server for my dads small business, simply accounting

E

[evo]

Gawd
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Dec 4, 2000
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My dad has asked me for a bit of help in that he needs a new slew of PC's at his business.

This is a small business that uses 5 pcs, one of which simply hosts the simply accounting database. I replace these PC's pretty much every 18 months, and im thinking this time I should look into getting some sort of small five server for the 5th, which will simply be responsible for hosting the simply accounting database for the other four.

Am i thinking right? What would I look for in this sort of machine? I'd be looking for dual hard drives at least, as I want to move their backup from what they are using now to just having the machine do it overnight, every night.

Otherwise, im a little lost, so i'm turning to the horde for some insight. I'm unsure about what sort of power and ram would be needed for this relatively mundane task, my main concern being that i'd be looking for stability and backup functions. Hopefully, I could also find a way to give this one LAN access, whilst restricting it from the LAN.
 
Small Business Server 2008 would fit this perfectly.
A dell T310 (Core 2 Duo, 8gb ram, 2x 250gb hard drives) would cost maybe $600 with a 3yr warranty - hardware wise :)
Raid 1 for the hard drives and something simple like a external esata drive + robocopy for a nightly backup. I have several offices with this setup and it works great!
 
If you want to go cheaper, Something like a DL320 would fit this perfectly.

small 1u build. will do 8gb of ram, 2x sata drives. I have had no issues using mine for similar setups before.
 
Does he need a tower server or rack server ?

Does he have a existing rack with any equipment ? How are you planning to back up the server ? Extra USB drives ? simply accounting server DOES NOT need that much power so you don't need a mega zillion core with mega zillion gigs of ram.
 
thanks for the input guys.

to answer some questions..

No rack equipment as we have been using pc's exclusively without any server for the last several years

Current backup is just a bunch of USB keys labeled for the days of the week. this means every night the receptionist has to run the backup program which has been setup to dupe the SA database onto the keys. I'd much rather a automated system to either a second hard drive or an external. and backing up the entire server would be a huge leap forward if anything did happen.

otherwise, this is something that will sit, running, 24/7 with no use besides the accountant coming in once a month to do his thing. The other PC's are for the two business owners to lookup pricing and inventory, the receptionist to ensure everything goes where it should, and the parts guy to place orders etc.

Daily backup is very important as we've had the SA database go corrupt before and its a nightmare.
 
[evo];1037745813 said:
thanks for the input guys.

to answer some questions..

No rack equipment as we have been using pc's exclusively without any server for the last several years

Current backup is just a bunch of USB keys labeled for the days of the week. this means every night the receptionist has to run the backup program which has been setup to dupe the SA database onto the keys. I'd much rather a automated system to either a second hard drive or an external. and backing up the entire server would be a huge leap forward if anything did happen.

otherwise, this is something that will sit, running, 24/7 with no use besides the accountant coming in once a month to do his thing. The other PC's are for the two business owners to lookup pricing and inventory, the receptionist to ensure everything goes where it should, and the parts guy to place orders etc.

Daily backup is very important as we've had the SA database go corrupt before and its a nightmare.
Click to expand...

get a few external 500 gig usb drives maybe 2-3 of them setup the server to back up 2-3 days week etc etc etc, if data is very important get 5 drives one per day of week, etc etc.

Remember Ram is cheap right now BUT TONS of it :) id start looking into a dell server.
 
Yeah you could do a couple USB drives. Also, look into an offsite over the internet backup company, most are reasonbly priced, and they will ship you DVD's overnight or other ways for recovery.
 
This might be a strange question, but why are you replacing the PCs every 18 months? I used to get 3 year onsite warranties for the machines I was buying for clients so that they would spend less money. Because that warranty is less than a whole new machine.

As for what you asked about, does the "Simply Accounting" program run on Windows 2008 Server? If so, I would go that way. Just keep the server under warranty.

Using cheap USB drives for backup is an easy and cheap way to go to get decent backups of the server. Combine it with something like a Carbonite, Mozy, BackBlaze, etc for a complete backup solution. I don't know how much data you are needing to back up but this would give you best of both worlds a local easily accessable backup, and an online backup in case the building burns down or whatever.
 
