So nVidia is completely unchallenged this generation?

I

InorganicMatter

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7800 vs X1800
7900 vs X1900
7950 vs X1950
8800 vs nothing
8900 vs R600

nVidia's die shrink comes at the same time R600 does. So does nVidia go completely unchallenged this Christmas? Doesn't ATI even have a refresh or something?
 
A refresh wouldn't cut it for ATI. I was also wondering what ATI's responce to the 8xxx's were. I guess they just.... ran outta numbers ... ;)
 
Who cares, an X1950XTX is fast enough for everything these days. Maybe not to the enthusiast who games at 2560x1600, but for the regular guy thats only 1680x1050 will full eye candy.

I do agree however, that ATI's R600 release time is a bit bad considering NV is already selling several hundred 8800s.
 
i believe the X1950 is supposed to be the refresh to hold ATi over until their next big release. they implemented GDDR4 in it as well, so its supposed to bridge the gap. so, technically the G80 (currently) has nothing to counter it from ATi, but the X1950 is their refresh to hold over.

the 8800 series cards are amazing but dont count ATi out yet. R600 will definitely hold its own.
 
7800 = X1800
7900 = X1900
7950 < X1950
8800 > X1950
8900 ? R600

That's really what it comes down too. X1950XTX was put out to hold the fort while R600 is prepped. Nvidia's 7950's were like a hold over to 8800, but 8800 came dang fast partly because X1950 was better than 7950, and partly because PS3/8800 research were probably co-created.

8800 obviously out does the X1950XTX, but I'm sure the X1950XTX wasn't made to "beat" the 8800, just be an alternative. The real showdown between the two will come when R600 debuts. Who knows if the 8900s will be ready then, or even if the R600 will best the 8800s?
 
Dayvon said:
and partly because PS3/8800 research were probably co-created.
Click to expand...

From what I've read, RSX is basically a 7800 w/ 8 rops and 128bit memory with a few
console-centric design features. G80 and R600 are undoubtedly more advanced than RSX and Xenos.

But in a closed box console environment you can accomplish a lot more with less. For example Sega's best arcade hardware, demonstrated in games like
Virtua Fighter 5, is running the equivalent of only a 6800 class gpu. In fact I think it literally uses a 6800GT.

When it launches, I think R600 will have a low and high end much like G80.
Nvidia will get the jump on early adopters but the big push will occur next year when
vista is rolled out.
 
ATI is strengthening their mainstream and low end range with the release of the X1650 PRO and XT and the X1300 XT, while NVIDIA is strengthening their high end.

I'm not sure how well it will work for them, because NVIDIA already has strong offerings in the mainstream market segment.
 
That's_Corporate said:
You can't compare a DX9 card to a DX10 card.
Well, you can, but it's apples to oranges.
Click to expand...

nobody is trying to compare 8800 DX10 performance to X1950XTX DX9 performance

it's not just a DX10 card, it beats every other DX9 card in DX9 apps, being DX10 compliant is just a bit of future proofing, so for now we can't even consider it a DX10 card, we will see how it performs in DX10 apps soon enough, but for now it is the fastest DX9 card by a long shot, and not only that, it has better IQ than any other card out
 
No. The X1900 does not equal the 7900. Here is a revised chart:

7800 < X1800
7900 < X1900
8800 > X1950
8900 ? R600
 
Dayvon said:
7800 = X1800
7900 = X1900
7950 < X1950
8800 > X1950
8900 ? R600

That's really what it comes down too. X1950XTX was put out to hold the fort while R600 is prepped. Nvidia's 7950's were like a hold over to 8800, but 8800 came dang fast partly because X1950 was better than 7950, and partly because PS3/8800 research were probably co-created.

8800 obviously out does the X1950XTX, but I'm sure the X1950XTX wasn't made to "beat" the 8800, just be an alternative. The real showdown between the two will come when R600 debuts. Who knows if the 8900s will be ready then, or even if the R600 will best the 8800s?
Click to expand...


ehh...you on drugs?

it was more like:

7800 < X1800
7900 < X1900
7950 > X1950
8800 > X1950
8900 ? R600
 
chinesepiratefood said:
ehh...you on drugs?

it was more like:

7800 < X1800
7900 < X1900
7950 > X1950
8800 > X1950
8900 ? R600
Click to expand...

