Nintendo's next console "Project Cafe" to be powered by AMD R700 GPU

Jon55 said:
That's a lot of collected dust. :p

Then again, what with the past week's recent unfortunate events and all, you could probably say the same thing for the PS3.

I'm extremely excited to hear that Nintendo's GPU will be much more powerful than the current generations top performer in terms of raw hardware performance (the PS3). This should mean that Microsoft and Sony will up the ante and offer even more powerful hardware, which in turns means games will actually start looking like, well, not shit and stop using DX9 and more DX11.
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By the way, the only console that uses the DirectX API is the Xbox 360, specifically 9.0c and Shader Model 3.0. It has not and will not be licensed to Sony or Nintendo for their own game development and console.

I am unsure what Nintendo uses, but I think it's the same as the PS3-- OpenGL (or a variant of it).

So, saying that the new system will use DX9, DX10 or even DX11 will not happen and is incorrect. I would more likely expect DX10 or even DX11 in the next Microsoft console though.

However, neither Microsoft or Sony have announced plans to release a new console. One of the more recent news I've read from a few months ago is that there will not be a new console from either company. Even with one of them stating, I believe Microsoft, that the 360 is more than enough for now especially with DLCs and new programs that will expand the 360's capabilities. For example, Netflix and Hulu on the 360. (I think the original report was on Engadget or Joystiq.com)

But, given this new Nintendo's console's assumed power, I would not be surprised Microsoft and Sony change their mind in the coming months.

I think a correct statement would be that the new Nintendo system will exploit and take advantage of the increased shader units and pixel fillrate of the new GPU. This in turn will give an increased graphics performance over the 360 and PS3, or something on par with current gen systems.

If the Nintendo console uses the R770 (4870), then it would take advantage of the tesselation units that was previously mentioned.
 
JMccovery said:
Do you think the 360 actually uses all 6 threads while playing games? The GPU does most of the work, as long as the CPU doesn't hold it back. A ~2GHz dual-core PPC would be enough to push 1080p.

You seem not to understand that they do not use already made chips besides the CPU, off-the-shelf chips would take up too much space on the console's PCB.

They license the graphics technology to make it themselves. This was the problem Microsoft had with Nvidia on the original Xbox. Nvidia would not license the underlying technology to Microsoft, so MS had to abide by Nvidia's manufacturing schedule.

Nintendo licensed the 'Flipper' technology from ArtX before they were acquired by ATi, Nintendo manufactured the GPU, just like they did with 'Hollywood' in the Wii.
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given the simplicity of the Kinect games, I would say that is a definate yes that they are using every ounce of CPU available to them....

BTW it takes a C2D machine (a cpu that totally lays waste to the PPC derived stuff in the consoles) paired with a RV770 to give 1080p gaming that does not dip below 30fps plus the xbox I believe reserves one core to run the system thus leaving 2 cores to get the job done. and thankfully the C2D machine has enough to spare that it can actually drive significantly more powerful hardware before you reach the point of it being the bottleneck

Btw, flipper and hollywood are property of Nintendo, not AMD (ie Artx//ATi/AMD designed it for them only just as the GPU in the 360 belongs to MS). Now with that said, I am sure AMD reserved the right to apply that technology to their other products as long as they do not sell the exact same design to a competitor's console (you won't find the 360 GPU being used anywhere else but the 360)
 
needmorecarnitine said:
1. He said the cpu will be at least a dual core
2. Says in the first post "It will be a triple core"
3. Using off the shelf doesn't make sense. Again, first post says its a revamped design. You want proof? Wait till it comes out. Nintendo will use a gpu that fits the parameters they chose, not whatever they can save $3 on.
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1. do you honestly think that a PPC dual core at .8-1Ghz is enough to push 1080p? really?
2. I was replying to his specific post, 'nuff said
3. given the current economic climate, I seriously doubt Nintendo is going to put down big money to design a entirely new gpu, picking an off the self part that is proven and has known performance and tweaking it by adding some other things related to system control is the most likely approach. AMD fusion type of design will be most logical choice (intergrated cpu/gpu/partial system logic).

