Microsoft Points Draw Class Action Suit

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An attorney from Philadelphia has filed a class action lawsuit over Microsoft Points. Yes, you read that correctly…Microsoft Points. Huh?!?

Microsoft "engaged in a scheme to unjustly enrich itself through their fraudulent handling" of his account, Lassoff charged in papers filed earlier this week in U.S. District Court for Eastern Pennsylvania. But Lassoff claimed he and at least "hundreds" of other Xbox Live users have been overcharged. "Microsoft breached that contract by collecting revenues for digital goods and services which were not provided," Lassoff said in his lawsuit.
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On a related note, I am filing a lawsuit against the U.S. Treasury because they make pennies….and every time I buy something off the Taco Bell value for $0.99 menu I NEVER have enough left over to buy something else….which is bullshit…so I am suing.
 
Steve said:
On a related note, I am filing a lawsuit against the U.S. Treasury because they make pennies….and every time I buy something off the Taco Bell value for $0.99 menu I NEVER have enough left over to buy something else….which is bullshit…so I am suing.
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This pretty much sums up my thoughts. Though looking at his track record, the guy obviously is just looking for a quick buck from whoever he can. I hate worthless garbage like this.
 
from article said:
As for Lassoff, he's no stranger to suing big tech companies and other organizations. Records show he sued Google in 2006, claiming the search ads he placed fell victim to click fraud. He also sued Bally's Casino in Atlantic City in 2005, claiming he was attacked by a drunken patron while sitting at a poker table.
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Wow, this guy is something else. He sues at every misfortunes.

I should sue Huffy for all the times I skinned my knees falling off their bikes as a kid.
 
Azhar said:
Wow, this guy is something else. He sues at every misfortunes.

I should sue Huffy for all the times I skinned my knees falling off their bikes as a kid.
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Our tax dollars have to be put to use for something other then actually helping the country. We already support people like Octomom and plenty of other bullshit lawsuits like this one. So what's one more deadbeat living off the rest of the country while people keep losing jobs?

Next month this guy will be suing Nintendo for doing the same thing with Wii Points...
 
Steve said:
On a related note, I am filing a lawsuit against the U.S. Treasury because they make pennies….and every time I buy something off the Taco Bell value for $0.99 menu I NEVER have enough left over to buy something else….which is bullshit…so I am suing.
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This... only if Taco Bell refused to give change, and held your penny at the store until you had enough other change to buy something. In the end... Taco Bell will always have a left over 10-20 cents unless you can find the perfect combination of items to use your balance up completely. From Taco Bell's (or Microsoft's) standpoint, they win no matter what. Its sneaky, makes people mad, but hardly illegal.

I hate lawyers that sue over things that annoy them, and not on the grounds of legality.
 
DeathbyPutz said:
This... only if Taco Bell refused to give change, and held your penny at the store until you had enough other change to buy something. In the end... Taco Bell will always have a left over 10-20 cents unless you can find the perfect combination of items to use your balance up completely.
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I could see this being a valid argument IF you only bought one thing...ever...from XBL....never shopping again so you lost your leftover points.

Normal people drop $25.00 on 2000 points. Then they buy an XBL Arcade game for 800 points, then maybe a game add-on for 400 points and then a movie or something. You have 280 points left over.

The next time I add points, I spend $12.50 on a 1000. Now I have 1280 points. Now I can buy 4 movies for 320 points each and I have 0 points left.

So yes, I could see someone being mad if they only wanted to make a one time purchase...ever....from XBL. :)
 
I hope this guy wins. I never did like Microsofts point system and I think it would be better to just charge straight cash. Instead of points they could just charge you after the month is up like any other service.
 
To be fair, this case does have a reasonable abstract (regardless of what dirt bag lawyer picks it up). With pennies after a transaction, I can bank those from several different transactions with several different vendors, and I really lose nothing. With Microsoft and Wii points, items sold to me actually cost me more than advertised because I have points left over after a single purchase (such as buying 2000 points then grabbing a DLC for 1250). It's analogous to gift cards, in which I have a nonrefundable balance that can only be used at a single store. However, its more restrictive as I can't partially pay for something with a gift card to use up left over credit and then cover the rest with cash. In order to buy something else, I need to buy another Microsoft gift card, and maintain this habit of overpaying. With no alternative payment method, I'm forced to buy products at prices that were not revealed to me via advertising. Those are dangerous commercial waters.
 