Unfortunately the only reason the 7950 was faster was because it was two 7900s welded and taped together. If you look at the 7950GT vs X1950XT(or even X1900XT for that matter) the X1950s are faster. The X1950XTX held the title of fastest single card on the market, hopefully the R600 will be more of the same and a tad bit cooler. My X1950 runs really hot. 68C idle.
 
That's_Corporate said:
You can't compare a DX9 card to a DX10 card.
Well, you can, but it's apples to oranges.
Click to expand...

That doesn't make any sense at all. Of course you can compare them. You just run the same benchies on each card, or however you want to benchmark gaming performance.
 
shoman24v said:
Christmas doesn't increase sales of $669 video cards.
Click to expand...
You'd be surprised. People buy cars for Christmas. I have already read in the forums several people calling this a "Xmas gift for themselves".

If these start showing up in Dell machines, then they will also end up under the tree of the non-enthusiast yet too much money crowd.

Launching this card for the holiday sales season will net them a lot of cash. Combine that with the fact that absolutely nothing else out there compares to it and they practically have a monopoly on the high end video card market (for now at least).
 
Endurancevm said:
Unfortunately the only reason the 7950 was faster was because it was two 7900s welded and taped together. If you look at the 7950GT vs X1950XT(or even X1900XT for that matter) the X1950s are faster. The X1950XTX held the title of fastest single card on the market, hopefully the R600 will be more of the same and a tad bit cooler. My X1950 runs really hot. 68C idle.
Click to expand...

actually no, the 7950GX2 was the fastest single card, the fact that Nvidia was able to put a dual GPU single card into production and beat everything else out was just an accomplishment, not "cheating" as your post suggests, but it was (after the initial prototypes) a single card, early models were two PCB's joined, but in the end, fastest single card was the 7950GX2

unfortunately in the IQ dept. ATI has had NV covered for some time, but now even that has changed
 
Endurancevm said:
Unfortunately the only reason the 7950 was faster was because it was two 7900s welded and taped together.
Click to expand...
Just like when those bastards at AMD glued another core onto their CPU. Buncha hacks. :p
 
The 7950 has problems but it is still a good card for the money.
Personaly I still like the X1950XTX better due to AF and HDR AA.
This Gen was a wash up with Nvidia coming out first and ATi coming out later with a harder hitter (High End). Performance wise the 7950 is better than the X1950 and IQ wise the X1950 is better than the 7950.
It was all up to what you wanted.
And calm down people the 8800GTX just came out We dont know when ATi is launching.
If the R600 comes out in a week is it still "bad timing" as some of you are saying.
Lets not take the Inqs information to heart so much.
 
{NG}Fidel said:
The 7950 has problems but it is still a good card for the money.
Personaly I still like the X1950XTX better due to AF and HDR AA.
This Gen was a wash up with Nvidia coming out first and ATi coming out later with a harder hitter (High End). Performance wise the 7950 is better than the X1950 and IQ wise the X1950 is better than the 7950.
It was all up to what you wanted.
And calm down people the 8800GTX just came out We dont know when ATi is launching.
If the R600 comes out in a week is it still "bad timing" as some of you are saying.
Lets not take the Inqs information to heart so much.
Click to expand...

if R600 came out in a week, it wouldn't be bad timing anymore.......but it isn't, so it is.....
:D
 
And who do you have on the inside telling you when it is or isnt coming out?
Thats my point.
In 2 months if it isnt out by then anything later is bad timing.
 
They may be actually unchallenged, but you have to think, with the next gen right around the corner (speaking in terms of R600, ATi has to come up with something for DirectX10), do you really thinks consumers will just flop out a 600 here and there every, what, two months?

I was going to build a C2D rig, X1900XT and all, I took one day to long, and out pops the GeForce 8 series.

With the holiday season around, prices will be unbearable for the average Joe.

To be honest, Anyone who wants ATi's high-end, has one, of some sort.

I think ATi will come up with something by January, which to be honest, isn't to far away.

This is coming from an old nVIDIA fan-boy, until he saw the X1900XT, as he was about to buy the 7900GTO.

End of the story:
ATi will be unchallenged for about 2 months, until Vista is released. Hopefully there cards won't cost a weeks salary, and heat up the room by, oh say, 7 degrees coming out of a box.

