570467227647)
14,281,868,906,496 Els = 1 Zod (7140934455295)

Without duping and botting, I might have much worse memories of D2. I certainly wouldn't have had all too cool gear I had lol

Imagine if D2 were released today with no dupes/bots and no AH. My god the horror.

 

[Russ]

No, I'm saying it took less time in D2 to get good gear. BiS items were determined by your build more than anything, which really doesn't have much weight in D3. See what I bolded in your post.

I'm not going to argue about the itemization model, because it's the model that makes people want to play it. It's why PoE is popular, why Titan Quest was popular. Changing it to a WoW loot model changes the entire demographic you're selling a game to.

You're *way* too plugged into a small scene if you think PoE and Titan Quest were "popular."

The "I want to go back to 2000 and play more D2" crowd likes them, sure, but on a large scale (i.e. the gaming population in general) they are not very popular games at all.

Besides, D3 really doesn't take very long at all to get good gear, either. You could easily clear the entire game with items that had literally half the stats of a BiS item. I cleared everything in just over 100 hours total played time, iirc. And that was in the first few weeks, when the overall item quality available on the AH was very low.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

You're *way* too plugged into a small scene if you think PoE and Titan Quest were "popular."

The "I want to go back to 2000 and play more D2" crowd likes them, sure, but on a large scale (i.e. the gaming population in general) they are not very popular games at all.

Besides, D3 really doesn't take very long at all to get good gear, either. You could easily clear the entire game with items that had literally half the stats of a BiS item. I cleared everything in just over 100 hours total played time, iirc. And that was in the first few weeks, when the overall item quality available on the AH was very low.

Titan Quest sold ~2 million copies (though the online mode was horribly exploitable) and PoE has well over a million unique accounts. I'd say that's popular.

 

[WarriorX]

Congratulations you came to the correct conclusion. If D2 has an Auction House it would still be the same Amazing game it is....Thus the Auction House is not the issue.

Drop rates, Poorly designed Items, Poorly designed classes, Poorly designed game. All major issues. Sure you could draw a conclusion that these things were all deliberately created the way they are to maximize the use of the auction house (a bit tin foil hat but possible). Even with this conclusion the Auction House still isn't the problem its the design of the game.



As a side note I have over 1000 hours in both D3 and D2.....probably close to 2000 hours in D2.

Finding gear in D2 is just as rare if not more rare than D3...the main differences are that D2's Items are just all around better thus finding them is more enjoyable and our memories of D2 are old and faded and remembering the early years of the game is hard. Nothing in D3 is as rare as a Zod rune....or any high level rune for that matter.....and nothing is more useful in D2 than Rune Words.....If it weren't for duping and botting there would only be a handful of Zod runes in existence.

Cubing from El rune this is what it takes to get a ZOD rune.....Finding one is more rare and time consuming than cubing one out....I know I have cubed one out but have never found one... Anyone here find a ZOD rune???? I didn't think so.

Edited the bit about the runes..

The highest rune I found was Sur. I was so excited...stopped playing D2 like 2 days later. Just started playing a different game. That was only a few years ago. When I played D2 in like 2001-2003 or whatever I don't even think I found an ist rune lol. I also never found an SoJ, Windforce, or Grandfather sword. However I did get a grandfather sword in D3...and I salvaged it because it was so bad. D3 problem is not the RMAH or GAH, it is like been said itemization. I should not be salvaging top tier items. Even if I don't need it I should sell it. I traded/sold in D2 all the time because I always found stuff I didn't need or had to much of. If you needed Griswold sword you would come to me because I had a character dedicated to holding them.

So I think if they fixed the items in D3, and made them not so rare, the game would be way better off then removing the AH.

 

[Plague_Injected]

The new skill system just exponentially increases the impact of the shitty itemization. Because skills have no inherent damage anymore, EVERYTHING drives off your itemization, it tanks the whole game.

Something a few people in here don't or won't comprehend.

 

[TwistedAegis]

It's a shame too, because killing monsters is really pretty fun in the game, if only there was more reason to do it, and more variety in the form of randomized dungeons. They got the core "feel" right, but every other core mechanic is all wrong.

 

[koopaGG]

Cubing from El rune this is what it takes to get a ZOD rune.....Finding one is more rare and time consuming than cubing one out....I know I have cubed one out but have never found one... Anyone here find a ZOD rune???? I didn't think so.

