Looking for a good *VA for my next display

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Rock&Roll

[H]ard|Gawd
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So, I've spent the last year buying and trying a couple new displays. A 34UM95 which i only used for about 3 weeks before becoming bored with. And my Yamakasi Catleap that I just recently discovered doesn't like to display moving 3D dark scenes in Stalker games without spewing red line aritfacts across the screen.

Both monitors are IPS and exhibit all the glowy characteristics you can expect from IPS.

My monitor of reference is an 8-year olk SOYO TOPAZ S from 2007 that was behind this mega thread. This is a old school MVA monitor. It has horrible vertical gamma shift. So you have to look it straight on. And the pixel response is pretty slow but good enough for offline casual FPS. It's strength is it's ability to handle dark colors without glow or black crush.

So, a few things I want in my next monitor:
-*VA technology with good inky blacks and no glow---***but not black crush***
-27" 2560x1440 minimum size & res.
-Good pixel response
-85hz refresh would be awesome. But I suspect 60hz will be it.

I was keeping an eye out for the s34e790c to be a good next monitor. But, over here, it's not looking so good.

Anyone know of anything else I should be looking at?
 
I recommend the Philips BDM4065UC. It has 5000:1 contrast and the blacks are much deeper than the 3000:1 you see in AMVA+ panels. I have a GW2760HS right next to the Philips and it really makes a big difference.

Other than the Philips, there is the 21:9 Samsung you mentioned, and the UHDTV's that can do 4:4:4 with HDMI 2.0. I think the older Panasonic AX800 series were VA panels too but those are a real niche option since they're big and expensive.

In any case you're not getting 85 Hz, and pixel response will always be iffy regardless of which VA panel you go for. Also the "black crush" is inherent with VA.
 
Thanks for the links and product ideas. The Wasabi looks nice. But holy moly. 4k and high refresh. Somewhere there has to be a trade off. And, as nice as my catleap is, I think I'm gonna stick to a premium brand here that I can return if it sucks for any reason. I'm really bummed my Catleap artifacts on dark 3d scenes. I've confirmed it's the monitor not anything before it....

I am not the biggest PQ stickler and I'm far from being a photo editor. So my vocabulary may be misused when I say black crush. Time for a shitty photo of my MVA monitor. Here my blacks only start to "Crush" around #7. I've seen many monitors do way worse, and there would be nothing I could do to restore definition down this low. If I can get a panel that performs as good as what I've photographed, I'm a happy man.

kFp7AsE.png
 
With gamma set at 2.1-2.2 you should be able to get most modern AUO and Samsung VA to display all dark halftones, even the first three squares will be distinguishable in a dark room. (I don't know how the other matrices handle this exactly)
But its still the viewing cone in the middle where everything is darker and when you move the head the gamma in dark halftones shifts, especially horizontally on the AMVA+ (I guess its similar on SVA)
The gamma shift also causes the corners to brighten up slightly on a black screen and off-angle ("MVA Glow") more so on Samsungs than on AUO panels but its much weaker than IPS glow.
In games I prefer to use the LiftGammaGain function of Reshade/SweetFX this allows for precise adjustment and you can change gamma for each colour channel and midtones/shadows/highlights seperately.
 
I think that for a PC monitor IPS is your best bet and also get a nice VA TV screen and use that for gaming as well. That is what I do... I have done a LOT of research into PC monitors and unfortunately the only good options for gaming seem to be IPS.
 
It could be that crack habit I've picked up in the last two days but....I goofed around and split the case off my Catleap and reseated all internal cabling and made sure nothing was pinched....seems to have made a difference because now the artifacting issue is mostly gone.

It still happens. But rarely enough that I can live with it. At 60 and 85hz Things run pretty nice on the Yamakasi again. 120Hz still brings the artifacts to dark areas...But I'm barely pushing 60FPS at 2560x1440 anyway....Time to upgrade this 7970 and get a better DVI cable.

Anyways, I was still hoping to learn of some kick-ass VA displays. No one's really talking about VA--especially not for gaming. I thought there may be a passionate few lurking around here.

I know saying "no crush" and VA isn't possible...I'm saying relatively little crush is good enough for me. If it crushes so bad that everything looks like an overedited michael bay movie, I'm out. And response times don't have be the best for what I'm doing.
 
Tell me more about this black crush thing. Shouldn't VA with higher contrast be superior in dark scenes? I can make out #5 on an afternoon day with this test on the Samsung JU7100: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php

#5 if I look straight ahead. If I move my head up or down, the gamma shift allows me to see #4 as well. #3 is extremely faint at an angle. #1 and #2 are the only ones I can't see no matter where I move my head.
 
