Newbie seeks Spyder2 advice (which model to get?)

[JYeager11]

I've been waiting to pull the trigger on either a BenQ FP241WZ or Dell 2407WFP-HC for a few months, and will make my final decision this weekend (I'm leaning towards the WZ if for no other reason than there are *NO* big-site reviews of the Dell 24" HC, which I'm finding increadingly suspect with every passing day).

Whichever one I pick, though, I'll want to calibrate. I'm a first-timer in this area.

Searching for Spyder2 (seems to be the tool of choice on these forums) @ NCIX, I found this :

http://www.ncix.com/search/?q=spyder2&minprice=Min.+Price&maxprice=Max.+Price

Like.. holy crap. That's way too much choice. Which basic ones should I be looking at, and why?

Thanks.

 

[R0achTheWarHero]

From the monitors I have tested it on, the spyder2 is useless on any monitor that doesn't have 3 separate RGB level adjustments. Also I don't remember 100%, but I think the spyder express doesn't allow manual white point adjustment with the RGB levels making that one useless as well.

I have a spyder pro and don't even use it for my 245bw because it makes the low end too dark. I used the spyder to calculate white point then I manually adjusted the RGB levels based on the colormeter then uninstalled it and used samsung magictune to calibrate gamma and it looks perfect.

 

[Viper GTS]

Express does not give any hardware pre-calibration (the RGB adjustment). Express also does not allow for deviation from a 2.2/6500K whitepoint, whereas Pro allows custom whitepoints.

I would disagree about it being useless, while the hardware pre-alibration is certainly very desirable (IMO the Express is useless because it does not include this) the profiling is what gets monitors to really do their best.

The Spyder2Pro is what most people should be getting, particularly those with CRT's.

Alternatively you can go straight for a better product like ColorEyes DisplayPro. The software is quite a bit better than Colorvision's offerings but it's a fair amount more money ($325 with a DTP-94 vs $225 ish street for the Spyder2Pro).

I own both a Spyder2Pro suite and DisplayPro with a DTP-94, if people are interested and I'm bored enough I might be convinced to calibrate with the Spyder2Pro software + sensor, then validate with DisplayPro + the DTP-94.

Viper GTS

 

[applebook]

There's no point in using an expensive device to calibrate a crappy, 6-bit monitor that displays only a few hundred thousand colors anyway

The BenQ is an 8-bit MVA panel, the same as the LG. Both are excellent, but the LG is generally cheaper.

 

[Viper GTS]

There's no point in using an expensive device to calibrate a crappy, 6-bit monitor that displays only a few hundred thousand colors anyway

You'll get far more use out of a colorimeter than just one monitor. In the time I've had my colorimeters I've owned nearly a dozen monitors, not to mention displays owned by friends/family.

Viper GTS

 

[R0achTheWarHero]

There's no point in using an expensive device to calibrate a crappy, 6-bit monitor that displays only a few hundred thousand colors anyway

The BenQ is an 8-bit MVA panel, the same as the LG. Both are excellent, but the LG is generally cheaper.

Yea which shows how much you know considering I owned the LG & 245bw, post calibration they have almost identical color, if anything colors are better on the 245bw because theres no color bleed or blurry picture and text like the VA panels but you just make up some random bs out of hearsay even though you have no experience or knowledge.

Heres what all the random internet noobs do, they go and read a LCD panel guide thats a sticky on some forum thats 4 years old and go spam word for word what they read in the 4year old guide as gospel.

Omg it has an MVA/PVA panel so that means it's 8bit so it must be awesome because I'm an idiot that read a 4year old lcd guide!


IPS = good
Samsung TN = next best thing
VA technology = crap
Non-Samsung TN panel = crap

 

[R0achTheWarHero]

Forgot to mention the spyder2 is also completely useless for VA panels since it makes the lower end too dark. Combine that with the black crush effect inherent to the panel type and the monitor is unusable. Used spyder2pro on a nec 20wmgx2, it has no way to change RGB levels for monitor pre-calibration and the profile it gave me had some retardedly bad red tint to it that was unusable.