You have never cubed to a zod rune. Not in the sense implied at least

14,281,868,906,496 Els = 1 Zod (7140934455295)

If you found 1 el rune every minute (seems reasonable enough) it would take you well over 400,000 years. Pretty ridiculous when you think about it.

I have found a zod rune. Obviously people have because they were on the market. At least 1 person had to find one for it to get duped.

 

[DeathPrincess]

Wow...this game is so fucked up nobody can even agree on what the hell is exactly wrong with it.

The main reason is it's just boring.

Why is it boring?

Because the first time you run the game it's ok, some acts are better than others, but it's ok.

Then you run it again. It's the same. The exact same game.

Then you run it again. This time the enemies have more health. You've now played an ok game 3 times, it is getting pretty boring.

Then you run it again. This time the enemies have more health and have annoying attacks. You think "how many ok games have I played more than once?".

Then you've got nothing left to do but grind out loot. Does this unlock a bonus mode of fun? No, you still have the same 4 acts and the same maps. You find 10 perfect uniques and all you still have to do is run the same maps with the same enemies and bosses, just it's easier to do.

At this point it's grinding for the sake of grinding, as the grinding doesn't gain you anything. There's no procedurally created levels, or anything to look forward to but more back and forth grinding to get more numbers on an item for absolutely no reason. Oh, you can play the same game again 4 times on hardcore.

They needed to include more game to go with their AH system.

 

[TheCommander]

Congratulations you came to the correct conclusion. If D2 has an Auction House it would still be the same Amazing game it is....Thus the Auction House is not the issue.

Drop rates, Poorly designed Items, Poorly designed classes, Poorly designed game. All major issues. Sure you could draw a conclusion that these things were all deliberately created the way they are to maximize the use of the auction house (a bit tin foil hat but possible). Even with this conclusion the Auction House still isn't the problem its the design of the game.



As a side note I have over 1000 hours in both D3 and D2.....probably close to 2000 hours in D2.

Finding gear in D2 is just as rare if not more rare than D3...the main differences are that D2's Items are just all around better thus finding them is more enjoyable and our memories of D2 are old and faded and remembering the early years of the game is hard. Nothing in D3 is as rare as a Zod rune....or any high level rune for that matter.....and nothing is more useful in D2 than Rune Words.....If it weren't for duping and botting there would only be a handful of Zod runes in existence.

Cubing from El rune this is what it takes to get a ZOD rune.....Finding one is more rare and time consuming than cubing one out....I know I have cubed one out but have never found one... Anyone here find a ZOD rune???? I didn't think so.

3 Els = 1 Eld (1)
9 Els = 1 Tir (4)
27 Els = 1 Nef (13)
81 Els = 1 Eth (40)
243 Els = 1 Ith (121)
729 Els = 1 Tal (364)
2187 Els = 1 Ral (1093)
6561 Els = 1 Ort (3280)
19,683 Els = 1 Thul (9841)
59049 Els = 1 Amn (29524)
177147 Els = 1 Sol (88573)
531441 Els = 1 Shael (265720)
1594323 Els = 1 Dol (797161)
4782969 Els = 1 Hel (2391484)
14348907 Els = 1 Io (7174453)
43046721 Els = 1 Lum (21523360)
129140163 Els = 1 Ko (64570081)
387420489 Els = 1 Fal (193710244)
1162261467 Els = 1 Lem (581130733)
3486784401 Els = 1 Pul (1743392200)
6973568802 Els = 1 Um (3486784401)
13947137604 Els = 1 Mal (6973568803)
27894275208 Els = 1 Ist (13947137607)
55788550416 Els = 1 Gul (27894275215)
111,577,100,832 Els = 1 Vex (55788550431)
223154201663 Els = 1 Ohm (111577100863)
446308403328 Els = 1 Lo (223154201727)
892616806656 Els = 1 Sur (446308403455)
1785233613312 Els = 1 Ber (892616806911)
3570467226624 Els = 1 Jah (1785233613823)
7140934453248 Els = 1 Cham (3570467227647)
14,281,868,906,496 Els = 1 Zod (7140934455295)

I'd say the AH is a small part of the issue. Shitty item drops, bad game mechanics, no skill or stat customization, and the AH all make D3 an average game. I remember in D2 it was fun to recreate characters since there were many different builds. I tried in D3 and it got boring since skills and stats are automatic. It's too bad for D3 since it had smooth gameplay and decent graphics. Could have been so much more if not for the bad game mechanics.

