My own frustrations with Vista

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nigerian_businessman

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So I decided to give it a real try since my stepdad unknowingly bought a copy thinking it would run on their computer which is a bit dated.

Now, I'm not going to universally slam it here. There are things I love about it. The interface update is nice. I like the new start menu (with 1 caveat, I'll get to that later). I like that I don't need separate software for my Windows Mobile 5 Smartphone anymore, especially considering the clusterfuck that was activesync on XP. I'm a huge fan of built-in drive encryption, even if there are other solutions out there for XP, having it available on the fly is nice. Not all of the 'usability' improvements are actually bad, although for now most of them just get in my way.

However, I'm still of the mindset that this OS really doesn't offer much as far as an 'upgrade' goes. Heres why:

  • File & Disk Permissions hell. I have a lot of disks and partitions, and the new security measures consistantly stand in my way of doing simple tasks with no clear workaround. For instance, I tried to import my photo album from F:\My Pictures into the Windows Photo Gallery. I was confronted with an error stating that the folder, or its parent, were set as either a system folder or hidden and that the operation couldn't be completed. I searched through the properties to find out how to change the flags (an incredibly simple thing to do on linux, but thats another story) with no luck whatsoever. I attempted to change ownership of the whole drive from the Admin group to myself. Didn't help. Windows suggestion in the error was to copy the folder to my Pictures folder on the system drive. Nevermind that the folder is 30gb and perfectly fine right where it is. Also, I attempted to remove a partition in the Computer Management console. Attempted, because there is no way for me to do this. I attemtped to change ownership and all that happy horseshit. None of it made a difference. The option to delete the partition is greyed out. I guess I will have to once again switch over to Linux to actually do something I want to do with my computer.
  • Random unexplainable slowdowns - Now, my main desktop is no screamer by any standard. Single core A64 3200+, 1gb ram, X800Pro video, mix of various PATA and SATA drives. Still, I got an experience score of 4.2, which isn't too bad considering the max is 5.9, and puts this computer in the higher-mid-range of systems. So why is it that when I want to navigate into folders in the Start menu, my computer will at times freeze for up to 30 seconds. I'm trying to chalk this up to the indexing service and this being a new installation or something, but really I don't know where this slowdown is coming from. I'm not doing anything intense, just trying to browse the start menu. The start menu on my previous Windows XP install had scroll buttons at the bottom and top from all the programs I had installed and it was snappier than the start menu on a nearly fresh install of Vista. Go figure.
  • Usability improvements - I said not all of them. But most of them I could do without. Renaming stuff for the sake of change does very little in terms of actually increasing productivity. In fact, considering Windows is pretty standard, it really only makes people familiar with it (pretty much everyone) scratch their heads and go WTF? Where is... The control panel is once again dumbed down to the point of being complex. It's like the people who designed it decided too many choices are intimidating, so instead of presenting them all at once, we'll make it so you need a fucking tomtom to navigate our maze of vague selections. Changing around Windows Explorer once again without presenting any easy way of getting back to the classic way of doing things was also a big fuckup on their part. Where the fuck is my File Edit View etc menu? Was there something wrong with over 10 years of conventional usability that it needed to be tossed out?
  • UAC Prompts - I don't care what anyone says about "increasing security". This is god damn rediculous. Downloading and extracting a zip file full of png icons for rocketdock into the \Program Files\Rocketdock\icons\ folder took nothing short of 4 approvals for ONE zip file. I had to do this over and over and over again to get my dock icons installed. Never was I presented with any simple way to turn the notifications off or give permission to do the same type of task for a short while. Turning off UAC for 15 minutes so I could actually get some fucking work done isn't an option either, since that requires a reboot. So, once I reboot, UAC is going off. I'll take my chances, kthxbye.

Since I must be some kind of masochist, I will probably keep it installed and just figure out ways to disable and remove most of the shit I don't like, since I'm sure there's some way around most of this crap. My rating? Nice OS if you don't have to pay for it. Otherwise, avoid.
 
actually, explorer's File, Edit, View, etc menus are still there, you just have to hit ALT to get to them. I think there's a way to enable it permanently, but I dont' know it right now. But UAC is very irritating when trying to copy stuff around, but once I had things the way I like it UAC just kinda faded into the background, popping up only every now and again.

The one thing I DO miss about explorer is the dynamic tasks pane. Used to be able to go into "My Music" open the folder for the album I wanted to listen to and click "Play All" and be done with it. Now I have to go in and hunt down my playlist inside the folder and double click it. I understand that they want to push the concept of doing all this from within the media player or whatever, but it's just annoying to me.
 
you just press Alt to make the menu bar show up. then you can go into Tools>Folder Options to make it show up for good.
 
markt435 said:
you just press Alt to make the menu bar show up. then you can go into Tools>Folder Options to make it show up for good.
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Thank you, I knew there was a way, just never bothered to hunt it down since I rarely used the menus in XP. (kb shortcuts FTW).
 
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1164682 <<<--- Read this and learn something about why things are different now.

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1170936 <<<--- Then read this and learn why you had issues installing something in the Program Files directory.

As for the slowdowns, the first week or two you'll experience that on a frequent basis, but over time the machine will end up being faster for it.

As for the Control Panel and how it's different, that all comes from the sheer amount of research and face to face interviews Microsoft did with over 100,000 people worldwide when committing to the specific GUI features that people seem(ed) to want compared to the older methods.

As for "the shit you don't like," it's obvious with that little review (and the probably short period of time you ran or are continuing to run Vista - anything less than a comment offered by someone with less than say a full month of usage just blows right on by me as babbling) that you're already slanted towards a strong dislike of Vista.