Used a spyder2 + Coloreyes calibration program before and that program didn't even work as good as the spyder2, the spyder2pro is perfect for finding a pre-calibration neutral white point, their post calibration gamma levels are the only problem. The coloreyes program was giving me white points that were obviously far off from neutral.

If you want the best color then an IPS with RGB sliders would probably be best and a spyder2pro would most likely work good since theres no black crush effect.

 

[SJetski71]

Forgot to mention the spyder2 is also completely useless for VA panels since it makes the lower end too dark. Combine that with the black crush effect inherent to the panel type and the monitor is unusable.

The good thing about spyder2 colorimeters is that it's compatible with after-market calibration software (research it here), including some free software such as ColorHCFR. ColorHCFR for example offers many more features than the stock spyder2express software. Might be a steep learning curve for noobs though. In case anyone didn't see it in the other thread, here's the spyder2express for $47 + S//H.

OP i probably wouldn't recommend you go that route, i mostly posted this info for those who know how to calibrate with more advanced software, and i've only recently learned of the spyder2express's software limitations. I've heard much good about the Pantone Display 2 LT if you want to research that instead.

good luck either way

 

[JYeager11]

Forgot to mention the spyder2 is also completely useless for VA panels since it ...

Guys, come on. Work with me here. I went out of my way to name the 2 monitors I'm considering purchasing. I have no idea what panels they use, just tell me what to get for these specific monitors. All this "if it's A, get B, unless it's got C and D, in which case you need E, F and G" stuff is just going to turn me off to calibration altogether.

BenQ FP241WZ / Dell 2407WFP-HC

Those are the monitors.

Here are the gazillion Spyder2 versions offered by NCIX here in Canada :
http://www.ncix.com/search/?q=spyder2&minprice=Min.+Price&maxprice=Max.+Price

Again, I ask.. which version is a good deal in this situation, if any? (It's quite possible that your advice may be not to bother with any of them.)

 

[applebook]

I just use software calibration, which works for me.

Both the BenQ and the Dell are fine monitors.

The BenQ uses an LG.Philips MVA panel, and the Dell uses a Samsung PVA panel, both of which are fine, especially for the price.

One type of panel that you should absolutely stay away from if you want color accuracy and viewable angles is TN. The Samsung 245B has a pathetic 6-bit color pallet, producing only a few hundred thousand colors (16.2 million with dithering, which looks mediocre), while the PVA and MVA panels discussed use 8-bit, 16.7 million color technology that is noticeably superior to 6-bit junk like the 245B

 

[JYeager11]

I just use software calibration, which works for me.

Both the BenQ and the Dell are fine monitors.

The BenQ uses an LG.Philips MVA panel, and the Dell uses a Samsung PVA panel, both of which are fine, especially for the price.

One type of panel that you should absolutely stay away from if you want color accuracy and viewable angles is TN. The Samsung 245B has a pathetic 6-bit color pallet, producing only a few hundred thousand colors (16.2 million with dithering, which looks mediocre), while the PVA and MVA panels discussed use 8-bit, 16.7 million color technology that is noticeably superior to 6-bit junk like the 245B

Software calibration? Like what? (Remember, I've never done this.)

Also, I've read some people say that they swear only by IPS panels. Were they serious? And if so, what is it about those panels that's got them hooked?

 

[applebook]

Please read the sticky at the top of this forum for a primer on the different LCD types. IPS panels generally (though not always) produces slightly more accurate colors than PVA/MVA panels and much better viewing angles, but tend to be slightly slower, less sharp (not as high contrast), and inferior at reproducing the deepest blacks.

All panel types have strengths and weaknesses; it's up to you to decide which panel works best for you based on your needs and budget. TN panels are fine if you're on a budget and want the fastest LCD possible for gaming.

