Salary negotiation for new job? Need advice.

rpeters83

rpeters83

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Jan 11, 2009
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Here's my situation. I'm currently making 70k as a web developer. The commute is great and I get a lot of vacation time. The only problem is I'm bored most of the time - I want a challenge.

I have a company who is most likely going to offer me a senior level web developer (asp.net/sql/ajax, etc), but they're 1.5 hours away. The benefits are about the same but I'd have about half the vacation time. I would be working from home most of the time, but the goal would be to eventually move closer to the area. We were looking to move anyway, but in a year or so from now, so this would move us up schedule.

Given my current salary and the implications of taking this new job, how much should I negotiate for? 30% increase? 40%? Is it fair to say that the low-to-mid 90k range would be considerable enough to go through with this? Thoughts? Thanks.
 
I think the #1 question in this economy is: Which job is more secure? I'd take a lower paying job with job security over a much higher paying one with no job security any day.
Also, I don't think you're going to get a 90-100k offer unless you live in a large metro area, or you're in charge of a large web shop. I'm pretty sure most web developer positions top out somewhere in the low-mid 80's.
 
You're pretty ballsy to risk a solid job now for a potentially higher paying one that isn't as solid. Then again, I'm in the same boat you are only in networking ;)

I'd say you'd better make darn sure that the new job pans out before you give notice to your old one! Just ask yourself what it's worth to give up the short commute and vacation time. Those are two pretty solid benefits for your current company.
 
maw said:
I think the #1 question in this economy is: Which job is more secure? I'd take a lower paying job with job security over a much higher paying one with no job security any day.
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Anybody would. But what job has no job security?

IceWeasel said:
You're pretty ballsy to risk a solid job now for a potentially higher paying one that isn't as solid.
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I must have missed something; where does rpeters83 say that the new position isn't "as solid"?

While working at home, I don't think you're going to be very valuable to the company. You can grind through work, but you're not going to be too effective working with others, and you're not going to be able to do very much management. Going to design meetings is going to be hard.

You might think of asking about relocation benefits. If the company can help you move, then that's a lot less for you to worry about and pay for when the time comes. You're not forthcoming about the timing, but if you can move with the acceptance of the position, then that's better for everybody because it helps you get started socially with your new co-workers and company.
 
anytime you start a new job you're the "new guy", hence it's not as solid, you don't have as much seniority...etc
 
Unless there's an egregious performance problem, the company is not likely to fire someone who's just been hired because the recruitment and hiring processes are very expensive. Getting the company to pay for relocation adds to this expense.
 
mikeblas said:
Unless there's an egregious performance problem, the company is not likely to fire someone who's just been hired because the recruitment and hiring processes are very expensive. Getting the company to pay for relocation adds to this expense.
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This is what i thought back in 2000. I left a pretty stable job for a much higher paying one with a hot company who showered me with bonuses and incentives and paid for my moving expenses. Three months later, the company went under and I was out of a job in a town I knew little about...
All I'm saying is that if his current position is pretty secure, this is not the type of economic climate that would encourage risk. I'd make damn sure the new position is solid.
 
Same thing could happen at the current company, couldn't it? Are you just saying that I'm being too kind to the OP by assuming that he's researched the company and its financial position? This is, after all, one of the things the interviewers are expecting when they ask if you have any questions for them during the interview process.

If the OP hasn't done this, then worrying about a salary negotiation is premature. Perhaps interviewing was premature, too.

Point is, we've got no reason to know if your assumption that the new, target company has no job security applies here. The OP should know if it does or not, since he's interviewed there and considering a coming offer; I don't think he'd bother interviewing if his research told him that the company was weak or wobbly.
 
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Can you say with confidence that your new job is solid?
 
Why not just bring your concern for a challenge to your current employer?

Honestly though, I just did this but in reverse. I left for a higher paying job because the company I was with that laying people off left and right + furloughs.

Closer commute, more pay, and a wonderful company on the books but I still need to worry as the new person.

it's something you need to figure out for yourself if it's worth it or not. There is more than just the money you need to worry about.

Can you handle the working from home most of the time?
Can you handle the fact that you are low man on the pole?
Can you survive if it doesn't work out while you try to find yet another job?

least IMO, if you can deal with those, it isn't worth your time unless you can make 25-30% more.

Overall you just need to be prepared mentally to take the chance at everything going to shit.
 
