Pick a virtualization platform, besides ESX(i)

sabregen

sabregen

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Jun 6, 2005
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Guys, I started another thread as a rant on Hyper-V, but it's slowly becoming less and less relevant. In the past two days, I have tried the following (this is being done on a laptop, just to see how other virtualization solutions do it):

Windows Server 2k8 R2 RC w/Hyper-V
CentOS 5.3 x64 w/Xen
Ubuntu Server 9.04 w/KVM

My complaints are as follows:

2k8 w/Hyper-V:
Profile corruption + lock caused me to lose access to files after a reboot
Wireless interface not usable as host device for Virtual Network bridging to VMs
Cannot add/remove roles/features without a reboot (more than one at a time)
Cannot mount .ISO image to a VM is a role/feature has been added/removed, until reboot
Drivers are hit/miss
VM Management console is seriously lacking
Licensing is kind of wonky

CentOS 5.3 w/Xen:
Driver issues were plenty
No Xen kernel drivers available for my chosen platform (this may be my fault, but it's still a problem)
Could not get wireless to work at all
Ethernet driver was loaded, but even with Static IP, I could not talk beyond my physical Ethernet port
Because of network issues, could not update or deploy any VMs

Ubuntu 9.04 w/KVM:
Having to sudo all the time is kind of annoying
Wireless interface cannot act as bridge
Couldn't get wireless working, at all
Requires a WindowsXP drive .sys and .inf to get wireless working +ndis wrapper....WTF!?
Have to install GNOME post-install (from internet) in order to manage guest VMs that are GUI based (this should be a checkbox during the install of the base OS)
Have to download many different virtualization packages to be able to run VMs
Deployment of VMs is entirely command line, forcing command memorization
Management of VMs is intially command line


This is a mess! Does nayone have any recommendations for virtualization solutions that DO NOT require a host OS? In other words, anything that allows for virtualization, that doesn't first require windows, or Linux to be installed? Specifically, I am referring to VMware Server/Fusion/Workstaion or Microsoft VirtualServer/VirtualPC types of solutions. I'd like an integration virtualization solution, as a package that gets loaded post-base-install, just to check it out.

So far, I am NOT impressed with the competition that I've seen (to VMWare). My comments would be as follows:

Hyper-V is unstable, and does not support enough guest OSs. Management interface sucks. Requirement to reboot on any system changes is dumb. Clustering requires iSCSI is not good, needs wider storage support.

Xen probably has the best deployment and management interface, out of the three, but that's not saying much. Xen kernel based drivers as a requirement blows.

KVM under Ubuntu is the prettiest, and most usable as an all-in-one solution (for a workstation). Ubtuntu's strength is the desktop features, but to get those, you have to do a 1.9GB downloaded GNOME installation. KVM virtualization through command lin usage = fail.
 
Well..I'm not surprised at wireless issues. These aren't desktop/portable virtualization solutions.
 
I've used most virtualization solutions. As much as I like and encourage the use of open-source software, VMware is still the best in my book.
 
I've got this machine that can handle a few guests without issue, so I'm willing to try other solutions, if anyone has any suggestions.

And, yes...I am aware of the fact that I am walking on the wrong side of the line here griping about wireless issues for virtualization solutions, but honestly...Linux supports wireless without much effort...why is it so damned hard for Linux when the virtualization platform is involved? I read in the Ubtuntu KVM Deployment guide "most wireless device drivers don't support operating in bridged mode." Fine, I could accept that...if the wireless were working, at all.
 
as an aside to the contempt I currently feel for alternative virtualization solutions (at the moment), I think I may have to give Ubuntu on the desktop some serious consideration for regular usage.
 
I am not sure I understand the underlying requirement. Why is it you are looking for a solution other than VMware?
 
Citrix XenServer is good. It's managed remotely using a Windows application.
 
Because I"m trying to find alternatives that are worthy of attention. Part of my job is solution engineering, part is customer interfacing, and some is backend dev work with the potential for custoemr demo in a pre-sales capacity. I am trying to broaden my horizons.

FromTheLou - Tried your suggestion on Tuesday. I think it's garbage. I'd rather run XP + VirtualPC
 
Sun's Virtual Box?

I use it on my laptop and have been able to give it access to my wireless adapter.
 
checking out XenServer now. I may check out virtual box...but it requires a host OS, and I'm shooting for type 1 hypervisor stuff this time around.
 
sabregen said:
Because I"m trying to find alternatives that are worthy of attention. Part of my job is solution engineering, part is customer interfacing, and some is backend dev work with the potential for custoemr demo in a pre-sales capacity. I am trying to broaden my horizons.
Click to expand...
Honestly, from that perspective your dismissal of Hyper-V is surprising at best.
Complaining about needing to reboot Windows during install?! Come on!
Profile corruption? How about datastore corruption on the VMware side?
"Wonky" licensing ..., seriously ....