I use a free app called SuperCal to calibrate my displays. SuperCal is an OS X app, but there are plenty of Windows programs out there that will do a decent job. There is no substitute for hardware calibration, but programs are a cheap and fairly effective solution for those of us who are either too lazy and/or too cheap to invest in a Spyder2.

 

[JYeager11]

Please read the sticky at the top of this forum for a primer on the different LCD types. IPS panels generally (though not always) produces slightly more accurate colors than PVA/MVA panels and much better viewing angles, but tend to be slightly slower, less sharp (not as high contrast), and inferior at reproducing the deepest blacks.

My daftness shames me. Thanks.

All panel types have strengths and weaknesses; it's up to you to decide which panel works best for you based on your needs and budget. TN panels are fine if you're on a budget and want the fastest LCD possible for gaming.

Or, failing any real experience with any of these panels, I can just buy the Dell and be offered a random panel. At least, that's my understanding of what people mean by panel lottery.

I use a free app called SuperCal to calibrate my displays. SuperCal is an OS X app, but there are plenty of Windows programs out there that will do a decent job. There is no substitute for hardware calibration, but programs are a cheap and fairly effective solution for those of us who are either too lazy and/or too cheap to invest in a Spyder2.

I'm having a hard time picturing how a soft calibrator can be all that useful. If you can't compare what's on the screen to anything offscreen, what good is it?

 

[joemama]

Express does not give any hardware pre-calibration (the RGB adjustment). Express also does not allow for deviation from a 2.2/6500K whitepoint, whereas Pro allows custom whitepoints.

I would disagree about it being useless, while the hardware pre-alibration is certainly very desirable (IMO the Express is useless because it does not include this) the profiling is what gets monitors to really do their best.

The Spyder2Pro is what most people should be getting, particularly those with CRT's.

Alternatively you can go straight for a better product like ColorEyes DisplayPro. The software is quite a bit better than Colorvision's offerings but it's a fair amount more money ($325 with a DTP-94 vs $225 ish street for the Spyder2Pro).

I own both a Spyder2Pro suite and DisplayPro with a DTP-94, if people are interested and I'm bored enough I might be convinced to calibrate with the Spyder2Pro software + sensor, then validate with DisplayPro + the DTP-94.

Viper GTS

I have a Spyder 2 Express..and have also tried the Pro software (thanks to a friend) but by FAR the best calibration I achieved was with the Spyder 2 + Coloreyes Display Pro beta. The beta is over now so I can't use it again but when my monitors settings drift over time I will probably purchase the Coloreyes software.

 

[joemama]

Software calibration? Like what? (Remember, I've never done this.)

Also, I've read some people say that they swear only by IPS panels. Were they serious? And if so, what is it about those panels that's got them hooked?

Mostly it's the viewing angles and color uniformity. The best example is if you have a laptop...you know that when you flip the screen up you have to have it a just the right angle for it to look best? With IPS panels there is a much wider range..so for example if you like to kick back in your chair or slouch to the side occasionally, the screen won't shift in brightness or color.

 

[JYeager11]

Mostly it's the viewing angles and color uniformity. The best example is if you have a laptop...you know that when you flip the screen up you have to have it a just the right angle for it to look best? With IPS panels there is a much wider range..so for example if you like to kick back in your chair or slouch to the side occasionally, the screen won't shift in brightness or color.

So as someone who prioritizes text sharpness and graphic editing, I should NOT consider the FP241WZ or 2407WFP-HC... and look into IPS panels instead?

I'd like to watch movies and play a bit of XBox 360 on this thing as well... but those concerns are secondary to the text sharpness and graphic designing.

Have I been influenced too much by the hype surrounding the BenQ and Dell? I was told I can't go wrong with those two no matter what my needs are.

 

[NuclearBlasted]

Have I been influenced too much by the hype surrounding the BenQ and Dell? I was told I can't go wrong with those two no matter what my needs are.

