SFF Gaming HTPC

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CircuitsMan

Weaksauce
Joined
Nov 8, 2009
Messages
74
Hello All,

I've already gotten some advice at a few other forums (Computer Shopper and Tom's Hardware), but it was suggested I try here. Rather than type a whole new explanation, I'll just copy the message I posted at TH, but with different components that were suggested.

- CircuitsMan

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Hello All,

I'm considering building a gaming HTPC. What I'm hoping to do is kick my TV provider to the curb and watch TV shows from the internet AND drop my phone service and get a magic jack. I've spent the last few weeks trying to find components and the biggest trouble I've had is trying to find a computer case that will fit in my shallow TV stand. I have a fews option about which shelf to put it, but I'm generally limited to something that's 14" (L) x 17" (W) and 7" (H). Because of this, I've mostly been looking at mini-ITX cases because most micro-ATX cases are at least 15.75" long. Here is what I am looking for:

APPROXIMATE PURCHASE DATE: Between now and Christmas.
BUDGET RANGE: $1000-$1200
SYSTEM USAGE FROM MOST TO LEAST IMPORTANT: Basic internet browsing, internet videos, and a few computer games.
PARTS NOT REQUIRED: Monitor. Everything else is required, including OS, keyboard, and mouse.
PREFERRED WEBSITE(S) FOR PARTS: newegg.com, amazon.com, and any retail store
PARTS PREFERENCES: anything goes
OVERCLOCKING: no
MONITOR RESOLUTION: I am a building n00b, so I have no idea here, but the bigger the better I think if I am going to output to a TV.
ADDITIONAL COMMENTS: The only games I want to be able to play on this computer are the HL2 series, which I have but can't play on my laptop, and Diablo 3 whenever (if ever) it comes out.

Here is what I've come up with so far and please let me explain a few things afterwards before you completely shoot this idea down.

Thermaltake Element Q - $74.99
ZOTAC GF8200-C-E Mini ITX AMD Motherboard - $99.99
AMD Phenom II X4 905e Deneb 2.5GHz - $169.99
SAPPHIRE 100283L Radeon HD 5770 (Juniper XT) - $169.99
G.SKILL 4GB DDR2 800 - $129.99
SeaSonic 350W SFX12V Power Supply - $47.99
LITE-ON iHES208-08 Blu-ray Combo ODD - $109.99
Western Digital Caviar Green 640GB Hard Drive - $59.99
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit- $106.99
Logitech S520 Wireless Slim Keyboard & Mouse - $59.99
Scythe 120mm "Slipstream" Case Fan - $8.99

Total Cost = $1038.89

What I wanted to explain is that I've looked at reviews for other mini-itx cases like the Silverstone Sugo SG05, SG06, and Apex MI-008 that make me think this is possible. A couple of people there have said that the've used those cases to build gaming HTPCs. With the SG05 and SG06, the product pages specifically say they can use a full-szied 9" long graphics card, and a few people have said the 300W SFX power supply that comes with the case works great. The SG05 is even featured in a Recomended Systems Guide at avsforum.com in a mini-itx gaming HTPC build. One of the reasons I think the SG05 and SG06 are so prominent are because they have a slot specifically for a 120mm fan whereas most mini-ITX cases I've seen have no fan. Well, several people who left reviews for the MI-008 said they mounted their 3.5" hard drive in the 3.5" external drive bay which then allowed them to easily snap a 120mm fan in the side bay where the HDD was originially supposed to go. If you then compare the Element Q with the MI-008, you'll see they are practically identical in shape, build, and size, so I am hoping I can do the same thing with the Element Q.

Basically what I want to know is if you think this is a good idea or if this is a bunch of bull-hockey. If you think this is bull-hockey, can you please suggest a good case that will fit in in my TV stand? If nobody can think of anything, then my next option would be to remove a shelf in my TV stand and go with an Apevia X-QPACK case and an Asus P5Q-EM micro-ATX intel motherboard.

Thanks,
CircuitsMan


P.S. Here are a few websites I've found that are helpfull or soon will be.
http://www.cpubenchmark.net/
http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/
http://extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp
http://camelegg.com/
 
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I have not a clue about ITX so I can't really say anything about if it's a good idea or not. But after having to resort to some pretty fast and loud fans in my SG01 to get it all cooled off I'd think it may get kinda toasty in that case. Though my cpu is at 85w tdp and the one yer looking at is 65w so I'm sure that would help a bit.