What I don't like about VA displays for gaming is that IPS monitors, in my experience, offers best response time and less input lag. Take it from me that have both the 32" Benq BL3200PT (VA) and the BL3201PH (IPS 4K) monitors. The BL3200PT is a fantastic less expensive monitor for working but the BL3201PH absolutely blows away the BL3200PT in terms of color rendition and gaming even though none of these monitors are dedicated gaming monitors.
 
insoc123 said:
What I don't like about VA displays for gaming is that IPS monitors, in my experience, offers best response time and less input lag. Take it from me that have both the 32" Benq BL3200PT (VA) and the BL3201PH (IPS 4K) monitors. The BL3200PT is a fantastic less expensive monitor for working but the BL3201PH absolutely blows away the BL3200PT in terms of color rendition and gaming even though none of these monitors are dedicated gaming monitors.
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I suppose what always adds mud to the water is not all monitors do the same level of logic processing that others do. All of my favorite monitors have been barebones or no osd with one or two inputs and a solid panel. The less "features" a monitor has the less logic based input lag it will have. And, IME, the only displays i've found to be too slow to game were HDTV's with all their picture processing BS.
 
Rock&Roll
I've never heard about a single *VA-based display that does not have black crush. It just the disadvantage of technology. Unless there is something for VAs like polarizer for IPS.

Here is what TFTCentralsays about mentioned above Philips BDM4065UC:

Viewing angles of the BDM4065UC were quite comparable to other VA panels we've seen in the past. Horizontally the viewing angles were not bad. As you moved you line of sight past about 45° contrast shifted and a pale tint appeared on the image. The image got progressively more washed out as you moved further away from a central point of view. On some older AMVA panels the image tends to go very yellow from a wide horizontal angle but on the BDM4065UC it just went pale and washed out instead. Vertically the contrast shift was more pronounced and the image became more washed out from a shorter angle. This was actually apparent slightly when using the screen from a couple of feet away on a normal desktop position. Being pretty tall, my line of sight was about 3/4 of the way up the screen if I looked head on. If I glance towards the bottom of the screen the image becomes slightly washed out due to the viewing angles. If you move further back from the screen for movies or games, you don't see this, it's only when up close and due to the sheer size of the screen.

Viewing angles were not as wide as IPS or PLS panels as you might expect given this is a VA matrix. They were not too bad though compared with a lot of other VA panels out there which was pleasing. The contrast shifts were evident here from wider angles, but there was very little colour tone shift thankfully which is far more noticeable on most other VA panels. Being VA based the panel did suffer from the off-centre contrast shift you will see from these technology panels. If you view a very dark grey image with a black background head on, the grey content is somewhat lost in the image and appears darker than intended. Only as you move your line of sight slightly away from a head on central field of view does the grey content appear again. This is common of all VA matrices, and is one of the reasons why IPS is so popular for colour critical work. It should be noted that not everyone would even see this issue or be bothered by it. The viewing angles are certainly much better than TN Film panels of course.
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Sounds like common VA display.
 
Rock&Roll said:
I suppose what always adds mud to the water is not all monitors do the same level of logic processing that others do. All of my favorite monitors have been barebones or no osd with one or two inputs and a solid panel. The less "features" a monitor has the less logic based input lag it will have. And, IME, the only displays i've found to be too slow to game were HDTV's with all their picture processing BS.
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This doesn't really apply to newer scalars, and most TVs have game mode which drastically cuts down on the input lag. Newer 4k monitors like the BL3201PT/PH are delay-free and have excellent pixel response.

Kreon said:
I've never heard about a single *VA-based display that does not have black crush. It just the disadvantage of technology. Unless there is something for VAs like polarizer for IPS.
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Black crush isn't as big an issue on newer AMVA panels when calibrated to 2.2 gamma, like Igluk said. I'd say the biggest issue is poor viewing angles which desaturate colors toward the corners of the screen and cause the VA glow/cone - an effect that pretty much ruins perceived black depth unless you decide to sit further back. Of course, the last tidbit assumes a larger monitor, and in fact my experience was with a BL3200PT (also a W800B, to a lesser extent), but I have to wonder how people deal with the poor viewing angles on these 40"+ VA displays
 
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Nikyo said:
This doesn't really apply to newer scalars, and most TVs have game mode which drastically cuts down on the input lag. Newer 4k monitors like the BL3201PT/PH are delay-free and have excellent pixel response.