You are wrong. I don't think any monitor sub-$1000 is going to be perfect no matter what your needs are. There is not anything completely wrong about them, but they both have weaknesses and strengths that need to be evaluated, just like any other competing hardware fields.

 

[Machineguy59]

You are wrong. I don't think any monitor sub-$1000 is going to be perfect no matter what your needs are. There is not anything completely wrong about them, but they both have weaknesses and strengths that need to be evaluated, just like any other competing hardware fields.

I am very happy with my Dell 2407wfp-hc. Its an upgrade from a good CRT, I use it primarily for web surfing and editing, including photo editing. I think you would also be happy with one. But be advised, NO display is without some compromise. Each observer seems to have a different set of criteria so you get different reports of acceptability. The result is eternal confusion. Here is a summary of my take.

CRT's have relatively small viewing areas, the settings often drift, they are desk hogging, and are incapable of true blacks. that's why most people are moving to LCD panels even though they are not perfect.
Within LCD the IPS panels have the best color uniformity and viewing angles but they are usually too slow for use in gaming, deep blacks can appear to be washed out when viewed in a dark room, and they are expensive.
TN LCD's have fast response, are the least expensive of the LCDs but have significant color and contrast shift with viewing angle and significant backlight bleed.
The MVA and PVA LCDs have great black depth, good color uniformity and viewing angles and great contrast, they are a good compromise between the IPS and TN in cost and performance.
Nearly every computer monitor LCD has processing artifacts when displaying DVD. This is a result of contrast and response enhancement processing that is not optimized for DVD motion.

So you can go wrong. Its a matter of deciding what is important to you and buying the display that fits most of your criteria. I think the color uniformity and depth on my Dell is exactly what I was looking for. The black crush is slightly annoying but and acceptable trade-off for the deep colors and contrast. Give up on utopia, settle for the best fit available to your needs today.

Mac

 

[JYeager11]

So you can go wrong. Its a matter of deciding what is important to you and buying the display that fits most of your criteria. I think the color uniformity and depth on my Dell is exactly what I was looking for. The black crush is slightly annoying but and acceptable trade-off for the deep colors and contrast. Give up on utopia, settle for the best fit available to your needs today.

Mac

Granted, but Anandtech estimates market value for the BenQ FP241WZ as ~$790 USD, and the Dell 2407WFP-HC as ~$679 USD. Meaning the BenQ is roughly $110 pricier than the Dell HC.

Here in Canada however, NCIX offers the BenQ WZ @ $690 CND (ie, $650 USD... that's $140 below market value). Meanwhile, Dell.ca sells the HC at $800 CND ($754 USD), which is over $100 more than the estimated market value listed.

I realize estimates are just estimates, but am I crazy for even hesitating to pull the trigger on the BenQ given the price it's going for as a NCIX special of the week... or are there better deals I can get for the Dell HC that I don't know about?

If I can get the Dell for roughly the same price as the WZ (which is supposed to be over 100$ pricier than the Dell in the first place) then I may very well go Dell instead of BenQ.

 

[Luthorcrow]

CRT's have relatively small viewing areas, the settings often drift, they are desk hogging, and are incapable of true blacks. that's why most people are moving to LCD panels even though they are not perfect...

Everything you said there is correct except the blacks. CRTs do better blacks then LCDs no matter the price. That will likely change as contrasts and features improve (maybe 08,09) but for right right now, CRTs pistol whip all LCDs on black levels.

Back to the topic, just Ebay the Spider 2 package for about 40-70 on Ebay and be happy.

 

[applebook]

Since you're Canadian, I suggest getting the LG when it's on sale at Futureshop. Generally, they knock $50 off the $650 retail.

If you don't like it, you can easily return it. Also, Best Buy carries the BenQ WZ, which is usually on sale for $650.

