PVA or S-IPS

J

JackTheKnife

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 27, 2006
Messages
272
I decide to change my old CRT, but I have no idea to what kind of LCD :confused: I do a lot of graphics stuff for web/dtp and often play ET or FEAR Combat. Just heard about S-IPS (excellent choice for graphics) has ghosting on that kind of games.
 
S-IPS is definitely the way to go from a professional standpoint. It is able to reproduce colors better than the PVA panel.

In fact, I don't see any benefit for you to use the PVA panel. It lacks the color reproduction ability of the S-IPS and is not as fast as the run of the mill TN.

You're not going to find an LCD that can do everything like you can with a CRT... depends on what you care about more.
 
PVA sucks, especially for FEAR. The viewing angle makes the spot you are looking at darker, which means you have a hard time seeing the enemy in the shadows right in front of you.
 
I have owned two PVAs the first before I knew any better, the second courtesy of a Dell panel lottery on the 2007fp.

PVA sucks IMO. Viewing angles are horrendous. I now have a TN panel that is more usable. There is no place for PVA for me.

Want the best. Spend and get an IPS. Excellent color and importantly excellent uniformity with minimal angular shifting that makes PVA so annoying.

Want to save money on a fast gaming screen, get TN. Minimal tone shifting in the horizontal. Not so great in the vertical, but that is no so important.

Forget anything with VA in the panel type. It cost more than TN and is more annoying to use.

Very good S-IPS screens:
HP 2065 - 1600x1200
NEC 20WMGX2 1680x1050
 
IPS all the way.

What size and aspect ratio are you looking for in your monitor??
 
I don't know, that would be monitor of choice too, but Snowdog ended up with a PVA. I'm not sure what the chances are that you'll get a PVA and if there is anything you can do about it if you do.
 
Scyles said:
I don't know, that would be monitor of choice too, but Snowdog ended up with a PVA. I'm not sure what the chances are that you'll get a PVA and if there is anything you can do about it if you do.
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He got the PVA on the non-wide screen version. I was doing some researching on what people are getting before I bought my monitor, and as far as I can tell, up to this point no one on this forum as gotten a PVA screen for the 2007wfp when ordered in the US yet. Anyone who has seen otherwise can correct me.
 
i have a chance to choose personaly, so i'm gonna get IPS for sure...now what do you think about that model?
 
I've seen some VA panels that have no viewing angle problems. I don' see why everyone will say all VA panels have poor viewing angles..
 
Ivan® said:
i have a chance to choose personaly, so i'm gonna get IPS for sure...now what do you think about that model?
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If you can choose, I'm assuming you're buying it in person like at Costco or something. If you can pick it out yourself, then problems some people face (dead pixels, black light bleeding, etc) when ordering online can be eliminated. There were a lot of complaints banding in earlier revisions, but that has been fixed since this summer.

I personally love it, and so do most owners. I've done some light photoshopping and gaming, and a lot of web browsing and office work. This may not be important for some, but physically, it is a beautifully designed monitor.
 
There is one thing that really botheres me:

Is it easy on the eyes? I saw many monitors with perfect pictures, but at very high brightness.
I want a display that i can look as long as i want - usually many hours a day.

So can you tell me does this monitor have nice contrast and colours at some normal and pleasant brightness level?

That's the NO.1 thing for me to look at...
 
Ivan® said:
There is one thing that really botheres me:

Is it easy on the eyes? I saw many monitors with perfect pictures, but at very high brightness.
I want a display that i can look as long as i want - usually many hours a day.

So can you tell me does this monitor have nice contrast and colours at some normal and pleasant brightness level?

That's the NO.1 thing for me to look at...
Click to expand...
At the default brightness of 50, everything is fine. My friend's 1907wfp was so bright it hurt my eyes, so I know what you're talking about. I did some contrast editing from one of the nVidia utilities and turned it down a little, but even if I never did that, I would never have complained. I use my computer for many many hours a day after I get home, and my eyes don't tire at all.

Also, since you can shop for this monitor in person, you should know what it looks like, and could probably easily return it? I think you'll end up satisfied though.
 
vincentxweb said:
He got the PVA on the non-wide screen version. I was doing some researching on what people are getting before I bought my monitor, and as far as I can tell, up to this point no one on this forum as gotten a PVA screen for the 2007wfp when ordered in the US yet. Anyone who has seen otherwise can correct me.
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That is correct. About the time I ordered mine, no one had reported 2007fp PVA in North America yet. It had just been reported in Asia.

