New York Plans Surveillance Veil for Downtown

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Are you ready for this? New York City has plans to blanket the Lower Manhattan area with over 3000 security cameras (that can read license plates), a center staffed by police, private security officers and movable roadblocks.

The Lower Manhattan Security Initiative, as the plan is called, will resemble London’s so-called Ring of Steel, an extensive web of cameras and roadblocks designed to detect, track and deter terrorists. British officials said images captured by the cameras helped track suspects after the London subway bombings in 2005 and the car bomb plots last month.
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Hooray for losing our freedom! You know what they say though. Anyone willing to give up their freedom doesnt deserve freedom. Looks like its time to scope out a new country.
 
Cool! I always wanted to be surrounded by these posters.

watchful_eyes.jpg
 
Jakalwarrior said:
Hooray for losing our freedom! You know what they say though. Anyone willing to give up their freedom doesnt deserve freedom. Looks like its time to scope out a new country.
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What freedom did you lose exactly?
 
None -- Yet.

But the potential for misuse of such a system is definetly there.

Is it worth it, though?
 
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
 
Just thinking out loud Kyle, but did you ever ponder HOW BigBrother got implemented?

They didn't toss a camera in everything in sight over night, right?

Intead, camera's "everywhere" happened over time, for no doubt a number of perfectly reasonable and inocuous reasons.

Then on April 9th, 1997 Skynet became self-aware .... :eek: :rolleyes: :p

Im gonna start selling Tshirts...." Fuck You Oinker's" on both sides. :D
 
Is this any different than Microsoft watching you from this thread?
The only people who worry about this type of thing, are those with something to hide.
 
VectorZ said:
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
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Nice quote, but it doesn't apply here. When you walk down the street, you have no idea how many eyes and cameras are already watching you. Having 3000 cameras is no different that posting 3000 police officers to do the same thing, except that it's a lot cheaper, less conspicuous, and provides a constant watch because a camera never gets bored and nods off, nor does it need a piss break. When you are in a public place, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy, that's proven case law. I welcome this, and only wonder why it took nearly six years after 9/11 to implement something like this.
 
rahavsmt said:
Is this any different than Microsoft watching you from this thread?
The only people who worry about this type of thing, are those with something to hide.
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And those that don't like being taken advantage off and or watched 24/7.
Gee what stores do they shop at. Oh look her nip is showing, let me record that and put it on my FTP server.... Oh look that guy did a burnout, lets go to his house and arrest him.

All in the name of anti-terrorism bullshit. Since we get soooo many terrorist attacks.
Where would this crap save more lives? in messed up neighborhoods full of murderous gangs, drug sales, prostitution etc (where the normal residents would welcome ANY bit of safety).. or against a possible terrorist attack that may happen some time this decade.
 
in the uk there are freaking cameras everywhere. did those cameras stop the muslim terrorists from blowing up those trains? did those cameras stop those other muslim wannabee terrorists from attempting to blow up those cars? all a camera will do is document what blows up thats it.
 
This technology can be used to solve a great variety of seemingly "random" crimes. By linking a license plate number with a location and time, and building a huge database containing this information, seemingly random crimes like serial rape or murder can be linked to a particular vehicle plate.

For example, a query of the database would be "what license plate was at location X at or about time X on day X, then also at location Y at time Y on day Y, etc.

The huge list of data filters down to maybe two or three who just "happened" to be near all three scenes at the time the crime occured. The more random/frequent the crime, the easier to spot the commonality.

I suggested a version of this to the FBI back when the sniper was shooting people at gas stations up north. Cell phone use ultimately caught that guy. A similar tactic can be used by keeping record of what towers your cell phone hits, and when they are hit. I have no doubt this data is already being collected today, though I doubt local law enforcement has access to it.

I realize that this method can be defeated by taking a cab, or else changing vehicles/plates- but there are surely a great many cases where the perp does not bother (eg. the sniper case)
 
JethroXP said:
Nice quote, but it doesn't apply here. When you walk down the street, you have no idea how many eyes and cameras are already watching you. Having 3000 cameras is no different that posting 3000 police officers to do the same thing, except that it's a lot cheaper, less conspicuous, and provides a constant watch because a camera never gets bored and nods off, nor does it need a piss break. When you are in a public place, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy, that's proven case law. I welcome this, and only wonder why it took nearly six years after 9/11 to implement something like this.
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QFT Jethro. You have no expectation of privacy on a city street.

Giuliani has been after this for years, and although I do not agree with all of his politics, I certainly have no issue with cameras on the corner if it could potentially make me safer.
 
The "if it could make me safe" thing is exactly what they count on for the people to see such things and then simply turn a deaf dumb blind stupid dumbass eye and ear to. Sad, really.

Just another freedom being taken away without any legislation, or anyone really being held accountable for it.

www.zeitgeistmovie.com

If you haven't seen it, maybe you should. This "safety" thing is just the beginning, folks, and it's just going to get worse.