 

[JYeager11]

Also, Best Buy carries the BenQ WZ, which is usually on sale for $650.

Not in Canada they don't (which is understandably all that matters to me). The only 24" BenQ they carry here (see BestBuy.ca) is the VW, which is butt ugly and doesn't adjust vertically.

 

[applebook]

Yeah, you're right. I mistook the VW for the WZ.

Anyway, look into the LG from Futureshop. Even if you buy it at $650, within 30 days, there will likely be a sale on it, and you can get reimbursed. The LG was $580 on Canada Day.

 

[R0achTheWarHero]

So as someone who prioritizes text sharpness and graphic editing

It is hilarious that you post this statement yet the moron squad comes right behind chanting BUY THE MVA LG L246WP. The monitor that has the least sharp text out of any 24inch display you can buy. I do graphics myself (mostly 3d) so don't listen to these idiots telling you this stuff, go look at any photography forum or graphics forum and see how everyone on the forum despises PVA/MVA panels because they are not good for doing graphics whatsover due to the black crush effect.

Either buy a 26" planar IPS panel for $900ish or the 24" 245bw Samsung TN panel or maybe an older 23"/24" ips panel if sharp text/picture is what you want.

These morons like Applebook will spam all day about how Samsung TN panel doesn't have good color because he read TN panels aren't good in a 4 year old LCD sticky guide on some forum yet when people test the new Samsung TN panels (226bw) heres the result uncalibrated, 2.1delta (less is better):

http://www.behardware.com/medias/photos_news/00/19/IMG0019708.gif

I don't think even the $1500 NEC pro displays have a delta that low pre-calibration.

 

[Madman0]

Used spyder2pro on a nec 20wmgx2, it has no way to change RGB levels for monitor pre-calibration and the profile it gave me had some retardedly bad red tint to it that was unusable.

Maybe you just barely tried and gave up? The 20WMGX2 has 6 color modes - 2 of which are sRGB and Native which are hard set and non-adjustable. The other 4 are Kelvin levels which are merely presets with different R/G/B levels and as soon as you move the slider for any color it becomes 'user defined.' I believe that means it actually has 4 custom RGB settings profiles.

 

[JYeager11]

Either buy a 26" planar IPS panel for $900ish or the 24" 245bw Samsung TN panel or maybe an older 23"/24" ips panel if sharp text/picture is what you want.

These morons like Applebook will spam all day about how Samsung TN panel doesn't have good color because he read TN panels aren't good in a 4 year old LCD sticky guide on some forum yet when people test the new Samsung TN panels (226bw) heres the result uncalibrated, 2.1delta (less is better):

http://www.behardware.com/medias/photos_news/00/19/IMG0019708.gif

I don't think even the $1500 NEC pro displays have a delta that low pre-calibration.

Hey, thanks for the extra advice... however, with regards to your Samsung suggestion :

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Appendix A. A Few Words About "Panel Lotteries"
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Several manufacturers, including Dell and Samsung, have played the panel "bait and switch" game thinking no one would notice. A controversial practice called a "panel lottery" by others, they will originally release a good panel (for reviewers) and switch to an inferior one later on (probably to make some more money). Dell first put an S-IPS in their 2007WFP and later switched to an S-PVA, whose performance was deemed very low compared to the S-IPS. Samsung originally was making "S" (Samsung) TN panels for their 226BW, until they outsourced their production to AU Optronics ("A"), CMO ("C"), and CPT ("P"). The A, C, and P panels performed poorly at the default color settings. All of their colors were equal after calibration, although the C panel had more issues with response time. Since many folks don't own a colorimeter, they will end up with a panel that can't display colors with the same fidelity as the original "S" panel. Later, both Dell and Samsung began hiding the panel information from the service menu and the back panel.

In an interview, Samsung stated that after April 1st they would release only "S" panels (in France). Three Frenchmen discovered 2 A panels and 1 C panel with their 226BWs manufactured after April 1.