Your dislikes about Hyper-V are much more of a MS bash than an actual engineering observation of what Hyper-V really is and how it works. Hyper-V is perfectly fine in some cases, and even with System Center quite a bit less expensive than VMware.
 
sabregen said:
FromTheLou - Tried your suggestion on Tuesday. I think it's garbage. I'd rather run XP + VirtualPC
Click to expand...

2k8 w/Hyper-V != Hyper-V Server 2008 R2

There are quite a few differences between the two. Some of which contradict your issues.
sabregen said:
Profile corruption + lock caused me to lose access to files after a reboot
Click to expand...
-Don't know what to say about this one. I have had no issues like this even with large VM's (4TB+)
sabregen said:
Wireless interface not usable as host device for Virtual Network bridging to VMs
Click to expand...
-Which is to be expected. As you can see none of the other hypervisor software available can do this.
sabregen said:
Cannot add/remove roles/features without a reboot (more than one at a time)
Click to expand...
-This is a moot issue with Hyper-V Server 2008 R2 as there are no roles to add/remove. Hell you don't even really get a gui.
sabregen said:
Cannot mount .ISO image to a VM is a role/feature has been added/removed, until reboot
Click to expand...
-See previous comment
sabregen said:
Drivers are hit/miss
Click to expand...
-For a laptop. Maybe. I've had no issues on my whitebox VM server or on my Optiplex 755.
sabregen said:
VM Management console is seriously lacking
Click to expand...
-How so?
sabregen said:
Licensing is kind of wonky
Click to expand...
-Yeah, I guess free is too hard to understand.

I suspect that you haven't tried Hyper-V Server 2008 R2, which has been RTM'd and should be available on Technet/MSDN around the same time as Windows 7.

I'm not trying to be an MS fanboy or anything. I'm just saying use the right tool for the right job. And to me it seems like you should just stick with XP & vmware workstation.

If you are truly trying to broaden your horizons and find alternatives that are worthy of your attention, get off that laptop and get some real hardware.
 
so far Xen Server seems to be decent. not a lot of options, not as refined as ESXi, but just like ESXi, can be licensed up for functionality.

It's not as clumsy as KVM or Xen was, either. Installing Ubuntu Dekstop VM right now, gonna try a few more after that.
 
Thuleman - yeah, I guess having to reboot after changes in Windows = to be expected. Maybe I should just STFU about that.The profile corruption to me just reeked of being an unstable RC, with much needed additional bug fixes to be forthcoming. On the licensing...it is wonky! You have have 2k8 Std and add Hyper-V. This will allow oyu a 2k8VM license inside of Hyper-V, but you're limited to just running Hyper-V on the physical machine. All of your services have to run inside the VMs. This gets back to what lopoetve has been saying all along about VMWare and vCenter running as a VM. You don't want the management to be running as a VM, inside the environment.

Enterprise gives you 4 licenses, but it's really 4+1. Standard is really 1+1. Datacenter is unlimited. That's fine, but I'm really trying to get away from running management inside the environment. It's very frustrating to have to play "find the management VM" when the entire environment is taken down for planned DST. I have to go from machine to machine to find the management VMs. Additionally, the requirement that shared storage for clustering currently be on iSCSI only...don't care for that. They need to up the ante here.

FromTheLou - It appears that I may have made an incorrect assumption. There's a Server 2k8 R2 that you can add Hyper-V as a role to (which is what I used on Tuesday, and did not like). You're saying that there's also a Hyper-V 2k8 R2 server? I must have missed that one. I will look again on TechNet, but I've never even heard of it. Is it a Hype 1 Hypervisor (I would assume so, by your comments)

Maybe I should just get over the wireless issue...

How do you maange the Hyper-V server? I agree that I do need some real hardware. I will be taking over the IBM BCH + 4x HS21s (2xQuads + 16GB/ea) + 2x LS21s (2xQuads + 16GB/ea) two FC switches, an LSI based IBM DS series RAID controller, a tray of 4Gb FC disks, two 48 port switches, etc...

but that's in a few months. I will get my own dev environment to play with, so I am trying to pre-qualify the dev stuff that I want to play with, when I get real hardware.
 
sabregen said:
FromTheLou - It appears that I may have made an incorrect assumption. There's a Server 2k8 R2 that you can add Hyper-V as a role to (which is what I used on Tuesday, and did not like). You're saying that there's also a Hyper-V 2k8 R2 server? I must have missed that one. I will look again on TechNet, but I've never even heard of it. Is it a Hype 1 Hypervisor (I would assume so, by your comments)
Click to expand...

