Linux - Stop Holding Our Kids Back

[DaedalusHelios]

The fact remain Linux requires more technical knowledge... that is what he is getting at even if he doesn't know it.

Basic Linux Operation takes more technical knowledge than basic Windows operation.

Basic Windows operation takes more technical knowledge than basic Mac OS operations.

I prefer Windows as I am an enthusiast.

 

[kac77]

YOu're just plain wrong. Not a little wrong, but you couldn't be more wrong. Linux is NOT ready for the desktop market. When I use the built in Ubuntu install utility and it asks me for my password and it acts like it's installing and doesn't, that's a HUGE problem. When it does that without so much as a message telling me it failed, that's a complete loser for home users.

Windows has an incredible amount of stupid unintelligible error messages and when things go wrong, most users are fucked. But with Linux, the basics don't always work via the gui. Hell, a co-worker (who outside of work only uses Linux), decided to switch from Ubuntu to Fedora. He'd tried out the live CD and loved it. Installed Fedora and it completely locked every few minutes. He's currently reinstalling Ubuntu, because he's got to get it working before he leave for training in 2 days.

We've also seen Ubuntu lock up (it's uncomon, but it happens). There's just no advantage for the home user.

For developers, especially those of us who develop backend software, there are many advantages to *nix desktops and *nix in Virtualbox. If you're making a black box device (e.g. Tivo) Linux is a great OS. But if the end user has to actually interact with the OS itself, it's the wrong OS for 99% the people out there.

I really don't get why you'd argue otherwise, unless you don't know any non-tech people. Giving my parents Linux as their only OS is a recipe for making me miserable (which means they're not very happy either).

Now if you're going to give them an OS, and they're never ever going to install anything, then Ubuntu is probably OK....so long as YOU live nearby so YOU can take care anything they need...because they can't do it, and they aren't going to troll linux boards for info.

Some day, Linux may have a front end that is solid enough for the masses. That day has not come. It's come a long way, but I'd be surprised if it's ready for the masses in 5 years, but I won't be upset if I"m wrong.

I think you are exaggerating your claims a little. While you probably experienced locks on your computer, they are rare. Really rare. Especially from a straight install. As an IT admin, We've got several servers running linux and servers running 2003. The linux boxes don't ever go down for maintenence. 2003 on the other hand every 6 months or so do need to be taken down.

I've also installed Ubuntu for my parents, once I did that the frequent reinstalls and virus cleaning came to a complete stop. They use it day to day I don't think I've ever had to intervene. Maybe to explain doc file formats but other than that no problems. I've installed it for coworkers as well along with enough games to keep their kids happy for quite a while. Again, no problems.

For day to day tasks such as checking email, productivity software, surfing the internet, etc the day for linux, especially Ubuntu has definately come.

 

[Scali2]

Me, neither. I was a computer science student in college. I took a 200 level course that involved programming in 1998 and the professor said that the entire class was based around DOS since he had never used Windows. He's a god damn computer science professor and he's not up on the latest??? On top of that, he was my advisor for the department!

We had similar issues at uni, except with *nix.
Generally labcourses were done under Windows, and most students used Windows for whatever other tasks they did on the lab PCs aswell. Some of the labcourses were given under linux for one reason only: the professor had never bothered to learn Windows, and instead just threw his decades-old *nix material under a linux installation and called it a labcourse.

So basically because of these *nix fossils of professors, the system administrators had to maintain dual-boot systems, both Windows and linux... And most students had never worked with *nix before, so they had to learn the basics of linux just so they could complete the labcourse. So instead of these few professors getting into the 90s and using Windows, all the students had to get back into the 70s and learn the *nix basics to complete their labcourses.

I wouldn't have had a problem if there was some kind of introductory course for *nix, but no, the students had no way of knowing or preparing in advance, and just had to learn their way around linux and still complete the labcourse in time. That makes it a lot more difficult for people who aren't familiar with linux, and isn't really fair.

 

[Scali2]

For day to day tasks such as checking email, productivity software, surfing the internet, etc the day for linux, especially Ubuntu has definately come.

Not exactly an achievement, since your average phone can do these tasks aswell now.

 

[nilepez]

So you have a problem with the Ubuntu install and assume everyone has a problem with the Ubuntu install. Like nobody's ever had problems with a Windows install

Hey, this is the equivalent of installers regularly failing, or Windows Update not installing updates.