With the speed of hardware nowadays, if you get a decent machine now(dual/quad core, 4-8gb ram), it should not have any problems lasting over 2 years in a business environment. I have several old P4/2gb ram Gateway PCs out on my plant floor that have survived 120F summers for the past 3-4 years. They only run one application, but they run 24/7 and have no speed issues.

As for the server, the above mentioned ideas are all good. A Dell server with SBS2008, Raid 1 hard drives, 8gb+ ram(probably not even needed for your small SA database), and 3+ 500gb USB hard drives for backup.

An online backup is always a good solution on top of your physical backup if your dad wants to swing the extra monthly charge. But with Raid 1, and multiple USBHD backups, the only way you are going to lose data is if you leave all 3 USBHd in the building and it burns.

Do you have any other specific questions?
 
I have set up a few clients with these. http://www.qnap.com/USEng/pro_detail_feature.asp?p_id=182

They take up no space, run cool and quiet, RAID1, USB hardrive backup, gigalan, remote, folder permissions via user/pass-so any OS will work (*note: Server 2008 requires logon from XP Pro, Vista Pro/Ultimate, or Win7 Pro/////Do the workstations meet this requirement?).

Is it used multiuser? Or are single files used one at a time? If multiuser you will also need to check if just the SA data can be accessed via a file server or if hosting computer needs the database manager running on it.

Cheers!
 
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Dell T110, Raid 1 with 2 SATA Drives (or SAS if you can afford). 3 year warranty make sure to add sata protection.

8GB memory, Quad Xeon, and Server 2008 Foundation Edition.

Cost will be low and a great machine. No NAS go with this.

For backup, I would rotate external hard drives for built in Windows Backup (full image) and suppliment with Online Backup.

Let me know if you need more details.
 
While upgrading to an SBS/Server2008 environment is great, it also may be either above budget or possibly even simply too much for a small five user node.

Windows Home Server is a pretty nifty product. You can find OEM built machines for relatively inexpensive, or build your own and buy the OS license for cheap as well.

It'll give you file-level redundancy across multiple drives for your important data, and will take care of managing backups of your other workstations presuming you set everything up and have enough disk space on the Home Server machine - which with 2TB drives costing less than $80 you should be able to have quite a bit of space for not very much money.

Combined with some form of offsite backup - I recommend BackBlaze - you could get yourself to a better place with regards to data redundancy. Remember kids, RAID is not backup. RAID is redundancy; it protects against drive failure and nothing else. It won't help if your Dad accidentally purges all the accounting files for 2010 when he meant to do it for 2007; backups will. So get backups, and preferably get them off-site!
 
The last two posts are probably the most correct fit for what you are looking to do.

+1 to both. BTW QNAP NAS devices rock.
 
I like NAS devices, but what happens if you need to install a program like QB Database manager or some other application. Now you have to load the service up another machine making that the server.

I try to have a dedicate server. I admit for some small offices i do a win 7 machine with unlimited online backup
 
ok guys, thanks for all the help. I'll be going with a tower server, with two 500gb hard drives, and probably a few externals as well. The plan is to have one main drive, and the 2nd just a mirror of the first backed up every night.

Ive been to the dell website, and the t110, with two HDD's, the pentium (i was hoping for something a bit more but not entirely sure ill need it), 8gb ram, and SBS2008 foundations will run about $1200. I'm in canada so thats the price difference right there. My dads not worried about that, but i was thinking it could be done cheaper, especially with the hardware involved. Any tips or links appreciated.

