So is the Storm the BEST cpu block?

top nurse, you may be the high bidder, but i got the first bid in, muh hahahah.. oh wait, that doesnt mean crap... son of .. *turns and walks away*
 
theseeker said:
Cathar is the person responsible for the Storm. http://www.procooling.com/reviews/html/storm_g5_waterblock_review_-_1.php
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From this review, when it compares to other CPU cooler, I don't see any comparison btwn. the storm series vs. the Aqua line CPU cooler, such as cuplex pro.

In the old Aqua computer thread, there are a lot of good comments on Aqua's CPU cooler. As such, is it because this CPU cooler is not as popular as made in USA coolers, or is Pro Cooling concern that comparing Aqua CPU cooler would make the other CPU coolers look bad?

On an unrelated matter, you guys think we should post a similar thread and ask who make the best GPU cooler?
 
Erasmus354 said:
As an engineer myself I feel exactly the same way, numbers numbers numbers. In something as strongly based in physics and numbers for performance comparisons there simply is no substitute for a well executed scientifically sound test as a means of benchmarking a waterblock.
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Hmm... I suppose you might want to go here: http://www.watercoolplanet.de/index.php?open=4&show=1&sort=differenz&order=asc&pagenum=1

Are these good enough numbers for you or are they somehow suspect in your opinion? They show the Cuplex Pro (an older Aqua Computer design) with a measly 6mm ID tube beating out a whole lot of blocks with much bigger tubes. Now how would that be possible? Hmm...perhaps it has a really good design that takes advantage of all those neat little engineering tweaks based on physics, and number crunching. Yes? No? ;)
 
Single mount per block there at WCP. No proper control of the mounting variability.

Are they assessing what a block can really do? Or what a block can do the first they happened to slap it onto the testbed? All indications point to the latter.

Thermal heat-die is also not adequately insulated and it favors smaller based blocks which allow for more air-flow around the heat die.

In short - a number of evident flaws which could be addressed to make their testing much better. If the variables can't be proven to be controlled, then what is being measured?
 
What I honestly wouldn't do for a storm block, lol.

In looks, AC gear wins, in overall raw performance I think the Storm has the ticket there. Not to mention its more readily available then AC gear.
 
I still want to see it in a graph, comparing apple to apple.

By the way, w/ the price tag that Storm 5 is charging, it would be cheaper to hire a sweat shop boy from P diddy team to cool the cpu with a piece of card board paper. :D
 
Top Nurse said:
Hmm... I suppose you might want to go here: http://www.watercoolplanet.de/index.php?open=4&show=1&sort=differenz&order=asc&pagenum=1

Are these good enough numbers for you or are they somehow suspect in your opinion? They show the Cuplex Pro (an older Aqua Computer design) with a measly 6mm ID tube beating out a whole lot of blocks with much bigger tubes. Now how would that be possible? Hmm...perhaps it has a really good design that takes advantage of all those neat little engineering tweaks based on physics, and number crunching. Yes? No? ;)
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And as you pointed out in another thread, they tested it over a year ago as is the same with most blocks in their list................. :eek: Oh goodness, lets stay on the same sheet of music all the time and not when it makes your !!!!!! product look good............... :D
And if you want to look at German test sites, on this one they aren't even listed in the top 10............... :eek:

http://www.caseumbau.de/index.php?page=charts/charts&kat=watercool
 
As was previously sort've linked to:
g4compare.gif


Or check out the interactive thingamajigger for more blocks...
http://www.procooling.com/html/pro_testing.php
 
Of note there is that the Procooling tests on that graph for the TDX do not use any of the nozzles. If you use one of the #4 or #5 nozzles it makes the TDX perform better (assuming you have the pump to handle it), sort of a pseudo impingement design.
 