And the person who had these problems has been using Linux for 10 years....he ain't no noob.

And FWIW, no, I've never put a windows disk into a PC and had it lock up, within a minute or 2 of booting, from day one. I've installed stuff after the fact that hosed Windows, but that's not the case here....and the point isn't that Linux is bad. The point is that it is not a user friendly OS for non-technical users.

I can work my way around it. My friend will, I'm sure, figure out what happened, after he gets back from a business trip, and reinstall Fedora. But that type of experience is a non-starter for any normal user. Even when he reinstalled Ubuntu, he'll still have to edit config files before he's back up and running. Editing files is a non-starter for the average PC user.

Windows isn't perfect, but it is more user friendly than Linux.

 

[Zellio2009]

I think you are exaggerating your claims a little. While you probably experienced locks on your computer, they are rare. Really rare. Especially from a straight install. As an IT admin, We've got several servers running linux and servers running 2003. The linux boxes don't ever go down for maintenence. 2003 on the other hand every 6 months or so do need to be taken down.

I've also installed Ubuntu for my parents, once I did that the frequent reinstalls and virus cleaning came to a complete stop. They use it day to day I don't think I've ever had to intervene. Maybe to explain doc file formats but other than that no problems. I've installed it for coworkers as well along with enough games to keep their kids happy for quite a while. Again, no problems.

For day to day tasks such as checking email, productivity software, surfing the internet, etc the day for linux, especially Ubuntu has definately come.

Your talking basic stuff and servers.

Linux has pretty much done those all along.

Let me know when Linux can be used efficiently as a home theater for playback of tv, blu ray, hd-dvd, encoding of hd, gaming, programming, etc.

And all at once too.

 

[Zellio2009]

And I hafta agree with ubuntu being more user friendly, but tell us, if your wireless doesn't appear on screen, or you use an x1000 series ati card, what happens?

 

[Aku12]

Your talking basic stuff and servers.

Linux has pretty much done those all along.

Let me know when Linux can be used efficiently as a home theater for playback of tv, blu ray, hd-dvd, encoding of hd, gaming, programming, etc.

And all at once too.

umm... research a little?
mythTV has always been free and made for the linux platform
http://www.mythtv.org/

I use SageTV myself (though on windows, they do have a linux version)
http://store.sagetv.com/Merchant2/m..._Code=SOS&Product_Code=STVLS&Category_Code=SS

never heard of it but from a 30 second google search
http://www.linuxmce.org/

bluray/hddvd is pretty new, but I know people are working on it. There is a pretty nice walkthrough on ubuntu's site about it. For now you can rip it and encode it to a file mythTV can playback and watch it like that. For alot of people like myself we rip all of our disks to hard drive to watch them when ever so its not that big of a deal.

I dont do alot of encoding because I only have dvd's and recorded content so I'm not sure whats available. Sure would surprise me if there wasnt something out there.

Whats so hard about programming on Linux? My java class in college was done exlusively in a ssh/telnet client connecting to a linux server.

The reason there is more applications for windows available is not because windows is the superior software package but because it is more widely used. That just perpetuates itself as the one and only option as people that spend their time on something want it to be utilized. If we continue to bend to the rules of the software companies they wont ever have to accomidate us. If there was a larger percent of people using alternate platforms the software manufactures would start to release cross platform software packages.

 

[kac77]

And I hafta agree with ubuntu being more user friendly, but tell us, if your wireless doesn't appear on screen, or you use an x1000 series ati card, what happens?

For wireless try out ndiswrapper. There's a gui for it so you basically use the Windows driver that came with the card and use the Windows driver within Linux. How's that?

My parent's have an E-Machine (I didn't make them buy it) that has working x1000 series driver working just fine. They didn't need 3-d acceleration but I wanted to show them compiz.

 

[kac77]

Your talking basic stuff and servers.

Linux has pretty much done those all along.

Let me know when Linux can be used efficiently as a home theater for playback of tv, blu ray, hd-dvd, encoding of hd, gaming, programming, etc.

And all at once too.