And worse.

And worse.

Even that "island of my own" idea is quaint now. :(
 
Jakalwarrior said:
All in the name of anti-terrorism bullshit. Since we get soooo many terrorist attacks.
Where would this crap save more lives? in messed up neighborhoods full of murderous gangs, drug sales, prostitution etc (where the normal residents would welcome ANY bit of safety).. or against a possible terrorist attack that may happen some time this decade.
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Act like we don't have enough attacks and go light on a enemy that hides itself among citizens....? Nobody including the government gives one shit about a bimbo walking down the street talking to their STD laden boyfriend. If they gave a shit, they would have put up cameras to watch you at the street level years before that. Hell, I bet you are the type that even puts more personal information on their myspace or facebook than the government can collect from you while watching you walk down the street and into a shop. hah-hah-hah.. :rolleyes:

Anyhow, its a good move that does no harm to anyone except people with the tinfoil hats on their head. ;)
 
bbz_Ghost said:
The "if it could make me safe" thing is exactly what they count on for the people to see such things and then simply turn a deaf dumb blind stupid dumbass eye and ear to. Sad, really.
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I disagree. I find it sad that people would live their lives under a tinfoil hat 1984 type conspiracy when this type of move has zero effect on their day to day life.

If cameras upset you so much, then how do you walk down public streets? Aren't you in fear of your every move being watched?

If there was another terrorist attack in this country tomorrow then there would be massive public outcry for a better system and better protection, but then again I'm just a deaf dumb blind stupid dumbass, so what do i know anyways. ;)
 
Exaclty how is this supposed to stop terrorist? Terrorists don't usually stick out like a thumb until they actually do something. But by then it's too late and they're most likely dead. So, why spend money on this when it's useless for what they're saying it's to be used for?
 
ryan_975 said:
Exaclty how is this supposed to stop terrorist? Terrorists don't usually stick out like a thumb until they actually do something. But by then it's too late and they're most likely dead. So, why spend money on this when it's useless for what they're saying it's to be used for?
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Take the recent bombing attempt in London. Yes the scenario was thankfully avoided, but by sheer luck and an observant Ambulance driver.

You can certainly make an arguement that a system such as this could have detected the situation just as well.

I'm going to take my leave of this thread now, I don't want to be the one solely to blame for getting this Soapbox'd. If you want to talk about it further, feel free to PM. :)
 
ryan_975 said:
Exaclty how is this supposed to stop terrorist? Terrorists don't usually stick out like a thumb until they actually do something. But by then it's too late and they're most likely dead. So, why spend money on this when it's useless for what they're saying it's to be used for?
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heh.. it's exactly the people like you that allow the terrorist breeding grounds to continue. Hell, why do anything.. let them take over our countries. Sadly, most politicians think your way too.

Nice mentality.
 
Rich Tate said:
I disagree. I find it sad that people would live their lives under a tinfoil hat 1984 type conspiracy when this type of move has zero effect on their day to day life.

If cameras upset you so much, then how do you walk down public streets? Aren't you in fear of your every move being watched?

If there was another terrorist attack in this country tomorrow then there would be massive public outcry for a better system and better protection, but then again I'm just a deaf dumb blind stupid dumbass, so what do i know anyways. ;)
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The problem with that line of thinking, Rich, is that there hasn't been a terrorist attack on the US. Like I said, people are just too dumb to understand it, or figure it out. If anyone ever says "Oh, the government will take care of us" that's the beginning of the end for all of us.

No one seems to ever question "What if the government is doing this shit just to herd us into exactly what they want?"

Why is that?

People have been fed lies for so long that when the truth comes along and slaps them across the face as a wakeup call, instead of opening their dumb cow eyes and seeing it for what it is, their first instinct nowadays is "I'll sue."

Idiots.
 
Ghost has been watching too much loose change by 15 year olds.. and Michael Moore films. :p

zzzzzzz
 
And you comment on someone else's line of thinking and don't question your own? Yeah, right, you keep on thinking that.

All I see you saying is "Baaa-aaaa-aaaa-aaaa..."
 
ROFL, the government is a freaking sieve when it comes to leaks. Are you to brainwashed to even see that? Pathetic.
 
And the world was flat once... and JFK was killed with a single bullet... I could go on but but but... go back to grazing, sonny. Let the folks in charge take care of you...
 
Believe what you want, you'll wake up to reality someday. :p

/wrists
 
I thought they might be using airstrip one (UK) to test this out for USA
 
Big Brother is watching you. Trust him; he's only doing it to keep *you* safe.
 
rahavsmt said:
Is this any different than Microsoft watching you from this thread?
The only people who worry about this type of thing, are those with something to hide.
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I think I'm going to camp outside your house (on public property of course, so I'm not trespassing) with high-power binoculars. Don't worry about it, unless of course, you have something to hide.
 
