MPAA – RIAA: You Have No Right To Perpetual Access

Terminus said:
Well if I bought a computer from Dell and that computer would be such that it would never ever become functionally outdated then he has a point.

So when do songs, movies, and works of creative art ever become functionally outdated?

I await your answer Mr. Lawyer.
Click to expand...

Well thats easy to answer, when the 8track stops working


All kidding aside, since when does the media with which the provide these works last forever, or become outdated and require you to purchase new forms of distribution.
Sure there are means of copying but according to them we shouldn't backup the things we've purchased that we know will fail.
 
They are right you should't expect perpetual running DRM servers.

Hence you should NOT buy media that is based on DRM servers. Buying Games/Movies/Music with the keys in the hands of some corporation that will turn it off as soon as it suits them, is ridiculous.

Yahoo, Walmart, Microsoft planning to shutter their music DRM servers are the perfect example of why you should not buy Games (like C&C4) that require connection to DRM servers to play. This was the problem with games like Spore. It wasn't the install counter as much as it was the need for the DRM server.

I don't buy anything that needs to be connected to a remote server to work.
 
The following is posted without reading any other comment on this thread:

Ask yourselves. What would happen to humanity's civilizations if the vision of "non perpetual" access to intellectual property the Demon, sorry, Lawyer portraits on his letter would realize?
 
Reimu said:
It has been mentioned numerously that all media can technically work in perpetuity (Look at Stradivarius, work of Da Vinci). Playback of those said media and maintenance for them however should be the right and the duty of the ones entitled to them! This is the real problem with DRM, as RIAA is arguing that one merely subscribes to the work, and doesn't actually retain a reproduction that (s)he can do with as (s)he wish.

Personally, I think that one now has little choice but to support RIAA/MPAA as little as possible (within legal limits). The 'subscription-DRM' argument puts to doubt the value in paying for art work/music, leaving the consumers with shutting the wallet and discouraging trade with RIAA as the only credible recourse against such a malicious argument.
Click to expand...

Kahoona said:
Why do these organizations still exist exactly?
Click to expand...

Because we let them exist.
 
jwhazel said:
I don't see any tangible difference between bit-rot on a cd and DRM servers going offline. The alternative is that copyright holders and licensees enter into an agreement to maintain DRM servers forever so that DRM protected files will last forever. Record labels aren't required to issue you a new cd when yours start to fall apart.
Click to expand...

The tangible difference is that the media is designed to last a long time (in the case of DVD and CD). We were even fed this information in the form of a sales pitch when the formats were new, particularly CD. I recall demonstrations showing how well they play after they were intentionally scratched up. With DRM laden content, he who holds the key to the authentication server can simply decide that the old DRM content is now obsolete and force everyone to re-buy. What a great way to make up for a slumping 3rd fiscal quarter...

Also, you made comment (that I failed to quote) concerning DRM-free content being freely available. Please point me toward that content when it comes to Hollywood films...
 
Hey jwhazel, I hear the RIAA's hiring. You should go apply.
 
The tangible difference is that the media is designed to last a long time (in the case of DVD and CD). We were even fed this information in the form of a sales pitch when the formats were new, particularly CD. I recall demonstrations showing how well they play after they were intentionally scratched up. With DRM laden content, he who holds the key to the authentication server can simply decide that the old DRM content is now obsolete and force everyone to re-buy. What a great way to make up for a slumping 3rd fiscal quarter...
Click to expand...
You use the phrase "force to re-buy". Can you point to something in any DRM contract that says you'll be penalized for not rebuying the material should they decide to discontinue it? I'm not aware of any DRM that would enforce this policy. The point of DRM is that it's more convenient to some people. I pay the price of 10 cd's a year to stream music from a catalog of millions of tracks and transfer what I want to my mp3 player. I do this fully knowing that someday I probably won't have access to the tracks I've downloaded. If the service pulled it's plug tomorrow, I will have gotten my moneys worth many times over. I've never seen DRM music being marketed as lasting a long time. It's main claim to fame is convenience. If you feel you need to own media that has a much touted longevity, then by all means, buy physical media. But the point remains that physical media, just like DRM media, will not last forever. Nor should it be expected to.