 

[Aix.]

I found Lo, Sur, and Cham runes, although I never found a Jah, Ber, or Zod. And yes, implying that any rune needed to be cubed entirely of El's is just silly.

Still though, there were many very good runewords that were completely attainable to players that played "legit"; Duress, Treachery, Insight, and Spirit come to mind as some of my favorites without even looking at the list. In that regard, the ideas of runes and runewords were proven winners, even if duping proliferated the game-breaking ones throughout the game, effectively watering it down.

For some reason many people are unable to look at the concept of runewords as a whole, instead just pointing at D2 and saying "D2 had no depth because people had Enigma!"

 

[stevedave]

Wasn't aware people were saying D2 had no depth....It lasted 10 years I think that alone would trump anyones opinion of weather or not it had depth.

Low level gear is part of D2's secret and one of D3's major MAJOR flaws. Nothing better than getting a sigons set early on in D2.....for D3 you just but a gem in a weapon call it game until inferno.

I could go on for days on the flaws of D3.....but not a single one of them is auction house related.

 

[Aix.]

Wasn't aware people were saying D2 had no depth....It lasted 10 years I think that alone would trump anyones opinion of weather or not it had depth.

Low level gear is part of D2's secret and one of D3's major MAJOR flaws. Nothing better than getting a sigons set early on in D2.....for D3 you just but a gem in a weapon call it game until inferno.

I could go on for days on the flaws of D3.....but not a single one of them is auction house related.

Getting back to the thread while answering your post: people like Jay Wilson - the people that argue that "D2 wasn't as fun as you remember" - tend to argue that the game had no build diversity, everyone just used Enigma, etc. It's basically saying that the game wasn't deep. Unfortunately, (and ironically) these are the people that D3 was created for: people that played D2 and thought something was wrong.

I'm no fan of what the AH does for a game like this and I don't wish to see one in any other ARPG, but I agree that D3's fundamental flaws would still be there even if they shut down the AH tomorrow. In fact, removing the AH would do nothing but highlight the itemization issues as players could no longer just punch in their stat-stick values and pay their gold for upgrades.

The real question, is whether those flaws would exist if the game had been developed without an AH, and it's not likely that we'll ever get a useful answer beyond what Jay has already said.

 

[Nytegard]

I've been thinking about this some more, and I've decided that my crazy conspiracy theory is as follows (after having started back playing this game again).

Maybe it's not really the AH that he was upset with, but the fact that the RMAH isn't really being used.

They put in the RMAH so that people could have a legitimate way of purchasing their gear instead of going through a secondary Chinese gold farming site to get their stuff. But guess what? When gold costs $1 to get 4 million gold on the RMAH vs $6 to get $100 million gold on the black market, people were just avoiding the Blizzard AH to get their stuff the old fashioned way. And with plenty of gear that matched the RMAH, why spend $200 for a piece when you could just buy it for 2 billion gold ($120 equivalent)?

And with all the duping going on, prices are plummeting, and gold is being added way too quickly, absolutely wrecking the auction house. They only thing that really sells for money any more are gems, which cost $1.75 or so (7 million blizzard gold, or matching the Chinese gold farming sites). But you can only sell so many gems, and I doubt Blizzard is making a huge cut off of $0.26 per gem.

 

[wabbitseason]

Getting back to the thread while answering your post: people like Jay Wilson - the people that argue that "D2 wasn't as fun as you remember" - tend to argue that the game had no build diversity, everyone just used Enigma, etc. It's basically saying that the game wasn't deep. Unfortunately, (and ironically) these are the people that D3 was created for: people that played D2 and thought something was wrong.

I'm no fan of what the AH does for a game like this and I don't wish to see one in any other ARPG, but I agree that D3's fundamental flaws would still be there even if they shut down the AH tomorrow. In fact, removing the AH would do nothing but highlight the itemization issues as players could no longer just punch in their stat-stick values and pay their gold for upgrades.

The real question, is whether those flaws would exist if the game had been developed without an AH, and it's not likely that we'll ever get a useful answer beyond what Jay has already said.

Dead-on. If the game hadn't been purposefully designed to revolve around the AH, if it hadn't been tailor-made for fools who disliked D2, it might have been a great game and a great success.