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1. there is NO SUCH THING AS JOB SECURITY
2. there is NO SUCH THING AS JOB SECURITY
3. Never negotiate your new salary against your current one; always have them make an offer, then work from there. If you throw them a number, it could be much less than what they originally were going to pay. If they want to base your new salary off your old one, I would say look for another company because they don't believe in paying you what you're worth

Bigbacon said:
Why not just bring your concern for a challenge to your current employer?
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This is solid advice. See how they respond. If they can't provide what you want, then you need to start looking for other another employer. Don't say anything further until you get an offer letter with the new company. Once you get an offer, speak with your manager about how you've found another job that is more challenging (and a pay increase). Most of the time they will attempt to match or beat the offer unless it's way up there. Be prepared for them to not make an offer though, so don't bluff them or you may find yourself unemployed.

I negotiated a 45% pay increase at one of my jobs and didn't have to leave, so it can happen.

Good luck on your endeavor.
 
ShagnWagn said:
1. there is NO SUCH THING AS JOB SECURITY
2. there is NO SUCH THING AS JOB SECURITY
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Right. There's no such thing as job security at the new job, and no such thing as job security at the old job, too.

Bigbacon said:
least IMO, if you can deal with those, it isn't worth your time unless you can make 25-30% more.
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I'm not sure I can agree with this. Moving to a job with the same salary (or nearly the same salary) can be beneficial if there's a better chance for growth, better benefits, or just a more acceptable or compatible work environment.
 
how about annoying your current boss until they give you a challenge? Toss up some ideas of your own, propose a new project, and make sure you get to be project-lead for it.

Once you prove your skills as a project-lead / senior dev, a salary increase shouldnt be too hard to get, and seriously, you will hate a 1,5 hour commute
 
DrFreeze said:
how about annoying your current boss until they give you a challenge? Toss up some ideas of your own, propose a new project, and make sure you get to be project-lead for it.

Once you prove your skills as a project-lead / senior dev, a salary increase shouldnt be too hard to get, and seriously, you will hate a 1,5 hour commute
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The issue here is that "a challenge" is usually code for "more of the same work" to some bosses. Handing me another 10 hours a week of work isn't "a challenge", it's you trying to get more of the same done in a single week.

He wants a challenge, which will likely mean he wants something shaken up... if the company only has one major product to work on there isn't a lot of flexibility in this. With the company I'm working for I can't just walk up to the boss and say "Hey, my job is boring, can you switch me to some non-existant project?" I have one job, it's what I was hired to do and I do it well. If I'm bored that's my problem and my problem alone--the boss doesn't have control over what I work on, the business has needs and they have to be met.
 
With regard to the job security thing...over here in the UK, there's usually a probation period (often for the first 3 months) where they can get rid of you with zero notice, for any reason (even if it's just that your boss doesn't like your hair) and with no repercussions; however, once you pass that point, they have all sorts of legal obligations on the employer, like verbal warning -> written warning -> negotiation -> fired, which can take no less than 3 months or something like that.

That's why in the UK, a new job is inherently less secure than an existing job by default. I'd hazard a guess that it's different state-by-state across the water.

Just a little geographical edumacation for y'all :)

In terms of the OP, don't try to think of it in terms of what % increase you can get. Have a look at the job, and compare it to what you're doing now - ask yourself whether the new job is so much better than the old one that you'd happily live with the same take-home pay. Then think about your additional expenses (if any) for the new job - if you're working from home, for example, that might affect your home insurance premiums. Add that on to your current salary, along with how much you think you'd need to have in savings over the first 3 months or so in case they decide that they can't afford another developer after all, and add that it. Next, work out the drop in holiday as a percentage of your working year, and add that percentage on. Bingo, you've got a floor for your negotiations. The key is to make absolutely sure that you've factored in everything, so that you don't get an increase in salary which, once all is said and done, actually ends up as a net reduction in overall value.

If you really want the job, ask for another 10% on top of that and see if they try to negotiate you down. If you're not bothered, ask for a 20% increase. If you find anything out about the job that is a dealbreaker and they're not going to move, stick another 30% - 40% on it (never say "no" - just price yourself out...there's always an outside chance they'll go for it). Any more than that, and they'll likely take one look at your previous salary and laugh themselves off their chairs.
 
hey thanks for the replies.

I've already came to my current employer and expressed my concerns over the lack of work here. Basically, we're a small marketing firm and there's not too much web work coming in. I feel I can be used more effectively in another company such as the one I interviewed for.

As far as driving, it's less of a concern since it's working with a guy I knew from HS and we can actually carpool.

The question really is just about salary and how much I can be worth there. They were just acquired by a larger company and they write software used throughout the country and some parts of the world, so it doesnt look like they're going out of business soon!

I'm thinking 90 or above will be good for me, which about a 28% increase.
 
In the US, at will employment means that, without a contract showing the duration of employment, the employer can terminate the employee at any time even without cause. There are some exceptions, but that law applies to all states.
 
rpeters83 said:
The question really is just about salary and how much I can be worth there. They were just acquired by a larger company and they write software used throughout the country and some parts of the world, so it doesnt look like they're going out of business soon!