Top Nurse said:
Hmm... I suppose you might want to go here: http://www.watercoolplanet.de/index.php?open=4&show=1&sort=differenz&order=asc&pagenum=1

Are these good enough numbers for you or are they somehow suspect in your opinion? They show the Cuplex Pro (an older Aqua Computer design) with a measly 6mm ID tube beating out a whole lot of blocks with much bigger tubes. Now how would that be possible? Hmm...perhaps it has a really good design that takes advantage of all those neat little engineering tweaks based on physics, and number crunching. Yes? No? ;)
Click to expand...


Numbers are great TN, however the key point to what I said was a "Scientifically sound well executed" test. By scientifically sound it needs to (just as Cathar said) account for all variables reasonably possible to eliminate from the testing. There is only really one site IMO that does this, and that is Procooling. I think most of us here would love to see some of the AC blocks get tested by Procooling, so the question you have to ask yourself is why doesn't AC send some blocks to them to get tested? Perhaps AC is more afraid of the results than we are?

P.S. I dont believe that last comment to be true, it was just a little sarcastic remark. I am pretty sure AC could care less about the US market right now which is why they dont care about Procooling. I understand that if procooling were to test a block they would have to get it loaned to them by someone.
 
Erasmus354 said:
Of note there is that the Procooling tests on that graph for the TDX do not use any of the nozzles. If you use one of the #4 or #5 nozzles it makes the TDX perform better (assuming you have the pump to handle it), sort of a pseudo impingement design.
Click to expand...
PH said that the performance of the TDX with the #4 was almost the same as the RBX and want worth adding it to the graph for that reason.
nozzlecomp.gif
 
Xylo said:
As was previously sort've linked to:
g4compare.gif


Or check out the interactive thingamajigger for more blocks...
http://www.procooling.com/html/pro_testing.php
Click to expand...

I've never really studied that graph before, but there's a few interesting things to point out:

1) A little over 2 yrs after the release of the White Water and Maze 4 blocks, the WW is still a viable cooling solution ( <2C diff from Storm @ typ hi-flo 1-1.5 gal/min), and the Maze 4 is the worst.

2) The Swiftech, Innovatech and AquaJoe blocks are flow agnostic.....they perform quite well in low AND high flow loops.

3) All of the DD and Cathars blocks are high flow blocks and perform best between 1-1.5 gal/min.

4) The Storm block is the best performing block in this comparison.
 
Bio-Hazard said:
And as you pointed out in another thread, they tested it over a year ago as is the same with most blocks in their list. Oh goodness, lets stay on the same sheet of music all the time and not when it makes your !!!!!! product look good. And if you want to look at German test sites, on this one they aren't even listed in the top 10.

http://www.caseumbau.de/index.php?page=charts/charts&kat=watercool
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Interesting site. ;) Seems like the only AC product they tested was a really old Cuplex. Also there are no DD, Swiftech, or Little River blocks their as well. So you are really making my point for me. :D This whole thing of testing waterblocks depends on what test methods are used and who is doing the testing. Everybody has their axes to grind so until eveyone gets on the same page and agrees to test under the exact same conditions then comparisons of tests from site to site are practically meaningless, which also throws into question the results of ANY tests.
 
Top Nurse said:
Interesting site. ;) Seems like the only AC product they tested was a really old Cuplex. Also there are no DD, Swiftech, or Little River blocks their as well. So you are really making my point for me. :D This whole thing of testing waterblocks depends on what test methods are used and who is doing the testing. Everybody has their axes to grind so until eveyone gets on the same page and agrees to test under the exact same conditions then comparisons of tests from site to site are practically meaningless, which also throws into question the results of ANY tests.
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Okay, let's use some reasoning here. If Aqua blocks really were that great, then they would want it to be tested by a reputable site over hear. Why you say, because you can sell far more!!! But no, that is not the case. They don't send for reviews. Hmm, makes one wonder now doesn't it. Now I wonder why Caseumbau have not recieved anything but an old Cuplex? Hmm...
 