Steve said:
I could see this being a valid argument IF you only bought one thing...ever...from XBL....never shopping again so you lost your leftover points.

Normal people drop $25.00 on 2000 points. Then they buy an XBL Arcade game for 800 points, then maybe a game add-on for 400 points and then a movie or something. You have 280 points left over.

The next time I add points, I spend $12.50 on a 1000. Now I have 1280 points. Now I can buy 4 movies for 320 points each and I have 0 points left.

So yes, I could see someone being mad if they only wanted to make a one time purchase...ever....from XBL. :)
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That assumes you actually want that perfect combination of purchases. Do you buy them because your money has already been taken in a non-refundable manner, or because you actually want a movie from XBL :p

Feels a little bit coercive to me, even if unintentional (I don't think Microsoft really intended for this environment to exist. When given the choice between malice and incompetence, I go with the latter).
 
I dont agree with suing, but I agree with the principle. I have had 60 MS points sitting around for almost a year waiting for something I want to get. and I can't just buy 20 points to DL a RB Song (not to mention the 80 pt songs suck hard, unless your a fan of spongebob)

To me, MS is basically earning interest on my money that I can't spend. But the point about not ever buying something again is taken, I will buy something, but I doubt I ever will have a 0 pt balance.
 
Fharakin said:
I dont agree with suing, but I agree with the principle. I have had 60 MS points sitting around for almost a year waiting for something I want to get. and I can't just buy 20 points to DL a RB Song (not to mention the 80 pt songs suck hard, unless your a fan of spongebob)

To me, MS is basically earning interest on my money that I can't spend. But the point about not ever buying something again is taken, I will buy something, but I doubt I ever will have a 0 pt balance.
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Right, so Microsoft will always have more money from EVERY customer than they will have delivered products. Smart (slightly sneaky, but definitely not uncommon) business until people start realizing that they're being ripped off, or forced to buy certain things to use up points (like Steve), or forced to spend more money to use the points that they have.

A buy-what-you-want business model would be better for the consumer, but then Microsoft will have to do a cash conversion of current points accounts. Pretty simple, but I'm sure it will take them some time.
 
I guess the easiest solution to this is a name your own number of points payment method. In stores keep selling the 1000, 2000... cards that they have now. But then online or via the xbox360 let you purchase any number of points that you want where you pay X amount per point.
 
Exavior said:
I guess the easiest solution to this is a name your own number of points payment method. In stores keep selling the 1000, 2000... cards that they have now. But then online or via the xbox360 let you purchase any number of points that you want where you pay X amount per point.
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That's one solution, then the case would have no area to complain if points were refunded to people who would have, in hindsight, taken advantage of that feature.

Alternatively, since you're already paying Microsoft via Credit/Debit, why not just pay directly for all digital goods instead of going through the strange currency conversion?

I have a feeling they're going to voluntarily change this scheme before the lawsuit gains any momentum. I've been reading that they're not happy with how the currency system has performed from a customer approval point of view.
 
Fharakin said:
To me, MS is basically earning interest on my money that I can't spend. But the point about not ever buying something again is taken, I will buy something, but I doubt I ever will have a 0 pt balance.
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This is where you are wrong. Business models are simple anymore. Anybody who uses a simple model in big business won't be there very long. They are extremely complicated factoring numerous components to make it work. The most complicated models are used by traders who find links between extremely unrelated things like cotton t-shirts and baby food. I'll bet a ratpadz that interesting on your money is part of their model and part of how they price a point or justify the value a point gives.

On the point of the lawsuit. When you bought the points...you bought the points. You did NOT buy the movie, subscription, etc. You use the points to "trade" for those items. Therefore his argument is not valid IMO since he is trying to make a link where there is not one. The only way he would have a valid argument is if the TOS said he could get a refund for unused points. But...