I'm thinking 90 or above will be good for me, which about a 28% increase.
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What do you know about the new company?
You said you would be hired into a senior position. Who would your team be? How will you be able to effectively interact with them from home?

Working at home is great if you manage to be productive, but you are also the guy who's on payroll and never there. When the time comes to make cuts, then that invisible guy is usually easy to let go.

I'll be honest, if you manage to pull 90+ in the current economy considering that there are approximately 649027291 developers in India out of a job willing to work for pennies, more power to you.

I agree with someone else who said it's expensive to hire someone and then fire them, but it's even more expensive to keep that person on payroll when you really can't afford to do that.

Personally I would rather work less, for less money, than work more, for more money. I wouldn't change into a job that cuts my vacation time in half, even if they pay more, but different people have different needs.

:LJ: said:
The key is to make absolutely sure that you've factored in everything, so that you don't get an increase in salary which, once all is said and done, actually ends up as a net reduction in overall value.
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Along those lines it's also important to consider in which tax bracket you will be put. You may pull 90, but you may end up being taxed 5k more (I am just making this up) because you ended up in the higher bracket.

EDIT:
Also, commute. They may find that working at home really doesn't work for senior staff, then you are faced with 3 hours per day you spend in a car. There is opportunity cost associated with that, you are not making money, you are burning gas, increasing risk, and are essentially are wasting time. Any increase in salary needs to reflect that. Say you are working 10 hours at your current job (including commute), in the new job it will be 13 hours, effectively increasing your time commitment to work related time spent by 30%. It's easy to see just the take home cash on the paycheck, but rather complex to consider all factors.

Is property tax higher if you move closer to your new work? Sales tax? etc. etc.
 
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Turns out i was wrong about the vacation time. I only get 4 days less than my current employer, and it starts from day 1. So that makes me happy. I also would earn more for each year with the company.

Their last guy for this position worked remotely from across the country and was flown in for larger projects. He was on the team for 5 years before he left apparently. I believe he was let go due to performance issues (i.e., sloppy developer).

I would be driving up there roughly once every 2 weeks on average. Also, i'm not actually managing a team, I'm bringing my experience and knowledge of the framework for their projects.

The job is in the next state, so we may just move closer to the state but still in our current one, which would be nice for us, since we love where we live right now but don't want to move to another state.

Again, i really appreciate the input fellas. Thanks.
 
Wow this is a hard one. As everyone has pretty much pointed out there is a lot more that goes into this other than just the money.

One factor that I did not see anyone else point out (I skimmed what I could) was the factor of your significant other. What is her employment currently like? Will she have a job when/if you move closer? Will she stay at her same job? How does she feel about this? In this economy I would stay with something that is more solid, for a bit less money that wasnt necessarily challenging at this time. However, I have learned to play it a bit cautious because I have been in the same position where a company offers me more money to do something for them only to let me go less than a year later.

From the information that you have given the position seems pretty solid for both places with the benefit that the new place will be offering you more money. In the negotiation though there is no guarantee that they will give you what you are looking for. They may come back with a bit less and then the question is, will the difference in pay, drive, etc be worth it for the actual change (i.e. Cost Benefit Analysis).

Say you stay at your current position. Right now you are a two income family that makes solid money together, live close to work and like the area you live in. The position may not be as challenging but you can always find ways to "spruce" things up a bit, you just have to look and spend some time thinking. This is a solid bet because you have been doing it for some time and have seniority with the company making you a larger asset should the **** hit the fan.

Say you take the new position and move.... You are making more money but have a large commute. Commute time will cut into what used to be your "family time" and can cause problems in such areas. Say that you move closer to the new job, but your significant other does not have a solid lead on a position. Suddenly you have gone from a two solid income family, to a one solid income family. This is where all the other things like local taxes, change in tax bracket, new housing costs, etc come into play. With the economy the way it is right now it could take your significant other upwards of 8 months to find a reliable position, and that is not even counting one that pays the same as they are making right now?! Are you financially prepared for that? Do you have enough in savings to cover all your overhead costs (mortgage, utilities, medical, etc) for that time while they come back up to what you once were making together?

