multi-need systems stragegy advice

facesnorth

Limp Gawd
Joined
Feb 5, 2007
Messages
240
Not sure which subforum is best to post this in since it addresses mutliple issues, but this seems like as good as any.

We cancelled satellite TV a year ago and I have a 7 yr old Dell Inspiron 531 I've been using to stream my parents Xfinity on demand and Netflix for TV. Quality is a bit pixelated sometimes, even with 15MB down cable Internet. Not sure if the hardware is playing a part in that. In any event, I'm looking to replace this with something that I can use mostly to stream these video services, as well as play pandora, hopefully without pixellation. Secondarily, we like to play games sometimes but nothing too graphics intensive, just stuff like Civ IV and V.

Now here is why this is in this subforum. For 2 years I have been keeping my family photos, music, and any ripped movies that I have on a 3TB Seagate GoFlex external hard drive connected to this PC. I've always intended to create a better backup solution, I just kept putting it off. Now the last time I booted up this PC, Windows (Vista) said there were errors on the external HD and it needed to perform some sort of scan on it, I believe it was chkdsk. It took a long time, and after it was finished my music files were still there, but my photos, personal documents, and the backed up hard drive of every PC I've ever owned was no longer there. The folders just didn't exist anymore. I immediately tried installing some free data recovery software on the Vista PC and running it, even performing a deep scan, and it only recovered a few files, not much. First of all, is there anything else I can do to recover this data?

But second of all, I am looking to create some kind of storage solution that is fast enough to serve stored HD videos and music over ethernet without any lag, and has a reasonable amount of redundancy that it would at least be unlikely that I should lose any data short of a house fire. I had been thinking WHS until they cancelled Drive Extender, and then the whole product. I'd consider Windows Server, but I'm not sure I share Microsoft's vision for this product. I'd always respected ZFS from reading about it here, although the one thing that scares me a bit is the inability to grow the size of an array. However, it seems reasonable to just add a new 6 drive array when it comes time to increase. So when I heard that FreeNAS had ZFS built in now, I thought this might be the way to go.

Then fInally, I'm also trying to build a machine to host PBX in a Flash, just for my family's personal use. So my question is, how many machines realistically should I expect to build for these various purposes? Should I be just building one big machine and running all of these systems on it virtually (PBX in a Flash, FreeNAS/ZFS, and a media server slash client slash game box combo)? I'm looking for suggestions on the most cost effective way to meet my goals without making sacrifices on the way it should be done. Basically, I don't mind spending some money, just don't want to waste any money when it could have been done in a more efficient way.

I have 4 brand new Samsung EcoGreen F2 2TB HD's that are 4 years old and I've never used them. I bought them intending to make a backup solution, and ran into money issues and never got around to doing anything with the drives. Can I utilize these drives in this system? Obviously the age will reduce their longevity, but they've never been powered up. I know a 6 drive array is ideal with raidz2, would 2 larger HD's be wasted, should I just buy 2 more 2TB drives for this? I feel stupid enough having bought these and not used them for 4 years, and having lost data as a result. I'd at least like to use them now if possible. But if it's just a bad idea to use drives this old, even unused then just let me know.
 
Now here is why this is in this subforum. For 2 years I have been keeping my family photos, music, and any ripped movies that I have on a 3TB Seagate GoFlex external hard drive connected to this PC. I've always intended to create a better backup solution, I just kept putting it off. Now the last time I booted up this PC, Windows (Vista) said there were errors on the external HD and it needed to perform some sort of scan on it, I believe it was chkdsk. It took a long time, and after it was finished my music files were still there, but my photos, personal documents, and the backed up hard drive of every PC I've ever owned was no longer there. The folders just didn't exist anymore. I immediately tried installing some free data recovery software on the Vista PC and running it, even performing a deep scan, and it only recovered a few files, not much. First of all, is there anything else I can do to recover this data?
Not an expert in data recovery by any means but here are some tips I could provide:
1) Don't add any new data to the hard drive as it may over-write the existing data
2) Stop using the HDD until you've actually lined and read about all the multi-tude of data recovery options out there. The more you access the hard drive, the lower the chance you have of recovering the data.

But second of all, I am looking to create some kind of storage solution that is fast enough to serve stored HD videos and music over ethernet without any lag, and has a reasonable amount of redundancy that it would at least be unlikely that I should lose any data short of a house fire. I had been thinking WHS until they cancelled Drive Extender, and then the whole product. I'd consider Windows Server, but I'm not sure I share Microsoft's vision for this product. I'd always respected ZFS from reading about it here, although the one thing that scares me a bit is the inability to grow the size of an array. However, it seems reasonable to just add a new 6 drive array when it comes time to increase. So when I heard that FreeNAS had ZFS built in now, I thought this might be the way to go.