 

[stevedave]

I've been thinking about this some more, and I've decided that my crazy conspiracy theory is as follows (after having started back playing this game again).

Maybe it's not really the AH that he was upset with, but the fact that the RMAH isn't really being used.

They put in the RMAH so that people could have a legitimate way of purchasing their gear instead of going through a secondary Chinese gold farming site to get their stuff. But guess what? When gold costs $1 to get 4 million gold on the RMAH vs $6 to get $100 million gold on the black market, people were just avoiding the Blizzard AH to get their stuff the old fashioned way. And with plenty of gear that matched the RMAH, why spend $200 for a piece when you could just buy it for 2 billion gold ($120 equivalent)?

And with all the duping going on, prices are plummeting, and gold is being added way too quickly, absolutely wrecking the auction house. They only thing that really sells for money any more are gems, which cost $1.75 or so (7 million blizzard gold, or matching the Chinese gold farming sites). But you can only sell so many gems, and I doubt Blizzard is making a huge cut off of $0.26 per gem.

Interesting take on it. I bet it cost blizzard quite a bit of money to implement the auction house, and if it didn't bring in the cash they were expecting while hurting the companies reputation at the same time I could see him saying what he said in response this this.

But I have a feeling the auction house brought in some major cash. I dropped about 400 into it and made back about 300. So from me alone they got another 100 bucks or so of revenue. I am probably way above the standard deviation due to having high income and not kids but still they probably made some pretty good extra cash. But the server space, electricity use, maintenance, ect ... may break the cost benefit analysis.

 

[MavericK]

Don't forget that they take a cut of every single transaction, as well. How do you think Paypal is so successful?

 

[stevedave]

Don't forget that they take a cut of every single transaction, as well. How do you think Paypal is so successful?

the 105 bucks was the cut from the transaction.....the cut is the only way they make money.

Spent 400 they got 60 and made 300 they got 45.

I have a couple of other six figured friends who spend over a grand....but most of the people I play with spent nothing....I'd love to see some numbers but I doubt blizzard would ever release that.

 

[mope54]

Low level gear is part of D2's secret and one of D3's major MAJOR flaws.

It's an issue that is resolved by playing hardcore mode.

 

[Serpent]

Congratulations you came to the correct conclusion. If D2 has an Auction House it would still be the same Amazing game it is....Thus the Auction House is not the issue.

Drop rates, Poorly designed Items, Poorly designed classes, Poorly designed game. All major issues. Sure you could draw a conclusion that these things were all deliberately created the way they are to maximize the use of the auction house (a bit tin foil hat but possible). Even with this conclusion the Auction House still isn't the problem its the design of the game.

It is the problem of the design, but it's also the problem of the auction house because the design was made because of the auction house. Ergo, Auction House is the problem. How is this hard to get?

 

[LeninGHOLA]

Look! More hidden footprints...

 

[stevedave]

It's an issue that is resolved by playing hardcore mode.

I don't understand how the items are the same in hardcore. The early gear is boring and lackluster (well at least in comparison to D2) regardless of which mode you play.

It is the problem of the design, but it's also the problem of the auction house because the design was made because of the auction house. Ergo, Auction House is the problem. How is this hard to get?

Easily I try to only rely on factual information. You are making the assumption that the game was designed the way it was because of the auction house. You are further making the assumption the game would have turned out differently without the auction house. Even further you are also making the assumption that blizzard was/is capable of making something better had they not had an auction house. Far too many assumptions for me to subscribe into that line of thinking (or lack there of).

I could use your same logic and say that World of Warcraft killed Diablo 3 because the Auction House was a response to World of Warcraft's revenue stream.....even further blame War Craft 3 for being so successful which caused Blizzard to grow and become capable of making an MMO......I could then blame Ultima Online for making MMO's popular.

Much of the team that worked on D2 is gone. They have had many developmental changes throughout the entire D3 development. It is possible that the auction house has nothing to do with how bad the itemization is in diablo 3.

I choose to make observations on how the game could be fixed by changing specific mechanics in the game that are broken.....One of them not being the auction house.

Change the game & Keep the auction house = Good game
Keep the game & Remove the auction house = Same game same problems.