Here's an idea: why doesn't someone send BillA a bunch of AC, Innovtek, and other
Produktbezeichnung for "Testing & Evaluation Purposes". It would be nice to see if all the shiny surfaces, smooth lines, and purty lights are woth the substantial price premium :cool:
 
I'm pretty sure that BillA has already tested all the blocks that even come close to the Storms performance................ :cool: Even though he's not the friendliest guy out there and he is also known for not putting up with bull crap answers without the facts to back them up, he was that way before he started working for Swiftech (yes I remember when he didn't). And I bet you he will be the same way long after he's gone from there. It's kind of like put up of shutup. He's one of the most knowledgeable in the water cooling world, he's been there from the begining as have some others on the forums................ :cool:
 
Top Nurse said:
Interesting site. ;) Seems like the only AC product they tested was a really old Cuplex. Also there are no DD, Swiftech, or Little River blocks their as well. So you are really making my point for me. :D This whole thing of testing waterblocks depends on what test methods are used and who is doing the testing. Everybody has their axes to grind so until eveyone gets on the same page and agrees to test under the exact same conditions then comparisons of tests from site to site are practically meaningless, which also throws into question the results of ANY tests.
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Not true, this is the whole reason why lots of us want a scientifically sound test. I scientifically sound and accurate test will remove variables and rate the blocks based upon scientifically repeatable data. Such as the pressure drop, C/W and other figures which can be found even if another reviewer is not using the exact same setup. So long as you do a good job of removing the variables and measuring your data that is all that is needed. Sites do not need to all use the same exact testing method and the same exact testing gear, you simply need to get rid of the variables and measure everything in common scientific terms.

Too often sites will get a whole bunch of heatsinks or waterblocks, plop them all into the same system and measure the temperature of the on board temp probe. The problem with that is the +- 5C margin of error those temperature probes have, making a valid comparison next to impossible.
 
Those thermal test rigs only cost a few thousand dollars to buy, less if you design and put it together like Lee did. There aren't to many sites/revieers that can come up with that much cash for a test stand.
I have a idea, TN can go buy one and test all the newest blocks to see where they stand............ :D
 
Bio-Hazard said:
Those thermal test rigs only cost a few thousand dollars to buy, less if you design and put it together like Lee did. There aren't to many sites/revieers that can come up with that much cash for a test stand.
I have a idea, TN can go buy one and test all the newest blocks to see where they stand............ :D
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LOL, I too, think that is an excellent I dea! ;)
 
I hate to interrupt such fine stabbing among members, but to go slightly off topic for a moment, I already went to pro cooling and can't find any test on say the top 10 or 20 GPU water block tests (I went under Review section), could someone point out if there is such a test done on 6800 series card?

And please continue the stabbing after anyone post the link of GPU cooling tests (on 6800)
 
plywood99 said:
Okay, let's use some reasoning here. If Aqua blocks really were that great, then they would want it to be tested by a reputable site over hear. Why you say, because you can sell far more!!! But no, that is not the case. They don't send for reviews. Hmm, makes one wonder now doesn't it. Now I wonder why Caseumbau have not recieved anything but an old Cuplex? Hmm...
Click to expand...

I think you are barking up the wrong tree. ;) If Aqua Computer is selling their stuff faster than they can make it why would they be interested in having somebody test it? They are selling the stuff faster than they can make it...

Now as to why AC hasn't sent any to ProCooling to be tested it should be obvious. They haven't tested anything since about November of last year. Since I am privy to some of the goings on I should mention that ProCooling agreed to test a Zalman Reserator Plus and was sent one a while back. No test has been done to date that I know about. I suggested to Sharka that they send an XT over to System Cooling instead as they seem interested in doing the testing and reviews. So who knows...
 
SpoogeMonkey said:
Here's an idea: why doesn't someone send BillA a bunch of AC, Innovtek, and other
Produktbezeichnung for "Testing & Evaluation Purposes". It would be nice to see if all the shiny surfaces, smooth lines, and purty lights are woth the substantial price premium :cool:
Click to expand...