:)
 
PRIME1 said:
Just like when those bastards at AMD glued another core onto their CPU. Buncha hacks. :p
Click to expand...
I love it. Thank you, sir. No amount of eloquence on my part could possibly give perspective to the GX2 issue as well as you just did in one sentence.

Endurancevm said:
Who cares, an X1950XTX is fast enough for everything these days. Maybe not to the enthusiast who games at 2560x1600, but for the regular guy thats only 1680x1050 will full eye candy.
Click to expand...
This comment is not nearly as amusing. There are dozens of people here clamoring for the 8800 series cards, and very few of them are gaming in 2560x1600. They're not clamoring for the black PCB -- they're clamoring for the absolutely unparalleled performance.

But, all things said, your attitude is interesting. Who cares about the advancement of graphics? Who cares about framerates in Extraction Point, Oblivion, Call of Honor...
 
That's_Corporate said:
You can't compare a DX9 card to a DX10 card.
Well, you can, but it's apples to oranges.
Click to expand...

OK, I am getting tired of references to the new 8800 series as "DX10" cards. Yes, MS has a new API in DX10. Yes, NVIDIA has built the 8800 to run DX10, but it is much more than that.

If you mean by apples and oranges that these new cards are a wholesale change in the architecture of the GPU, then you are correct. That doesn't mean you cannot comapre them, since it supports DX9 as well. It may not be a fair contest, but they are comparable in that respect.

We all like to see comparisons of the new Intel CPU's vs AMD's, and those architectures are markedly different. That doesn't make the comparison any less valuable, since it drives purchasing decisions (like my own).
 
Combover said:
If you mean by apples and oranges that these new cards are a wholesale change in the architecture of the GPU, then you are correct. That doesn't mean you cannot comapre them, since it supports DX9 as well.
Click to expand...
What's worth noting is how the architecture is defined when shaders are non-unified. Essentially, when running DX9 applications, G80 is a DX9 GPU. If that makes it an orange, I must have slipped into some other dimension.
 
phide said:
What's worth noting is how the architecture is defined when shaders are non-unified. Essentially, when running DX9 applications, G80 is a DX9 GPU. If that makes it an orange, I must have slipped into some other dimension.
Click to expand...

I believe what everyone is missing is that when DX9 cards first came out, before the API, they were used for DirectX 8, correct?

As of right now, the G80 can run DirectX 10, DirectX 9, DirectX 8, the whole 9 yards.

The G80 can be considered as a DX9 card, but that isn't it's sole purpose.
The G80 is a next gen card, that run's previous gen better, and no one knows how it will run next gen API, as it is not out yet.

Banana's now join the fight.
 
ATI will come out later with a better product. Same thing that usually happens.
 
phide said:
What's worth noting is how the architecture is defined when shaders are non-unified. Essentially, when running DX9 applications, G80 is a DX9 GPU. If that makes it an orange, I must have slipped into some other dimension.
Click to expand...


DX10 is different than previous generations, manufacturers must meet certain criteria to be DX10 compliant, Nvidia did just that, AND made it flexible enough to run DX9 faster than anything else out, not a small feat, G80 is basically a completely new architecture, it isnt a G70 with unified architecture tweaked to run DX10.......

educate thyself

http://www.beyond3d.com/reviews/nvidia/g80-arch/
 
I never said it was a DX10-capable G70. I'm not sure where you're going here.

We were discussing how ATi's DX9 cards compare to the 8800, and, in terms of how they function in DX9, they are essentially identical. So, in DX9 scenarios, they are both precisely apples, regardless of DX10 capabilities, and how the GPU functions with DX10.
 
phide said:
What's worth noting is how the architecture is defined when shaders are non-unified. Essentially, when running DX9 applications, G80 is a DX9 GPU. If that makes it an orange, I must have slipped into some other dimension.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I might have not been clear. I meant that it is an orange when comparing the GPU architecture to prior GPU's. My point was that it is perfectly capable of running DX9, and for that reason, comparisons with other GPU's is not only warranted, but needed.

nobody_here said:
DX10 is different than previous generations, manufacturers must meet certain criteria to be DX10 compliant, Nvidia did just that,
Click to expand...

I thought about touching on that. One significant change is how the memory is pooled virtually for DX10, or that's the way I understand it.