 

[mope54]

because it's not
I can not tell you why the mechanics feel different
main reasons that come to mind are that the economy is not borked. low level items still sell on the AH (those useless leveling span between 15 and 40ish on normal sell with regularity), the skills are useful mainly because you have to actually go slowly through the content and play a completely different style...unless you really enjoy re-rolling

the members who joined our playgroup from the other thread mentioned in teamspeak, "you know this is surprisingly more fun"

you've got like maybe an hour of time wasted if you try it out but for some reason in all these threads very few people take me up on the offer to try it out

I don't have any reason to lie about it though. worst case scenario is you come back to the thread and say mope frigging lied to me in order to get me to give a game mode I never tried a shot but the game still sucks

of course itemization needs addressing and it's being addressed in both the community/developer communication and upcoming patches
but low level gear is useful and therefore fun to use in hardcore mode. if you don't find it fun that's that as different people find different things fun to do. I saw one member in this thread criticizing the game for it's core element of being a redundant loot grind...so there isn't much response to that type of criticism of a game like Diablo

 

[stevedave]

because it's not
I can not tell you why the mechanics feel different
main reasons that come to mind are that the economy is not borked. low level items still sell on the AH (those useless leveling span between 15 and 40ish on normal sell with regularity), the skills are useful mainly because you have to actually go slowly through the content and play a completely different style...unless you really enjoy re-rolling

the members who joined our playgroup from the other thread mentioned in teamspeak, "you know this is surprisingly more fun"

you've got like maybe an hour of time wasted if you try it out but for some reason in all these threads very few people take me up on the offer to try it out

I don't have any reason to lie about it though. worst case scenario is you come back to the thread and say mope frigging lied to me in order to get me to give a game mode I never tried a shot but the game still sucks

of course itemization needs addressing and it's being addressed in both the community/developer communication and upcoming patches
but low level gear is useful and therefore fun to use in hardcore mode. if you don't find it fun that's that as different people find different things fun to do. I saw one member in this thread criticizing the game for it's core element of being a redundant loot grind...so there isn't much response to that type of criticism of a game like Diablo

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/dirkdirden-1579/

You'll see I have a level 53 right now in hardcore....my level 60 died.

things do feel different in HardCore than softcore. But this isn't related to the auction house. Hardcore in D2 felt different than softcore in D2 as well.

It has to do with the removal of characters and gear. It puts more focus on playing the game than maximizing DPS though a gear hunt.

Same issues exist in Hardcore though. They my be less obvious but they still exist.

 

[mope54]

I was only responding to the concern that low-level gear is lackluster in D3

My opinion is that low-level gear and low-level skills are more relevant in hardcore mode than normal

I agree with you that the AH is of minor relevance to the issues that do need to be addressed in D3 and I have always stated that itemization needs to be addressed. It sounds like you agree with me that hardcore mode feels different than normal mode and, I assume, for the better.

I suppose my response in that post would have been better worded if I wrote, "it's an issue that is *partially* resolved by playing hardcore mode"

 

[Mozex]

You are making the assumption that the game was designed the way it was because of the auction house.

Blizzard has said that the auction house was designed the way it is because of the auction house. (They have also said that this isn't the case).

First!
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5150112701?page=2#33
"The auction house obviously provides an incredible service to allow for very easy trades between characters, and essentially blows out the wide range of items you could have available to you at any one time. So, in fact, the AH has to be a factor in how we drop items. On one hand you have a huge benefit because you can buy and sell items very easily, as opposed to having to post up WTS threads in the old USEast trading forums, but on the other end it does impact the item pool economy with the inherent ease at which you can trade items. If the AH existed but wasn't a factor at all into how items dropped/rolled, the economy would be completely tanked within a matter of weeks."

Second! The complete 180. I like how the drop rates were tuned for single player, but multiplayer and auction house were also a factor
http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/06/06/jay-wilson-and-other-diablo-3-developers-answer-almost-everyth/

"The drop rates were tuned for a player who would never use the Auction House. For the majority of internal development we didn't have an Auction House, we all played using our own drops only. I've personally leveled multiple characters from 1 to 60 internally before the game came out using only drops that I found - we all did.

When we say we "took the AH into account" that means it's one of many factors. ie. some players will choose to play without trading, some players would play in a group of 4 where they share drops among each other, and some (as it turns out, many) players would use the AH."

 

[big_aug]

Personally, I liked D3 a lot better when the drop rates were super low. It was awesome to find an item worth 250-500 million and then turn around and drop a billion on sweet upgrades.