Also, you made comment (that I failed to quote) concerning DRM-free content being freely available. Please point me toward that content when it comes to Hollywood films...
Click to expand...
I don't really know what you would qualify as "Hollywood" movies. I use this service: http://www.eztakes.com/store/
Several movies made in Hollywood there. If you're are referring to "new mainstream movies", I can't really provide a source as thats not really something I'm into. If there is no such source, then I redact my previous post and change to "there are multiple sources of DRM free music available". However if DRM free "Hollywood" films are not available today, I'm sure they won't be far behind, just like music.

Hey jwhazel, I hear the RIAA's hiring. You should go apply.
Click to expand...
Thanks for adding something productive to the conversation. Maybe next you can pull out the "my dad can beat up your dad" quip. Thats always a great discussion winner.
 
jwhazel said:
Several movies made in Hollywood there. If you're are referring to "new mainstream movies", I can't really provide a source as thats not really something I'm into. If there is no such source, then I redact my previous post and change to "there are multiple sources of DRM free music available". However if DRM free "Hollywood" films are not available today, I'm sure they won't be far behind, just like music.
Click to expand...

:rollseyes: You do realize that drm free music was out before drmed music?
 
nicknations said:
When I BUY a game, it is mine and I shall do what I wish with it.
Click to expand...

Actually, you purchased a license to play the game as long as you like. you can't do "anything" with it since you don't own the content.
 
:rollseyes: You do realize that drm free music was out before drmed music?
Click to expand...
Do you mean DRM free digital music that was legal? No I was not aware of that. If you mean DRM free music in general, then yes, I obviously knew that. My point was that music services started sprouting up and taking off by offering DRM free music. As internet bandwidth increases, I can see mainstream movies following shortly.
 
until the *AA's or similar entities do not make a single cent from a digital download of any form I will continue to pirate. I'll buy a t-shirt or something to contribute to the artist. Support the artists not the industry.
 
jwhazel said:
Thanks for adding something productive to the conversation. Maybe next you can pull out the "my dad can beat up your dad" quip. Thats always a great discussion winner.
Click to expand...

Your posts aren't worth arguing over. That's why I'm not bothering adding something productive for you to disect.

But I'll humor you: I bought something. It's mine. As long as I don't sell it or copy it out to others, I can do whatever I pleased with it.

You and the RIAA can kiss my ass.





















Oh yeah, and my dad can beat up your dad.
 
What about Books?? You buy the media once and if you take care of it it lasts forever.(or hundreds of years) The same could be said about art you hang on the wall. Why should music be any different unless those greedy bastards are worried about making their huge money of the people who made the music in the first place. Artist and Authors dont have big companys leeching tons of money off the people who create the art. They do get a cut of the pie so to speak but it seems like music business people try to take a bigger piece of the pie than they deserve.
 
jwhazel said:
Do you mean DRM free digital music that was legal? No I was not aware of that. If you mean DRM free music in general, then yes, I obviously knew that. My point was that music services started sprouting up and taking off by offering DRM free music. As internet bandwidth increases, I can see mainstream movies following shortly.
Click to expand...

CDs are digital.
 
I get my MP3s from Amazon and rip the songs from CDs I purchase.

These guys are just shooting themselves in the foot pissing off those who do attempt support the artist and music industry.
 
But I'll humor you: I bought something. It's mine. As long as I don't sell it or copy it out to others, I can do whatever I pleased with it.
Click to expand...
Trust me, you haven't said anything yet that has humored me yet. As for your statement about "buying things", thats a really broad statement. If you're talking about buying copyrighted material, and think you can do whatever you please with it, then I have some sad news to share with you: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap2.html#202

What about Books?? You buy the media once and if you take care of it it lasts forever.(or hundreds of years) The same could be said about art you hang on the wall. Why should music be any different
Click to expand...
Lasting "forever" and "hundreds of years" are two completely different things. The fact that literature exists in several types of media (books and ebooks) parallels the idea that music exists in several different types of media as well (cd's and drm mp3's for example). The fact is that 1.) you have a choice of media to suit your needs 2.) the media will not last forever 3.) the copyright owner and/or licensee should not be expected to perpetuate and support the media forever.

They do get a cut of the pie so to speak but it seems like music business people try to take a bigger piece of the pie than they deserve.
Click to expand...
I agree with you 100% there, but thats a whole different discussion.
 
I'm gonna go bitch at Sony because I can't find a Betamax player anywhere. I have a perpetual right to every piece of media I buy fuckers!
 
