SFF graphics advice: HD 4770 vs GTS 250 1Gb?

O

Odie812

n00b
Joined
Nov 13, 2004
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36
Helloooo,

I have been researching for hours around here but I have to ask my question anyway.

In short, I have already built this system and I am ready to throw down for a video card:

Lian-Li PC-V351B
Antec Basiq 550 Plus PSU
AMD PII X4 920 2.8 Ghz (stock cooling)
Asus M3N78-VM
2x2 Gb G Skilll DDR2 800
Windows 7
Everything stock speeds/voltages

System use:

This is sort of a hybrid HTPC/gaming system. I do some photoshop and video work when I'm not playing around or watching media. Haven't played games for a while but might have some time on my hands soon and I have to catch up. I've never even played Crysis! Also, I am sort of preparing this computer for Starcraft II whenever it arrives.

Video card budget:

$100-150

So, I've narrowed down the new 4770 and the GTS 250 1Gb as options. I read Anandtech's writeup where they benched the 4770 with the 512 Mb version of the 250 and the two were very comparable.

Questions

1.) Which would be the better card to buy, the 4770 or the GTS 250 1Gb? Is the 250 55 nm?

2.) If not for either of the two cards above, what else would you suggest and why? Please keep in mind that I don't have the means to constantly upgrade, but on the other hand, I'm willing to make a solid purchase. I just don't know if I need the firepower of a GTX or 4800 series.

3.) Unrelated question: can anyone recommend a quiet HSF for my phenom II? I won't be overclocking, but the stock cooler is sort of substantial in sound.

Many thanks!
 
Both cards have near equal performance. Many will argue about one company's driver support over another but in all reality, some have problems with ATI and some have problems with Nvidia. Are you more loyal to one company? Either way, you are going to have a nice card. Don't stess to much over this.
 
So, I ought to save $40-50 and not worry about missing 512Mb of extra memory?
 
1) Neither. That PSU is of pretty weak quality
2) Recommend sticking to onboard video until the PSU is replaced
3) I think this HSF fits:
$40 - Xigmatek Dark Knight-S1283V 120mm HSF
 
That xigmatek will fit if you cut off about 1/3 of it. The PSU is also fine for your setup (Looking from the website it has 3 12V rails, which is more than enough for a midrange build)
 
someone16 said:
That xigmatek will fit if you cut off about 1/3 of it. The PSU is also fine for your setup (Looking from the website it has 3 12V rails, which is more than enough for a midrange build)
Click to expand...

Amount of rails means jack shit these days if the PSU quality isn't there. If it was a good quality 550W PSU it would be enough. But it's a low quality 550W PSU so it will more than likely be not enough for any decent GPU upgrade.
 
Odie812 said:
Ok, I get it. Could you please answer my questions despite the power supply?
Click to expand...

Fine:

1) Out of those two, I'd go for the GTS 250. The 512MB version was shown to be faster and allowed for higher settings than the HD 4770 in HardOCP's review of the cards.
2) The HD4850 can be found for around the same price range as the GTS 250. Considering that the HD4850 is faster than the GTS 250/9800GTX+, I'd recommend getting the HD4850 instead.

But again, highly highly recommend replacing the PSU first.
 
Odie812 said:
Thanks.

You know, your tone is so off-putting. I do not understand the reason for your attitude.

I bet you don't care, though.
Click to expand...

He knows what he's talking about and is tired of people claiming that "no it's enough I'm sure of it" only to come back in a month or two later to start a PSU recommendation thread because theirs finally went up in smoke (or better yet, refused to power the system at all, resulting in the same thread two days rather than two months later). Worse still, some people lose other components with particularly bad PSU failures and it's back to the drawing board.

Danny Bui is an extremely active forum poster, as are enginurd, tiraides, myself and several others -- particularly in General [H]ardware where most of these sorts of questions end up.

We all put in hours because we honestly enjoy helping people out, and we all get tired of being ignored and chastised by the very people who originally came to us for help from time to time.