Sounds to me like you are proposing that the fox be left to look over the chickens. ;)
 
Happy Hopping said:
I hate to interrupt such fine stabbing among members, but to go slightly off topic for a moment, I already went to pro cooling and can't find any test on say the top 10 or 20 GPU water block tests (I went under Review section), could someone point out if there is such a test done on 6800 series card?

And please continue the stabbing after anyone post the link of GPU cooling tests (on 6800)
Click to expand...

Procooling doesn't really test GPU blocks afaik. They mainly stick to cpu blocks.
 
Bio-Hazard said:
I'm pretty sure that BillA has already tested all the blocks that even come close to the Storms performance.
Click to expand...

Well if that were the case why hasn't he bid high and shown his royal flush?
 
Top Nurse said:
Sounds to me like you are proposing that the fox be left to look over the chickens. ;)
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Then perhaps AC should perform their own scientific testing. Swiftech provides lots of performance data on all of their equipment, hell most retailers take the performance graphs and post it next to the product so people know what they are getting when they buy it. Maybe AC should look into doing the same. I dont doubt that AC is selling stuff faster than they can make it, and that they probably have no want or need to perform tests on their equipment. But the fact that there aren't many, if any, scientifically acurate tests of AC gear makes it hard to recommend it based upon anything other than looks and vague performance figures.

I am not saying that AC gear is bad, or poor performing. I am simply saying it cannot be claimed to be the best until that is proven in some acceptable fashion.
 
Top Nurse said:
I think you are barking up the wrong tree. ;) If Aqua Computer is selling their stuff faster than they can make it why would they be interested in having somebody test it? They are selling the stuff faster than they can make it...

Now as to why AC hasn't sent any to ProCooling to be tested it should be obvious. They haven't tested anything since about November of last year. Since I am privy to some of the goings on I should mention that ProCooling agreed to test a Zalman Reserator Plus and was sent one a while back. No test has been done to date that I know about. I suggested to Sharka that they send an XT over to System Cooling instead as they seem interested in doing the testing and reviews. So who knows...
Click to expand...


Derek at procooling just recently mentioned the Zalman and said he never recieved it.

As for Aqua, I guess from your reasoning they would not want a decent review, then when it comes out what their performance is really like, they would take a hit in sales.

Come on now, what company thinking they have an outstanding product, would not rush samples to sites to be reviewed?
 
Top Nurse said:
Sounds to me like you are proposing that the fox be left to look over the chickens. ;)
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Which is precisely why he doesn't release any of his data.

It's highly inappropriate for cooling product makers to be releasing comparative data with competing products, and then expect anyone else to view it as anything better than merely biased marketing material. It does more harm than good. The testbed and procedures may be the soundest on the planet, but if there is the slightest hint of a conflict of interest then belief in the data can be rendered near useless, regardless of the best intentions and integrity of the person(s) involved.
 
Erasmus354 said:
Then perhaps AC should perform their own scientific testing.

I am not saying that AC gear is bad, or poor performing. I am simply saying it cannot be claimed to be the best until that is proven in some acceptable fashion.
Click to expand...

What makes you think they don't test everbody's blocks they can lay their hands on? I certainly would as it is easier to modify a better design than it is to come up with your own. Not saying that they do that as it appears they have pretty original designs. I guess they just feel no particular reason to release the information on their blocks as Cathar mentioned. Also I suspect that they are not particularly interested in being compared to people who's interest doesn't run parallel to their own philosophy of good silent cooling with good looks. Everything has a price and their designs run congruent to their own cooling philosophy.
 
Top Nurse said:
What makes you think they don't test everbody's blocks they can lay their hands on? I certainly would as it is easier to modify a better design than it is to come up with your own. Not saying that they do that as it appears they have pretty original designs. I guess they just feel no particular reason to release the information on their blocks as Cathar mentioned. Also I suspect that they are not particularly interested in being compared to people who's interest doesn't run parallel to their own philosophy of good silent cooling with good looks. Everything has a price and their designs run congruent to their own cooling philosophy.
Click to expand...