Someone already posted a response, but i thought I'd give you what i run on my simple Athlon x2 machine. This runs all together all the time:

Music:
Amarok with MYSQL Backend

Downloads:
Ktorrent

HTPC Programs:
MythTV (also rides on MYSQL backend) serves out media to 3 other smaller HTPC's within my home.
Installed with 3 PCTV Linux Cards

Browser:
Firefox

Work Productivity:
Oracle 10g XE
MYSQL
Apache
Tomcat
Amaya - HTML, PHP Editor

Desktop:
Gnome w/ Compiz

Games (addntl):
Cedega -> WOW & CoX

I'm probably forgetting some things, but as I write this I'm using 747 MB of RAM no swap. With games that will go to just under 2GB and I suffer from no slow downs or anything, even while recording shows. Although I wish Nvidia would fix the memory swap issue within it's drivers. Other than that I can do just about anything that a Windows user can do and then some.

 

[limxdul]

Go ahead and arrest all those sys admins and sys engineers / architects and DBAs while your at it; I'm sure they'll be able to post bail.

 

[limxdul]

*snip*
..
Other than that I can do just about anything that a Windows user can do and then some.

Like actually make money with linux in a career in IT? ( this is not bashing all those senior windows admins -- much respect and you guys get paid well too -- I just prefer command line buried in conf and script files than point and click in AD )

 

[kac77]

Even when he reinstalled Ubuntu, he'll still have to edit config files before he's back up and running. Editing files is a non-starter for the average PC user.

Windows isn't perfect, but it is more user friendly than Linux.

Now I know you're exaggerating. What config file did he have to edit? Because any normal application installs it's config file in the home folder, which if he's used Linux for 10 years he should have made sure that was the case anyway. Fedora and Ubuntu are both deb installs with gnome being the default, so copying between the two wouldn't have been a hard thing to do. I know some people who bring all of there config files into their home folder and sym link them to the outside root file system.

There's only 1 file that I would need outside of my home folder that would be a pain to recreate and that would be fstab (I've got some mean NFS tweaks). Even that would be rare.

 

[kac77]

Like actually make money with linux in a career in IT? ( this is not bashing all those senior windows admins -- much respect and you guys get paid well too -- I just prefer command line buried in conf and script files than point and click in AD )

I support both. I can't tell you how much money I've saved from keeping Windows CAL bloat in check.

 

[ordovician]

I've used linux, and I truly love it. However, I simply cannot use it in my day to day routine. I put it on my workstation as dual-boot, but I just couldn't use it as productively as Windows (even if it IS MS' fault, linux distros have had enough time to fix the issues, imo). For one, my work network is MS windows, and I just don't have the time to get a linux system meshed up correctly (I'm supposed to actually be working). That, and the d*amn .docx support (or lack thereof) dooms linux for my purposes. Yes, you can get OOO plugins,and use converters... but they take WAY too much time and effort to use, and aren't 100% compatible, and don't support spreadsheet and Draw XML files. Staying on topic, it's people like these teachers that made me pretty disenfranchised with the education system.

"Those do can, do. Those who cannot, teach."

 

[Slade]

This teacher needs some serious enlightenment. As for teaching in general, I've gone between teaching and working in IT over 10 years now. Just because you teach doesn't mean you can't do, in some cases some of the best teachers for Computer Science I've had are those that have been contracted out from the field as they speak the language needed to do the work. Academics can only teach so much but they can be grossly out of touch with the field. Currently I have returned back to school to a program that is breaking the tradition of typical Comp Sci and have actually followed this premise in a university atmosphere rather than the whole Applied College approach. It's refreshing to be here. It's sad to see that teachers from the old school still teach like that.

 

[ordovician]

This teacher needs some serious enlightenment. As for teaching in general, I've gone between teaching and working in IT over 10 years now. Just because you teach doesn't mean you can't do, in some cases some of the best teachers for Computer Science I've had are those that have been contracted out from the field as they speak the language needed to do the work. Academics can only teach so much but they can be grossly out of touch with the field. Currently I have returned back to school to a program that is breaking the tradition of typical Comp Sci and have actually followed this premise in a university atmosphere rather than the whole Applied College approach. It's refreshing to be here. It's sad to see that teachers from the old school still teach like that.

Yeah, it's a gross statement, but I think it's apt in this case. I myself am a teaching assistant at a university.