But you might want to look at http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227495 for the memory as it's dirt cheap and made by OCZ. Sure the timings are slow but timings seem to be pretty irrelevant since DDR1.
 
CircuitsMan said:
I decided to go with a single 4g stick in case I wanted to add more later. The mini-ITX boards only have two slots available for memory.
Click to expand...

That would explain the high price.

Taking a better look at the overhead view of the case... I'm not sure that the graphics card will fit. I have a 5770 sitting next to me for a computer I'm putting together for a friend and it goes almost all the way to the back of the mATX mobo. Which makes me think it's going to hit into the cd drive cage area since that looks like it hangs over the mobo area at the edge where the card would be. It's a 2 slot card and the case only gives one slot of space.
 
CircuitsMan said:
If nobody can think of anything, then my next option would be to remove a shelf in my TV stand and go with an Apevia X-QPACK case and an Asus P5Q-EM micro-ATX intel motherboard.
Click to expand...

Poor secondary option for the following reasons:
- Apevia make some of the worst PSUs in the world. Unless you love dead hardware, don't get Apevia
- Socket 775 is pretty EOL'ed. Meaning that it's a dead-end socket at this point. Not to mention that many of AMD's CPUs perform for about the same but costs significantly less while having a better upgrade path.

Why get the Thermaltake case when you yourself said that they're virtually identical?
 
Then my only option might be to go with an HD 4770? Maybe this ASUS EAH4770?

How do I know if a GPU will fit inside a case? Are the number of expansion slots listed for a case where the GPU would go? From your response my guess the answer is yes.

Would it be better if I went with the Sugo SG06 and had a seperate blu-ray player? It's not what I was hoping for, but the SG06 only uses slim ODD and slim Blu-Ray ODD are way too expensive.

The more I look into this, the more I think I'll have to go mATX with a cube for a case, and one less shelf in my TV stand.
 
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Danny Bui said:
Poor secondary option for the following reasons:
- Apevia make some of the worst PSUs in the world. Unless you love dead hardware, don't get Apevia
- Socket 775 is pretty EOL'ed. Meaning that it's a dead-end socket at this point. Not to mention that many of AMD's CPUs perform for about the same but costs significantly less while having a better upgrade path.

Why get the Thermaltake case when you yourself said that they're virtually identical?
Click to expand...

If the Apevia case's PSU is no good, then I'll swap it out for a better one if I can. Like I said before, the problem is finding a case that will fit my shallow TV stand. Meaning the case can be no longer than 14" at the maximum. The only cases I've come across that would fit are the ones I've mentioned above and the Lian-Li PC-Q07 which looks so plain it's disgusting IMO.

I decided on the Thermaltake because it looks better than the MI-008 and because the MI-008 has a mostly plastic front and the Thermaltake does not, as far as I can tell.
 
... Uh. I hope you do realize that the mobo you picked out (the Zotac 8200) will not fit a video card in it because it's not a PCIe x slot.
 
Will the AM3 processor work in that board? I also don't know if the video card will fit considering it doesn't have 2 slots. This is an advantage of the SG05/SG06.
 
CrimandEvil said:
... Uh. I hope you do realize that the mobo you picked out (the Zotac 8200) will not fit a video card in it because it's not a PCIe x slot.
Click to expand...

Then the guy back at TH didn't do his homework before suggesting it to me. At the moment he was probably only thinking about power savings. I had been considering the ZOTAC GF9300-G-E Mini ITX Intel Motherboard which does have a PCI Express 2.0 x16 expansion slot, but the intel processors seem to consume more power. Any chance that Zotac might be coming out with a better AMD motherboard any time soon?
 
Well, that board will limit the GPU a lot, i think it's only a PCIeX1 slot so you won't have nearly enough bandwidth to take advantage of it, that if you can get it to fit. there is no PCIeX1 5770 that i know of.
 
How about the new celeron e3300? They are basically low end Core2 Duos, better in features then the Pentium Dual Cores.
 
Danny Bui said:
Apevia make some of the worst PSUs in the world. Unless you love dead hardware, don't get Apevia
Click to expand...