My advice get a 2007wfp quick, I believe the 2007wfp will be in the USA soon with PVA.

It is crazy the way Dell does buisness with the panel swapping nonsense.
 
For your information, the panel technology went another level, renamed to S-IPS, S-PVA, and P-MVA. That includes, faster response time, deeper blacks, better viewing angles.

Yes, I pick S-IPS over PVA, but PVA is not the same as S-PVA. S-IPS have faster reponse time, 8-bit, and have the best viewing angles to-date.

But, there other variables you have to account for, it is the electronics that uses the panel technology. Different manufacturers use different electronics which determine the panel technology outcome. Be careful, there are so many LCD monitors not telling what panel technology they're using, you really have to investigate. Your opinions should be determine on the LCD monitor overall, not the panel technology itself (with the new generation now).

This new generation now, S-IPS, S-PVA, and P-MVA are very close to each other in specifications. They all have faster response time (overdrive), better viewing angles close to 180 degrees, 8-bit 16.7 millions colors, and better contrast 1:1000 average (better black levels).

In my opinion, S-IPS stands out is their viewing angles are superb and probably better colors too.

Benchmark of many LCD monitors with different panel technology:
http://www.behardware.com/articles/619-1/updated-survey-13-lcd-20-5-6-8-16-ms.html

*This should give you a clear picture of the differences. You will notice some LCD monitors with the same panel technology and different electronics can change the outcome.

Buyer's Guide:
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=1745344
 
to add to what die said about generations, IPS is up to AS-IPS (NEC 20WMGX2) and early and mid next year NEC will be coming out with newer LCDs with the even newer A-TW-IPS or something.
 
No one mentioned it yet--large screen PVAs often have input lag. That's a complete deal breaker right there.
 
DieHardcc said:
This new generation now, S-IPS, S-PVA, and P-MVA are very close to each other in specifications. They all have faster response time (overdrive), better viewing angles close to 180 degrees, 8-bit 16.7 millions colors, and better contrast 1:1000 average (better black levels).

In my opinion, S-IPS stands out is their viewing angles are superb and probably better colors too.
Click to expand...

VA panels have better contrast ratios are just as good viewing angles as IPS panels. Its hard to say which is better as both of the panel types in my opinion are a little on the Bright side.
 
I have a Sony S-PVA 32" LCD TV and for colours if you sit directly in front of it it matches any S IPS monitor I have seen really. It does have better blacks but they still stink compared to CRT:s so I am not sure that is an issue really. If you go LCD you get shitty blacks whatever you do just more or less. You get used to it though if you aren´t watching movies or playing games at dark lol.

The S-PVA I have definiatly have input lagg. Not optimum for fps but I am no professional player and I don´t care if I get one headshot less :rolleyes: But S-IPS would surely be a bit better there. Also I do have a high end LCD TV so maybe cheaper S-PVA monitors have worse colours? This have some Sony technology WCG incorporated. I have seen the cheaper Sony model it don´t have the same colours...

I can play about every single game on it.

S-IPS or S-PVA I think is the best options. TN have to crappy colours. As for viewing angles I don´t really care I always sit in front of the monitor :)
 
Shottah_king said:
VA panels have better contrast ratios are just as good viewing angles as IPS panels. Its hard to say which is better as both of the panel types in my opinion are a little on the Bright side.
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VA panels have better contrast ratios (though the dynamic contrast of the NEC gives some combat there).
But, when it comes to viewing angles, there is no contest really. Even TN panels have better viewing angles then VA's when it comes to normal operating conditions. VA's are better then TN's at extreme angles, but thats it.

VA's and viewing angle:
Straight on view = stronger colors and loss of detail
Straight on view close to screen = makes you see edges in an angle, and they will become more detailed, but with washed out colors.
A couple of degrees off axis: more detail, brighter with weaker colors.
 
Tamlin_WSGF said:
VA's and viewing angle:
Straight on view = stronger colors and loss of detail
Straight on view close to screen = makes you see edges in an angle, and they will become more detailed, but with washed out colors.
A couple of degrees off axis: more detail, brighter with weaker colors.
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I see absolutely none of that with my 970P.
 