Heres what I specced out so far:

BASE PowerEdge T110 II Chassis with Cabled 4x3.5 Hard Drives edit
PROCESSOR Intel® Pentium® G620 2.60 GHz, 3M Cache, Dual Core/2T edit
OPERATING SYSTEM Windows Server 2008 R2 SP1, Foundation Edition, x64 edit
MEMORY 8GB Memory (2x4GB), 1333MHz, Dual Ranked UDIMM edit
HARD DRIVES 500GB 7.2k RPM Serial ATA 3Gbps 3.5-in Cabled Hard Drive edit
HARD DRIVE CONFIGURATION Onboard SATA, 1-4 Hard Drives connected to onboard SATA Controller -No RAID edit
PRIMARY CONTROLLER No Controller edit
INTERNAL OPTICAL DRIVE DVD Drive, Internal edit
EMBEDDED MANAGEMENT Baseboard Management Controller edit
SYSTEM DOCUMENTATION Electronic System Doc, OpenManage DVD Kit with Dell Management Console edit
Options
HARDWARE SUPPORT SERVICES 3Yr Basic Hardware Warranty Repair: 5x10 HW-Only, 5x10 NBD Onsite edit
INSTALLATION No Installation edit
PROACTIVE MAINTENANCE Maintenance Declined edit
ALSO INCLUDED WITH YOUR SYSTEM
1ST HARD DRIVE HD Multi-Select
POWER CORDS NEMA 5-15P to C13 Wall Plug, 125 Volt, 15 AMP, 10 Feet (3m), Power Cord
Shipping Shipping for PowerEdge T110 II
Network Adapter On-Board Single Gigabit Network Adapter

This totals $1169.

To upgrade the processor to the i3 is $70, so thats an option, just wondering if its worth it. I'm looking into whether simply has to run on the machine or whether the db can just be stored there. The file itself is multi access, all users can be accessing it at the same time. As far as the HDD's go, is it worth adding the software raid at no cost or should I just use the nightly backup to clone the disc onto the second one?

pretty much everyone there is computer incapable so I need this to be the lowest maintenance possible (otherwise i get to spend my free time there.)

To answer a previous question, I'll be buying 4 new pc's at the same time, but these will be whatever I can find on sale at futureshop or bestbuy at the time. I'd imagine they'll all be Windows 7 so problems logging into the SBS2008 right?
 
[evo];1037750023 said:
ok guys, thanks for all the help. I'll be going with a tower server, with two 500gb hard drives, and probably a few externals as well. The plan is to have one main drive, and the 2nd just a mirror of the first backed up every night.

Ive been to the dell website, and the t110, with two HDD's, the pentium (i was hoping for something a bit more but not entirely sure ill need it), 8gb ram, and SBS2008 foundations will run about $1200. I'm in canada so thats the price difference right there. My dads not worried about that, but i was thinking it could be done cheaper, especially with the hardware involved. Any tips or links appreciated.

Heres what I specced out so far:

BASE PowerEdge T110 II Chassis with Cabled 4x3.5 Hard Drives edit
PROCESSOR Intel® Pentium® G620 2.60 GHz, 3M Cache, Dual Core/2T edit
OPERATING SYSTEM Windows Server 2008 R2 SP1, Foundation Edition, x64 edit
MEMORY 8GB Memory (2x4GB), 1333MHz, Dual Ranked UDIMM edit
HARD DRIVES 500GB 7.2k RPM Serial ATA 3Gbps 3.5-in Cabled Hard Drive edit
HARD DRIVE CONFIGURATION Onboard SATA, 1-4 Hard Drives connected to onboard SATA Controller -No RAID edit
PRIMARY CONTROLLER No Controller edit
INTERNAL OPTICAL DRIVE DVD Drive, Internal edit
EMBEDDED MANAGEMENT Baseboard Management Controller edit
SYSTEM DOCUMENTATION Electronic System Doc, OpenManage DVD Kit with Dell Management Console edit
Options
HARDWARE SUPPORT SERVICES 3Yr Basic Hardware Warranty Repair: 5x10 HW-Only, 5x10 NBD Onsite edit
INSTALLATION No Installation edit
PROACTIVE MAINTENANCE Maintenance Declined edit
ALSO INCLUDED WITH YOUR SYSTEM
1ST HARD DRIVE HD Multi-Select
POWER CORDS NEMA 5-15P to C13 Wall Plug, 125 Volt, 15 AMP, 10 Feet (3m), Power Cord
Shipping Shipping for PowerEdge T110 II
Network Adapter On-Board Single Gigabit Network Adapter

This totals $1169.