 

[eeyrjmr]

Now I know you're exaggerating. What config file did he have to edit? Because any normal application installs it's config file in the home folder, which if he's used Linux for 10 years he should have made sure that was the case anyway. Fedora and Ubuntu are both deb installs with gnome being the default, so copying between the two wouldn't have been a hard thing to do. I know some people who bring all of there config files into their home folder and sym link them to the outside root file system.

There's only 1 file that I would need outside of my home folder that would be a pain to recreate and that would be fstab (I've got some mean NFS tweaks). Even that would be rare.

Well actually Fedora is RPM based and Ubuntu is DEB based
but aside from that

 

[kllrnohj]

The fact remain Linux requires more technical knowledge... that is what he is getting at even if he doesn't know it.

Basic Linux Operation takes more technical knowledge than basic Windows operation.

Basic Windows operation takes more technical knowledge than basic Mac OS operations.

I prefer Windows as I am an enthusiast.

That really isn't true. Actually, at the end of the spectrum with the "know nothing" users, Ubuntu is easier to use than Windows. Once you start getting to the power user and enthusiast part of the spectrum, it goes back to Windows being easier (due to intimate familiarity with Windows, an unwillingness for change, and that they really just want a Windows clone - something Linux is not). After that for the 1337 haxx0rz Linux isn't any harder or easier than Windows, just different.

 

[InorganicMatter]

That really isn't true. Actually, at the end of the spectrum with the "know nothing" users, Ubuntu is easier to use than Windows. Once you start getting to the power user and enthusiast part of the spectrum, it goes back to Windows being easier (due to intimate familiarity with Windows, an unwillingness for change, and that they really just want a Windows clone - something Linux is not). After that for the 1337 haxx0rz Linux isn't any harder or easier than Windows, just different.

That is not true. What does grandma do when Canonical shoves out Ubuntu 8.10 with broken X.org drivers, she updates, and gets the broken X.org? Who's going to revert her X to VESA, install the proper drivers (which didn't get released until a couple days later), and reconfigure X for her?

 

[eeyrjmr]

That is not true. What does grandma do when Canonical shoves out Ubuntu 8.10 with broken X.org drivers, she updates, and gets the broken X.org? Who's going to revert her X to VESA, install the proper drivers (which didn't get released until a couple days later), and reconfigure X for her?

what does grandma do when she is running Vista and MS pushes out an update that fscks with SP1 upgrade?

 

[htpc_user]

I've never worked with Linux. I did install Ubuntu on an old PC once just to see what it was like. The desktop its self seems easy to use. But I've read people's comments on trying to get "this" or "that" to work in Linux and talking about adding certain command lines and such. Why would I want to do this when I can just put a disk in and let in install and configure for me? I might as well go back to using DOS.

 

[Scali2]

That is not true. What does grandma do when Canonical shoves out Ubuntu 8.10 with broken X.org drivers, she updates, and gets the broken X.org? Who's going to revert her X to VESA, install the proper drivers (which didn't get released until a couple days later), and reconfigure X for her?

That is exactly the problem with linux.
It's a very thin layer of veneer over an archaic and non-uniform base.
As long as everything works within the boundaries of the wizards and other 'userfriendly' stuff they've crafted to hide the chaos underneath, it's fine...
But as soon as something happens that they didn't think of, you're in trouble.

For example, I have a HP Color Laserjet 4500. Installing Ubuntu all looked nice and userfriendly to the untrained eye... but looking more closely, for some reason it didn't install my printer as a colour printer. All it could do was black and white. And there was nothing in the GUI printer configuration to change that.
So you had to get back to editing configuration files manually. Fail.
Ironically enough, when I tried FreeBSD with Gnome, virtually the same wizards, software and everything, and colour did work.

Another thing I had with a Fedora installation a few years back... Friend of mine installed it... seemed to work fine, but apparently it didn't detect the monitor properly. So when it rebooted and tried to load X, there was no image, because it was trying to use a resolution and/or refresh rate that was not supported. So you were back to editing configuration files. Since this was the first linux experience for my friend, she didn't have a clue where to start, and just had to give up and try a different distribution, hoping that one did work...

That's the sort of thing where Windows is fundamentally different from linux. A configuration wizard is actually PART of the printer driver, so unless the manufacturer makes a mess of it, all the proper configuration options are accessible by definition, if you installed the driver for your printer. Since hardware detection in Windows is pretty standardized, it's almost impossible to install the wrong drivers for your hardware.