Take my position for example... I am a web developer for a government agency, work is "slow" at best but with our new CIO we are trying to change things up a bit and bring more interactivity to our branch of the judiciary. I am the Web Services Manger with a single Webmaster under my wing. We just finished a COMPLETE redesign of our website and we are now working on other smaller projects. I dont make near what you make but I have happy with my salary as I have a "stable" position that challenges me when I need it to. My wife is a hairstylist in her home town where she grew up, she knows a lot of people here and her clientele is quite large (hell she makes quite a bit more than I do even after taxes). Needless to say we live comfortably in our new house that is a 10 minute walk for both of us to our offices. Combined we have a nice income that covers what we need, have careers that allow us to pretty much take time when we want to (with mine being paid vacation) and live in a very nice area. However, shortly after I took this position I was offered another, higher paying position in another state (position I had applied for after finishing my masters). After weighing the costs of the move, the increase in my salary, cost of living increase, etc we figured that for her to build her clientele back to its current position it would take upwards of 2yrs. That would be 2yrs of me being the primary bread winner and having to pay for all these new increases in living while still making more money. This all happened before the economy took a ****. We decided to do a little exercise the other night and see how these economic times would have effected us had we made the move. Consensus was that had we made the move we would more than likely be filing for bankruptcy right now because while at that time we would have been able to afford what was happening, with the economic downturn and how it has effected her position/clientele we would be in the hole quite a bit of money every month, even with planning and saving for the 2yr time frame to rebuild her business.

Granted our position is a little different but the point of what I am saying is to make sure that you have taken all accounts into reasoning BEFORE the decision is made.
 
MindChild said:
Work remotely? Is there any other positions available?
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While I can work remotely, it's much more efficient for me to work at the office. In my case, the type of information I work with (government) is all open to public disclosure, so any machine that connects to the network or has work files stored on it is susceptible to search and seizure, including my personal home computer if I happen to store any work files on it. The only way to safely do any work from home is through Remote access to my office PC via Citrix, which can be slow connection-wise and inefficient since I can't take full advantage of the quad-core triple monitor setup I have physically setup at the office. I estimate that I get stuff done 4X faster when in front of my office PC vs. connecting to it remotely.
 
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sorry, forgot to update on the post.

I eventually declined the position. He could only offer my 2K more than what I'm making now and I'd have to move 1.5 hours away to be closer to the company. So...that sucks.

Even if he would let me work from home and 10K more (which he didn't know if he could get anyway), I still felt it wasn't worth it to be able to actually go in and work with people each day, only 10 minutes from my house...not to mention 10 days less PTO!

Thanks for all the input though. Really appreciated. Thanks.
 
rpeters83 said:
sorry, forgot to update on the post.

I eventually declined the position. He could only offer my 2K more than what I'm making now and I'd have to move 1.5 hours away to be closer to the company. So...that sucks.

Even if he would let me work from home and 10K more (which he didn't know if he could get anyway), I still felt it wasn't worth it to be able to actually go in and work with people each day, only 10 minutes from my house...not to mention 10 days less PTO!

Thanks for all the input though. Really appreciated. Thanks.
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90K is a really high salary for today's economy. When I went in to accept my current position (about 2 years ago), they try to lower my salary by 3K less then what I have ask for. That just to show that companies aren't willing to dish out the big salary anymore.
 
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Web_Developer/Salary
90K seems like a lot for a web developer

also isnt it hard to find a "challenging" tech job thats not going to put you through tons of hours of unpaid overtime? I'll take slow and boring at times any day, even a pay cut if it means I get to go home at 5 everyday and not have to think about my job when I'm not there
 
eon said:
also isnt it hard to find a "challenging" tech job thats not going to put you through tons of hours of unpaid overtime?
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There's a difference between being challenged and simply being overworked. Being required to complete 45 mindless 15-minute tasks every day is not a challenge, it's just a high workload.
 
yes I know there's a difference and that there's challenging jobs that dont overwork you but I would guess they arent very common
 
eon said:
also isnt it hard to find a "challenging" tech job thats not going to put you through tons of hours of unpaid overtime? I'll take slow and boring at times any day, even a pay cut if it means I get to go home at 5 everyday and not have to think about my job when I'm not there
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I hear ya. I've been there already with the tech job that promised to be challenging. It turns out challenging meant spending most of my working hours dealing with completely clueless end-users and arrogant marketing guys in addition to lots of unpaid weekends running network cables through dusty ceiling ducts or testing backup tapes. I finally drew the line when people started dropping off their personal home PCs for me to fix without so much as a please or thank you.

I'm at the age now where spending time with my family is a lot more important to me so I'm totally happy with the web dev job I have today. It pays a hell of a lot more and I never have to work past 5 p.m. or weekends. I get to set my own pace and think though my own solutions to problems. I especially like working on a project for a few weeks, then coast for a few weeks until another project comes along. The slow times give me plenty of opportunity to recharge, to learn new stuff, and to keep up with industry trends.
 
I don't think our economy is in the condition for professionals to seek challenges. I would advise you to keep your current job if you believe it is secure.
 
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