Apevia can't be that bad, they've gotten more revies at Newegg than any other PSU in the 450-500W and 500-600W categories! Granted, though, the 420W PSU that comes with the qpack case may not be enough.
 
CircuitsMan said:
Apevia can't be that bad, they've gotten more revies at Newegg than any other PSU in the 450-500W and 500-600W categories! Granted, though, the 420W PSU that comes with the qpack case may not be enough.
Click to expand...

Danny Bui is not kidding.

NewEgg is a horrid place for PSU reviews.

For better ones, try [H] or JonnyGuru.
 
Re-reading what I said before... I was incorrect about why the 5770 wouldn't fit but was correct that it won't fit. Won't fit due to the card taking up the slot next to it which the case doesn't have.

Any single slot cooler cards will still have issues due to the fact that the fan will be choked for airflow being right up against the side of the case. That ASUS you linked looks to be an almost 2 slot cooler. The cooler would have to be at most as wide as the pci slot bracket to not stick over into the next slot.


With Intel you can always get a quad core and undervolt it. Mine runs with no issues under 1.1v. At 1.1v it's using 74w and the lower you can get it the less power the chip uses. All the low power AMD chips are are undervolted regular ones. But there is of course the possibility that your chip won't run at a lower voltage.
 
CircuitsMan said:
Apevia can't be that bad, they've gotten more revies at Newegg than any other PSU in the 450-500W and 500-600W categories! Granted, though, the 420W PSU that comes with the qpack case may not be enough.
Click to expand...

rofl... listen to dannybui and jeremyshaw and stay away from apevia

stay here or http://www.jonnyguru.com/ for all your PSU readings

also, it wouldn't hurt if you did some leg work yourself instead of relying on other's knowledge (or lack of...) for your own personal purchase

ps. im referring to that itx mobo someone at tom's recommended when it doesn't have a pci-x slot.. or the guy earlier in this thread that suggested "cheap" ram that is DDR3 and that itx mobo is DDR2 :eek:
 
makmatsu said:
or the guy earlier in this thread that suggested "cheap" ram that is DDR3 and that itx mobo is DDR2 :eek:
Click to expand...

Good point, I looked at the cpu and saw it was an AM3 and not the mobo which an AM2+. Zotac's website at least says it'll support an AM3.
 
WintersFury said:
Good point, I looked at the cpu and saw it was an AM3 and not the mobo. Looking at the mobo, it doesn't say that it is AM3 capable. Now it could very possibly run an AM3 cpu, but the bios may not have the proper coding for it. Not 100% sure on how the whole older socket newer chip thing works for AMD and if the mobo needs to have the bios written to properly support it.
Click to expand...

if it's AM2+/AM2 it should be good for DDR2 only, but these sockets CAN take AM3 cpus (granted the bios supports it, like it you said)

if it's AM3, then it's DDR3 AND AM3 only

someone correct me if i'm wrong
 
makmatsu said:
also, it wouldn't hurt if you did some leg work yourself instead of relying on other's knowledge (or lack of...) for your own personal purchase

ps. im referring to that itx mobo someone at tom's recommended when it doesn't have a pci-x slot.. or the guy earlier in this thread that suggested "cheap" ram that is DDR3 and that itx mobo is DDR2 :eek:
Click to expand...

I'm doing as much legwork as I can, but since I've never built a computer before, I'm finding it difficult to double check every little thing on every component I look at. That's partially why I've come to forums like these for advice. Sheesh!
 
makmatsu said:
if it's AM2+/AM2 it should be good for DDR2 only, but these sockets CAN take AM3 cpus (granted the bios supports it, like it you said)

if it's AM3, then it's DDR3 AND AM3 only

someone correct me if i'm wrong
Click to expand...

Correct as far as I know. Since the AM2/AM2+ cpu's only have a DDR2 controller and AM3 boards only have DDR3 slots. And you caught my post right before I looked at the Zotac site and saw they say the board supports AM3 cpu's.

But if he wants a dedicated video card that's still an issue as it's a PCIe x1 slot. And the lack of bandwith would most likely be a problem. Not to mention he'd have to cut the slot open to put a PCIe x16 card in it.
 
AM2 -> AM3 seems iffy, so far. Most AM2 mobos don't have the BIOS patched up to this point.
AM2+ -> AM3 has much better BIOS support from vendors / mobo manufacturers.