He told you the PSU was bad (I agree with him, I've had enough low-end Antecs die on me to know better).
You said it had enough rails.
He said rails don't matter, which is accurate, especially given many "multi-rail" PSUs are really single rail designs.
You asked him to ignore the PSU (thusly ignoring the issue.)
He did so, if unhappily.

Who was obnoxious here? 34 posts in the course of four and a half years doesn't seem like a very strong basis for this sense of entitlement you've shouldered.

If you don't want help, if you think you already have the answers... don't ask for them.
 
silent-circuit said:
He knows what he's talking about and is tired of people claiming that "no it's enough I'm sure of it" only to come back in a month or two later to start a PSU recommendation thread because theirs finally went up in smoke (or better yet, refused to power the system at all, resulting in the same thread two days rather than two months later). Worse still, some people lose other components with particularly bad PSU failures and it's back to the drawing board.

Danny Bui is an extremely active forum poster, as are enginurd, tiraides, myself and several others -- particularly in General [H]ardware where most of these sorts of questions end up.

We all put in hours because we honestly enjoy helping people out, and we all get tired of being ignored and chastised by the very people who originally came to us for help from time to time.


He told you the PSU was bad (I agree with him, I've had enough low-end Antecs die on me to know better).
You said it had enough rails.
He said rails don't matter, which is accurate, especially given many "multi-rail" PSUs are really single rail designs.
You asked him to ignore the PSU (thusly ignoring the issue.)
He did so, if unhappily.

Who was obnoxious here? 34 posts in the course of four and a half years doesn't seem like a very strong basis for this sense of entitlement you've shouldered.

If you don't want help, if you think you already have the answers... don't ask for them.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you ought to re-read this thread and get your story straight. Also, I don't know where I seemed entitled to anything. Do you understand what that phrase, "sense of entitlement," means?

But anyway, like I said, thanks for the replies. I do appreciate your input, even if you are unfairly projecting previous posters' experiences onto this thread.
 
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Don't take it personally :) Everyone just wants you to have a great system, that's it.
 
@ silent-circuit

Thanks for the defense :) But you did get a few things wrong: The OP didn't bring up the amount of rails, someone16 did.

@ Odie812
silent-circuit is right: I do see a lot these threads:
- Where the OP has some weak PSU and asking for GPU upgrade recommendations
- I tell him he has a weak PSU and should replace,
- The OP says he doesn't and proceeds to ignore my advice and get a video card that far exceeds his PSU's capability
- The OP ends up asking in the PSU subforum in a month or two for a PSU recommendation after seeing his system

I also hate it when someone provides highly inaccurate information (i.e someone16's false multi-rail comment) so I do get a bit peeved when I see that.

As for my terse "fine" comment, it was done with great reluctance since whenever someone replies to me like the way you did ("Ok, I get it. Could you please answer my questions despite the power supply?"), I figured automatically that you were probably gonna ignore my advice anyway about the PSU. Trust me, I've seen it happen many times here on the forums.

And timme is right: we're all trying to make sure that you have a great and stable system. But it is bloody annoying when someone ignores your advice and make an extremely poor decision.
 
Danny Bui, why are you assuming I am ignoring your advice? I didn't say anything about whether I agreed or disagreed with what you said, but if anything, I acknowledged it (and I do). I never used the word 'ignore' but yet you assumed I would do so because people in the past have ignored your advice. Don't you see how this projection is unfair to me?

I am really just trying to figure out why this off-topic argument occurred in a thread where I simply sought objective opinions about two graphics boards, and further, why it was falsely attributed to me. Also, I suppose because this forum is predominantly populated by young people, verbal abuse will occur. However, silent-circuit accused me of entitlement in the same passage where he complained of "being ignored and chastised by the very people who originally came to us for help from time to time," which is, in fact, psychiatrically defined as a sense of entitlement.

But hey, I only have a MD/Ph.D, what do I know?
 