Yes, and here is the RC for it.

sabregen said:
Maybe I should just get over the wireless issue...
Click to expand...

I guess it all depends on your needs. I can't see many, if any, companies that would run a Virtualization software and use wireless. Hell so far I can't even find one that supports USB pass through. Other than desktop VM products. (vmware workstation & virtualbox do i believe)

sabregen said:
How do you maange the Hyper-V server?
Click to expand...

I use the Hyper-V Manager MMC snap-in. Any configuration and creation of VM's take place there. They do have System Center Virtual Machine Manager 2008 R2. I have the RC of it but haven't loaded it yet.

sabregen said:
I agree that I do need some real hardware. I will be taking over the IBM BCH + 4x HS21s (2xQuads + 16GB/ea) + 2x LS21s (2xQuads + 16GB/ea) two FC switches, an LSI based IBM DS series RAID controller, a tray of 4Gb FC disks, two 48 port switches, etc...

but that's in a few months. I will get my own dev environment to play with, so I am trying to pre-qualify the dev stuff that I want to play with, when I get real hardware.
Click to expand...

One thing to point out, is that you mentioned Hyper-V Server only supports iSCSI, here is what I've found in some of the docs for Hyper-V Server R2.

Microsoft Hyper-V Server 2008 R2 RC Overview v1.3.docx said:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=fdac7be8-1847-4839-991d-f84be95a33a0&displaylang=en

Storage

Direct Attach Storage (DAS): SATA, eSATA, PATA, SAS, SCSI, Firewire
Storage Area Networks (SANs): iSCSI, Fiber Channel, SAS
Click to expand...
 
I think (at least, I hope) that I properly stated that in the Hyper-V guide (Microsoft document, from the KB) was that Server 2k8 w/Hyper-V only supported iSCSI for clustered environments. Other storage devices are supported for single host implementations, but not for Server 2k8 w/Hyper-V clusters, currently.

I'm still playing with XenSource. It's kind of stripped down, and the menus took me a while to get used to (in a "where the hell did they put XYZ" kind of way). Overall, it seems decent. I already broke and Ubuntu 9.04 desktop VM though, by installing the XenSource Tools Debian Package (generic 2.6.29 kernel) in the VM...would not boot after installation and then a reboot, so I just rebuilt that.

Gonna play around with it for a bit...then I will very likely try the Hyper-V Server mention. Sounds like a good thing to check out.
 
I may have missed this part, but what is the reason you are looking for an ESXi alternative?

Is it just for educational / messing around purposes?

VMware is the Google of virtualization, accept your new overlord and master! :)
 
gimp0 said:
I may have missed this part, but what is the reason you are looking for an ESXi alternative?

Is it just for educational / messing around purposes?

VMware is the Google of virtualization, accept your new overlord and master! :)
Click to expand...

I'm a VCP, so when you say accept my overlord...they already own my ass. :D To answer your question though, I am looking for alternatives so that I can be aware of what else is hot and going on, in case I run into in the field, or in case VMWare isn't always the best answer for a client...so I know what the other options are, and so that I can get some face time with those solutions.
 
I am not an MS fanboi by any means, but I have run Hyper-V production VMs successfully for quite some time before migrating to VMware, so I do have some practical experience, not on the Enterprise a la Amazon.com level, but on the SMB level although deployed in Academia.

I think the whole argument is very much a "the right tool for the job" issue. There are circumstances under which Hyper-V is an adequate solution. However, MS made a bunch of assumptions about Hyper-V deployments which makes it at times difficult if you can't match the "implied prerequisites".

If you run a pure Windows environment, if you are already using System Center as part of your normal operations, if you run a well designed AD, then Hyper-V is in many cases the right tool for the job.

I switched to ESX + vCenter because I have a mixed OS environment, I don't use System Center, I don't run AD, and because of that Hyper-V was much more difficult to administer. VMware saves me time, and time is most precious of all.
 
Even as a traditional Microsoft User (20 years user/admin of every OS since DOS), I have recently become a Mac user. I have also started goofing with desktop Linux OS's in VMs, more recently (and some of it was forced, to be honest).

Because of my role at my job, part of my function is Dev and Customer Demo technologies. That's an awful wide bredth of products and solutions, and I won't bother oging into detail. Virtualization being the latest hot topic, and given my job responsibilities, I need to make sure that I've got all the major players on my radar.