23.6 Refund Policies.
Unless otherwise provided by law or in connection with any particular service offer, all charges are non-refundable and the costs of any returns will be at your expense.
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Trepidati0n said:
...They are extremely complicated factoring numerous components to make it work. The most complicated models are used by traders who find links between extremely unrelated things like cotton t-shirts and baby food. I'll bet a ratpadz that interesting on your money is part of their model and part of how they price a point or justify the value a point gives.
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Which is why no one has really agreed with the lawsuit having any real legal foothold... but from a customer-satisfaction standpoint, the points system comes across to the consumer as a sneaky way for Microsoft to earn a few extra bucks off of the consumer's money. It is a business model where Microsoft will always receive over-payments or (infrequently) exact payments for goods.

As was said earlier, it is a lot like gift cards... where the company gets their money up front for the promise of potential goods which may increase in price by the time the gift card is used, making the card worth less than when it was purchased... or pure profit if the card is lost or never completely used (an alarmingly significant % - $43mil gain for Best Buy).

The difference is that with the Microsoft points, you can't add 25 cents to cover that last 20 points you might need to purchase the goods you want. You are forced to pay another $12.50 for 1000 more points, and get goods that you may not want, just so that your money doesn't go unused.

Point values may be based on an intricate calculation that takes into account the average unused balance from all accounts, and the goods may be cheaper because of it... but it will always appear to be sneaky.
 
Trepidati0n said:
This is where you are wrong. Business models are simple anymore. Anybody who uses a simple model in big business won't be there very long. They are extremely complicated factoring numerous components to make it work. The most complicated models are used by traders who find links between extremely unrelated things like cotton t-shirts and baby food. I'll bet a ratpadz that interesting on your money is part of their model and part of how they price a point or justify the value a point gives.

On the point of the lawsuit. When you bought the points...you bought the points. You did NOT buy the movie, subscription, etc. You use the points to "trade" for those items. Therefore his argument is not valid IMO since he is trying to make a link where there is not one. The only way he would have a valid argument is if the TOS said he could get a refund for unused points. But...
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Fortunately for us in the US, consumer law protects commonly held interpretations of terms of service, even if the common interpretation is at odds with what the company actually meant (see Implied Warranty). You'll notice that there is large grouping of people that interpret Microsoft points as currency for digital goods, not a product in and of itself, and this is a reasonable observation as it behaves very similarly to currency. Given this, we also assume other qualities to this currency (such as the ability to exchange for an arbitrary amount). When you see a price listed in terms of Microsoft Points, your first thought when trying to determine how much they're selling the item for is how much each point costs. However, what's not immediately clear is that you have to spend well over this initial estimate due to a strange and rigid system in which you can only buy large round numbers of points in bulk. You end up paying far more for an item than it was advertised to cost.

Also, I disagree. Business models are quite simplistic. The number of variables doesn't lead to complication, only bloat. Complication is the elegance of the algorithm, not the size of its footprint. This model seems bulky and ill-advised, likely hastily constructed as a stop-gap solution for people who did not want to input credit/debit information into their 360 in order to buy games, but instead spend cash at a storefront (some people feel more secure that way). Selling the same packages online via credit/debit probably simplified the interface and allowed them to deliver on time. A crude solution that is seemingly catching up with them. One can speculate on a more malicious reason, but I think we've all heard that one :)
 
I can certainly understand being upset if you had a few hundred points and nothing to spend it on but if you have 80 points or less sitting around we're literally only talking about a buck here or less. I've certainly spent $1 on worse things so those times when I have 80 points floating around it really doesn't bother me one bit. Hell most of us probably lose track of more money than that in change a year.
 
MrSteel74 said:
I can certainly understand being upset if you had a few hundred points and nothing to spend it on but if you have 80 points or less sitting around we're literally only talking about a buck here or less. I've certainly spent $1 on worse things so those times when I have 80 points floating around it really doesn't bother me one bit. Hell most of us probably lose track of more money than that in change a year.
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Valid. A law suit is a little extreme in this instance. I think concerted consumer pressure would accomplish more. Microsoft has already indicate they're seriously considering dropping the points system and just letting us all buy things directly via credit/debit.
 