To upgrade the processor to the i3 is $70, so thats an option, just wondering if its worth it. I'm looking into whether simply has to run on the machine or whether the db can just be stored there. The file itself is multi access, all users can be accessing it at the same time. As far as the HDD's go, is it worth adding the software raid at no cost or should I just use the nightly backup to clone the disc onto the second one?

pretty much everyone there is computer incapable so I need this to be the lowest maintenance possible (otherwise i get to spend my free time there.)

To answer a previous question, I'll be buying 4 new pc's at the same time, but these will be whatever I can find on sale at futureshop or bestbuy at the time. I'd imagine they'll all be Windows 7 so problems logging into the SBS2008 right?
Click to expand...

get 3 500 gig drives for redundancy, do a raid 5 setup. only a bit more $$.. softraid is ok, i use it all the time and tons of the customers i do repairs for use it too ( dell customers as i am a dell DTT/DCSE tech )

If you can fund it, get that extra next day or same day warranty :)

I think you would be better off with all 3 drives for the server not all mixed and matched. have them in a raid 5. then use your external usb drives ( not sticks ) for backup every few days or every day ( one per day )
 
[evo];1037750023 said:
To upgrade the processor to the i3 is $70, so thats an option, just wondering if its worth it.
....
As far as the HDD's go, is it worth adding the software raid at no cost or should I just use the nightly backup to clone the disc onto the second one?
...
logging into the SBS2008 right?
Click to expand...

In order...
No the i3 isn't worth it.

The HDDs should be RAID1. You could spring for a third drive and go RAID5, but if it was me I'd rather go with 2 drives in RAID1 and leave a further two bays open for future expansion should it be necessary. That way if you did need more space, you could add another pair of drives in RAID1 as well and keep redundancy.

You're not getting SBS2008. You're getting Server 2008 R2 Foundation, which is a cut-down Server 2008 R2 Standard, with a 15 user limitation. I'm assuming you weren't actually expecting Small Business Server 2008/2011, so this likely isn't a problem. SBS2008/2011 is an actual product, and comes with Exchange, if you're curious.
 
You're already spending $1200. How much more to get real RAID? I wouldn't bother with RAID 5 for such a light load, do RAID 1 + hot spare.
 
No softraid.

Upgrade to xeon not i3 and add sas 6 card. Make sure you add the sata warranty
 
Yes do you want to do SBS or does your father not care about Exchange? I think it will be a bit out your experience level
 
[evo];1037750023 said:
To answer a previous question, I'll be buying 4 new pc's at the same time, but these will be whatever I can find on sale at futureshop or bestbuy at the time. I'd imagine they'll all be Windows 7 so problems logging into the SBS2008 right?
Click to expand...

Everyone else has been hitting the server piece so I will skip that and address the above. If you buy a computer with Windows 7 Home Premium it will not connect to the Windows Domain. You would have to use Home Groups instead, and Server 2008 does not support Home Groups. So make sure you are getting machines with Windows 7 Professional.

Also, I can't state this enough for a business, MAKE SURE you get ONSITE support. You really don't want to have to take the computer into Future Shop/Best Buy and not see it for a month while they repair it. You want NEXT BUSINESS DAY to have someone with a part there to fix the computer. Yes, it adds a few hundred dollars/loonies to the price, but over 3 years it is worth it.

Simple Math time:

Desktop computer at Best Buy: $500 x 2 (replacing it at 18 months because of 1 year warranty) = $1,000
Desktop Computer from Dell: $750 with 3 year NBD onsite warranty for 3 years.

You just saved $250 per machine. Figure that something goes bad on the computer. You are short a computer for a month, instead you go buy another one as a spare. You just spent an extra $500. Now you have saved $750 over 3 years or the cost of a full computer.

Shop smart, Shop S-Mart.
 
For machines look at the Optiplex 390 or Vostro models. Optiplex comes with 3 year but sometimes deal on vostro with 3 year is cheaper. Both great machines
 
OK.

I'll look for the machines through dell also, I like the idea of the NBD plan. Also, it'll be cheaper to get W7pro that way which it sounds like I will need.