Odie812 said:
Danny Bui, why are you assuming I am ignoring your advice? I didn't say anything about whether I agreed or disagreed with what you said, but if anything, I acknowledged it (and I do). I never used the word 'ignore' but yet you assumed I would do so because people in the past have ignored your advice. Don't you see how this projection is unfair to me?
Click to expand...
Yes I can see how this projection is unfair to you. But just how you said my tone was off-putting, your tone was a cause as well:
Odie812 said:
Ok, I get it. Could you please answer my questions despite the power supply?
Click to expand...
The tone in that response is what made me assume, coming from much experience on this forum, that you were already planning on ignoring my advice. Believe me, I've seen those words and tone used plenty of times to know when I'm being ignored.

But I apologize for assuming that you were gonna ignore my advice. But like I said: Keep helping people here on the forums long enough, you'll figure when people are gonna ignore your advice just from the tone and the way their posts are written.

Odie812 said:
I am really just trying to figure out why this off-topic argument occurred in a thread where I simply sought objective opinions about two graphics boards, and further, why it was falsely attributed to me. Also, I suppose because this forum is predominantly populated by young people, verbal abuse will occur.
Click to expand...

It pretty much started from this:
Odie812 said:
You know, your tone is so off-putting. I do not understand the reason for your attitude.

I bet you don't care, though.
Click to expand...
You assumed that I don't care. I do care. Otherwise, I wouldn't keep helping so much here in the forums. Is that not a unfair assumption on your part that I do not care at all?

As a result of the above quote, silent-circuit, for the lack of better word, started ranting. Yes you probably did not deserve to have your thread sidetracked. But silent-circuit and I have both seen these words:
Odie812 said:
I bet you don't care, though.
Click to expand...
Uttered by hundreds of self-entitled people here on the forums. So again, more than likely, silent-circuit assumed that you were one of those self-entitled people.

So basically what it comes down to is this: a huge mis-understanding based on assumptions rooted in past experiences.
 
Can you all just chill for a second?

1. the 4770 is cheaper than the GTS, IIRC. If budget is not a problem, I take the GTS (I've had better PERSONAL experience with nVidia than ATI, but your mileage may vary). If it is, then the 4770.

2. regarding the PSU: I don't know the PSU you chose originally but I'll take Danny's word for it. I'd go for a Corsair 400 or 450 or equivalent. You clearly don't need more than that. Better to pick a quality brand (Corsair, Enermax, Silverstone for example) and go for lower wattage, which usually means cheaper. Don't make the mistake of thinking that 'bigger' is better. Most PSUs are at their best in the 50-75% usage band. That's what you should aim for peak wattage. I have a Enermax MODU82+ 525w for a OC'd E8400 (4GHz) and a 55nm GTX260, I'm only reaching 50% usage worst-case scenario (which means ORTHOS and FurMark running at the same time, which is totally unrealistic as far as real-world usage is). I almost regret not getting the 425W version. Or less.
 
As mentioned, either card will be fine. The PSU too IMO. The system is only going to draw 250W anyway. Antec's designs get a lot of flak sometimes, but I've owned a few and don't dismiss them immediately as garbage. There are far worse PSU makers.

Edit: I honestly wouldn't bother about the 1GB 250. The 8800GT was tested back in the day with 1GB of ram, it didn't make a lot of difference.

FWIW: Just offer advice, don't get hissy at the prospect that it might be ignored.
 
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Here in Sweden The Antec Basiq 550 is more expensive than, say, a Nexus Value 430W or a Corsair 400 or 450. In your situation, I'd rather pick one of these. My 2 cents.

On the other hand, in the US there are always crazy promotions here and there. So this might not apply to you.
 
If you use it as an HTPC then I would tilt the decision to the ATI card, less power draw, physically smaller and proper HDMI out. This is a card that supports the latest DX 10.1 stuff and is a stellar card for home theater. I am in the same boat as you (HTPC-ish PC currently on integrated) and really like the ease at which my 780G chip-set's HDMI output works.

Upgrade your power supply only if you _have_ to. I never knew that there were power supply zealots!

Cheers,
_GP_
 
I don't know about PSU zealots, but you shouldn't underestimate the importance of choosing 'the right PSU for you'.

Now it's true that he already has that Antec Basiq, so I don't think he should upgrade it either.
 