Source :
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=31&threadid=2049206&enterthread=y

 

[applebook]

Maybe you just barely tried and gave up? The 20WMGX2 has 6 color modes - 2 of which are sRGB and Native which are hard set and non-adjustable. The other 4 are Kelvin levels which are merely presets with different R/G/B levels and as soon as you move the slider for any color it becomes 'user defined.' I believe that means it actually has 4 custom RGB settings profiles.

Why are you trying to be reasonable with a moron who thinks that his 6-bit color panel is somehow color accurate?

 

[R0achTheWarHero]

Why are you trying to be reasonable with a moron who thinks that his 6-bit color panel is somehow color accurate?

Because morons like you obviously can't read. Look at the picture

http://www.behardware.com/medias/photos_news/00/19/IMG0019708.gif

Thats 2.1 delta on an uncalibrated 226bw TN panel for $320. Wheres your link to a MVA or PVA panel that is anywhere that good in color uncalibrated, I'll even let you go up to double the price.

Don't take my word for it though, listen to the Mac user, when I need hardware advice the first thing I think of is to ask a Mac user.

 

[JYeager11]

Because morons like you obviously can't read. Look at the picture

http://www.behardware.com/medias/photos_news/00/19/IMG0019708.gif

Thats 2.1 delta on an uncalibrated 226bw TN panel for $320. Wheres your link to a MVA or PVA panel that is anywhere that good in color uncalibrated, I'll even let you go up to double the price.

Yes, but that's the 226BW that does a 2.1 delta. Not the 245BW.

I don't mean to question your findings, but you're comparing a 22" screen capable of only 1600 pixels with 24-inchers doing 1920 of native res. Keeping in mind that lower Deltas mean better color accuracy, if we substitute the 226BW for its 24" counterpart -- the 245BW, which you recommended just a couple of posts earlier -- we find that 2.1 shoot all the way up to a 4.5 (the worst score of all the 24" tested on BeHardware.com, the very site you got your 2.1 Delta figure from; and those tests include the Dell, LG, Acer and Viewsonic... all scoring better Deltas @ 24" than the 245BW).

In fact, the 2407WFP-HC scores the best Delta among all 24" tested, at 2.3. That's nearly twice as good as the 245BW.

All of which being moot, as I am not looking for a 22", 1600-pixel screen. 1920 native res is crucial. Let's try to keep comparing apples with apples (no pun intended, Mac users).

 

[Madman0]

Is a one-monitor sample size really enough to prove anything?

At least R0ach lived up to his nick and neatly sidestepped my comment about the NEC color settings as deftly as a real roach sidesteps a shoe-stomping.

 

[R0achTheWarHero]

if we substitute the 226BW for its 24" counterpart -- the 245BW, which you recommended just a couple of posts earlier -- we find that 2.1 shoot all the way up to a 4.5 .

They may have started a panel lottery with 245bw, all of the ones I have seen tested including my own have excess green pre-calibration and blue is the tint it has the least of. The hidden menu also doesn't display panel type so you have to take it apart.

If it has excess blue it's probably an AU panel just like with the 226bw's.

The S panels have next to 0 light bleed on the 245bw also and I have seen people complain about "bad light bleed" so wouldn't be surprised if some are AU.

Theres a very in depth review of 245bw on a foreign site in english where everything is tested and the colors came out to be better than p-mva 20inch panels like the viewsonic

 

[Bitla]

The original question was: which version of Spyder2 to get? I am having the same problem right now, because I have Vista and Sypder2 is the only calibration system to run under it. I called a Display2 dealer and asked the Vista-question. Answer: a clear and unambiguous NO. So there is absolutely no choice if you have a new PC with a new display and want to get it calibrated. Or do those of you who deviated from the original question and recommended the use of other systems, have Vista-experience? Grateful for your replies!
I think the Spyder2Pro would be the better choice because of its many possibilities?