Based on the very first sentence there and the comment "So I decided to give it a real try" I'm led to believe you installed it just to find things to complain about - if that's a mistaken read on things, I apologize, but that's how it damned sure looks to me. "Oh, I didn't have anything better to do and since my uncle bought it and can't use it, sure, what the hell, it'll give me something to do and then I can finally offer some real dirt and opinions on this bloated sack of shit from Microsoft" <<<--- That's how I read it.

Besides, you apparently didn't have to pay for it, right? If so, then the last jab you made there about using it as long as you don't have to pay for it is spot on accurate and I guess you'll be running it for a long long time.

Things are different now, and the sooner people realize this, the sooner they can get to using Vista and dealing with it instead of just mouthing off opinions in the "I just installed it and I can't stand it, but I like some of it" vein.

Have fun, always...
 
I think one of the slowdowns the OP is referring to is due to the power management settings. I used to see it also, mainly the seemingly random slowdowns when playing a video or opening a folder. Change your power management settings. By default (at least on my two systems), Vista turns off a hard disk after 20 minutes. IMHO that is the most annoying thing Vista does by default.
 
bbz_Ghost said:
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1164682 <<<--- Read this and learn something about why things are different now.

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1170936 <<<--- Then read this and learn why you had issues installing something in the Program Files directory.
Click to expand...

I already read those posts well before installing, neither of them have helped me in the least with issues like being unable to import a folder to the Photo Gallery because of permissions or being unable to remove a partition for no particular reason whatsoever. Let me clarify that I can remove every other partition on the system except for the one I actually want to remove, and the one I want to remove is not the system partition.

As far as having problems installing something, I haven't. Everything has installed without a hitch or too much protest. My problems with UAC and permissions come from simple tasks like copying files. I'm running as an administrator and still getting prompts left and right, to the point of rediculousness and irritation. How this is supposed to improve anything is beyond me, all it's done is made me want to turn off UAC, which is something I was hoping I wouldn't have to do. I'll probably attempt to turn it back on once I get everything installed and set up just the way I want it and see how it runs then, but for now it's way too intrusive. It literally turned something that would have taken 5 minutes on XP into a 15 minute ordeal.

As for the slowdowns, the first week or two you'll experience that on a frequent basis, but over time the machine will end up being faster for it.
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I figured as much. While I find it to be annoying, as long as it's actually doing something useful I can deal with it for the meantime.

As for the Control Panel and how it's different, that all comes from the sheer amount of research and face to face interviews Microsoft did with over 100,000 people worldwide when committing to the specific GUI features that people seem(ed) to want compared to the older methods.
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Well, the control panel isn't a huge issue of mine. I've come to expect that with every new version of Windows they will try to change the control panel. As long as they continue to offer easy access to Classic view, it doesn't bother me. I still think the 'improvements' are anything but. There are items in places they shouldn't be, such as "Personalization" being under Hardware and Sound instead of System and Maintenance. The only thing in the personalization panel that's even related to Hardware is the display settings option, I guess changing sounds is related as well, but thats still only 2 our of 7 selections, and not intuitive to me. These things are always going to be up to personal preference -- there's no way they can please everyone. My issues have more to do with things like hiding the menu in Explorer. At the very least they could have had a popup or a little help balloon pop up to say "Looking for the File Edit View ... menu? Press ALT". In the interest of making the operating system easier to use for everyone, they've gone and made it more difficult for anyone who's been using it for 10 years or so.

As for "the shit you don't like," it's obvious with that little review (and the probably short period of time you ran or are continuing to run Vista - anything less than a comment offered by someone with less than say a full month of usage just blows right on by me as babbling) that you're already slanted towards a strong dislike of Vista.
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I've already started with a healthy dose of skepticism, and I'm not going to say otherwise or apologize for it. If you feel that my skepticism somehow invalidates my feelings and criticisms, you can feel free to ignore them and move along to trolling the next vista thread, because I don't recall asking for your approval.

Based on the very first sentence there and the comment "So I decided to give it a real try" I'm led to believe you installed it just to find things to complain about - if that's a mistaken read on things, I apologize, but that's how it damned sure looks to me. "Oh, I didn't have anything better to do and since my uncle bought it and can't use it, sure, what the hell, it'll give me something to do and then I can finally offer some real dirt and opinions on this bloated sack of shit from Microsoft" <<<--- That's how I read it.

Besides, you apparently didn't have to pay for it, right? If so, then the last jab you made there about using it as long as you don't have to pay for it is spot on accurate and I guess you'll be running it for a long long time.
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I installed it because my Windows XP install was starting to get that 2 year unavoidable slowdown syndrome. There's only so much maintaining and defragging that you can do before it becomes faster to just wipe the drive clean and reload a ghost image. Since there was a copy of Vista collecting dust, I decided to give it a try. At best, I'll love it or come to appreciate it and I'll just buy my stepdad another copy when I build him a computer that can actually run it. At worst, by the time he asks me to build him the new computer, I'll have decided I don't like it and reinstall XP. No harm, no foul.

Did I go into it looking for things to hate? No, although I knew beforehand there were things I wouldn't like, such as UAC prompts. I guess it's easier for some to accept things like that, but I've used OS X, I've used *nix, I've had a lot of exposure to the security models that MS aspired to give to Windows users and I can see how they managed to screw it up. That doesn't mean that I went into it hating the whole OS. I was looking for things to like, and I found quite a few things. Most of them were things I've had on XP for a while, some weren't, but having the integration into the OS is nice and cannot be replicated on XP. I am especially happy about the inclusion of software to work with my smartphone. I had so many issues with ActiveSync that being able to plug in my phone and have it just work is almost enough to make me want to put up with things I don't like. Still, for -most- users I think that it's a waste of money to upgrade. At a cost of around $150 for the home premium upgrade, I think it offers very little, especially if you're running XP MCE. Most of the new stuff you can add to XP (desktop search, IE7, WM11) or you can find comparable third-party apps (photo gallery, movie maker, dvd maker, voice recognition, windowblinds + other third party apps) to gain the same functionality. The security model is a step in the right direction but it's current implementation is broken and with a good AV/Anti-Spyware/Firewall suite on XP, viruses and exploits are only a problem if you get all of your software from torrent sites.