Yall are picking this apart more than it needs to be. When you buy those points to agree to the fine print that comes with them. No refunds. Don't like it? Don't buy points.

As for the "extra" points left over. So what? Have 80 points and need 280 for something? Buy more points. Or plan your purchases so you are left with a 0 balance. Crying over a buck or two THAT YOU CAN STILL SPEND is pointless.
 
AlcoJaguar said:
That's one solution, then the case would have no area to complain if points were refunded to people who would have, in hindsight, taken advantage of that feature.

Alternatively, since you're already paying Microsoft via Credit/Debit, why not just pay directly for all digital goods instead of going through the strange currency conversion?

I have a feeling they're going to voluntarily change this scheme before the lawsuit gains any momentum. I've been reading that they're not happy with how the currency system has performed from a customer approval point of view.
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I wonder how many people actually read the article which already points out that Microsoft has been working on an alternate method to the points system...

{quote]
Microsoft's Points system has drawn separate criticisms from other corners—to the point where the company is considering scrapping it altogether. Microsoft Xbox product manager Aaron Greenberg told G4TV this week that it might do away with the points system and move to direct cash purchases on Xbox Live Marketplace.

The problem: Microsoft sells points in batches that frequently don't correspond to the number required to buy particular items, meaning customers often have leftover points—which they paid for—that they can't use. "We never intended to mislead people," Greenberg said.
[/quote]

In fairness to MS here, they didn't originate the concept of the point system, that concept has been around for a long long time. Many companies through the years have used that concept. I don't think MS had any intentions of getting one over on their customers. I believe they truly were just interested in providing a unique service that people could use on their game systems without having to give financial information over the xbox.
 
micro transactions cost more though so just charging you 20 cents or 1.25 costs more than charging you 3 dollars (in on transaction) which is probably why they do it.

Then again maybe I'm an idiot for buying points for fallout add-ons. I also bought points for dragon age which hopefully can also be spent on mass effect 2 stuff.
 
can you use your points to pay for the live gold membership? or at least like a partial payment?

I had points left in my account when I sold my 360, i wonder if they will be there if I ever buy a 360 again, say 4 years from now if MS really doesnt make a new system.
 
I have 482 points in my Balance and there is nothing I want to buy. I can't really complain since I did get 3 1600 Point cards for free from Target during the holidays (the 482 is what is left of those cards).
 
AlcoJaguar said:
You'll notice that there is large grouping of people that interpret Microsoft points as currency for digital goods, not a product in and of itself, and this is a reasonable observation as it behaves very similarly to currency.
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Not only that, but Microsoft actually refer to the points as the 'coin of the realm' so they market it as currency too.

I don't have an Xbox, My only experience with Microsoft points was GFWL and the fallout 3 addons for the PC, they where something like 800 each but points could only be bought by the thousand (as far as I could see), meaning I'd always have some left over unless I bought other things, but I don't want anything else they sell and I shouldn't be forced to buy something just for the sake of it. Its not just the value, its the principle.

(In the end I just bought the game of the year DVD with the addons included from amazon for 75% of the price the addons alone would have cost from live)

I dislike the points system, and i won't use it. But i do see that it has value for some, particularly for small items. Not that they'd listen to me, but my recommendation to Microsoft would be to:

a) Reduce the multiples that points can be purchased in to x100 or even x10, (they could offer a small price-per-point incentive for the current larger amounts over the smaller ones if necessary)

b) Provide two 'buy' buttons on big ticket items like expansions (Anything over $10), one for points, one for cash. That way people who want to continue using points can do so, and those without credit cards (for example, kids who's parents charge their marketplace accounts) can still get stuff.

c) Sell 'charitable donations' where users can dump any remaining points in exchange for a donation to charity on their behalf. Not everyone wants to donate to charity, but it shows goodwill on Microsoft part and that they aren't just being greedy.

If they did something like that I'd consider using their service, until then I'm physical media and steam exclusive.

As for the lawsuit.
Is the current points system illegal? IANL but no, I don't think so.
Is the current points system unfair? Yes, in my opinion it is.
 
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