RonindeBeatrice said:
As mentioned, either card will be fine. The PSU too IMO. The system is only going to draw 250W anyway. Antec's designs get a lot of flak sometimes, but I've owned a few and don't dismiss them immediately as garbage. There are far worse PSU makers.

Edit: I honestly wouldn't bother about the 1GB 250. The 8800GT was tested back in the day with 1GB of ram, it didn't make a lot of difference.

FWIW: Just offer advice, don't get hissy at the prospect that it might be ignored.
Click to expand...
agreed....did I miss something, or when did Antec Basiq become the new Raidmax?

Surely, for a system that's going to draw 300W absolute worst case scenario, an Antec Basiq 550W is sufficient.
 
georgep68 said:
Upgrade your power supply only if you _have_ to. I never knew that there were power supply zealots!

Cheers,
_GP_
Click to expand...

The problem with that idea is usually the "have to" part comes in AFTER your power supply or motherboard or graphics card has been fried due to the lack of capabilities in the power supply. That's a piss-poor decision to make. That's like saying "only get health insurance if you HAVE to". Um... no. Get it asap. Period.
 
Alai said:
The problem with that idea is usually the "have to" part comes in AFTER your power supply or motherboard or graphics card has been fried due to the lack of capabilities in the power supply. That's a piss-poor decision to make. That's like saying "only get health insurance if you HAVE to". Um... no. Get it asap. Period.
Click to expand...

You serious? His 550 Watt power supply is going to cause all of his components to be fried if he doesn't change it out immediately for your preferred brand?? I'm surprised more of you haven't gone crazy on the fact that a stock cooler is being used.

_GP_
 
Lol. Sorry, I wasn't referring to his specific case. But I was referring to your generalized advice that shouldn't be taken to heart by everyone who reads this thread.
 
RonindeBeatrice said:
As mentioned, either card will be fine. The PSU too IMO. The system is only going to draw 250W anyway. Antec's designs get a lot of flak sometimes, but I've owned a few and don't dismiss them immediately as garbage. There are far worse PSU makers.
Click to expand...

jebo_4jc said:
agreed....did I miss something, or when did Antec Basiq become the new Raidmax?

Surely, for a system that's going to draw 300W absolute worst case scenario, an Antec Basiq 550W is sufficient.
Click to expand...

The Antec Basiq 550W is made and designed by FSP. Thats why I personally wouldn't trust that PSU due to the performance of past FSP PSUs, particularly their FSP Episilon designs.

georgep68 said:
You serious? His 550 Watt power supply is going to cause all of his components to be fried if he doesn't change it out immediately for your preferred brand??
Click to expand...

While I wouldn't go as far as to say his system will die immediately, with a low quality PSU like that Basiq, the longevity of that system isn't guaranteed. As said above, the Antec Basiq line is of low quality. In addition, just because the system doesn't draw all 550W of power, probably 325W, it doesn't meant that PSU will not die. There have been many cases where a PSU/PC can die even when there's a low load on them.

If the OP wants to stick with the Antec Basiq, fine by me. It's his system, not mine.
 
As a SFF owner I would definitely opt for the 4770, its power consumption is lower with quieter cooling than the GTS 250. But the fact that the GTS 250 has an option for 1 gb ram on their video cards makes it win out in the end. 512 mb is just not enough especially when you consider that the 4770 shines when you crank the resolution and AA to high levels.

Between your choices, if you need a card like, right now... GTS 250 1 gb. But if you can wait a couple weeks then I recommend the HD 4770 1 gb coming out in mid-May, at least from XFX, and probably from others. Either wil serve you well.

I have to say though, definitely get a video card that has rear-exhausting capabilities, like pushing hot air out of your SFF case. The last thing you need is a video card dumping even more heat into your case's interior. But the 4770 [H] reviewed looked pretty promising; hopefully some brand will repackage it with 1 gb.
 
Jalidi said:
As a SFF owner I would definitely opt for the 4770, its power consumption is lower with quieter cooling than the GTS 250. But the fact that the GTS 250 has an option for 1 gb ram on their video cards makes it win out in the end. 512 mb is just not enough especially when you consider that the 4770 shines when you crank the resolution and AA to high levels.