Things are different now, and the sooner people realize this, the sooner they can get to using Vista and dealing with it instead of just mouthing off opinions in the "I just installed it and I can't stand it, but I like some of it" vein.

Have fun, always...
Click to expand...

The software has changed, but that doesn't mean people have to like it or just accept it. Things are different, but for what good reason? Is it worth putting up with a broken security model because it's more secure than the previous one? What if you never had issues with security with the previous model? Is it worth putting up with slower overall performance for faster performance with things like searching? Maybe, if you use search a lot. I don't, I've learned over the years to just organize things so they're easy to find. These are questions that power users should be asking themselves and giving serious consideration to before switching.

If you think giving a voice to these concerns means I'm somehow looking for things to not like, just for the sake of hating on Microsoft, then you're mistaken. I was looking forward to Vista for a long time. As I said, there are things that I like. There are things that I don't. I really wish they had just given -more- so at least the things I don't like would be worth putting up with. I wouldn't even be complaining about some of these things if there was more improvement, like WinFS. At least then, I would be able to say "okay, they changed the whole File System. This is a real improvement, and the issues related to it are worth accepting and dealing with". UAC, for _me_, is not an improvement. The new security model doesn't offer me much because I've never had issues with security. I've managed to be just fine with XP's "drive a truck through it" security for years, so when it comes to improving security on Vista, I'm more concerned with how it will interfere with my day to day use than if it actually improved anything.

I'm not trying to be a dick here, but my opinions are just as valid and important as yours, and I'm not going to be told otherwise. If you don't like my opinions, then please feel free to get the fuck out of my thread and go troll somewhere else. The title of the thread made it clear what was contained within. If this somehow bothers you, LEAVE. I would prefer if you weren't a part of it anyway.
 
KENNYB said:
I think one of the slowdowns the OP is referring to is due to the power management settings. I used to see it also, mainly the seemingly random slowdowns when playing a video or opening a folder. Change your power management settings. By default (at least on my two systems), Vista turns off a hard disk after 20 minutes. IMHO that is the most annoying thing Vista does by default.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip. I had already turned the power saving off, however. I've got it pinned down to the indexing service. I added some folders to be indexed and apparently the indexing works really well until it actually has stuff to keep indexed and then it slows to a crawl. Removing them from the 'to be indexed' list solved the problem.
 
zacdl said:
I agree. I have held this opinion forever. People will complain about Vista because they don't have it, can't afford it, or don't want to pay for it. You give them a free copy, and all of a sudden their opinions change.
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My opinions haven't totally changed. I still think the OS isn't something worth paying for at this time. I still think UAC is broken. I still think most of the improvements can be replicated on XP through add ons and third party software. The only thing that has changed is that I actually got to use some of the things I've only been reading about. And I got pleasantly surprised by the way it handled my Smartphone. Beyond that, I still feel the same way.

I know. I have yet to figure out the reluctance of moderation to sticky stuff...
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Um, just a guess, but maybe the reason they haven't stickied either of them is because he spams the links in every Vista thread whether they're relevant or not, therefore making a sticky kind of redundant. Like I said, just a guess.

Everyone has basically explained the rest of Vista... but just a note on the renaming things...
The main reason I could tell you... is user stupidity. Windows isn't design for the IT people. It is designed for stupid users.
That being said, users are so stupid, they got confused with the "My Pictures". If they were looking for someone else's pictures, they got confused. The folder said MY Pictures, not Family Pictures, or Suizie's Pictures.
Pretty retarded they actually had to do that, but I for one like the one-word folder names.
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Yeah, as I said, it's not a huge dealbreaker for me. It's to be expected that with every release of Windows, they're going to change stuff just for the sake of calling it new and improved, even if it doesn't improve anything. It annoys me, and I don't like it, but I'm able to adjust to the new style of doing things. What annoys me more about it is that when I install it on my parent's computer, I will inevitably have to waste a few hours of my time over the next year or so showing them how to do things they used to know how to do on XP. only thing that bothers me is change without any simple or obvious way to switch back to the classic way of doing things.

What would be a dealbreaker is removing the classic way of doing things completely, with no real benefit. Thus far I haven't encountered this so the usability things I will just attempt to adjust to.
 
nigerian_businessman said:
Thanks for the tip. I had already turned the power saving off, however. I've got it pinned down to the indexing service. I added some folders to be indexed and apparently the indexing works really well until it actually has stuff to keep indexed and then it slows to a crawl. Removing them from the 'to be indexed' list solved the problem.
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What type of files did it choke on? I ask only because sometimes it doesn't find something that i know exists and i've searched with the "Everywhere" option and it still fails. Newer == better my ass...lol.
 
I don't have much time to parse through all your issues, but I will say a good 30-40% of them are legit and most are just things you'll have to try and get used to; it really ain't so bad learning new routines, it breaks up he monotony...

I will comment on the Rocketdock complaint, as I too use and Donate to that great endeavor..

I've had and used RocektDock on Vista ult. x64, on my admin and limit user account, for a long while. I've changed icons, configurations, add items, etc. As long as you follow the threads bbz_ghost has linked you to, you can install software apps to run as admin and never worry about UAC (as much as you speak of) again. I currently have 40+ icon packages available to customize Rocektdock, and 12 or so are of my own design..I never have to give permission to change any of the icons.
 