Then fInally, I'm also trying to build a machine to host PBX in a Flash, just for my family's personal use. So my question is, how many machines realistically should I expect to build for these various purposes? Should I be just building one big machine and running all of these systems on it virtually (PBX in a Flash, FreeNAS/ZFS, and a media server slash client slash game box combo)? I'm looking for suggestions on the most cost effective way to meet my goals without making sacrifices on the way it should be done. Basically, I don't mind spending some money, just don't want to waste any money when it could have been done in a more efficient way.
If you're willing to spend the extra cash, time, and are willing to get your hands into some really technical options, you could do it with just one machine. A quad-core or higher core count CPU running ESXi with working direct pass-through for multiple GPUs and storage controllers with 16GB of RAM or more should do the job.

Just how much are you willing to spend total?
I have 4 brand new Samsung EcoGreen F2 2TB HD's that are 4 years old and I've never used them. I bought them intending to make a backup solution, and ran into money issues and never got around to doing anything with the drives. Can I utilize these drives in this system? Obviously the age will reduce their longevity, but they've never been powered up. I know a 6 drive array is ideal with raidz2, would 2 larger HD's be wasted, should I just buy 2 more 2TB drives for this? I feel stupid enough having bought these and not used them for 4 years, and having lost data as a result. I'd at least like to use them now if possible. But if it's just a bad idea to use drives this old, even unused then just let me know.
Will have to bow out to other's experiences on this.
 
You can run everything in a single machine using VMs except maybe the media client. I use ZFS on Linux together with SnapRaid for my media library, that way I can dynamically add disks if I run out of space and most disks can sleep as you are not going to access all media files at the same time except during syncs. I suppose SnapRaid works on FreeNAS, too.

Just as a note, you never let chkdsk try to repair a possibly corrupted disk without any backup or fallback solution. Even if it has a chance to bring back all your data, if the disk itself has a problem and not only the filesystem, you are possbibly making it worse. Always start by making a block level backup of your disk, that way get the maximum amount of data off the disk, every sector is read and nothing is written. You can then start the recovery by running chkdsk on the disk or on a snapshot of the image and start from scratch should anything go wrong.
 
Thanks for the replies. No data has been written to the external HD since discovering the loss. The file recovery program was installed on an internal HD on the Vista PC. And then after running that file recovery program, and being unable to recover everything (even with a deep scan) I disconnected the drive. Would appreciate any further ideas on how to recover my files.

As for my system goals, I am willing to spend whatever it takes, but my goal is not to build it on one system, but rather to do it as cost effectively and efficiently as possible. I don't want to waste money. So if it's actually cheaper to do it in separate systems with less expensive components then this would be preferable. I don't want to sacrifice the goals of the system. One major benefit I can think of to separate systems is that if one goes offline, it doesn't take everything with it.

Thanks.
 
Here's a sample gaming capable HTPC to start from:
$120 - Intel Core i3-4130 CPU
$78 - ASRock B85M-ITX Intel B85 mITX Motherboard
$78 - Kingston HyperX FURY HX316C10F/8 8GB DDR3 1600 RAM
$150 - PowerColor TurboDuo AXR9 270 2GBD5-TDHE/OC Radeon R9 270 2GB PCI-E Video Card
$113 - Crucial MX100 256GB SSD
$40 - Corsair 430CX V2 430W PSU
$48 - Coolermaster Elite 120 Advanced mITX Case
---
Total: $627 shipped

As for the server, really dependent on two factors:
1) Whether or not you want ECC RAM capability. Does improve your chances against silent data corruption but will end up costing significantly more
2) Whether or not you're fine with older and/or used hardware.

I recommend reading this article to get a feel as to why you really should go with ZFS:
http://arstechnica.com/information-...-and-atomic-cows-inside-next-gen-filesystems/

And here's a how-to as well:
http://arstechnica.com/information-...h-using-the-zfs-next-gen-filesystem-on-linux/

Oh and as for streaming, I would highly recommend making sure that HTPC is actually connected via by ethernet as that will ensure better streaming performance than wireless.
 
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Definitely going to use ethernet. I am leaning towards ECC for peace of mind. Would prefer not to use older or used hardware if possible. Also, I've got a rack, so rackmounted is nice, but not needed by any means if it bumps the price significantly.
 