It's the way of the future. First, they cut costs on manufacturing, cutting their costs and allowing us consumers to consume at a much faster pace as our hardware breaks down four times quicker, and now they make our media last a set length of time so we need to consume that at a faster pace as well. The more we consumers consume, the more profit they get :)
 
Isn't there a clause in the FDCPA that legally allows the circumvention of a copy protection methods if the software or product cannot be used as a result of an outdate or unsupported protection method? For example, there are companies that literally sell software “patches” for old software that use irreplaceable hardware dongles. Wouldn’t removal of the license/authentication server legally allow for the reverse engineering and removal of the copy protection method?
 
jwhazel said:
MS provides 10 tracks a month to keep "forever" because they are in non-protected MP3 format. Theirs no DRM and no authentication, thats why you get to keep them forever. .
Click to expand...

What I found funny is that I sort of see your point yet saw this and thought it was self-defeating. :)

I do think the realm of perpetual access could be obtained with digital media, but I know it hasn't worked out so well in practice. Some of my old games just will flat out not work with newer computers. But, I do have CD's older than some posters here that still sound as good as when I bought them. With care, and say no outside interference such as fire, flood, etc, that my CD and DVD media will probably last my lifetime.

Are companies obligated to continue keeping DRM servers alive forever? I don't know if they can. New DRM models will come out, new formats. I don't know. I just try to pick my battles with DRM and attempt to keep DRM laced media to a minimum. Some games I do buy with DRM. But, I do not think they should ever just pull a plug on a format across the board. For example, it would suck ass if all developers everywhere simply decided to stop all support for MP3 playback.
 
“We reject the view,” he writes in a letter to the top legal advisor at the Copyright Office, "that copyright owners and their licensees are required to provide consumers with perpetual access to creative works. No other product or service providers are held to such lofty standards. No one expects computers or other electronics devices to work properly in perpetuity, and there is no reason that any particular mode of distributing copyrighted works should be required to do so."
<Ahem> FUCK YOU!!!!!!!
 
jwhazel said:
The point of DRM is that it's more convenient to some people.
Click to expand...

Just to clarify; Distribution over the internet is what's convenient. Saying DRM is convenient really doesn't make sense since the DRM isn't what makes the experience convenient. DRM is only capable of making the experience less convenient; If you still want your music after the point at which it's not available to you anymore, that's surely not as convenient as being able to listen to it forever.

Although I do understand the rest of your argument and I have to agree with you. I don't expect Valve to run the Steam servers forever. A long time, yeah. But forever? Of course not. I think people are taking it to mean; "No copyrighted material of *any kind* should be expected to last forever." I don't think that's what was said.

Whether or not that's what the RIAA wants is something else altogether, IMO, but I don't think it'll be up to them.
 
Spewn said:
Just to clarify; Distribution over the internet is what's convenient. Saying DRM is convenient really doesn't make sense since the DRM isn't what makes the experience convenient. DRM is only capable of making the experience less convenient; If you still want your music after the point at which it's not available to you anymore, that's surely not as convenient as being able to listen to it forever.

Although I do understand the rest of your argument and I have to agree with you. I don't expect Valve to run the Steam servers forever. A long time, yeah. But forever? Of course not. I think people are taking it to mean; "No copyrighted material of *any kind* should be expected to last forever." I don't think that's what was said.

Whether or not that's what the RIAA wants is something else altogether, IMO, but I don't think it'll be up to them.
Click to expand...

Valve has already said that if they shut their servers off, then they'll release a patch that allows everything to run in offline mode though.
 
OregonLAN said:
Isn't there a clause in the FDCPA that legally allows the circumvention of a copy protection methods if the software or product cannot be used as a result of an outdate or unsupported protection method? For example, there are companies that literally sell software “patches” for old software that use irreplaceable hardware dongles. Wouldn’t removal of the license/authentication server legally allow for the reverse engineering and removal of the copy protection method?
Click to expand...

Haha, I meant DCMA, not FDCPA. Jesus I need some coffee...
 
Screw the RIAA.

And guys... stop picking on jwhazel. He's obviously not all there so don't waste your time.
 
Kahoona said:
Valve has already said that if they shut their servers off, then they'll release a patch that allows everything to run in offline mode though.
Click to expand...

Ah, well I didn't know that. Still, it sounds to me that he's referring to the fact that I can download the digitally-distributed stuff I own at any time from anywhere(basically), not my use of the stuff I already have on my system.
 