I would hope that Nitendo would use a QUAD core design becuase that would give the console the legs to make it another 5-7 years.

sorry I should have been more clear a dual core cpu at those speeds would not cut it since you need a good chunk of cpu resource to actually run the system and deal with security concerns and that is why I said single core because that is what you would effectively have left......
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
1. do you honestly think that a PPC dual core at .8-1Ghz is enough to push 1080p? really?
2. I was replying to his specific post, 'nuff said
3. given the current economic climate, I seriously doubt Nintendo is going to put down big money to design a entirely new gpu, picking an off the self part that is proven and has known performance and tweaking it by adding some other things related to system control is the most likely approach. AMD fusion type of design will be most logical choice (intergrated cpu/gpu/partial system logic).

I would hope that Nitendo would use a QUAD core design becuase that would give the console the legs to make it another 5-7 years.

sorry I should have been more clear a dual core cpu at those speeds would not cut it since you need a good chunk of cpu resource to actually run the system and deal with security concerns and that is why I said single core because that is what you would effectively have left......
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1. Why are you asking me that? I never said anything about what I thought would be needed to run it. I was responding to your post because it appeared as if you hadn't read his post where he claimed at least dual core.


3. They aren't designing an entirely new gpu. Again, did you even read the article? Here is the link again:

http://au.gear.ign.com/articles/116/1163325p1.html

This part is important:

IGN said:
that the system will be based on a revamped version of AMD's R700 GPU architecture
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Revamped, not entirely new. You know what revamped means right?

There is no way that this will be "fusion-like". THAT would cost a lot of money.
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
given the simplicity of the Kinect games, I would say that is a definate yes that they are using every ounce of CPU available to them....

BTW it takes a C2D machine (a cpu that totally lays waste to the PPC derived stuff in the consoles) paired with a RV770 to give 1080p gaming that does not dip below 30fps plus the xbox I believe reserves one core to run the system thus leaving 2 cores to get the job done. and thankfully the C2D machine has enough to spare that it can actually drive significantly more powerful hardware before you reach the point of it being the bottleneck

Btw, flipper and hollywood are property of Nintendo, not AMD (ie Artx//ATi/AMD designed it for them only just as the GPU in the 360 belongs to MS). Now with that said, I am sure AMD reserved the right to apply that technology to their other products as long as they do not sell the exact same design to a competitor's console (you won't find the 360 GPU being used anywhere else but the 360)
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I don't think you can actually compare a Core 2 Duo in a PC to a PowerPC in a console, since the entire software environment of the two systems are completely different...

You seem not to have got where I said that Nintendo licensed the design from ArtX, which means it belongs to Nintendo, same as Microsoft licensed the Xenos design from ATi, which means it belongs to MS...
 
XacTactX said:
R700 as in RV770, the core found in the 4800 series? That's just weird, why use a 55nm chip in 2011? They could get alot better yields and power efficiency out of a new 40nm chip. The 360 and PS3 have been using 45nm for almost a year now.
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Price perhaps... and as usual Nintendo has never been cutting edge in terms of power for their games...

keep it small yet useful?
 
<.<
R700 derivatives do not mean 55nm only, remember that the 4770 was the first 40nm solution.
 
octoberasian said:
Just by going on numbers alone, this system if it uses a Radeon 4770 will be more powerful than either the PS3 or 360 by a big margin. And, there are critics here stating that Nintendo should have gone with a 5000-series or even 6000-series GPU?
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The 360 is 5 1/2 years old. Hell a Tegra chip that fits in a tablet can run things at 1080p. Integrated graphics on a pc (Sandybridge, LLano, etc) are already faster than a 4770.

That said, the Wii was a weak system and it's no surprise that the 2wii will be a weak system. Their games are not built on a need for power. Now if the NextBox or PS4 had these kind of specs, that truly would be a disappointment.
 
Mr. Bluntman said:
Only because of their overwhelmingly sucessful handheld business. Nobody holds a candle to the big N when it comes to portables.
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Yea lets not forget there overwhelmingly successful home console business as well. They've sold a shit on of Wii's and Wii fits and other accessories.