Having owned S-PVA and PVA I also challenge a contrast number that is point measured. The only reason PVA has a higher measured contrast is because as Tamlin points out, directly centered they block light. Not just for black, but throught the whole color range. The trouble is if you measured the contrast off axis a bit, it would plummet. While It might be slightly lower on an S-IPS, it would stay more consistent.

This also reflects how samsung artificially pumps up the "viewing angle" they measure at a contrast of 5. Yes 5, how insane is that? Panel contrast measured as direct point source 800 but viewing angle contrast 5. This is a farce. What they should do is measure when the contrast falls to half. But then that would give a real world numbr to work with, but then the truth about PVA would be revealed. Off axis even 10 degrees it has probably lost half its contrast.

I would much rather start out with a slightly lower contrast, that stayed more consistent. And that is what it does on IPS. To the original poster. If you want any kind of consistent screen experience get a S-IPS screen. People have been incredible happy with the HP2065.

Here is my screen shot using the same source Tamlin showed, not as dramatic since this image was shot with the camea centered, located at a normal seating position to show somewhat the experience you get when you sit centered on a PVA screen. This is the kind of tone shifting you get from center to side when your centered behind a shift PVA screen.
BTW here is the screen specs, 180 degree viewing angles. Perfection?
LTM201U1 1600?~1200 S-PVA 16.7M 300 700-1000:1 180 / 180

Not! This is the shifting you get when you are perfectly centered behind PVA. TN is better than this:
65452628.TGQ59HS0.pvaToneShift.jpg


If you are a discerning user, avoid PVA like the plague. These screens are harsh and eye fatiguing, have the worse horizontal viewing angle tone shifts of all technologies, have the worse input lags for playing games. They put up the most phoney marketing numbers to pump stats. To me it there shouldn't be a S-IPS vs PVA question in anyones mind, they just aren't in the same class. PVA vs TN maybe and even then TN would win a big chunk of the time.
 
PoweredBySoy said:
I see absolutely none of that with my 970P.
Click to expand...

Thats why I said not all VA Panels have poor viewing angles. I know for a fact some Samsung VA panels have poor horizontal viewing angles because I owned a LCD monitor which did. But I also owned, and seen other VA panels in electronic shop and seen that some VA panels have absolutely no loss of image when viewing them almost sideways.. I still say VA panels have equal image quality to IPS panels it just depends on the manufacturer etc.
 
Shottah_king said:
Thats why I said not all VA Panels have poor viewing angles. I know for a fact some Samsung VA panels have poor horizontal viewing angles because I owned a LCD monitor which did. But I also owned, and seen other VA panels in electronic shop and seen that some VA panels have absolutely no loss of image when viewing them almost sideways.. I still say VA panels have equal image quality to IPS panels it just depends on the manufacturer etc.
Click to expand...

Then name the panel that is the exception. Even the worse IPS has better viewing angle response than the best VA panels.
 
I would recommend a P-MVA panel over the S-PVAs. They dont lose detail when looking directly at dark areas, have less video / panel noise and the new "6ms" 24" panels (Benq / Acer) are lower input lag than the S-PVAs by a long shot. Good contrast too.

S-IPS has its place, especially if you value minimum color shift at angles, and has a slight premium in price.
 
So to put these opinions to the test:

Newegg has these two panels on sale right now:
Sony 23" S-IPS panel, great reviews and $749: Sony 23"

Benq 24" P-MVA panel...getting great reviews, costs $799: Benq 24"

Now I know both panels have differing inputs and stands, etc. But just based on the actual display, what would you guys pick? Go 1" bigger for the P-MVA or the Sony S-IPS?

Just curious. :D
 
DieHardcc said:
Wait a minute, all LCD monitors (panel technology) lag, look at the benchmark:
http://www.behardware.com/articles/632-2/lcds-images-delayed-compared-to-crts-yes.html
Click to expand...
You're right, thanks for the link. Because of this test, where the Dell IPS beat the Samsung PVA by 33ms, ~40ms, and 54ms of input lag, I thought IPSs are basically just as fast as CRTs. Based on this new data, either the 3007WFP is really good or the 244T is really bad.


PoweredBySoy said:
Samsung S-PVA panels > all.
Click to expand...
Wrong; the 244T has sucky input lag versus the 3007WFP.
 