Now I've got a few for raid 5, and a few for raid 1, with some saying software will be ok and some saying that I should get the add in card.

Decisions!
 
RAID 5 or RAID 1 either one is fine. Both allow you to have a single drive fail. The cost is difference is huge though. In RAID 1, you burn 50% of what you spent on disk due to the mirroring. With RAID 5 and 3 drives you burn 33% of what you spend on disk due to the parity bit (though this number goes down with each additional drive 25% for 4 drives, 20% for 5 drives, etc).

You will get more IOPS with RAID 5 but that is because you have more spindles than you would with RAID1. However I don't think this is a real concern here.

So either one should be fine.

Software vs. Hardware, I generally trust hardware more, but you can run into issues. You often get more features with the hardware card, things like advanced notice of a drive failure, das blinken lights, etc. If the RAID card goes out you can run into issues rebuilding the RAID, but those are VERY rare. Software is cheaper. Again I think either one will work.
 
Does one really need a server for a 5 user accounting office, that wishes to share 100+ Simply files? 10+ users or potential to grow into would be a definite yes. Seriously look at what a plain Win7 Pro/CoreI3/RAID1/USB external HD Backup tower would cost. With AV of choice(server AV can be expensive). Warranty it up as suggested with whatever is in the budget. Do not use it for production, just file hosting / db server.

Server2008 is really only getting you folder permissions via login at a substantial cost.

Cheers!
 
ianshot said:
Everyone else has been hitting the server piece so I will skip that and address the above. If you buy a computer with Windows 7 Home Premium it will not connect to the Windows Domain. You would have to use Home Groups instead, and Server 2008 does not support Home Groups. So make sure you are getting machines with Windows 7 Professional.

Also, I can't state this enough for a business, MAKE SURE you get ONSITE support. You really don't want to have to take the computer into Future Shop/Best Buy and not see it for a month while they repair it. You want NEXT BUSINESS DAY to have someone with a part there to fix the computer. Yes, it adds a few hundred dollars/loonies to the price, but over 3 years it is worth it.

Simple Math time:

Desktop computer at Best Buy: $500 x 2 (replacing it at 18 months because of 1 year warranty) = $1,000
Desktop Computer from Dell: $750 with 3 year NBD onsite warranty for 3 years.

You just saved $250 per machine. Figure that something goes bad on the computer. You are short a computer for a month, instead you go buy another one as a spare. You just spent an extra $500. Now you have saved $750 over 3 years or the cost of a full computer.

Shop smart, Shop S-Mart.
Click to expand...

This is my job EVERY DAY! NBD or 4 our calls, 3 am a server goes down guess who's pager goes off :) and i jump into some cloths call client and start driving.

Next day calls, some days i show up to grab my parts for the day and i have 10+ plus calls to do, love my job, love working on hand on equipment.
 
Don't forget the Dell Outlet. You get great deals on hardware with the same 3-year NBD warranty as new systems. I've purchased from the outlet for 6 or 7 years now and I've never had a DOA system -- anything from thin client Optiplex workstations all the way up to $20k database servers.
 
slowbiznatch said:
Don't forget the Dell Outlet. You get great deals on hardware with the same 3-year NBD warranty as new systems. I've purchased from the outlet for 6 or 7 years now and I've never had a DOA system -- anything from thin client Optiplex workstations all the way up to $20k database servers.
Click to expand...

This I firmly agree with, and I don't work in a Dell shop. Go with the Outlet. 95% of those machines are bought and returned never opened. The ones that are, are clearly noted as damaged. No reason to pay full retail if the same product can be had for less than that.

Never had a DOA item from Dell Refurb either.

The 110 in my sig ~600. But I went barebones and parted it all in myself. Runs like a stud though. I got 3 VM's on it running 08 Standard, with an Exchange 2010 install sitting on top of it for playing. I'm not overly concerned with breakneck speed on it, but it clearly is under utilized even with all that I do with it.
 
If you get a Dell with an OS don't let them preinstall it, I haven't seen a new dell but in the past they had the most ridiculous partitioning scheme which guaranteed you would run out of space.
 
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