Zepher said:
Actually, you purchased a license to play the game as long as you like. you can't do "anything" with it since you don't own the content.
Click to expand...

You know I decided to put that statement to the test. I keep hearing this "you purchased a license" line. So I grabbed my copy of Burnout Paradise for 360 (closest thing I had) and I actually read the entire box text and the manual. NOWHERE does the word "license" appear. In fact the only thing I can see is the usual don't make or distribute illegal copies text (and a disclaimer that the online features may be turned off at some point in the future). So from everything I have read on the packaging, I don't see how I purchased a "license" of the game and not a copy for my use. I don't see ANYTHING on the box, manual or disc that would give EA the right to stop my use of the game.
 
To each his own. It's way more convenient for me. I don't go around bashing people who choose to buy physical media.
Click to expand...

You are saying you prefer to buy DRM music tracks that will be taken away at some point due to the provider just deciding to move to a new format instead of something like Zune that provides DRM free?
 
bonsai said:
I'm gonna go bitch at Sony because I can't find a Betamax player anywhere. I have a perpetual right to every piece of media I buy fuckers!
Click to expand...

If you took care of your Betamax player, you'd still be able to play your tapes :) In this case, we have no control over the maintenance of the DRM servers and must rely on others to maintain our media for us.

Expecting it to last forever certainly isn't an option, all things must go eventually, but like most RIAA threads the people get a little carried away.
 
1/2 bent said:
Thats why i just buy cd's the old school way. If i need to put it on a device i do and i always have my cd. I like to keep my music as a collection like people keep movies. I still have most of my cassette's from my teenage years that i will someday move over to cd or whatever media we use then lol. I have an iphone that i never even use to listen to music on . I just listen to cd's in the car.
Click to expand...

Geeez man, I don't even know what a CD is anymore. Crazy how MP3s have changed how I do things.
 
Hmm Can't we apply the same reasoning to the BAR system.

A lawyer has to pass the bar to be a lawyer but there is no guarantee of the bar or a state/province/fed backing up the bar thus if they don't feel supporting the bar they can discontinue it thus....

You get the point. He is a douche bag of the nth degree,
 
Music and Movies should be upgradeable.
If you just own the license than those movies I owned on VHS then on DVD now to be bought on Blu-ray Similarly the Records, cassettes and now CD's. I should only have to pay the difference for the newer format media that I would trade in the old cassette VHS or whatever.
This is my theory and i'm sticking to it. Then again i'm Canadian and we don't have the kinds of lawyer criminals as you have in the U.S. (well not to this extreme anyways). We jsut get hosed on CD and DVD tariffs which inadvertently saved us from this kind of thing.

As a musician and artist it just turns my stomach to hear these guys trying to make it out like they are on a crusade to 'save the artists' musical rights.
I would encourage anyone here to have a read through this. It gives you some idea as to what kinds of pirates the industry really is.
(I'm by no means a big "Hole" fan but I love the speech)
http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/print.html
 
grunching, but

Does the original license say that they will provide access forever? If not, what do you expect when dealing with the most evil corporation known to mankind? Of course they intend to screw you over and force you to relicense. That's the basis of their business.. get the suckers over and over and over. They don't even need new customers that way, just enough to replace those that died or went bankrupt ...
 
Snowdog said:
They are right you should't expect perpetual running DRM servers.

Hence you should NOT buy media that is based on DRM servers. Buying Games/Movies/Music with the keys in the hands of some corporation that will turn it off as soon as it suits them, is ridiculous.

Yahoo, Walmart, Microsoft planning to shutter their music DRM servers are the perfect example of why you should not buy Games (like C&C4) that require connection to DRM servers to play. This was the problem with games like Spore. It wasn't the install counter as much as it was the need for the DRM server.

I don't buy anything that needs to be connected to a remote server to work.
Click to expand...

You know I used to worry about this until I realized that I own the games -so to speak- enjoy them, finish them, and understand they don't own me. I'm not going to worry about it if I don't have that game the rest of my life. That's when I realized steam was okay. Steam will be probably be around long enough for me to keep playing certain games that aren't nostaligic enough for me care how long I keep them, as long as I have an account that is. There are other important things in life, no matter how much I love gaming. So it's an investment worthwhile to me.

I also don't hear of too many games not running through some kind of crappy DRM scheme or Steam like service as of lately anyway. It's really getting tough to avoid in this day and age.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top