Black crush isn't as big an issue on newer AMVA panels when calibrated to 2.2 gamma, like Igluk said. I'd say the biggest issue is poor viewing angles which desaturate colors toward the corners of the screen and cause the VA glow/cone - an effect that pretty much ruins perceived black depth unless you decide to sit further back. Of course, the last tidbit assumes a larger monitor, and in fact my experience was with a BL3200PT (also a W800B, to a lesser extent), but I have to wonder how people deal with the poor viewing angles on these 40"+ VA displays
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As an owner of a 40+ VA, let me just say that black crush is non-existent at default gamma. On Witcher 3 I even lowered the game gamma slide when I test for gamma, as the blackest part that can barely be seen require turning down the gamma, not up as in most monitors. Also, gamma shift shows up only in rare instances of dark solid colors. On a windows desktop and gaming screen, gamma shifts are difficult to see. I think technology has moved far enough that we can dispense with this notion. Fwiw, I returned the BL3200PT because of the issues with what you described.
 
Cyph said:
As an owner of a 40+ VA, let me just say that black crush is non-existent at default gamma. On Witcher 3 I even lowered the game gamma slide when I test for gamma, as the blackest part that can barely be seen require turning down the gamma, not up as in most monitors. Also, gamma shift shows up only in rare instances of dark solid colors.
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How far back are you sitting in relation to your monitor/TV? I think I had to be around 120cm to rid myself of gamma-shift entirely with the BL3200PT.

While we're on the topic, I think the only time I actually experienced severe black crush was when I decided to replay KOTOR. If anyone here remembers Manaan - the aquatic planet - I experienced bad black crush while doing the underwater sections. I could make things out, but it was particularly dark, so much so that I think the user was meant to experience a degree of black crush when traversing the level. I typically calibrate to linear 2.2 gamma, though. The problem may of been alleviated a bit had I calibrated the gamma curve to sRGB, which is generally significantly lighter. Plus, linear 2.2 I believe can cause a minor degree of black crush on some IPS panels.
 
It sit about 2.5ft back for normal desktop and I do notice the slight gamma shift in the corners when windows log in but it goes away once the desktop shows up. I sit back further if I can use my Xbox controller when I game. On my previous Dell, I always have to turn up in game gamma because I always get black crush.

If there's an in game gamma test, and you calibrate it right and still get black crush, that means the game was meant for it to be fully black. On the other hand, older games like KOTOR may not have the deepest color gamut.
 
There's minor gamma shift on the BDM4065UC, and honestly it's not a big problem compared to the performance of any IPS panel when looking at black/dark scenes. I can see it at times for sure, but you can always drop the gamma if it's really hampering the experience. Outside OLED there is no better alternative, it's as simple as that. You can maybe find a great IPS panel with zero backlight problems and low levels of glow, but the overall black depth is still closer to grey than actual black. I find it far more important than any dE number people like to concentrate on.
 
Cyph said:
As an owner of a 40+ VA, let me just say that black crush is non-existent at default gamma. On Witcher 3 I even lowered the game gamma slide when I test for gamma, as the blackest part that can barely be seen require turning down the gamma, not up as in most monitors. Also, gamma shift shows up only in rare instances of dark solid colors. On a windows desktop and gaming screen, gamma shifts are difficult to see. I think technology has moved far enough that we can dispense with this notion. Fwiw, I returned the BL3200PT because of the issues with what you described.
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Are there any 24" panels like the one you've mentioned, with little to none black crush when calibrated?
I can deal with "VA corner shift", I mostly sit properly before my display, but grey and its gradations that turn into pitch-black solid black when I sit like that pretty much render whole "good blacks on VA" thing pointless.
 
Kreon said:
Are there any 24" panels like the one you've mentioned, with little to none black crush when calibrated?
I can deal with "VA corner shift", I mostly sit properly before my display, but grey and its gradations that turn into pitch-black solid black when I sit like that pretty much render whole "good blacks on VA" thing pointless.
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There are not that many monitors to choose from
You can see in this thread:
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1803228

For AUO AMVA+ matrix, the iiyama is still the slightly superior choice compared to the other 24''.
But it is only available in EU/RU/JP.
It OCs to 76hz, compared to the P2414H which does 80hz and it will be slightly slower on the darkest pixel transitions than the Dell.

Samsung SVA matrix offers only one choice currently, that is their own S24E510C monitor.
There are no reviews but its probably going to perform similar to the other curved Samsung monitors with same matrix. (S27D590C, S34E790C...)