This is where your arguments start to make no sense. The waterblock really has no bounds upon how quiet a system is. That is all dependent upon the radiator/fans and the pump used. With pumps like the DDC and D5 which are both quite powerful and quite quiet there is not much separating the ultra high performance from the quiet. Also, as the testing with blocks like the STORM have shown, blocks that perform very well at high flow can also perform very well at low flow.

So therefore all that is left in your argument for "AC cooling philosophy" is looks, which is completely subjective, and really has no bounds for discussing the performance of something. When trying to decide upon a waterblock I think the progression should be : Chose your price range, then look at the best performing blocks in your price range. After looking at the blocks chose the one that you like best, if you want to sacrifice performance for looks that is the individuals prerogative. When I try to help people I try to point them in the direction of the highest performing stuff to suit their needs, knowing that information on "flashy alternatives" is readily available and if they feel the looks justify the performance drop then so be it.

Pretty much all watercooling gear will suit basic users needs of cooling any processor at stock speed. The vast majority of which can even cool any stock setup very quietly as well. If that was all we were going to measure stuff on then there would be no need to get anything better than a classic Maze4 or Maze3, as those blocks move heat away from any current processor more than adequately, and when paired with a good 2x120mm rad with silent fans and a quiet pump makes for a silent system.
 
Erasmus354 said:
This is where your arguments start to make no sense. The waterblock really has no bounds upon how quiet a system is. That is all dependent upon the radiator/fans and the pump used. With pumps like the DDC and D5 which are both quite powerful and quite quiet there is not much separating the ultra high performance from the quiet. Also, as the testing with blocks like the STORM have shown, blocks that perform very well at high flow can also perform very well at low flow.

So therefore all that is left in your argument for "AC cooling philosophy" is looks, which is completely subjective, and really has no bounds for discussing the performance of something. When trying to decide upon a waterblock I think the progression should be : Chose your price range, then look at the best performing blocks in your price range. After looking at the blocks chose the one that you like best, if you want to sacrifice performance for looks that is the individuals prerogative. When I try to help people I try to point them in the direction of the highest performing stuff to suit their needs, knowing that information on "flashy alternatives" is readily available and if they feel the looks justify the performance drop then so be it.

Pretty much all watercooling gear will suit basic users needs of cooling any processor at stock speed. The vast majority of which can even cool any stock setup very quietly as well. If that was all we were going to measure stuff on then there would be no need to get anything better than a classic Maze4 or Maze3, as those blocks move heat away from any current processor more than adequately, and when paired with a good 2x120mm rad with silent fans and a quiet pump makes for a silent system.
Click to expand...

QFT!
 
Top Nurse said:
Sounds to me like you are proposing that the fox be left to look over the chickens. ;)
Click to expand...

Yeah, I keep forgetting Bill is a Swiftech employee now.

Back on topic: Is the Storm the best cpu block? When compared to the most popular/widely available US products, I think thats been proven, even if only by 1-2c. Is it better than AC, Innovatek, or other foreign products? That I guess is what is being debated.

Personally I have no problems with Aqua Comp. stuff. For me it's just to expensive, BUT, it does look damn nice. The Europeans have always focused on "designer looks", and the build quality is great also. And, this also comes for a price.

BTW: Feeding Frenzy does look very nice. But I think what everyone here is getting at is, they're tired of hearing AC gear be defended to the death as the best thing since sliced bread.
Everyone has their own personal favorites, and I think most will recommend alternatives to their favorites as a 2nd, 3rd choice as well. Let's just not turn this into one of those intel/amd, nvidia/ati type of phanboi arguments :D
 
Erasmus354 said:
Pretty much all watercooling gear will suit basic users needs of cooling any processor at stock speed. The vast majority of which can even cool any stock setup very quietly as well. If that was all we were going to measure stuff on then there would be no need to get anything better than a classic Maze4 or Maze3, as those blocks move heat away from any current processor more than adequately, and when paired with a good 2x120mm rad with silent fans and a quiet pump makes for a silent system.
Click to expand...