EDIT: WOAH :eek: Major posting lag!
 
CircuitsMan said:
I'm doing as much legwork as I can, but since I've never built a computer before, I'm finding it difficult to double check every little thing on every component I look at. That's partially why I've come to forums like these for advice. Sheesh!
Click to expand...

i do have one real advice...

don't plan on making a gaming rig right now for games that are not even out yet (ie diablo 3)
 
makmatsu said:
i do have one real advice...

don't plan on making a gaming rig right now for games that are not even out yet (ie diablo 3)
Click to expand...

and may not be out for another year or so.

We all know Blizzard's long development times.

Another year, and we could have AM3+ mobos, or 1366 mobos. <--ITX/DTX, of course. Personally, I am rooting for DTX
 
CircuitsMan said:
Apevia can't be that bad, they've gotten more revies at Newegg than any other PSU in the 450-500W and 500-600W categories! Granted, though, the 420W PSU that comes with the qpack case may not be enough.
Click to expand...

Indeed they are that bad:
XQPack's Included 420W PSU
Apevia ATX-AS500W-BL
Apevia Warlock Power 900W
Aspire Beast 680W Power Supply

That's why for PSU reviews, NEVER trust Newegg. Full of people who know nothing about power supplies.

I would not recommend getting the E8400 unless it's for $120 used or new.
 
As a fellow builder that's new to the SFF scene, my recommendation is not to go with such a small case until you have experience with something a bit larger. I just built my gaming PC with the SG03, which is larger than the SG05/06, but it was still really difficult (though maybe my particular choice of components just made it much harder), even though I had some previous experience at building PCs (mid-tower in 2004 or so).
 
Maian said:
As a fellow builder that's new to the SFF scene, my recommendation is not to go with such a small case until you have experience with something a bit larger. I just built my gaming PC with the SG03, which is larger than the SG05/06, but it was still really difficult (though maybe my particular choice of components just made it much harder), even though I had some previous experience at building PCs (mid-tower in 2004 or so).
Click to expand...

:p Come meet us in the HP Slimline thread:D

Yeah... I completely concur. It's a novelty, at the moment. A small mATX case may serve you better.

As a beginner.

With experience, then start moving into the no-safetyzone of SFF - the real SFF, not just mATX, but DTX ITX style.
 
CircuitsMan said:
Would it be better if I went with the Sugo SG06 and had a seperate blu-ray player? It's not what I was hoping for, but the SG06 only uses slim ODD and slim Blu-Ray ODD are way too expensive.
Click to expand...

The prices for slim Blu-ray ODD are really not too bad now, especially ones based on the Panasonic UJ-120. However, you will need to find adapter that converts its slim IDE interface into desktop SATA connectors to use it. You can also consider getting our TOB02 Blu-ray drive (which is also a UJ-120), which comes with the above mentioned adapter plus an extra silver bezel, which helps greatly should you decide to go for a silver SG06.
 
I've used an Apevia Q-pack, and boy is it small and flimsy. If I were to build a SFF HTPC, I would definitely go with something a little higher-end, like silverstone.
 
Tony Ou said:
The prices for slim Blu-ray ODD are really not too bad now, especially ones based on the Panasonic UJ-120. However, you will need to find adapter that converts its slim IDE interface into desktop SATA connectors to use it. You can also consider getting our TOB02 Blu-ray drive (which is also a UJ-120), which comes with the above mentioned adapter plus an extra silver bezel, which helps greatly should you decide to go for a silver SG06.
Click to expand...

I tried checking out slim Blu-Ray drives and about the only place I could find them was Amazon.com and the specs and reviews of them didn't really impress me. Maybe you can help with the question below about the Grandia GD04?


Mac Truck said:
Personally, I'd wait until the Intel H57 or DFI P55 board dropped if I was going ITX.
Click to expand...

I think an i5 or an i7 is a little out of my price range so I'll probably stick with the Core 2's, even if it the LGA 775 socket is EOL. I don't plan on doing much upgrading with this build anyways, so I'm fine with that. On the other hand, if someone made a decent AMD mini-itx motherboard with a PCIe-x slot I would have no problem going with the Phenom II X4 905e.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well, I started looking into computer cases again but I still have the same problem. Most micro-ATX cases are too deep for my TV stand and for those cases that do fit, I have my doubts whether they'll have adequate low-noise cooling for a gaming/HTPC. I also double checked the mini-ITX cases and with the exception of the Sugo SG05 and SG06 all of them either have just one expansion slot or 4 slim slots. Here is a list of cases I found that would fit.