There are also some 23.6'' with Innolux Super MVA matrix. VG2437Smc, 243V5QHAB, XB2481HS. Not a soul tested one of those.
But looking up on panelook indicates they use a stronger AG coating.

edit: The FG2421 and HKC X3 use 23.5'' high refresh, high contrast Sharp UV2A and ASV panels.
They have their own "quirks", weak reds and as far as I know don't handle black crush well, for the sake of completeness I add them.
 
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Rock&Roll said:
***but not black crush***
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Black crush is actually only an optical illusion

If you calibrate VA and IPS to gamma say 2.2 then you can't possibly have less shadow details on VA than IPS but you will still perceive black crush. Why? Because VA will have gamma 2.2 on tiny spot in the middle of where your eyes cross with screen perfectly. There will be different spot for each eye. Outside of it the further away you look the more screwed up gamma showing details you should not even see making impression that there is 'black crush' in the middle.

I was contrast ratio believer and had three VA screens and each of these was making me obsess about contrast ratio, details in black and gamma. Blacks were never good and image washed out. Then got U2410 and despite contrast ratio being total crap it still felt better.

Anyhow, with my current IPS I do not have obsessive thoughts like eg. "this could have more contrast" or "gamma is screwed up" or "if I move my head a little I will see more details!". Actually I completely forget that LCDs have non-perfect blacks, in my head monitors black = real black. I dunno, even if it is visibly brighter than pitch black bezels and room background it is still totally ok, probably because it doesn't change when I move my head or something. On VA with C-PVA which had really good blacks it was always in my face wrong, always an issue.

oh, and with IPS, any IPS, even those older models with weak ~500:1 contrast ratio you will at least have perfect pitch black blacks when there is light in the room. With VA's you cannot have that because of gamma shift.

Summarizing:
1. VA suck balls
2. IPS rulez
 
Black crush can get very real in some PVA monitors, where calibrated or not, details and information disappears from screen. I would not call it an optical illusion, as optical illusions can not deceive cameras, while PVA displays can and will exhibit black crush with both organic and electric viewers.

One would need o have bionic eyes with color calibrators implanted to perceive black crush after "tiny" head shifts like xoR states. In Lagoon black level test there 1/255 degrees of black intensity between the first squares. But at a Seiki 39" i need to adjust my head position more than 2 inches apart to "shift" squares. In other words: to induce a 0,04% variation of perceived black level, i need to move my head across more than 5% of the screen diagonal. And this is a worst case scenario, as a PC user
rarely deals with screens that size.

Pitch black and IPS should NEVER appear on the same sentence. PERIOD.

IPS glow is more pronounced than VA gamma shift when we compare CURRENT generation displays.

With that said there is a usage scenarios where i would not recommend a VA:

- Color critical work for printing stuff. yes, some people out there still PRINT things instead of web-publish them:rolleyes: . For this special kind of work, not even AMVA is suitable.

For FPS gaming, AFAIK only the Eizo Foris and the Philips 40" 4k put out pixel transitions times on par or better than IPS. No 4k display can be called gamer-friendly, but the lesser evil today would be the Philips, since the IPS competition suffers from backlight bleed, IPS glow and smaller size, without offering much lower input lag nor faster average pixel response times.
 
I had a good CRT for a long time and i never could understand how people could live with a 1000:1 contrast display, the colors for me looked washed out (milky/dull).
 
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Here's a test pattern I created:

It has a black background, and three circles in a vertical column. The top circle is RGB [1 1 1], the second is [2 2 2], and the third is [3 3 3].

On my FW900, which is calibrated approximately to a gamma of 2.4 (although the low end is below the range of my regular instruments so I have yet to map it out perfectly), I can clearly make out all three if I view the image in fullscreen and turn off the lights. And that's with a peak luminance of under 90 nits, so those 256 levels have to fit within a fairly narrow range.

I prefer this to the lagom test, as it's hard to view that page without perceptual interference from the high contrast of the side scroll bars in firefox (even in fullscreen).
 
spacediver said:
Here's a test pattern I created:

It has a black background, and three circles in a vertical column. The top circle is RGB [1 1 1], the second is [2 2 2], and the third is [3 3 3].

On my FW900, which is calibrated approximately to a gamma of 2.4 (although the low end is below the range of my regular instruments so I have yet to map it out perfectly), I can clearly make out all three if I view the image in fullscreen and turn off the lights. And that's with a peak luminance of under 90 nits, so those 256 levels have to fit within a fairly narrow range.