Well, let me ask the obvious question, you mean all those tests at pro cooling is really meant for people who Over clock? If you are using regular CPU speed, just grab a half decent one and be done with it?
 
Erasmus354 said:
Procooling doesn't really test GPU blocks afaik. They mainly stick to cpu blocks.
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Can you provide w/ an alternative web site w/ un-bias review on GPU water block tests?
 
SpoogeMonkey said:
Back on topic: Is the Storm the best cpu block? When compared to the most popular/widely available US products, I think thats been proven, even if only by 1-2c. Is it better than AC, Innovatek, or other foreign products? That I guess is what is being debated.

Personally I have no problems with Aqua Comp. stuff. For me it's just to expensive, BUT, it does look damn nice. The Europeans have always focused on "designer looks", and the build quality is great also. And, this also comes for a price.
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To be fair, German workmanship should have a fair degree of quality, in general. And I can't see how can Aqua be expensive if Storm is over $200.

Shark Computer claims to be the "leading distributor" of Aqua, why doesn't Pro cooling ask them to loan them a CPU Aqua block for testing? Put them on the spot.

What country made the storm and how many year warranty?
 
Actually the Storm block itself retails for ~$75. It's now made in the US by Swiftech, but was designed by Cathar in Australia.
I just searched through all my manuals, and I really can't say how long the warranty is.....but if it's anything like my original block, the White Water which is still going strong after over 2 yrs.....this will last forever as well.
 
Happy Hopping said:
Well, let me ask the obvious question, you mean all those tests at pro cooling is really meant for people who Over clock? If you are using regular CPU speed, just grab a half decent one and be done with it?
Click to expand...

If running at stock, just buy one of the better heat-pipe heatsinks (ThermalRight XP-90C comes to mind) and stick a fan on it at ultra low speeds and be done with it. Why bother with water-cooling at all?

Water-cooling is about marrying low-noise, low-temperatures, and high-overclocks. It allows you to achieve all 3 at once. Where the "choice" comes into it depends on how much anyone favors one of those 3 criteria. Appearance is a supplementary twist, but is highly objective and cannot be "measured".
 
http://www.employees.org/~slf/lrwb/

Really? Because the above said Swifttech doesn't make G5. As to the price, on that ebay bid, buy it now price is $280. The Reserve Not Met price is sitting at $179 w/ someone you know in this thread being the highest bidder. So it's hard to believe the street price is $75
 
Happy Hopping said:
http://www.employees.org/~slf/lrwb/

Really? Because the above said Swifttech doesn't make G5. As to the price, on that ebay bid, buy it now price is $280. The Reserve Not Met price is sitting at $179 w/ someone you know in this thread being the highest bidder. So it's hard to believe the street price is $75
Click to expand...

You talking about the copper-based Storm/G4 (the one that Swiftech now manufacture as the STORM), or the Storm/G5 (enhanced internal design + silver-based)?
 
Cathar said:
If running at stock, just buy one of the better heat-pipe heatsinks (ThermalRight XP-90C comes to mind) and stick a fan on it at ultra low speeds and be done with it. Why bother with water-cooling at all?

Water-cooling is about marrying low-noise, low-temperatures, and high-overclocks. It allows you to achieve all 3 at once. Where the "choice" comes into it depends on how much anyone favors one of those 3 criteria. Appearance is a supplementary twist, but is highly objective and cannot be "measured".
Click to expand...

I don't care much about appearance because I don't have one of those plexi glass case, I can't see the inside. And for that matter, even for the ones who have a transparent case, it's a mid tower anyway, they have to duck down to the ground to view it, what's the point?

But I can't stand the fan noise even if it is low speed, there are already cooling fan for the PSU, cooing fan for the remaining components, so if I can kill the CPU and GPU fan, I'll do it. Having said that, what would be a good CPU water cooler at regular speed P4-2.8GHz?
 
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