I find the usability of Vista terrible in comparison to XP. People buy this OS for the continuity, when 99&#37; of the UI content is the same I wonder why they messed around with it? The copy/replace dialogue is a work of evil genius from the world of Dilbert.

Anyway I find it slow too, and I got 4.2 on the chart. It means I'm going to have to upgrade from 1GB to 2GB to run *only a measly* office environment, which is costly as I have to change my heatsink. On XP this ran like a flash.

So what's the only positive thing from Vista that I get for the expense of &#163;300?


A faster volume bar.
 
dot_Zen said:
Familiarize yourself with the Security and user/group permissions.
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Well, I've been trying to do that, and I'm not having much luck. When I make changes its as though they have no effect whatsoever. I'm just turning them off, because I don't need them anyway.
 
I zip/unzip a ton of archives- and have never once gotten any prompts in doing so...
 
Where are you unzipping them to? Specifically, are you saying that you can unzip archives into a folder like \Program Files\Rocketdock\Icons\ with no prompts whatsoever? If so, are you running as an admin, standard user, or with UAC turned off? What about your setup is different from mine?
 
nigerian_businessman said:
Where are you unzipping them to? Specifically, are you saying that you can unzip archives into a folder like \Program Files\Rocketdock\Icons\ with no prompts whatsoever?
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I've never tried unzipping something to Program Files. But being that is where PROGRAMS go, and not your customized icons, it doesn't surprise me.
Nonetheless, you might try taking ownership and it may not do it again to that folder.

But I have never had a problem with UAC.

are you running as an admin, standard user
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I still don't think you know how Vista handles things- and that comment just proved it.
Admin and Standard User are the SAME THINGS. Same level of permission. Microsoft just branded one as "Administrator" so people think they have control over something.
 
zacdl said:
I've never tried unzipping something to Program Files. But being that is where PROGRAMS go, and not your customized icons, it doesn't surprise me.
Nonetheless, you might try taking ownership and it may not do it again to that folder.

But I have never had a problem with UAC.
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Ok, well being that the folder I mentioned is where customized icons go for Rocketdock, and being that the entire point of Rocketdock is to have a visually appearing launcher at the bottom of the screen, I need to put the icons in there to get that end result. I did attempt to take ownership, until I noted that the owner was the administrators group, and that my user is configured as an administrator, so taking ownership seemed kind of redundant.
I still don't think you know how Vista handles things- and that comment just proved it.
Admin and Standard User are the SAME THINGS. Same level of permission. Microsoft just branded one as "Administrator" so people think they have control over something.
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Nowhere did I state I knew how Vista handles things, and frankly if it ignores convention that much I don't care to. I just want it to work, and I don't want to have to jump through hoops to make it happen. Therefore, turning off UAC is my solution.

I don't care to be a Vista power user since 90% of what I do can and is done in Linux. The fact that file and folder permissions are this confusing isn't some virtue of the OS. Telling me that a folder is a system or hidden folder and giving me no way to change the attributes isn't a good thing. Apparently Linux is supposed to be so difficult, but I guarantee you if I sat my mom down in front of two computers with the same problem, one with Vista and one with Ubuntu, she would figure out the solution on Ubuntu faster because changing permissions works in nearly the same way inside of nautilus, with the only difference being it actually works instead of just pretending to do something and then presenting you with the same problem when you think you've fixed it.

Microsoft making Administrators and Standard users the SAME THING just adds to the confusion and makes the situation worse. I don't know how you can look at something like that and come to any different conclusion.
 
I suggest you read bzz's posts about Vista then. No use restating what has been said so many times.
 
Bzz's permissions thread post was so incoherent and unstructured I don't blame him.

I still fail to understand microsoft networking. How do you make a user account only for shared folders not the local machine? This should be easy as pie.
 
Vista is taking the heat for sure, and my recently downloaded Vista Ultimate Extra "DreamScene" proves it:





My experience with Vista:

1. Boots fast

2. Runs fast

3. Huge up-time

4. Fantastic shell

My main early-adoption issue has been with iTunes, which does very strange things to my CD/DVD drives (makes them disappear, actually)!

My Vista advice: Bring serious hardware and avoid iTunes...
 
^^^en fuego

funny how sony's shitty sonicstage software was vista ready before itunes was. makes me sad that i still have to use it too. i would soooo rather use wmp11.
 
hugo said:
Bzz's permissions thread post was so incoherent and unstructured I don't blame him.
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Thats funny... I understood every bit of it.

I still fail to understand microsoft networking. How do you make a user account only for shared folders not the local machine? This should be easy as pie.
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MS Networking is a heck of a lot easier than other alternatives out there.
Its called a DOMAIN environment. You just expect MS to throw all functionality of a server into all their workstation products??? Not only would they never make money on their server OS, someone would eventually start griping that it comes with too much stuff.

markt435 said:
funny how sony's shitty sonicstage software was vista ready before itunes was
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With Symantec's findings a while back (Apple taking forever to fix anything... 66 days) it isn't surprising. They are as bad as Dell. Vista has been availible a couple years- and they still have yet to fix problems?
 
Since you, and I suppose hugo, seem to be having a hard time with this I decided I'd do the research for you and lay everything out in a nice graphical context.

nigerian_businessman said:
[Snip..]