I prefer this to the lagom test, as it's hard to view that page without perceptual interference from the high contrast of the side scroll bars in firefox (even in fullscreen).
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On my current Samsung SD24590PL with NCX's calibrated profile (which, for some reason, no different from SRGB default/Samsung basic) I can't see shit. But with profile from ru.gecid review I can barely make out some circles (that is in the room filled with sunlight atm). If I set Gamma mode to 1 I sure as hell could make out 2 of them easily. I guess I should try it in dark room/env.

Either way, Samsung PLS sucks.
 
yea if you're able to make out that test pattern in a lit room, I'd say there was something wrong with your display :p
 
On both of my LCDs I cannot see circles. There is some very vague something but not really anything identifiable without raising gamma level. This is exactly how it should be, near black shades should be almost indistinguishable from black and not create sharp edges. That is if someone want to pictures look immersive and not look for jpeg/mpeg compression artifacts and other banding effects.

Here are good VA-killer examples: http://monitortest.blogspot.com/
I tested in on my VA screens and it was not that those details were not visible, they were visible as they are on my current IPSes, there was just this sparkling false-3d effect and even slight movement of head caused those details to be seen too much giving impression of there being black crush where in reality right in the middle of this black crush it is how image should look like.

Here are two examples of VA the so called "black crush"

http://s24.postimg.org/jobr90o51/IMG_0140_JPG_2.jpg

It is the middle of this circular thing that have proper colors. If I remember correctly those brighter bars were #080808 enough to be clearly visible on properly calibrated display. On those photos bright stripes in the middle are the same brightness as black on sides and there is quite visible difference in contrast between them. This is what make details that should never be seen to be visible. Like I said, mostly compression artifacts, also flaws in game engines that do not do high enough color depth with dithering to make transitions to black to not look like banding.

BTW. because gamma shift wash out colors some VA screens have by default gamma that is calibrated to be higher (especially at darker shades) to offset this. If that is the case there is actually less details than should be visible. But I am generally comparing apples to apples, that is calibrated displays to calibrated displays. And in this case VA are like TN: they cannot be calibrated. I will repeat it one more time with more visible font to: VA panels cannot be properly calibrated!
 
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I think your definition of black crush is different from the normal usage, black crush is when different variations of black or gray crushes into one solid black instead of having details. This is the result of low contrast panels like IPS. What you are describing is gamma shift, the cone like effect. Yours is really bad and is not symbolic of all VA monitors. That cone would drive me crazy if it was on my monitor. The newer VA monitors are pretty good straight ahead.

Also, to test contrast, gamma should be at 1.0. If you push gamma far enough, any rgb value can be seen, but it's no longer representative of the original. 1,1,1 becomes 15,15,15 or higher if gamma is moved up far enough.
 
some new VA improved, some actually regressed compared to older S-PVA or (S-)MVA.

I had Dell 2407wfp A04 and while contrast was not earth shattering it had really good viewing angles for a VA




full gallery

Then I had C-PVA and first gen A-MVA monitors and was really disappointed by their viewing angles and response times. Maybe those improved A-MVA with better viewing angles would do much better but personally I fell in love with IPS performance and there is no going back. I would even go as far as to say that the only LCD type that should exist is IPS.

I think your definition of black crush is different from the normal usage, black crush is when different variations of black or gray crushes into one solid black instead of having details. This is the result of low contrast panels like IPS.
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To correct differences in black level there is some darkest shades lost BUT it is not visible. As long as there is no sharp difference between black and those darkest shades it will be perceived properly as black. Brains visual cortex doesn't care so much for some 'details' as it cares for sharp ugly banding that calibrating to low gamma in near black region does. When using CRTs most of those near black shades were always also almost not visible. Games, movies and pretty much everything including image compression algorithms assume few near black levels to not be really visible. It is VAs that make them visible that is not normal. There are no details lost on VA, just too much details seen.

This is the result of low contrast panels like IPS. What you are describing is gamma shift, the cone like effect. Yours is really bad and is not symbolic of all VA monitors. That cone would drive me crazy if it was on my monitor. The newer VA monitors are pretty good straight ahead.
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Yes, this is this cone like effect that create illusion of black crush. There is not black crush but showing too much dark details on VA. It is optical illusion.

as for new VA, I did not test them. Surely there is improvement compared to C-PVA and first gen A-MVA, maybe even making this technology actually usable again... I will however never suggest this tech to anyone ever again because IPS advantages are far more important imho to contrast ratio. This comes from big contrast ratio fan...
 
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