PoweredBySoy said:
I see absolutely none of that with my 970P.
Click to expand...

Take a picture of your screen with this
template from a 5 degrees angle in full screen and I'll prove it to you. :)
Its a matter of physics and relates to ALL PVA panels. Saying that it doesn't excist is denying laws of physics. Its simply how the PVA matrices are build and you cannot calibrate it away.

Here is how it would look on a S-IPS@5 degrees (3007WFP), if you wish to have any grounds of comparison:
05-deg.jpg
 
Shottah_king said:
Thats why I said not all VA Panels have poor viewing angles. I know for a fact some Samsung VA panels have poor horizontal viewing angles because I owned a LCD monitor which did. But I also owned, and seen other VA panels in electronic shop and seen that some VA panels have absolutely no loss of image when viewing them almost sideways.. I still say VA panels have equal image quality to IPS panels it just depends on the manufacturer etc.
Click to expand...

Take another look at Snowdogs post. Even at center view you get image degration due to the sides being viewed as an angle. This happens to ALL PVA panels (though more evident in the larger then the smaller panels due to larger angels). I'm getting a bit tired of stating the this, but here goes: ITS PHYSICAL DUE TO CRYSTAL ALLIGMENT, if it shouldn't be on a panel, its no longer a PVA or S-PVA panel. People can argue their heads off and deny the laws of physics, but it will still be there. Unless Samsung changes the crystal alligment in their panels, the viewing angle problems will still be there no matter where they put the panel and what scalers and interlacers they attach to it...
 
Tamlin_WSGF said:
Here is how it would look on a S-IPS@5 degrees (3007WFP), if you wish to have any grounds of comparison:
Click to expand...

Physics and crystal alignments aside, what I'm trying to say is that if there is any sort of degradation due to viewing angle on my Samsung, I don't notice it. Nor does it bother me during my normal viewing. And I use my screen for all sorts of photography post-processing.

Of course I can make the colors and contrast shift if I go to extreme angles. But that's so far out of normal usage I don't even care.

If I feel up to entertaining this any more, I'll take some screen shots of that template later tonight when it's dark - one from straight on and one at a slight angle. Although, comparing my screenshot to your screenshot will have no meaning what so ever - considering the factors of monitor calibration, digital cameras, ambient light, etc....
 
PoweredBySoy said:
Physics and crystal alignments aside, what I'm trying to say is that if there is any sort of degradation due to viewing angle on my Samsung, I don't notice it. Nor does it bother me during my normal viewing. And I use my screen for all sorts of photography post-processing.

Of course I can make the colors and contrast shift if I go to extreme angles. But that's so far out of normal usage I don't even care.

If I feel up to entertaining this any more, I'll take some screen shots of that template later tonight when it's dark - one from straight on and one at a slight angle. Although, comparing my screenshot to your screenshot will have no meaning what so ever - considering the factors of monitor calibration, digital cameras, ambient light, etc....
Click to expand...

Please do. :) Regardless of monitor calibration, camera, ambient light etc, the tests are not to compare picture quality, but gamma shifts from slight angles. Thats the beauty of such test. It doesn't matter what your initial setting is, what camera you use or what lightning that is in the room. There will still be gamma shift due to viewing angles on S-PVA and no gamma shift on S-IPS (as shown with the comparison picture).
 
Having seen that on my 32" KDL32V2000 monitor. (hard to know what display type but it says S-PVA on some).

I don´t see what is the issue if it´s used as a computer monitor? I can look until I am blind not getting that when sitting in front of the computer ;) If I sway to the sides to the extreme I can see it but who does that? Maybe if you are playing with the Wii control it may be an issue ;)

Input lagg is more of an issue but that is no show stopper either. Who cares if you get one headshot less. If so you shouldn´t be running any LCD really.

Going from a CRT to a LCD there is a major difference but I am not sure debating vs S-IPS or S-PVA make much difference...

I would say it´s about as much difference as from a Trinitron to a Diamondtron monitor. Just about none.

Compared to my LCD you do loose detail in the blacks but that is true on all LCD:s. Unless you turn up the brightness so you don´t have any black anymore. Contrast is no match for my Philips 202P40. Colours is actually a match which surprised me tons.
 
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