However, I'm still of the mindset that this OS really doesn't offer much as far as an 'upgrade' goes. Heres why:
  • File & Disk Permissions hell. I have a lot of disks and partitions, and the new security measures consistantly stand in my way of doing simple tasks with no clear workaround.
There is a reason for this, and for the most part it _does_have to do with Security measures. Could it have been implemented another way? I really don't know the answer to that question but, if you have a well thought-out proposal, we'd love to hear it. For now, this makes an Admin/Network Admin's job a little nicer to manage, especially one who deals with employees constantly writing to folders they shouldn't be or having to set privileges per user account. I'll get into all that in a moment.
  • [Snip..] F:\My Pictures into the Windows Photo Gallery. I was confronted with an error stating that the folder, or its parent, were set as either a system folder or hidden and that the operation couldn't be completed. I searched through the properties to find out how to change the flags (an incredibly simple thing to do on linux, but thats another story) with no luck whatsoever. I attempted to change ownership of the whole drive from the Admin group to myself.[Snip..] I guess I will have to once again switch over to Linux to actually do something I want to do with my computer.
Please, stop trying to treat a DOS/NT based OS like a *Nix system. It will get you know where fast, almost as quickly as trying to treat a *Nix system like a DOS/NT OS. They don't work.there's a reason all the !!!!!'s get their collar in a ruffle every time the two OS's are spoken of in the same sentence. Each do what they do, well, but differently. Again, I will get to your issue with the folder Import but, let me tell you one of my many hobbies/Job title. I am a photographer, among other things, and have nearly .5 terrabyte of photo's on two different disks; with more being imported everyday. In the beginning, I did run into the same issues as you, but then I took a moment and --linux !!!!!!'s, you'll love this-- RTFM.
  • Random unexplainable slowdowns - [Snip..]
Indexing. You solved it, but still don't understand it. I'll try to touch on it.
  • Usability improvements - I said not all of them. But most of them I could do without. Renaming stuff for the sake of change does very little in terms of actually increasing productivity. In fact, considering Windows is pretty standard, it really only makes people familiar with it (pretty much everyone) scratch their heads and go WTF?[Snip..Addressed]
bbz_ghost stated the reason for some of the changes, but you seem reluctant to heed any of his advice, even dismissing information he took the time to share with all new Vista Users as 'uninformative' when the case is quite opposite . I may not be as apt as bbz_ghost on the inner most workings of many --or even one-- OS, but I pay my dues, bide my time, RTFM, and explore on my own; It all pays off in the end, either way.FYI, MS employed the services of 100k+ Average users with regards to their User-centered design, I know of no other company who has done such a thing, with such a critical design principle, that wasn't considered a beta; which by the way 5 million ppl tested and the majority enjoyed the much needed changes. Not everyone will agree, I'm glad you recognize and respect that.
  • UAC Prompts - I don't care what anyone says about "increasing security". This is god damn rediculous. Downloading and extracting a zip file full of png icons for rocketdock into the \Program Files\Rocketdock\icons\ folder took nothing short of 4 approvals for ONE zip file. I had to do this over and over and over again to get my dock icons installed. Never was I presented with any simple way to turn the notifications off or give permission to do the same type of task for a short while. Turning off UAC for 15 minutes so I could actually get some fucking work done isn't an option either, since that requires a reboot. So, once I reboot, UAC is going off. I'll take my chances, kthxbye.
This one paragraph, describes to me --somewhat-- what type of person you are. You allow your emotions to become to emotionally involved with a mechanical/digital/inanimate device. Is UAC perfect? No, but as a great historical leader once said, "[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Democracy is the worst form of government, with the exception of all others.". There's really no need to start spewing hyperbole, especially when you do not fully understand, when you can't get something to work the way you want; it doesn't help you or anyone. If we can move past this, I think you will see how to address the issues at hand. The same goes for the statement below this.


[/FONT] Since I must be some kind of masochist, I will probably keep it installed and just figure out ways to disable and remove most of the shit I don't like, since I'm sure there's some way around most of this crap. My rating? Nice OS if you don't have to pay for it. Otherwise, avoid.
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Now let me address some of the other posts before I get to the meat and potatoes of my post. Just so you know, I didn't reply just to 'critique' your opinions, I'm here to help to the best of my ability...

ryan_975 said:
The one thing I DO miss about explorer is the dynamic tasks pane. Used to be able to go into "My Music" open the folder for the album I wanted to listen to and click "Play All" and be done with it. Now I have to go in and hunt down my playlist inside the folder and double click it. I understand that they want to push the concept of doing all this from within the media player or whatever, but it's just annoying to me.
Click to expand...

ryan, were you ever able to preview music, video and pictures right in the explorer with XP? No, didn't think so. Some things may have been discontinued in favor of others, Preview is a keeper for me and many others I'm sure.



nigerian_businessman said:
[Snip..] It literally turned something that would have taken 5 minutes on XP into a 15 minute ordeal.

[Snip..]In the interest of making the operating system easier to use for everyone, they've gone and made it more difficult for anyone who's been using it for 10 years or so.



I've already started with a healthy dose of skepticism, and I'm not going to say otherwise or apologize for it. If you feel that my skepticism somehow invalidates my feelings and criticisms, you can feel free to ignore them and move along to trolling the next vista thread, because I don't recall asking for your approval.

Seriously, was this necessary? did you not come here for help? I so, you just pissed int he face of one of your biggest allies. His observation, much like my own, is that helping you troubleshoot any of this will become a pain in the ass, since you've already placed your "limited" judgment on the subject matter we're trying to troubleshoot.

[Snip..]What if you never had issues with security with the previous model? Is it worth putting up with slower overall performance for faster performance with things like searching? Maybe, if you use search a lot. I don't, I've learned over the years to just organize things so they're easy to find. These are questions that power users should be asking themselves and giving serious consideration to before switching.

I want you to just take a second, and read the above paragraph and then then following, first, sentence. Do you notice anything, odd? Contradictory? Out of place? You want us to believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but in nearly the same breath, you don't feel that the majority of users who wanted change should have that right? That, the changes we asked for and requested, albeit ever so small, was not acceptable by your standards? This is why I say, what I did, about emotional attachment/aggravation to non-animated objects. It just clouds the Cerebral Cortex.