Apevia X-Qpack
Apevia X-Xpack2
Athena Power CA-1015IS40 or other models
hec 7k09
In Win BK623
In Win BK636
In Win BK644
Lian Li PC-Q07
Silverstone Grandia GD04
Silverstone Sugo SG05
SilverStone Sugo SG06

The hec case is just shallow enough to fit on the top shelf, but it only has one 80mm fan in the front of the case. The Grandia case is just narrow enought to fit in the other shelves of my TV stand, but there will only be about half an inch of room on either side which is where three 120mm fans are. Is that enough space for the fans to move air? (My TV stand is completely open in the back, and the front is usually open as well.) The two Sugo cases as everyone knows are min-itx cases. The only problem I have with these is they only take slim ODD, which means I won't be getting a Blu-Ray combo drive. The rest of the cases will fit just fine, but they mentioned very little about fans and cooling and there were very few customer review to read for information. Of these 11 cases which do you think is best for a gaming/HTPC?
 
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My vote is on the Grandia04. I love my SUG0B, but that Grandia is just sexy.

But you knew that.;)
 
As mentioned earlier, Apevia makes some shitty PSUs. Kind of a waste of money to pay for a shitty PSU that you're gonna replace right away if you're in your right mind.

Personally if you really want the Apevia design without having to pay for a shitty PSU, then I recommend this case:
$60 - Black Chiefmax FC-DV21M mATX Case

The Athena case will be pretty loud due to the 60mm and 80mm fans. Sure there are quiet 60mm and 80mm fans, they don't push enough air to keep a system cool. So that's out.

The HEC comes with a crappy PSU just like Apevia and uses a not so common PSU design. Not to mention the limited cooling for a video card. So that's out.

All three Inwin cases comes with very low quality as well as a not so common PSU design unsuitable for any half-decent video card. Trying to find a good quality PSU that fits the Inwin and HEC cases is very hard. That's in addition to the really limited cooling as well as limtied space present in the cases. So they're out.

The ITX cases means you're gonna have to go the Intel socket 775 route if buying now. However that's a problem as noted earlier since the socket is now EOL'd and the CPUs are pretty expensive (if buying new) for the performance they offer. However buying a used socket 775 CPU does mitigate this problem. So if you do that, I'd recommend either the Lian Li or the SG05 as the SG06's cooling is somewhat bad compared to the SG05.

So your best bets for a decent case if you're going with a more bang for the buck build gaming/HTPC setup (either based on a AM3 or Core i5 setup) is either the Chiefmax case or the Silverstone case. A half inch space should be enough for cooling.

CircuitsMan said:
I think an i5 or an i7 is a little out of my price range so I'll probably stick with the Core 2's, even if it the LGA 775 socket is EOL.
Click to expand...

With a $1200 budget, you can easily get a Core i5 mATX setup, even with good parts.
 
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If anyone is interested to know, I found a picture of my TV stand at Amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0001WYHZQ/

Danny Bui said:
Personally if you really want the Apevia design without having to pay for a shitty PSU, then I recommend this case:
$60 - Black Chiefmax FC-DV21M mATX Case
Click to expand...

The Chiefmax case won't fit because, as I said before, I only have 14" of space front to back. I might gain an inch of space by using the the top shelf, but the case would have to be under 5" tall.
 
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CircuitsMan said:
The Chiefmax case won't fit because, as I said before, I only have 14" of space front to back. I might gain an inch of space by using the the top shelf, but the case would have to be under 5" tall.
Click to expand...

Ok. Then the Silverstone is your best bet then :)
 
CircuitsMan said:
I think an i5 or an i7 is a little out of my price range so I'll probably stick with the Core 2's, even if it the LGA 775 socket is EOL. I don't plan on doing much upgrading with this build anyways, so I'm fine with that. On the other hand, if someone made a decent AMD mini-itx motherboard with a PCIe-x slot I would have no problem going with the Phenom II X4 905e.
Click to expand...
With a budget of $1000-1200, and an ITX setup (which will fit just an upper-midrange card), you can easily afford 1156.
 
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