Between your choices, if you need a card like, right now... GTS 250 1 gb. But if you can wait a couple weeks then I recommend the HD 4770 1 gb coming out in mid-May, at least from XFX, and probably from others. Either wil serve you well.

I have to say though, definitely get a video card that has rear-exhausting capabilities, like pushing hot air out of your SFF case. The last thing you need is a video card dumping even more heat into your case's interior. But the 4770 [H] reviewed looked pretty promising; hopefully some brand will repackage it with 1 gb.
Click to expand...

It's rumored that XFX is readying a 1GB 4770 card. Just google "xfx 4770 1gb" and you'll get loads of hits.
That's the one I'm currently waiting for myself, but I consider myself an Ati Fanboy, so I'm not completely unbiased. :D
 
The amount of video memory you need depends largely on the resolution of your display.
 
I guess the amount of memory one needs depends especially on resolution. If all you play on is a 22" monitor, then 512MB should be enough, whether on a 4770 or a GTS250.

edit: damn, jebo beat me to it
 
NichoTL said:
I guess the amount of memory one needs depends especially on resolution. If all you play on is a 22" monitor, then 512MB should be enough, whether on a 4770 or a GTS250.

...
Click to expand...

Well only if you mean a 22" displaying 1680x1050, when displaying @ 1080p 512MB probably won't cut it.

btw, shouldn't this topic be moved to the GFX department?
 
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Kind of off-topic, but is there a safe way to find out if a GTS 250 uses the new design with the shorter board? 9" length and only one power connector, is that it?
 
Abductor said:
Well only if you mean a 22" displaying 1680x1050, when displaying @ 1080p 512MB probably won't cut it.
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What are you talking about? 1080p? what has that got to do with anything?

I should have specified 1680*1050 obviously. If you own one of the handful 22" that display 1920*1080 then you already know that it's more of a 24" resolution.
 
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timme said:
Kind of off-topic, but is there a safe way to find out if a GTS 250 uses the new design with the shorter board? 9" length and only one power connector, is that it?
Click to expand...

I thought it was 9.5" length but I guess that's pretty academic. Apart from looking at pix on the manufacturer's website, dunno. I thought at first that all GTS250 would use the new design, but some manufacturers just re-used the 9800GTX+ design and stuck a GTS250 label on it. Talk about confusion...
 
I took my own advice and got an XFX 4770. Installed it last night (was previously using 780g integrated). OMG this thing is ridiculous fast (1680x1050 monitor). I'm going to have to go and get some new games to play now. Card fit fine in my case (CoolerMaster 341) and I can't hear it over the other fans already present. I was going to wait until the next gen cards came out but I'm very pleased with this card now. The HDMI works perfectly (sound just worked). XFX has the big warranty.

Cheers,
_GP_
 
georgep68 said:
I took my own advice and got an XFX 4770. Installed it last night (was previously using 780g integrated). OMG this thing is ridiculous fast (1680x1050 monitor). I'm going to have to go and get some new games to play now. Card fit fine in my case (CoolerMaster 341) and I can't hear it over the other fans already present. I was going to wait until the next gen cards came out but I'm very pleased with this card now. The HDMI works perfectly (sound just worked). XFX has the big warranty.

Cheers,
_GP_
Click to expand...

Which one?
xfx-radeon-hd4770-512mb-pcie.jpg

or this one?
xfx-radeon-hd4770-512mb-pcie.jpg
 
NichoTL said:
Which one?
xfx-radeon-hd4770-512mb-pcie.jpg

or this one?
xfx-radeon-hd4770-512mb-pcie.jpg
Click to expand...

Damn I didn't know the first one existed. I got the one with the goofy cooler (2nd one) that looks exactly the same no matter which brand you get. With my case no biggie but for HTPC duty I would definitely want the rear exhausting cooler.

Cheers,
_GP_
 
timme said:
Kind of off-topic, but is there a safe way to find out if a GTS 250 uses the new design with the shorter board? 9" length and only one power connector, is that it?
Click to expand...
as I understand it, ALL 1GB versions of the GTS250 have the shorter PCB.
 
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