Wii 2 or Project or whatever the fuck they wanna call it will be another huge success. And for the first time Nintendo is seeing a dark spot in its portable console business. The 3DS isn't selling well at all , its selling but far slower than they wanted it too .. people just don't "get" the whole 3D push and parents won't spend $250 on a portable gaming console of any kind.
 
PRIME1 said:
The 360 is 5 1/2 years old. Hell a Tegra chip that fits in a tablet can run things at 1080p. Integrated graphics on a pc (Sandybridge, LLano, etc) are already faster than a 4770.

That said, the Wii was a weak system and it's no surprise that the 2wii will be a weak system. Their games are not built on a need for power. Now if the NextBox or PS4 had these kind of specs, that truly would be a disappointment.
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Tegra can run 1080p VIDEO, not 3d graphics.

Integrated is also not faster than a 4770, at all.

And about the Wii2 being weak, well, time will say, but at least it will be quite a bit faster than the 360 and the PS3, which is something needed, and since the other 2 players aren't really interested in upgrading soon, this may actually be a nice strategic move by Nintendo.
 
JMccovery said:
I don't think you can actually compare a Core 2 Duo in a PC to a PowerPC in a console, since the entire software environment of the two systems are completely different...

You seem not to have got where I said that Nintendo licensed the design from ArtX, which means it belongs to Nintendo, same as Microsoft licensed the Xenos design from ATi, which means it belongs to MS...
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This is correct, you cannot directly compare the CPU used by the current consoles directly with ones used on PCs (and likely the Nintendo one as well). The Xbox360 uses a 3.2ghz tri core PowerPC capable of 6 threads, but it is a RISC and in-order processor.

Revdarian said:
And about the Wii2 being weak, well, time will say, but at least it will be quite a bit faster than the 360 and the PS3, which is something needed, and since the other 2 players aren't really interested in upgrading soon, this may actually be a nice strategic move by Nintendo.
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If the Wii2 can play 360/PS3 games but scaled up it will attract 3rd party developers to port titles, giving it a larger library then otherwise, while at the same time giving it an advantage and upgrade incentive over its competitors. And because the hardware is not "crazy" it will be very cost effective.
 
fishrule said:
Nintendo's design philosophy has always been to use established tech that is well documented and offers a wide profit margin. Nintendo doesn't operate like MS or Sony, who basically give away the hardware and recoup costs in software licensing. Not saying its good or bad, but thats the basic reasoning that Nintendo uses.
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You've sad it all. Nintendo boasted about how the Wii was dirt cheap to make and the profit on each console was huge. Typical Nintendo strategy indeed , kinda sad though that the portable console market gets any real innovation from Nintendo (motion controls are not "innovative" sorry). Nintendo hardly takes any risks anymore.

Its funny I was watching Zero Punctuation and Yahtzee made a great point , Nintendo either is flying high on success of tumbling downhill into an ocean of shit .. they don't seem to ever deal with a middle ground. They seem to support this attitude as well since there first party support has been extremely bland and just a constant recycle (once in a while a gem comes out like Super Mario Galaxy) of games with little to no real change.

I'm sure this one will do fine however , parents just buy Nintendo products for there kids and don't give a shit about anything remotely about the console.
 
Godmachine said:
You've sad it all. Nintendo boasted about how the Wii was dirt cheap to make and the profit on each console was huge. Typical Nintendo strategy indeed , kinda sad though that the portable console market gets any real innovation from Nintendo (motion controls are not "innovative" sorry). Nintendo hardly takes any risks anymore.
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Yes Sony has a more innovative approach to handheld gaming by just throwing a lot more power into the handheld.

Nintendo are not a hardware company they are a software company and they have always worked around limitations to make games. Arguably most of Nintendo's best games are more than a decade old. Damn arguably a lot of the best PC games are a decade old.

You don't need massive power to do good games, in fact you can do great games without much power. If you own a high end gaming PC then you can probably get away with demanding constant graphics upgrades but consoles are not designed to be all powerful and any advantage they do have doesn't last long.