I'd like to order the equipment for the storage server tonight if possible. Any suggestions?
Looking at btrfs over zfs now.
 
I'd like to order the equipment for the storage server tonight if possible. Any suggestions?
Looking at btrfs over zfs now.

Without hard drives and rackmounted:
$250 - Intel Xeon E3-130V3 CPU
$180 - Supermicro MBD-X10SLM-F-O mATX Intel C224 Motherboard
$186 - 2 x Kingston KVR16LE11/8KF 8GB DDR3 1600 ECC Unbuffered RAM
$113 - Crucial MX100 256GB SSD
$80 - Seasonic G Series SSR-550RM 550W Modular PSU
$68 - Rosewill RSV-R4000 4U Server Case
----
Total: $877 plus tax and shipping

The case can only hold up to 8 hard drives. So kind of limits your storage capability. As such, it may be a good idea to get the biggest drives you can afford now witht the above setup.

If you want this to be a storage monster, then I recommend the following:
$250 - Intel Xeon E3-130V3 CPU
$180 - Supermicro MBD-X10SLM-F-O mATX Intel C224 Motherboard
$186 - 2 x Kingston KVR16LE11/8KF 8GB DDR3 1600 ECC Unbuffered RAM
$113 - Crucial MX100 256GB SSD
$140 - Seasonic X750 Gold 750W Modular PSU
$227 - LSI 9211-8i PCI-E Storage Controller
$26 - 2 x Norco C-SFF8087-D SFF-8087 to SFF-8087 Multilane SAS Cable
$16 - Norco C-SFF8087-4S SFF-8087 to Multi-lane SATA Reverse Break-out Cable
$330 - NORCO RPC-4220 4U Rackmount Server Case
----
Total: $1468 plus tax and shipping

The reverse breakout cable allows you to connect the motherboard's SATA ports to one of the SFF-8087 ports on the backplane of the Norco case. So the above setup will let you connect 12 hard drives in hot-swap bays to the server with room to connect an additional 8 hard drives in the remaining hot-swap bays later on.
 
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Thank you for your suggestion, I am going to review both options and consider which one to do.
 
Any advantage to going with the E3-1231 v3 instead?

Also any thoughts on putting OS on a USB key vs an SSD? I assume the SSD was just in there for the OS.
 
Any advantage to going with the E3-1231 v3 instead?

Also any thoughts on putting OS on a USB key vs an SSD? I assume the SSD was just in there for the OS.

I would not since some of those Supermicro mobos might ship with an older BIOs that doesn't support that newer CPU. Plus, you're really not going to notice a difference between the two CPUs anyway.

The SSD is also there to store any virtual machine images you might want to run. Personally, I'd go the SSD route: Better performance and more flexibility.
 
Gotcha. I'm slightly intrigued by what you meant by older and/or used hardware, how much savings it could mean, and what the potential risks are.
 
Gotcha. I'm slightly intrigued by what you meant by older and/or used hardware, how much savings it could mean, and what the potential risks are.

Sorry I just noticed your post: By older/used hardware, I was mainly talking about the storage controller: Going used there would save you at least $150. $300 if you end up buying the second controller. You could go used on the CPU and motherboard as well and that should save an additional $200. The main risk with going with used hardware is the lack of warranty should something go wrong. In addition, there's also the risk of varying quality of care for the parts: One part could have been treated perfectly by its previous owner or the opposite.
 
Gotcha. I'd be willing to go used on the Storage controller if I could save that much. If the storage controller goes bad do I risk losing data? Or just replace it and everything is back up and running? I'll prob go new on mobo/cpu.
 
I also got another build list for you that's basically matches what I recommended above but for less:
$250 - Intel Xeon E3-130V3 CPU
$250 - Supermicro MBD-X10SL7-F-O mATX Intel C224 Motherboard
$186 - 2 x Kingston KVR16LE11/8KF 8GB DDR3 1600 ECC Unbuffered RAM
$113 - Crucial MX100 256GB SSD
$140 - Seasonic X750 Gold 750W Modular PSU
$26 - 2 x Norco C-SFF8087-D SFF-8087 to SFF-8087 Multilane SAS Cable
$16 - Norco C-SFF8087-4S SFF-8087 to Multi-lane SATA Reverse Break-out Cable
$330 - NORCO RPC-4220 4U Rackmount Server Case
----
Total: $1311 plus tax and shipping
 
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Awesome, thanks. I still haven't pulled the trigger but plan to very soon using your recommendations. I've just been taking a little extra time to research everything. Same with regard to the streaming and games client above, in case you think of any alternatives there also.