I'm not trying to be a dick here, but my opinions are just as valid and important as yours, and I'm not going to be told otherwise. If you don't like my opinions, then please feel free to get the fuck out of my thread and go troll somewhere else. The title of the thread made it clear what was contained within. If this somehow bothers you, LEAVE. I would prefer if you weren't a part of it anyway.

Again, necessary? All this time you spent trying to defend yourself (when it was unnecessary), in a verbal and demeaning way could have been better spent researching the things I'm about to show you. Seriously, every second of it could have gotten you that much closer to solving your own problems.
Click to expand...

nigerian_businessman said:
Thanks for the tip. I had already turned the power saving off, however. I've got it pinned down to the indexing service. I added some folders to be indexed and apparently the indexing works really well until it actually has stuff to keep indexed and then it slows to a crawl. Removing them from the 'to be indexed' list solved the problem.
Click to expand...

Over time, this will improve. Indexing is partially, now, related to the Superfetch and pagefile schema. As bbz and many other have stated time and time again, after the first few weeks your machine will begin to develop patterns of how you use it and allocate indexing that's necessary to the way you use your OS.

nigerian_businessman said:
[Snip..unnecessary, again]

Yeah, as I said, it's not a huge dealbreaker for me. It's to be expected that with every release of Windows, they're going to change stuff just for the sake of calling it new and improved, even if it doesn't improve anything. It annoys me, and I don't like it, but I'm able to adjust to the new style of doing things. What annoys me more about it is that when I install it on my parent's computer, I will inevitably have to waste a few hours of my time over the next year or so showing them how to do things they used to know how to do on XP. only thing that bothers me is change without any simple or obvious way to switch back to the classic way of doing things.

Trust me, you really won't. I have my some extended family members on a home premium box I bought them for Christmas. There are 5 users for that machine, one being myself as the admin. They are only now understanding the importance of running virus scans. They are _the_Avg home user. And, amazingly enough, my greatest asset to user-centered design for my own business. Once you do an install and set up, the proper way, the way an admin should, then you'll have no issues at all. They'll be free, albeit limited to your discretion, to do what they want and explore as their hearts desire and you'll likely never have to troubleshoot user_error (unless they just spill CoolWhip all over the box); ya' know, since their isn't any cost/production time lost on a home_users machine.
Click to expand...


These next few quotes are related to some of the stuff I'm about to show you, so I'd like to address them as a group.
  1. nigerian_businessman said:
    You never had anything pop up while copying or unzipping files to the icons folder? How did you swing that?
    Click to expand...
  2. nigerian_businessman said:
    Where are you unzipping them to? Specifically, are you saying that you can unzip archives into a folder like \Program Files\Rocketdock\Icons\ with no prompts whatsoever? If so, are you running as an admin, standard user, or with UAC turned off? What about your setup is different from mine?
    Click to expand...
  3. zacdl said:
    I've never tried unzipping something to Program Files. But being that is where PROGRAMS go, and not your customized icons, it doesn't surprise me.
    Nonetheless, you might try taking ownership and it may not do it again to that folder.
    Click to expand...
  4. nigerian_businessman said:
    Ok, well being that the folder I mentioned is where customized icons go for Rocketdock, and being that the entire point of Rocketdock is to have a visually appearing launcher at the bottom of the screen, I need to put the icons in there to get that end result. I did attempt to take ownership, until I noted that the owner was the administrators group, and that my user is configured as an administrator, so taking ownership seemed kind of redundant.
    [Snip..]
    Click to expand...
I now know your biggest problem with, folders/partitions/files, photogallery and Rocektdock. Programs should NOT be written to allow common task to be writeable to the program folder. Period. You DO NOT need to "install" icons to the Rocketdock Program folder. Period.

You think moving to a new file system would have been the 'saving grace' for Vista, and from what I just read I know that you wouldn't have just been one frustrated puppy, you would have been a flaming mess. The newer file system is, and will be, much more strict then NTFS ever dreamed of being. And the biggest issue with this is getting developers to follow suit. What you fail to realize is that 20&#37;(could be more) of the software companies developing software, aren't doing it with the best interest of the user and anothoer good percentage DO NOT write efficient and secure code(ergo: Secuity patches, etc. Even MS's on software dept.'s are guilty of this.). Therefore, if Microsoft couldn't give the public a newer file system, they would try to require stricter security privileges for control over program folders and drives; thus, reducing unwanted burden of insecurity and virus 'hay-days' on the user. The answer to the problems are simple, and Microsoft has documented them well (to a point). Again, this is not the PERFECT way to deal with security, but for now it's better than the past.
Click to expand...
Now to the meat.....

Get to know this fellow right here..
securityshelltabwn0.jpg

​


Now then, you'll notice a few things. For one, this is a subset of User 'Interface': Access Control Within this Interface, you'll notice 'Object Types/Names as well as Group and User names; followed by the permissions granted for the SYSTEM. It is from the panel, that you will have control over functionality of security feature. Heretofore disregard the 'old' way of file and folder security --it was dated and sorely in need of an overhaul. If you want more information regarding this sub menu, click the "Learn about...." link, in your own window, on your machine, to being up the help section.

For now, I'll direct you to --and reference here-- an "Unofficial Windows Vista blog article" which will explain the built in Object Types/names.

Below are some of the security groups of Windows Vista:
  • Administrators - is the ultimate security group in Windows Vista which has the power to create user accounts, delete account, install software updates, change device settings and almost every aspect in managing Windows Vista from a user perspective.
  • Users - they have access to their own folders, files, password account, and are capable of running and installing programs sans administrative rights.
  • Backup Operators - have the power to access the backup program for back up and restore files and folders regardless of permissions.
  • Guests - access to their own files and folders but doesn&#8217;t have the option to change account password.
  • Performance Log Users - ability to use Windows Performance Diagnostic Console snap-in for monitoring performance counters, logs, and alerts, both locally and remotely.
  • Performance Monitor Users - ability to use the Windows Performance Diagnostic Console snap-in for monitoring performance counters only, both locally and remotely.
  • Power Users - have a some of the Administrator group privileges except the following: back up or restore files, replace system files, take ownership of files, or install or remove device drivers, install applications that explicitly require Administrators group membership.
Click to expand...
As you can see, each Object Type/Name consists of different types of users and their tasks. This is more geared for the sys admin, but should be useful for anyone with future installs.