Nintendo's approach isn't to try and make a retarded PC and sell fancy graphics on consoles when PC's are way ahead. Their approach is to make a console that has decent enough graphics but primarily gives them the tools to create experiences.

Most of their games are first party because most developers don't know how to sell their games without pretty graphics. You won't see annual Call of Duty on the Wii bragging about its graphics prowess but I think that is a good thing.

The truth is the consoles should stick to doing what they do well. That is finding innovative ways to use the power at your disposal to create interesting experiences. PC games can get away with a higher ceiling because the hardware is constantly being improved. Handhelds are about making compelling experiences on the go.

Out of all the gaming devices I own the PC wins out for me easily but I'd take the Wii and DS over the PS3 and 360 any day. The state of consoles this generation is just sad.
 
PRIME1 said:
The 360 is 5 1/2 years old. Hell a Tegra chip that fits in a tablet can run things at 1080p. Integrated graphics on a pc (Sandybridge, LLano, etc) are already faster than a 4770.

That said, the Wii was a weak system and it's no surprise that the 2wii will be a weak system. Their games are not built on a need for power. Now if the NextBox or PS4 had these kind of specs, that truly would be a disappointment.
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no, please try again...........sandy bridge intergrated graphics can barely run most recent games at the 1336*768 resolution with LOW settings that most of those systems come with......
 
JMccovery said:
I don't think you can actually compare a Core 2 Duo in a PC to a PowerPC in a console, since the entire software environment of the two systems are completely different...

You seem not to have got where I said that Nintendo licensed the design from ArtX, which means it belongs to Nintendo, same as Microsoft licensed the Xenos design from ATi, which means it belongs to MS...
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sure you can, just look up their respective computing performance and it becomes quite clear which CPU is the dominate one

19,200 MIPS at 3.2 GHz 3 core 360 cpu
59,455 MIPS at 3.2 GHz 2 core (QX9XXX)

triple the performance

Nintendo didn't license the tech, the outright bought it as in it is Nintendo's...I think you are confused as to what a license is......

There is no way a dual core PPC is going to outperform a C2D machine at this point in the game
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
sure you can, just look up their respective computing performance and it becomes quite clear which CPU is the dominate one

19,200 MIPS at 3.2 GHz 3 core 360 cpu
59,455 MIPS at 3.2 GHz 2 core (QX9XXX)

triple the performance

Nintendo didn't license the tech, the outright bought it as in it is Nintendo's...I think you are confused as to what a license is......

There is no way a dual core PPC is going to outperform a C2D machine at this point in the game
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This assumes that Project Cafe's CPUs have the same in-order execution limitation of the 360. If Cafe's processors are capable of out-of-order execution, performance could be MUCH higher, maybe even on the heels of a Core 2 Duo (we can dream, right?). With a die-shrunk R700 derivative (possibly with more shader processors than ever shipped on a PC card) and at least a gig of fast RAM, it could be special... but we'll have to wait and see.
 
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PRIME1 said:
The 360 is 5 1/2 years old. Hell a Tegra chip that fits in a tablet can run things at 1080p. Integrated graphics on a pc (Sandybridge, LLano, etc) are already faster than a 4770.
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Llano is faster than 40nm HD4850? Those Amish used to overtake us in my dad's corvette on the PA countryside, too. Damn those buggies were fast! :rolleyes:

Everyone seems to be missing the point. Nintendo made more profit from hardware yet their hardware was "the worst" if you're the enthusiast percentile that hangs around here.
From a business point of view how can they cram the cheapest but most passable crap in the Xbox 3/PS4? They'd be dumb not to follow that strategy and they will end up subsidizing hardware again and not making profits until 3-5 years in... yet again.

If the Wii can go to 720 or 1080 and have that as the norm, they will have completed their goal. Having an interesting catalog of original and innovative games on the other hand might prove to be a difficult feat.
 
WBurchnall said:
I think the original point still stands though that probably a game built from the ground up for Dx11 would look better than a game built from the ground up for Dx9/10. If you look at some of the DX11 exclusive titles like Aliens Vs Predator or perhaps more so Metro2033, they look fantastic compared to some of the shooters of the DX9 age like Deus Ex 1 for example.