And even if you set a wrong resolution/refresh rate (which normally can't happen, because Windows will use DDC to determine the monitor's capabilities, and by default hide any incompatible options), you can boot in VGA mode easily (just press F8 during boot, which Windows will even tell you about when you have a boot menu) without having to edit any scripts or anything, and correct the problem.

Linux needs to have more integration, where drivers will contain their own wizards and handle their own configuration, rather than using all kinds of different libs and third-party wrappers to try and configure a system. It's a house of cards, literally.

 

[weasel2htm]

my girlfriend's friends aren t ready to try living with linux yet but they love to see that compiz cube spin when they come over.

I lol'd @ karen's suggestion that micro$oft would be happy to donate copies of their older operating system.

last time I checked, xp was still selling for $100 per install disk, same as vista home.

Oddly enough, a friend of mine told me of a school principal wrote M$ and said, "We got a bunch of computers donated and we don't have any licences." M$ responded with giving the school 200+ Win2k licenses (more then they would EVER need).

Mind you, this was a special situation, well away from the context this lady was talking. I see a future administrator in the making with her.

 

[Xipher]

Ok, so from what I'm getting from this thread is that the *nix variants won't go mainstream because they require people to actually work a little bit to understand the system if something doesn't work correctly. To me that's a positive item, because being naive is a big part of the problems I keep seeing every day. If people actually knew what they were doing virus propagation might not be such a large problem either, nor spam. I suppose it's a little to much to ask for people to either learn what they are doing or stay away from what they don't understand.

 

[kllrnohj]

That is not true. What does grandma do when Canonical shoves out Ubuntu 8.10 with broken X.org drivers, she updates, and gets the broken X.org? Who's going to revert her X to VESA, install the proper drivers (which didn't get released until a couple days later), and reconfigure X for her?

Since when does grandma install her own OS? Seriously, you wouldn't expect grandma to upgrade from XP to Vista by herself, so why the hell are you imposing the requirement that she upgrade from 8.04 to 8.10? 8.04 is a LTS release, so my grandma (who is running Ubuntu, by the way) will just keep using 8.04 until the next LTS release in a couple of years, in which case I'll install it for her and make sure the upgrade process is smooth. Just like I would end up doing for the transition from 95 to 98 to XP....

 

[kllrnohj]

Oddly enough, a friend of mine told me of a school principal wrote M$ and said, "We got a bunch of computers donated and we don't have any licences." M$ responded with giving the school 200+ Win2k licenses (more then they would EVER need).

Mind you, this was a special situation, well away from the context this lady was talking. I see a future administrator in the making with her.

Its also for a school. I'm sure there is some sort of donation tax break for them for doing stuff like that

 

[InorganicMatter]

what does grandma do when she is running Vista and MS pushes out an update that fscks with SP1 upgrade?

MS doesn't push out updates that destroy your OS to the point of requiring a reinstall. If there is a hiccup (which is very very vary rare), they always follow up with an easy fix.

Since when does grandma install her own OS? Seriously, you wouldn't expect grandma to upgrade from XP to Vista by herself, so why the hell are you imposing the requirement that she upgrade from 8.04 to 8.10? 8.04 is a LTS release, so my grandma (who is running Ubuntu, by the way) will just keep using 8.04 until the next LTS release in a couple of years, in which case I'll install it for her and make sure the upgrade process is smooth. Just like I would end up doing for the transition from 95 to 98 to XP....

Because as soon as 8.10 is available, software update starts screaming bloody murder: "OMG YOU NEED TO UPDATE YOUR SYSTEM!! CLICK HERE IT ONLY TAKES A SECOND......oops, I broke your X, sorrreeeeeeee...."

 

[eeyrjmr]

MS doesn't push out updates that destroy your OS to the point of requiring a reinstall. If there is a hiccup (which is very very vary rare), they always follow up with an easy fix.

1) Canonical don't push out updates that destroy your OS either
2) There was the KB pushed by MS back in December 2007 which crippled IE for some users
3) There was XP-SP3 that crippled XP (sent it into a never ending reboot loop) back in May 2008

 

[kllrnohj]

Because as soon as 8.10 is available, software update starts screaming bloody murder: "OMG YOU NEED TO UPDATE YOUR SYSTEM!! CLICK HERE IT ONLY TAKES A SECOND......oops, I broke your X, sorrreeeeeeee...."