So basically this Mobo has the storage controller built in? Would you expect there to be any performance difference between the 2 options?
 
Awesome, thanks. I still haven't pulled the trigger but plan to very soon using your recommendations. I've just been taking a little extra time to research everything. Same with regard to the streaming and games client above, in case you think of any alternatives there also.
None really. The CPU, RAM, case, SSD, and GPU for the gaming capable HTPC setup have dropped in price BTW since I posted last month. So I highly recommend buying now while the prices are dropped.
So basically this Mobo has the storage controller built in? Would you expect there to be any performance difference between the 2 options?

Correct. Nope.
 
Greetings. Would a bigger graphics card such as the R9 280 work with that media client build? Would I need a bigger PSU in that case?

Was also considering maxing out the RAM to 16 right away.

And considering the SSD with slightly faster writes.

Any of these completely wasteful in your opinion? Thanks!
 
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Greetings. Would a bigger graphics card such as the R9 280 work with that media client build? Would I need a bigger PSU in that case?
At $185, that's a bit overpriced since you can get this Powercolor R9 280 card for $25 less:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...norebbr=1&cm_re=R9_280-_-14-131-570-_-Product

Yes you would need a larger PSU. I recommend this PSU:
$50 - XFX TS Series XFX TS 550W PSU

Was also considering maxing out the RAM to 16 right away.
Overpriced since if you hurry NOW, you can get this G.Skill RAM for less:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231615

You really won't notice a difference.

FYI, all three parts that I recommended above are for Black Friday only. So buy them ASAP!

EDIT: Speaking of Black Friday sales, this is the lowest price I've seen for a new Core i5 CPU at so I highly recommend splurging if possible:
$165 - Intel Core i5-4440 CPU
 
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Awesome.

I just bought the i5 CPU and PSU from Amazon. And the GFX card and RAM from newegg.

I'm in a buying mood in case anything else pops up or if you know of any deals associated with the storage server which I'll be looking to piece together soon as well.

Thanks man.
 
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Was just now comparing mobo's

Would this be a small step up from that ASRock? I like ASUS and wondering if that Intel chipset would give me a better LAN connection. Also like the UEFI bios in case I ever repurpose this device. Was also looking at this but don't know if that's worth the extra money.
 
I just noticed actually in the product specs for the graphics card that it says 750 watt PSU minimum is needed. Is this true or will that 550w def be enough?

Thanks again
Not true and that 550W will be enough.
Was just now comparing mobo's

Would this be a small step up from that ASRock? I like ASUS and wondering if that Intel chipset would give me a better LAN connection. Also like the UEFI bios in case I ever repurpose this device. Was also looking at this but don't know if that's worth the extra money.

The Intel NIC on that Asus motherboard would be a bit more reliable and allow for faster file transfers but your internet usage would basically be more or less the same. As for the eVGA mobo, not worth it.
 
I just bought the Asus mobo on macmall for $101 shipped.

And bought the case on Amazon for $44.99. It had jumped from $39.99 to $49.99, so it's a reasonable compromise.

The only thing I haven't yet bought is the SSD. Just trying to decide if I want that Crucial or the Samsung, but if better write speeds won't make a difference I'll prob go with the Crucial.

I wish the Logitech dinovo mini's were still made, I haven't found anything comparably good for a wireless mouse/keyboard combo.

What do you suggest for an OS for this client, Dangman? Any deals
 
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No real OS deals AFAIK. Just go for Windows 8.1. It has under the hood performance improvements over Windows 7. If you happen to have a spare legit Windows 7 key however, use that instead. Then wait for Windows 10 to be released and upgrade the OS then.
 
I also got another build list for you that's basically matches what I recommended above but for less:
$250 - Intel Xeon E3-130V3 CPU
$250 - Supermicro MBD-X10SL7-F-O mATX Intel C224 Motherboard
$186 - 2 x Kingston KVR16LE11/8KF 8GB DDR3 1600 ECC Unbuffered RAM
$113 - Crucial MX100 256GB SSD
$140 - Seasonic X750 Gold 750W Modular PSU
$26 - 2 x Norco C-SFF8087-D SFF-8087 to SFF-8087 Multilane SAS Cable
$16 - Norco C-SFF8087-4S SFF-8087 to Multi-lane SATA Reverse Break-out Cable
$330 - NORCO RPC-4220 4U Rackmount Server Case
----
Total: $1311 plus tax and shipping

Since my last post I've built my Media client and have been using it for several months. I'm getting ready to revisit my storage solution. Wondering if I should rethink this to get this significantly cheaper? What would be some more inexpensive solutions that still offer redundancy, performance, etc? I really like the incremental snapshot feature that btrfs offers. I also like how ECC ram based systems ensure against bitrot. So I'm looking for the most inexpensive solution that best ensures data integrity against drive failure or deterioration, and does not bottleneck overall home data access performance needs.