In any case, the DX11 rendering path is more efficient than the DX10 rendering path. If you took a 5770 or something equivilent to a 4870 in terms of shaders and ran say 'World of Warcraft' in Dx10/Dx11 with the same quality options, you'd get more fps with the DX11 version. I'd rather see a mid-range 5xxx series card than a high end 48xx series card. That's just my two cents.
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Deus Ex as a DirectX 9 app? o_O No, no, no - that's based on Unreal Engine 1.5, and featured native Glide support. That's DirectX 6 territory at best.

I'll agree that DX11 can look significantly better, but Direct3D isn't being implemented. My guess is that Cafe will either support OpenGL ES, or that Nintendo will have its own API to talk to the hardware. There may have been enough of a pricing advantage in going with a respun R700 to choose it over newer, more capable parts - remember, they have to buy MILLIONS of these things. R700 still offers greater flexibility than any current console's graphics hardware, and at this point it'd be a "safe" bet from an engineering standpoint. It'll be neat to see how this all shakes out.
 
Halon said:
This assumes that Project Cafe's CPUs have the same in-order execution limitation of the 360. If Cafe's processors are capable of out-of-order execution, performance could be MUCH higher, maybe even on the heels of a Core 2 Duo (we can dream, right?). With a die-shrunk R700 derivative (possibly with more shader processors than ever shipped on a PC card) and at least a gig of fast RAM, it could be special... but we'll have to wait and see.
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One thing they could do to increase performance is to significantly up the L2 cache thus keeing the core of the program on the cpu die
 
octoberasian said:
By the way, the only console that uses the DirectX API is the Xbox 360, specifically 9.0c and Shader Model 3.0. It has not and will not be licensed to Sony or Nintendo for their own game development and console.

I am unsure what Nintendo uses, but I think it's the same as the PS3-- OpenGL (or a variant of it).

So, saying that the new system will use DX9, DX10 or even DX11 will not happen and is incorrect. I would more likely expect DX10 or even DX11 in the next Microsoft console though.

However, neither Microsoft or Sony have announced plans to release a new console. One of the more recent news I've read from a few months ago is that there will not be a new console from either company. Even with one of them stating, I believe Microsoft, that the 360 is more than enough for now especially with DLCs and new programs that will expand the 360's capabilities. For example, Netflix and Hulu on the 360. (I think the original report was on Engadget or Joystiq.com)

But, given this new Nintendo's console's assumed power, I would not be surprised Microsoft and Sony change their mind in the coming months.

I think a correct statement would be that the new Nintendo system will exploit and take advantage of the increased shader units and pixel fillrate of the new GPU. This in turn will give an increased graphics performance over the 360 and PS3, or something on par with current gen systems.

If the Nintendo console uses the R770 (4870), then it would take advantage of the tesselation units that was previously mentioned.
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Actually, Xbox 360 uses a custom DX9 API with SM 3.5 model since it has an unified shader architecture and can do tessellation up to 16x amplification (Not done in game's as the performance impact is too high). Far Cry Instinct on Xbox 360 used some tessellation and it looked even better than the original PC version of Far Cry, specially the water.
 
hey
why are they using a gpu so old? how can a so underpowered gpu make amazing graphics like a newer highend computer video card?
 
AndréRocha;1037321867 said:
hey
why are they using a gpu so old? how can a so underpowered gpu make amazing graphics like a newer highend computer video card?
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it can't. that's why it's a console.
 
The other consoles are so horribly outdated in GPU features, there's really nothing wrong with a custom 32nm RV770. ;)
 
Nintendo is for little children anyways so hardware is not necessary when the games are powered by Dora the Explorer.
 
damn this is the coolest news for this! yay!

heard these were fake... damn!
 
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For those that don't know, the PS3 and Xbox360 are using around the same as an X1950.

We all would have wanted to see something with a bigger punch, but Nintendo has always wanted to make a profit on the hardware it sells, so in order to achieve that with a good enough performance they prefer to use a DX10 chip.