No, actually, it doesn't. By default 8.04 LTS will only list upgrades to other LTS release - of which there aren't any. Upgrading to 8.10 has to be manually enabled. Even then, it is just a bar at the top of the update manager saying a new version is available. It never bugs the user. Not once. Of course, for my grandma I just enabled auto updates so she never even sees the update manager...

 

[Gorankar]

Ok, so from what I'm getting from this thread is that the *nix variants won't go mainstream because they require people to actually work a little bit to understand the system if something doesn't work correctly. To me that's a positive item, because being naive is a big part of the problems I keep seeing every day. If people actually knew what they were doing virus propagation might not be such a large problem either, nor spam. I suppose it's a little to much to ask for people to either learn what they are doing or stay away from what they don't understand.

Regular people just want to stick their turbo tax cd in the drive and have it install and let them do their taxes. They don't care how the OS or a toaster works, as long as they can click "yes" or push a lever and get what they want. I do not see that changing.

 

[nilepez]

Now I know you're exaggerating. What config file did he have to edit? Because any normal application installs it's config file in the home folder, which if he's used Linux for 10 years he should have made sure that was the case anyway. Fedora and Ubuntu are both deb installs with gnome being the default, so copying between the two wouldn't have been a hard thing to do. I know some people who bring all of there config files into their home folder and sym link them to the outside root file system.

There's only 1 file that I would need outside of my home folder that would be a pain to recreate and that would be fstab (I've got some mean NFS tweaks). Even that would be rare.

Sorry, I don't know. I'm telling you what was relayed to me as we were walking out of work.

I know he still had to get the VPN working...but I don't know if that was what he was referring to or not.

Hell, if you run Ubuntu in VirtualBox, the virtualbox additions won't install from the gui. It acts like it's installing them, but it doesn't.

I always have to do it from the the cdrom directory. I don't have that problem when I run XP or Vista in virtualbox or VirtualPC.

I'm sure if I bothered to right every issue down, I could list at least a dozen things, but the truth is I find out the solution, fix it and hope it doesn't happen again or I give up and find a way to work around the issue (e.g. jEdit won't run in Ubuntu, despite the fact that I downloaded it using the built in downloader and installed it with taht tool as well).

Geanie works, so I use it instead, but there's no excuse for jEdit not running. Either it's a problem with Ubuntu or that version of jEdit was buggy....if it's the latter, then it shouldn't be available via the installer.

On the plus side, OS updates work well and with few exceptions don't require reboots.

 

[nilepez]

what does grandma do when she is running Vista and MS pushes out an update that fscks with SP1 upgrade?

Wasn't that limited to certain laptops? And if that's the case, grandma would call HP or Dell and ask them to walk her through fixing it.

With Linux, she'd have to call me or get on the linux boards and hope she can find an answer.

 

[nilepez]

Ok, so from what I'm getting from this thread is that the *nix variants won't go mainstream because they require people to actually work a little bit to understand the system if something doesn't work correctly. To me that's a positive item, because being naive is a big part of the problems I keep seeing every day. If people actually knew what they were doing virus propagation might not be such a large problem either, nor spam. I suppose it's a little to much to ask for people to either learn what they are doing or stay away from what they don't understand.

The virus problems are mostly accomplished through social engineering.

Regardless, what you're saying is the equivalent of asking people to be able to tune their car if they want to drive.

I don't know about you, but I can't tune my car. I don't want to know how to tune my car. I do know how to drive it. I know a mechanic to fix it and I know of several places where I can get my oil changed in 20 minutes or less.

That's what should be required to use a PC. Basic security knowledge is analgous to knowing when to signal left/right and how to parallel park. It's not analogous to replacing the stereo, personally changing the oil or doing a break job.

 

[eeyrjmr]

Wasn't that limited to certain laptops? And if that's the case, grandma would call HP or Dell and ask them to walk her through fixing it.

With Linux, she'd have to call me or get on the linux boards and hope she can find an answer.

er no IF she is a person that needs such a support she gets her linux from RedHat,SuSe,Canonical,Mandriva in such a way they have phoned support

Likewise what if grandma got her grandson to build a custom PC for her and he got a OEM from say egg...
why provides the support then?


you can get phoned suppose for linux, to say otherwise is ignorance to the facts

 

[kac77]

Sorry, I don't know. I'm telling you what was relayed to me as we were walking out of work.