 

[stevedave]

Blizzard has said that the auction house was designed the way it is because of the auction house. (They have also said that this isn't the case).

First!
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5150112701?page=2#33
"The auction house obviously provides an incredible service to allow for very easy trades between characters, and essentially blows out the wide range of items you could have available to you at any one time. So, in fact, the AH has to be a factor in how we drop items. On one hand you have a huge benefit because you can buy and sell items very easily, as opposed to having to post up WTS threads in the old USEast trading forums, but on the other end it does impact the item pool economy with the inherent ease at which you can trade items. If the AH existed but wasn't a factor at all into how items dropped/rolled, the economy would be completely tanked within a matter of weeks."

Second! The complete 180. I like how the drop rates were tuned for single player, but multiplayer and auction house were also a factor
http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/06/06/jay-wilson-and-other-diablo-3-developers-answer-almost-everyth/

"The drop rates were tuned for a player who would never use the Auction House. For the majority of internal development we didn't have an Auction House, we all played using our own drops only. I've personally leveled multiple characters from 1 to 60 internally before the game came out using only drops that I found - we all did.

When we say we "took the AH into account" that means it's one of many factors. ie. some players will choose to play without trading, some players would play in a group of 4 where they share drops among each other, and some (as it turns out, many) players would use the AH."

drop rates does not equal game design nor is it one of the problems. Upping drop rates just gives you more junk to sift through which results is more good items but its not a fix. You can still get a wizard Helmet with 200 strength and 200 dex and in the end the percentage of good items vs bad items is still the same.

If they up or down the drop rates its a global thing so I fail to see the big deal. If the reduce your chance of finding something then when you finally do it will mean more. Ups and downs to both sides of the story........Unless they have some method of dynamically adjusting drop rate on a per person bases....then I'd have a problem......but I doubt blizzard could manage such a feat.

I was only responding to the concern that low-level gear is lackluster in D3

My opinion is that low-level gear and low-level skills are more relevant in hardcore mode than normal

I agree with you that the AH is of minor relevance to the issues that do need to be addressed in D3 and I have always stated that itemization needs to be addressed. It sounds like you agree with me that hardcore mode feels different than normal mode and, I assume, for the better.

I suppose my response in that post would have been better worded if I wrote, "it's an issue that is *partially* resolved by playing hardcore mode"

Yeah hardcore is quite a bit different. I don't know about for the better there are some issues with it when it comes to multiplayer, which is pretty much all I do, because when someone dies they can no longer play with the group unless you all die or restart....it has happened to one of my friends every time I have done HC multiplayer.

If they had some method of saving a team member though a group sacrifice like dropping 5 level and losing all gold to revive fallen comrade I'd say hardcore would be better. But flat out losing a team member sucks....too hardcore....which is the point I guess.

 

[mope54]

Blizzard has said that the auction house was designed the way it is because of the auction house. (They have also said that this isn't the case).

First!
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5150112701?page=2#33
"The auction house obviously provides an incredible service to allow for very easy trades between characters, and essentially blows out the wide range of items you could have available to you at any one time. So, in fact, the AH has to be a factor in how we drop items. On one hand you have a huge benefit because you can buy and sell items very easily, as opposed to having to post up WTS threads in the old USEast trading forums, but on the other end it does impact the item pool economy with the inherent ease at which you can trade items. If the AH existed but wasn't a factor at all into how items dropped/rolled, the economy would be completely tanked within a matter of weeks."

Second! The complete 180. I like how the drop rates were tuned for single player, but multiplayer and auction house were also a factor
http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/06/06/jay-wilson-and-other-diablo-3-developers-answer-almost-everyth/

"The drop rates were tuned for a player who would never use the Auction House. For the majority of internal development we didn't have an Auction House, we all played using our own drops only. I've personally leveled multiple characters from 1 to 60 internally before the game came out using only drops that I found - we all did.

When we say we "took the AH into account" that means it's one of many factors. ie. some players will choose to play without trading, some players would play in a group of 4 where they share drops among each other, and some (as it turns out, many) players would use the AH."