I'd love hot-swappable drives, but that's not really critical by any means. I'm more concerned with power cycles triggering equipment failure than I am with any sort of downtime in accessing my data.

Thanks!
 
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Since my last post I've built my Media client and have been using it for several months. I'm getting ready to revisit my storage solution. Wondering if I should rethink this to get this significantly cheaper? What would be some more inexpensive solutions that still offer redundancy, performance, etc? I really like the incremental snapshot feature that btrfs offers. I also like how ECC ram based systems ensure against bitrot. So I'm looking for the most inexpensive solution that best ensures data integrity against drive failure or deterioration, and does not bottleneck overall home data access performance needs.

I'd love hot-swappable drives, but that's not really critical by any means. I'm more concerned with power cycles triggering equipment failure than I am with any sort of downtime in accessing my data.

Thanks!

The main reason why I recommended that server setup all those months ago is that it was the cheapest bang for the buck system possible using new parts that also allowed for 20 hot-swappable hard drives. Remember that the motherboard already has a LSI storage controller built in. Separate, we're talking ~$120 used to $250 new for that card alone. So getting the motherboard for $256 is a steal especially since it already comes with multiple Intel NICs and IPMI and KVM over IP tech. Also that the Norco case has 20 hot-swap bays. Adding a 5in3 hot-swap bay to almost any case can cost around $90 to $100. So not only are you getting an extra 5 hot-swap bays, you're also getting an entire case as well. That saves you at least $100 to $200 over a ATX case with hot-swap bays added after the fact.

There are ways to get that system to be cheaper but that would mean drastically cutting down the amount of hard drives supported, spotty ECC RAM support, and possible incompatibility with certain used hardware.
 
Got it. So realistically this is the best way to go then. I just wasn't sure. Jeeez it's so expensive to build a decent storage server, haha. So would you say that this parts list is still fairly current, no real changes at this time or coming up in the next couple of months?

Thanks again.
 
Those parts are fairly current. But there will more than likely be changes when Intel's Skylake platform his the market in a few months. But since this is a server, I'd aim for the tried and true route rather than bleeding edge.

A file server can be cheap but it won't be fast or as safe for your data like the more expensive setups:
$53 - AMD A6-6400K APU
$64 - GIGABYTE GA-F2A88XM-D3H FM2+ / FM2 AMD A88X mATX Motherboard
$48 - Kingston HyperX FURY HX318C10F/8 8GB DDR3 1866 RAM
$66 - XFX TS Series 550W PSU
$50 - NZXT Source 210 Elite White with Black Front Trim ATX Case
----
Total: $281 shipped.
 
Sounds good, I think I'll stick to the more reliable build. Any reason not to get the newer 1231V3 instead of the 1230V3 originally suggested?
 
Sounds good, I think I'll stick to the more reliable build. Any reason not to get the newer 1231V3 instead of the 1230V3 originally suggested?

Better chance of the 1230V3 being supported out of the box by the motherboard.
 
Got it. So realistically this is the best way to go then. I just wasn't sure. Jeeez it's so expensive to build a decent storage server, haha. So would you say that this parts list is still fairly current, no real changes at this time or coming up in the next couple of months?

Thanks again.

Have/will you consider lightly used equipment?
If so, check out item #3 in my for sale thread:
http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1041335565

If not ...sorry for the wasted space.
I'm usually firm on prices but it really is just sitting in my basement and
I am 100% sure I am not going to use it - could use the money for my
other projects..so.... it's gotta go.
 
No space wasted... I'm not familiar enough with all this equipment to make a determination on that, but would appreciate Dangman's objective input on the matter if he has any. Thanks.

edit: considering what I'd still need to buy from the original list, I'm not sure that the savings would be significant enough to warrant the extra hassles or risks associated with buying used equipment.
 
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Well two things:
1) You're not suppose to sell or promote selling items outside of the FS/FT forum FYI. So that's bad.

2) I'm pretty sure it crosses an ethical boundary somewhere if I promote another user's FS/FT thread.
 
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