Anyway, as for ATI's (is it AMD now?) challenger, I am sure they have something on the horizon. I haven't been paying much attention to the rumor mill on ATI, but I am genuinely curious if they have a "wholesale" change on the horizion like NVIDIA just let loose.
 
phide said:
I never said it was a DX10-capable G70. I'm not sure where you're going here.

We were discussing how ATi's DX9 cards compare to the 8800, and, in terms of how they function in DX9, they are essentially identical. So, in DX9 scenarios, they are both precisely apples, regardless of DX10 capabilities, and how the GPU functions with DX10.
Click to expand...

Maybe you'd like to compare a x850xt to a fx5950u while you're at it aswell..
Or maybe a x1950xtx to a 6800u...
:rolleyes:
 
Until someone pits the 8800 against Nvidia's last flag ship...then everything will change and people will say you cant compare the two because one is next gen. Right now it's fine though because its next gen against ATI old flag ship
 
Arcygenical said:
Christmas is the only reason I'm getting mine...
Click to expand...


Christmas does increase sales of high end video cards and always has...you think people stop wanting video cards around christmas? Or nobody wants a free 8800??? hell for alot of people its the only way they will ever get one of those bad boys, Myself included.
 
Lets take a second and step back here...it would be worth Nvidia's attention that they have an opportunity here:

1. Hold the high end of the market + early adopters until R600 is released, and then

2. (hopefully) Lower prices to be competitive with R600 when it's released (even if R600 blows away 8800, nvidia can try to have better or similar price vs performance), and lets not forget

3. Refresh shortly after R600, with updated product line to better compete with R600.

With all this in mind, I'm basically crossing my fingers that competition drives prices down to acceptable levels, so us "$300/year upgraders" can get in there with guns blazing.
 
Combover said:
Sorry, I might have not been clear. I meant that it is an orange when comparing the GPU architecture to prior GPU's. My point was that it is perfectly capable of running DX9, and for that reason, comparisons with other GPU's is not only warranted, but needed.
Click to expand...
Gotcha. It seems like a couple ladders got knocked in the way there, and perhaps the subject strayed slightly (that, or I didn't understand the subject at all, which is totally possible).

You're right about the architectures being extremely different, but in many ways, they are also quite similar. We're still pushing data through ALUs, we're still doing our MAD and MUL operations, we're just using new ways to get that data to the right place. They're certainly not apples and oranges, but they're both fruit (well, whatever that means anyway).

Oh4Sh0 said:
Maybe you'd like to compare a x850xt to a fx5950u while you're at it aswell..
Click to expand...
Are both cards capable of rendering D3D9 games similarly? Therefore, I think a comparison with DX9 games is totally valid. It's up to the end user to determine how to interpret these comparisons.

This argument pops up sometimes, and I don't really understand why. There's something about comparisons that genuinely frightens people. I can easily compare a log to a car, for instance. They have similarities and also extreme differences. It's up to you to determine which one you're going to try and drive.
 
lol funny thread

The 8800's have been out what two days? and its being asked if Nvidia is unchallenged.

I think a few people have not been around long enough to see a generation change before.

Give it a few months, "then" ask this question.
 
Endurancevm said:
Unfortunately the only reason the 7950 was faster was because it was two 7900s welded and taped together. If you look at the 7950GT vs X1950XT(or even X1900XT for that matter) the X1950s are faster. The X1950XTX held the title of fastest single card on the market, hopefully the R600 will be more of the same and a tad bit cooler. My X1950 runs really hot. 68C idle.
Click to expand...


You know? Before I got to the bottom of your post and read your sig, I already knew what graphics card company from which you own a product, and thus, who you support. Really quite amusing.
 
Battleneter2 said:
lol funny thread

The 8800's have been out what two days? and its being asked if Nvidia is unchallenged.

I think a few people have not been around long enough to see a generation change before.

Give it a few months, "then" ask this question.
Click to expand...

But some people eat, sleep and shit video cards all their lives. When the chance to wave your flag in victory comes along, they take it loud and proud.
 
I'm sorry, but a 7950gx2 beats a x1950, else I would have gotten an ATi card this time around.
 
Spoudazo said:
I'm sorry, but a 7950gx2 beats a x1950, else I would have gotten an ATi card this time around.
Click to expand...

Cept it is way more expensive, has lower IQ, and needs two cores to get the job done.
 
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