To put it in perspective, the chip would be around 30% faster than a 5770 in raw power for DX9//10 titles, which would be leaps and bounds better than the other current consoles.

And well all in all that profit strategy sure has worked.
In regards to gaming Nintendo is much bigger than Sony and Microsoft's division, mostly because of the continuous profits it has reported all these years, which is why actually all points to the other two to change their strategy from bleeding edge to also a "good enough" next generation console.



I can only hope that they are not fake, if they are, bummer... a 4890 on a 32nm process would be around 1/3 the size of the original chip, running much cooler, which would be perfect for consoles... but yeah the 32nm fab process does point towards a fake, afterall, aren't we skipping that half node and going 28nm instead on most "open" Foundries?
 
28nm isn't technically out, but it should be.

Like i said, we did skip 32 to go to 28 (because 32 proved problematic), but since those slides say 32 then yeah that could point to a fake.
 
Revdarian said:
28nm isn't technically out, but it should be.

Like i said, we did skip 32 to go to 28 (because 32 proved problematic), but since those slides say 32 then yeah that could point to a fake.
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Well, 32nm is considered a 'half-node' when you ask TSMC. GlobalFoundries has a working BulkSI 32nm process. It is possible that Sony and Microsoft are waiting for TSMC's 28nm line to produce good yields, but it is looking like Nintendo may be able to fab their chips before MS/Sony.
 
We are again forgetting that PC GPUs cant be directly compared to a console GPU of the same generation. As stated earlier in the thread, the overhead of the DX API used in windows is really large compared to a console, roughly 5 times higher. So even if they did use a GPU that is a bit faster than the 4890 listed above, you still would have to take into account the geometry overhead (3000 calculations per cycle for PC AVG vs 15,000 calculations per cycle for console AVG). What this means is that a PC card has to be 5 times more powerful then its console part to match it. Now this isn't really hard these days what with the cards being well over 10 more powerful, but there was a time where PC GPUs were inferior to their console parts.

This is just on the video processing part this has nothing to do with the memory advantage that modern cards have, but it was brought up that to get true HD in next gen consoles then they will have to put in more ram that just the 512 MB they gave the PS3 and X360. 512 was the the high end amount back in 2005 with the 7900 and the x1950xtx both sporting a 512MB frame buffer.

As a result of this lack of RAM you may have noticed that texture wise console games look washed out compared to PC versions. this is exactly what cevit yerly was talking about when they said they had to do texture down-scaling to get crysis 2 to run on consoles. So yeah those that blame crytek for what many call a bad design choice, in reality is actually Microsoft bad choice in choosing so little memory to work with.

Back on topic if they do indeed put a 4890 derivative part in the next wii then it would have by comparison of overhead about as much power as the 5870. Lets just hope they also give it the proper amount of ram to work with this time around.
 
Well the leak says that it has 512MB for the system and 1024MB for the videocard with some 16MB of extra eDRAM, which is also leaps and bounds better than current consoles 512 total ram, not the framebuffer//textures only, but total.

edit to add:
http://www.beyond3d.com/content/articles/4/
That is an article about the ATi Xenos chip (Xbox360 one)
And in the amd chipset wikipedia page up there you can see some basic data about it too, similarly on the nvidia chipset wiki you can see the ps3's one.
 
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genetech said:
Back on topic if they do indeed put a 4890 derivative part in the next wii then it would have by comparison of overhead about as much power as the 5870. Lets just hope they also give it the proper amount of ram to work with this time around.
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how does this work?
 
JMccovery said:
That I'm wondering also... A 32nm die-shrunk RV770 'derivative' (since the R700 was actually two RV770s on one PCB), will perform just like a, wait for it, 55nm RV770...
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I think he mentions something about the capabilities of Direct X are greater on consoles?
 
I think that he tried to mention was referring to the fact that a direct comparison to windows can't be done because on consoles the standard is to program "direct to metal", and thus the overhead of an API isn't present.

Which actually does sound reasonably correct, and yes if we use World At War as an example of a standard DX9/10 game then yeah a 30% increment of raw power vs a 5770 and the "loss" of 12% overhead would put the suppossed chip on 5870 territory.
 
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