What you really need to know, is that you may edit and customize each of these groups/users as you see fit. And that brings us to the Permissions menu.

For the folders you're running into trouble, you'll want to ensure that you have set the correct controls and access privileges; namely 'Full Control', 'Modify', 'Read&Execute', 'Write'.

For more information, here are a few reference links:

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/network/evaluate/vista_fp.mspx
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/windowsvista/security/security_group_policy_settings.mspx
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/windowsvista/security/specialized_security.mspx
http://technet2.microsoft.com/Windo...cd74-410c-b26d-885ce6385c731033.mspx?mfr=true


And just for your issues with Startmenu, here's how to tweak it for your 'mediocre' performance.

http://www.lockergnome.com/nexus/kn...-to-speed-up-windows-vista-start-menu-search/


Now, with regards to Rocektodock, my suggestion is to create a folder called..wait for it.."Icons.. in a User folder area, like Document or downloads, etc. And, within the Rocketdock Icon settings menu, you'll see a '+' and '-' button on the left-handside, under the built in folder explorer. Click the '+' and add the newly created "Icon" folder, problem solved.


So, to summarize:

You should now be able to customize performance in the StartMenu
You should be able to set permission levels with your partitions, photo HDD, and any files you're interested in. And Access them on a whim.
You should have a little bit more understanding of the security features, what they do and why they were implemented the way they were.
And hopefully, in the future you'll disregard emotion when it comes to PC-related environments.

Hope some of what I offered helped.
 
dot_zen, you mis understood me. I wasn't talking about previewing anything. I was talking about simple list of tasks that were diferent based on what folder you were in (or more so what desktop.ini had in it). And you misunderstood me to think it was something I hated, it's not. Just something I missed from XP. I love using Vista and don't have any plans to go back to XP. Almost everything I do works like it shoudl. The thing that don't, I will either find a way to make it work, or I will find something else that does work.
 
My apologies. Thanks for clearing that up for me, guess I got a little carried away there. ;)

Guess I should heed my own advice. ::cool:
 
dot_Zen said:
My apologies. Thanks for clearing that up for me, guess I got a little carried away there. ;)

Guess I should heed my own advice. ::cool:
Click to expand...

hmmmmm.sounds familiar this "getting Carried away".LOL

i Guess we'll cut you some slack since you are a Noob Here.LOL

But you do need to Chill Bro..we are all just trying to have a good time here thats all :)
 
pairdice said:
i Guess we'll cut you some slack since you are a Noob Here.LOL
But you do need to Chill Bro..we are all just trying to have a good time here thats all :)
Click to expand...

He's been around longer than you have :rolleyes:
 
And here I was thinking I was the only one that did the "MegaPost" thing anymore...

dot_zen: Nice piece of work there. Somehow I don't think it'll matter in the long run, but kudos on the effort. I go outta my way more often than not to make sure people get more info than they'd ever care for like that (it's not a negative, I assure you). Good job...

But red text? Man I had to highlight that stuff just to be able to read it... hehe
 
First off, I'd like to say thank you to those of you who have been attempting to help. Even you bbz, even though sometimes you annoy me to no end. In some ways, I understand how my frustrations might give the impression that I'm just looking for things to bitch about. Really, that's why I made this thread -- so I could voice my frustrations, as opposed to letting them fly in the form of a swift kick to the side of my computer case.

Switching to anything new is always a somewhat frustrating experience. I guess what's most frustrating about Vista isn't so much what it's trying to do as much as how it tries and fails. A lot of that, as was mentioned by someone else, has to do with the way developers write apps for Windows. This I understand.

When I mentioned that WinFS would have made this worthwhile, I meant it. WinFS would have made putting up with this stuff worth the effort because of all the issues it would have eventually fixed. As I see it now, UAC is a half-assed effort that fails on many fronts. I mean, kudos to MS for at least trying, but seriously they bungled it and I hope to god they come out with a patch to make it less intrusive for people like myself who don't want to be constrained and told "no" when I know damn well that I'm doing what I want.

I guess thats one of the things that I see as an advantage to Linux that others might see as a disadvantage. Linux will let you completely hose your system without hardly a hint of protest as long as you give yourself root credentials. So if I want to, for instance, delete a partition that Vista for whatever screwed up reason marked as the active system partition and installed the bootloader to, even though it's actually a 10gb Windows XP partition that I started the Vista install from, Linux will just stand back and allow me to do so and completely screw up the bootloader, which is what I ended up doing. And I was okay with that, because I knew how to reinstate the bootloader, but Vista would not allow me to do what I wanted no matter what. It had nothing to do with permissions, because I tried all of that. It had to do with Vista thinking it knew what was best for me, when it didn't. And that's where I start to have issues with this whole UAC and permissions business. It's fine if I ultimately can tell it, by elevating my permissions to a certain level, to get the fuck out of my way and let me do what I want to do and to hell with the consequences. But it doesn't work like that, and that is a huge failing and something that I do not know if I will be able to live with.