Why didn't you quote his response in its entirety? He specifically refers to the first quote you used and says he's going to "expound on it" not that he's disagreeing with it or going to say something contradictory to it:

The auction house has absolutely no effect on drop rates. There are conspiracy theories and misunderstandings but I do want to re-iterate, the is NO interaction whatsoever. Bashiok mentioned earlier that we took the AH into account, so let me expand a little bit on that.
The drop rates were tuned for a player who would never use the Auction House. For the majority of internal development we didn't have an Auction House, we all played using our own drops only. I've personally leveled multiple characters from 1 to 60 internally before the game came out using only drops that I found - we all did.

When we say we "took the AH into account" that means it's one of many factors. ie. some players will choose to play without trading, some players would play in a group of 4 where they share drops among each other, and some (as it turns out, many) players would use the AH.

Three weeks after launch player's gear is much higher than what we were expecting. When I killed the Butcher on Inferno for the first time I was using a weapon with 492 DPS. There are also certain passives which are much more powerful than they were during internal development. One With Everything, for example, was basically never used internally because we didn't have an auction House. With the auction house, it feels like a mandatory passive. In retrospect we should have seen it coming. In the game's current state though, it's a powerful Monk ability that gives Monks a big survivability boost and has some interesting (some would argue fun, others would argue negative) effects on gearing.

I consider playing without the Auction House to be a very fun way to play the game. I'm personally planning on rolling some new characters that I'll set aside to be "no-AH/no-twink" characters. Much like in D2 when I would make a new character with a friend and we'd agree with each other not to twink our characters out.

All the various posts commenting on internal development decisions don't state that the game was designed with the AH in mind in the sense that they made an auction house and then tailored the drop rates in order to compel AH usage.

In fact, it's the opposite. They designed the game without the AH and now it's having an unforeseen consequence on how the game is played. It impacts the game and how players gear, not because drop rates are reduced in order to coerce purchases, but because there is so much loot available to players than the developers expected.

 

[Mozex]

drop rates does not equal game design nor is it one of the problems. Upping drop rates just gives you more junk to sift through which results is more good items but its not a fix. You can still get a wizard Helmet with 200 strength and 200 dex and in the end the percentage of good items vs bad items is still the same.

Diablo 3 is very much a game about killing monsters and getting loot. Drop rates directly impact the "getting loot" portion of the experience. The time it takes to get the 200/200 helm is going to impact how much fun most players have.

 

[mope54]

Yeah hardcore is quite a bit different. I don't know about for the better there are some issues with it when it comes to multiplayer, which is pretty much all I do, because when someone dies they can no longer play with the group unless you all die or restart....it has happened to one of my friends every time I have done HC multiplayer.

If they had some method of saving a team member though a group sacrifice like dropping 5 level and losing all gold to revive fallen comrade I'd say hardcore would be better. But flat out losing a team member sucks....too hardcore....which is the point I guess.

My friends and I only play MP hardcore. It's too dangerous to play solo
I'm really looking forward to this upcoming patch where we'll get 30% XP bonus, magic and gold find in co-op!

When one of us dies we either re-roll and power level one another or switch to one of our other characters. You've only got a few slots filled up whereas I've got one of each class on both normal and hardcore. Perhaps that's one reason I don't find it stale? I don't know but if you're looking for people who play regularly and as a group my offer to join us still stands.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/bizzle-1328/

 

[pothb]

Easily I try to only rely on factual information. You are making the assumption that the game was designed the way it was because of the auction house. You are further making the assumption the game would have turned out differently without the auction house. Even further you are also making the assumption that blizzard was/is capable of making something better had they not had an auction house. Far too many assumptions for me to subscribe into that line of thinking (or lack there of).

I could use your same logic and say that World of Warcraft killed Diablo 3 because the Auction House was a response to World of Warcraft's revenue stream.....even further blame War Craft 3 for being so successful which caused Blizzard to grow and become capable of making an MMO......I could then blame Ultima Online for making MMO's popular.

Change the game & Keep the auction house = Good game
Keep the game & Remove the auction house = Same game same problems.

Factual information? The only fact you have is that the game is out, with an auction house, and it is viewed by some people here that it sucks. Making assumptions about it being built around the AH? The reverse works as well, you are assuming that the auction house didn't influence the decision. Companies are there to make money... and companies like Activision and EA, and other such big corporation have long proven that money is more important. Going with that line of thought, it's easy to think through why they would boost a function that will give them money.

That rant with all the blaming this or that using the given logic..... I actually don't see what's wrong with it. Except that part about War Craft 3 being so successful because Blizzard could make an MMO? WC3 wasn't an MMO.