Sometimes VMWare just isn't the best tool for the user, for one reason or another.
 
And nobody once mentioned Solaris Containers.
Has word finally gotten out to the real world that A) Containers are shitty B) Solaris 10 is buggy as fuck C) betting anything on Solaris 10 is Russian Roulette or D) All Of The Above?
Glory glory hallelujah.
 
yeah, I'm not even gonna touch that with a 10ft pole. I could use PowerVM Enterprise on our JS22s if I wanted a REAL HA platform, with REAL features. :) At least we're in agreement, there.
 
AreEss said:
And nobody once mentioned Solaris Containers.
Has word finally gotten out to the real world that A) Containers are shitty B) Solaris 10 is buggy as fuck C) betting anything on Solaris 10 is Russian Roulette or D) All Of The Above?
Glory glory hallelujah.
Click to expand...

Wait, they still make that? :confused:
 
XenServer proved useful. My only complaint is that the console to the VM is not assisted by the tools installer (which is for monitoring, only), and the input lag is very present. If you had VMs that were console only, it'd be fine. Mouse control is somewhat annoying.

I am pulling down Hyper-V Server 2k8 R2 now. Weird that it waas listed in Technet as being under applications, and not OS's or servers. Anyways, it sounds interesting, so I'll give that a go. ProxMox also looks interesting. I will have to check that out, next.

Thanks for the suggestions, guys. Keep them coming (although we may be nearing the end of the list, at this point).
 
lopoetve said:
Wait, they still make that? :confused:
Click to expand...

Yep. Now with Solaris 8 and 9 containers, which are mandatory for Solaris 8 and 9 support. Nothing like actively removing customers and revenue!
That's okay though, the price increases will make up for the losses there! (Apparently Oracle's going for the jugular on most customers already, demanding license audits and increasing maintenance/support on sun4u gear by >50%.)
 
im having issues with manging Hyper-V server. I haev built a Vista VM for management, and downloaded the Microsoft Hyper-V management MMC snap-in installer for Vista SP2 (which I am running), but the installer keeps telling me that the package is not for my OS, or some crap like that. The file is dated like a week ago, from Microsoft.

Google search yields results that say this was an issue on previous Vista versions (non-SP, and SP1, when tryign to install the management tool for a different OS revision level), but that's not the case for me. There's no Hyper-V management choice in the Administrative tools, and nothing available for Hyper-V under SART, either. Anyone know wtf? How to I administer the Hyper-V server?
 
sabregen said:
I'm a VCP, so when you say accept my overlord...they already own my ass. :D To answer your question though, I am looking for alternatives so that I can be aware of what else is hot and going on, in case I run into in the field, or in case VMWare isn't always the best answer for a client...so I know what the other options are, and so that I can get some face time with those solutions.
Click to expand...

I think there are 32bit and 64 bit installers. At least there was for the version I installed. Then again up until 45 seconds ago I thought I had installed SP2 for Vista. (I hadn't as I'm still on SP1)

Take a look at the bottom of this page, as there are some different downloads that may help.
 
AreEss said:
And nobody once mentioned Solaris Containers.
Has word finally gotten out to the real world that A) Containers are shitty B) Solaris 10 is buggy as fuck C) betting anything on Solaris 10 is Russian Roulette or D) All Of The Above?
Glory glory hallelujah.
Click to expand...

Not to thread crap here, however I'd like to know what would be a better OS than Solaris to run. I'm not running any production networks, however, it's an interest and I'd like to know what would be a good OS to learn.
 
cymon said:
Not to thread crap here, however I'd like to know what would be a better OS than Solaris to run. I'm not running any production networks, however, it's an interest and I'd like to know what would be a good OS to learn.
Click to expand...

Start a new thread.
 
no one can help with managing Hyper-V from VIsta using the MMC tool, and how to install it.
 
Negative. That's the problem (I guess). I've got Vista SP2 installed (x86 32 bit) and when I download and run that installer, I get:

"The update does not apply to your system."

I am running Vista SP2, as well. I have no idea what the problem is.

Update: just to be sure, I'm gonna nuke the install and start over (on the management VM, that is. It's running under Fusion on my Mac)
 
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My Hyper-V Manager still works after upgrading to SP2 this weekend. Maybe try the SP1 installer? I'm running Vista Ultimate 64bit.
 
Running 2x Dell R710s w/ Hyper-V Server w/ ~15 vms


No problems whatsoever.

The problem with ESX is $$$
 
Sabregen

I am assuming that you have a technet subscription.

For Hyper-V I suggest you take a look at Systems Center Virtual Machine Manager.
 
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