I will try, certainly, because despite how much I love using Linux over Windows, there are certain things that I simply cannot do in Linux yet. There is no such thing as a viable alternative to Cubase on Linux. There is no real replacement for Adobe Illustrator. Linux gaming is a joke. And no matter what, XP isn't going to last forever. I very well may end up uninstalling VIsta and switching back to XP. One of Vista's saving graces is that very little of what I do on a day to day basis needs to be done in Windows, and things like that partition problem I can work around with a LiveCD. So I might just put up with it on a limited basis for the sake of not being a luddite. But there will be times when I kick and scream about it, because I just think it's very disappointing that out of all the things Vista aspired to, this is ultimately what we ended up with. They promised us Filet Mignon and gave us In-n-Out burger.

My final comment is to you, dot_Zen. I want you to know that I do appreciate the help, however, it's unnecessary to tell me to RTFM. I already searched high and low for solutions to my problems. The stuff you linked was largely irrelevant to any of the problems I was encountering. I already had ownership and changed the permissions on the folder, as I said. I still encountered the prompts. I know I could have made a folder in \users\whatever\icons for rocketdock icons, and that would have saved me some hassle. The point is, I shouldn't have to deal with that limitation. It's my computer. If I want to put the icons in the program folder, so for instance, they show up under my wife's account as well, I should be able to do that and not be hassled about it. There is no "oh it's for your own good" nonsense that's going to change how I feel about it. I think it's a load of shit, and I can't understand why you don't feel the same way. I guess some people just like to bend over and take it.
 
zacdl said:
Thats funny... I understood every bit of it.
Click to expand...
Hello zacdl. I'm not saying I didn't understand it, I'm saying it was badly written.

zacdl said:
MS Networking is a heck of a lot easier than other alternatives out there.
Its called a DOMAIN environment. You just expect MS to throw all functionality of a server into all their workstation products??? Not only would they never make money on their server OS, someone would eventually start griping that it comes with too much stuff.
Click to expand...
But I don't want a server. All I want is to be able to share a folder over my network, but Vista can't do that for me. On one network at college I can't see XP machines who can see me, on the network at home I can see the other machines but they cannot connect to any of my folders.

dot_Zen, research won't solve my user-centred problems. Apart from the very numerous annoyances of Vista the worst is still the speed. On this "4.2" rated machine it is still unbelievably slow, weeks after I installed it.
 
It seems to me that entirely too many people come to this whole computer operating system thing with the "God fuckin' dammit it's my computer and I should be able to do whatever I want with it and fuck the consequences."

That's not a good attitude to have irrespective of the operating system in use, it's just not a good attitude at all.

I understand that some people love Linux distros, or UNIX, or some *nix derivatives that exist, but they're not Windows. Windows has always been different and we all know - at least we all should know - this going in, so whenever someone makes that dreaded "I should be able to..." comment I just kinda turn my head or click off and move on to more pressing or relevant stuff. Sorry, but that's just how it goes.

If you want that much control over your OS, go run a *nix derivative of some Linux distro - please note here that I said your OS and not an OS because Windows doesn't belong to you, or me, or whoever the hell decides to run it. Might be arguing semantics, whatever, it really doesn't matter - it doesn't belong to you, it doesn't belong to me, and because of that aspect it'll never be as customizable as the other OSes can, are, and probably always will be.

I'm trying to do my very best to resist the urge to express a statement that many people use in such situations:

"No one is forcing you to run Windows. If you don't like it, don't run it..."

Crap, I ended up stating it anyway... oh well. My point is that I don't like offering up the same continually spouted off ideas or sentiments of the "oral majority" as is so often the case. I look at things differently than most people do, I see angles where everyone else sees blank walls, the whole picture at once, etc.

There's nothing wrong with Vista that a little elbow grease can't fix. If you (meaning the person reading this) comes from a background of *nix and command line configuration stuff (Terminal, bash, shells, scripting, etc) then getting Vista working the way you probably want it to work is entirely within the realm of possibility for you (meaning the person reading this).

That's one of the biggest flaws with the recent Vista "30 days" article as compared to the Linux "30 days" one last month. The author/reviewer didn't blink twice when it came down to doing all the stuff necessary to get Linux working the way he wanted it to work during his 30 days with it.

Why did he not expend the same effort - as noted by his own words many times where he simply wanted to flat out give up and start over, "nearly in tears" as he stated - towards the Vista article/review? I wonder...

A simple fact: Linux distros do not work the way the user wants them to work out of the box clean; that is one of the biggest myths perpetrated by the Linux diehards - and I'm not wrong and I'm not interested in turning this thread into a Linux or Vista bashing contest.

It's true: Linux distros require elbow grease to get them to a point of functionality that gets anywhere near Windows (any version) straight outta the box, so to speak. I'm not going into the extreme details here with respects to video drivers under Linux after an install, video playback, MP3 playback, etc. - all this stuff is well known to anyone that's installed a Linux distro in the past 5 years or so and spent time doing the obligatory forum searches, documentation reading, Google searches, etc etc.

So for me it comes down to this all important question:

Why would anyone spend so much time getting a Linux distro up and running to their specifications and needs - not an easy task by any measure of the word, and a definite consumer of some time even for experienced Linux users - and then seem to think that getting a Windows box up to a similar state should be any easier?

That just doesn't make any sense to me... Does it make sense to any of you?

I know people have issues with Vista - hell, I've encountered every single one I've seen reported so far across 40 different forums I keep up with and I offer answers on how to resolve them whenever possible - except those related to Nvidia cards as I own an ATI and have no such problems. :p

Like many others, I'm here to help, so as long as people understand that, great. But don't call me a troll - that's about as low as you can get. Insult my Mom or something, call me "fatty" because I'm 6'6" and weigh 380 lbs, call me a bunch of things if you want, but troll? Man... that's just fuckin' low.

Almost as low as making the assumption that those of us running Windows "bend over and take it" but not quite.

Good luck with Vista, however you choose to use it.
 
bbz_Ghost....can you still make my XP pro run better in 20 Minutes or so?
thanks
 
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