Is what you can see through a window considered private?

My brother set up CCTV at his old house because it was in the ghetto and people were constantly jacking with his stuff. However he made a point of making sure it didn't peer into the front windows across the street. It surveilled his property, the sidewalk and part of the street. It was not hooked into a database with facial recognition software and license plate recognition. It was for private use and notification was posted that the property was surveilled. It actually did reduce (eliminate actually) theft on his property, which wasn't public to begin with.

Perhaps this will reduce petty crimes (hasn't in London), but a terrorist driving one of 40,000 cars through a section of New York and then blowing it up would not be deterred by cameras, nor would he stand out. Sure you'll get to see him blow his ass up, his car, and your loved one shredded by shrapnel on TV but it won't prevent dick. Think about it, when blowing yourself up wouldn't it be better if everyone gets to see it?

Personally I would not like to be followed by a PI during my day to day routine even though it's boring as hell. It's my business. Nor would I wish to be followed by paparazzi with cameras everywhere I go. Believe it or not some people actually like not being tracked even though they're in public, strange as that may seem. That is why we don't have tracking implants. Of course, through the subtleties of gradualism this is something that will deteriorate and eventually be done away with. Thankfully I live in an area where 3000 cameras wouldn't cover 1/8 the population and thus is impractical for now. Can't wait till it becomes practical.
 
Why worry,we're talking about New York City,most of those cameras will be stolen as fast as they put them up!:D
 
w1retap said:
*ahem* Second amendment. ;) :D
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These camera systems should easily be able to determine the piece you are illegally packing down the New York street.

It's exactly this type of power that we hand our authorities, which can quickly and easily negate our second ammendment rights at the flip of a switch.

Of course, you only want to pretend that part of the reality doesn't exist until something happens right?

Granted this logic itself is convuluted and could have prevented many good things from happening, I just tend to personally believe in a smaller government with less power. Let the citizens protect themselves.

Why we rely on reactionary systems to feel safe I have no clue.
 
Surveillance gives the government more power and takes power from the people. Is that really what people in this country want?

Here is a good quote from this article:

Throughout our nation's history, we have maintained a balance between the necessary interests of police and the civil rights of the people. The license plate itself is such a balance. Imagine the debate from the early 1900s: The police proposed affixing a plaque to every car with the car owner's name, so they could better track cars used in crimes. Civil libertarians objected because that would reduce the privacy of every car owner. So a compromise was reached: a random string of letter and numbers that the police could use to determine the car owner. By deliberately designing a more cumbersome system, the needs of law enforcement and the public's right to privacy were balanced.
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Now it doesn't matter - automatic license plate and facial scanning technology. With technology the balance described above tips far into the police/government's favor.

What I want to know is what will be done to balance things out? Hey New York City officials give your residents something in return for this acquisition of power.
 
Schneier is one of the most outspoken critics against this sort of action/activity, and I agree with his viewpoints on most everything. He was one of the first people to publicly rip the "draconian" (and I don't use that word often) tactics the US gubbamint is currently using because of the Patriot Act (talk about stirring the shit) and the RealID program which is still in full swing and being ramped up even as I'm typing this sentence.

For myself, while I'm not a privacy hound in the least, it's these kinds of tactics that slowly and someday will completely erode and the old addage of "I've got nothing to hide" is utter bullshit There used to be a quote, a list of items that were rights and the person that created the list was going down the items in a manner of "I used to do <xxx> but then I stopped caring, so they took away that right" and so on all the way down to the 1st Amendment where he finally says something like "I had so many chances to speak up about the loss of all my other rights, that they finally took away the 1st Amendment and now I can't speak freely at all."

It's just one little thing at a time, and it adds up. Earlier today I was tempted to post the recent decision in San Francisco about being able to snoop without a warrant and forgot to do it. The link is HERE

One right at a time, even the seemingly inconsequential ones, adds up until some point where we simply don't have any.

Why people choose to live in caves the way they do is beyond me. You sit at home in your "privacy" and you think you're safe, that you're unfettered by all this, separate from the rest of the world and the shit happening outside your door.

And you couldn't be further from the truth.

What will it take: the door crashing in as a warrantless search is about to take place? You have nothing to hide, right? But it doesn't matter because your neighbor who got sick of your dog pissing on his lawn or whatnot decided to play a prank on you and put in an anonymous phone call (which wasn't anonymous because of the RFID tag in his skull and they already knew who it was before the phone circuit was even connected).

I wish I could express my sadness at those who simply choose to live in the dark, even at this forum. Your ignorance and carelessness about the most basic rights we have and your misplaced faith in "those in charge" will come back to haunt you, and in the long run, destroy us all.
 
Ockie said:
QFT.



If people want to blame anything, blame the terrorists and the criminals. I'm sure the government has better things to spend their money on rather than 3,000 cameras and an entire fleet of service crew and monitoring staff + equipment.
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this hurts my head.
 
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