I know he still had to get the VPN working...but I don't know if that was what he was referring to or not.

Hell, if you run Ubuntu in VirtualBox, the virtualbox additions won't install from the gui. It acts like it's installing them, but it doesn't.

I always have to do it from the the cdrom directory. I don't have that problem when I run XP or Vista in virtualbox or VirtualPC.

I'm sure if I bothered to right every issue down, I could list at least a dozen things, but the truth is I find out the solution, fix it and hope it doesn't happen again or I give up and find a way to work around the issue (e.g. jEdit won't run in Ubuntu, despite the fact that I downloaded it using the built in downloader and installed it with taht tool as well).

Geanie works, so I use it instead, but there's no excuse for jEdit not running. Either it's a problem with Ubuntu or that version of jEdit was buggy....if it's the latter, then it shouldn't be available via the installer.

On the plus side, OS updates work well and with few exceptions don't require reboots.

I just download jedit and it ran beautifully. Look there's somethings that Ubuntu and the linux community could do alot better. But the package manager especially apt-get which is darn near bullet proof, that argument just doesn't hold water.

The problem used to exist back in the day but as of now I can't tell you how many programs I've installed out of the package manager. I've gotten locked packages maybe four times and each of those times was a result of me compiling my own deb package.

As for Virtual PC I've experienced the problem before. However, I restarted the program and was able to get the software to install. Also that's a particular software that is made from another company. What you are going to try and tell me Word has never massacred a document you've done. Where do you think "save often" came from?

 

[InorganicMatter]

er no IF she is a person that needs such a support she gets her linux from RedHat,SuSe,Canonical,Mandriva in such a way they have phoned support

Likewise what if grandma got her grandson to build a custom PC for her and he got a OEM from say egg...
why provides the support then?


you can get phoned suppose for linux, to say otherwise is ignorance to the facts

You just threw out your price argument. Boxed and supported Linux systems cost as much Windows.

 

[eeyrjmr]

You just threw out your price argument. Boxed and supported Linux systems cost as much Windows.

when did I put it on the table? strawman argument
your suggesting that with linux you shouldn't have to have any support whatsoever BUT for windows its ok? HYPOCRISY !!!
next you will expecting linux to support EVERY piece of hardware from the installCD... even tho in windows you are expected to install the drivers... HYPOCRISY !!!


people who buy OEM Windows from newegg (or whereever) don't get any phone support either do they? ie such people are competent enough to use other sources to find infomation to fix their problems

SUCH people are thus fine to just download linux for free and use.


THERE are some people that need phone support provided by their OEM, just cause they choose to use linux won't suddenly change that or even an Apple.

oh and shock horror... Dell sell machines with Ubuntu installed... I wonder who you could call JUST as if it was a windows machine...


strawman...

 

[Scali2]

next you will expecting linux to support EVERY piece of hardware from the installCD... even tho in windows you are expected to install the drivers... HYPOCRISY !!!

Well, at least virtually all hardware you buy comes with Windows drivers bundled, and the manufacturer will support them. If they don't offer and/or support linux drivers, then you basically have nowhere to go when you have problems, and you don't have the right to a working product.

Was fun when my ADSL connection was not working... I called my ISP saying the modem couldn't detect a carrier signal on the line...
ISP: What version of Windows are you running?
Me: I'm running FreeBSD.
ISP: Errr, what was that?
Me: FreeBSD, it's an Operating System, much like linux or other unix-like OSes.
ISP: Oh... well, we don't support that.
Me: Well, I can plug my modem into a Windows PC if you really want, but that isn't the problem... I've been using the same FreeBSD system with this modem for years, it's just that there doesn't appear to be a good signal on the line now.

In the end they sent a guy to check out the line. Turned out that the modem on their side of the copper line was busted. Good thing too, else I'd have to end up paying for it all.
But running an unsupported OS does make that sort of thing harder. You aren't entitled to support.

 

[`danny]

I love both Windows & Linux and will continue to use both as my IT career progresses. They both have their roles and that is that. However I do love people like my boss who insist "Linux systems are leagues more secure than Windows" and then never patch any of our *Nix or Windows boxes.