So... xbox 360 getting long in the tooth due to no blu ray?

T

tybert7

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With games out and bigger ones coming where disc swapping will be a necessity for the larger games... does that not make any larger game for the xbox 360 less desirable?


Already there was talk about games on a single disk like dragon age, where the textures suffered, likely due in part to simply having less space on the disk.




hd-dvd is pretty much dead, but why couldn't microsoft get enough support to get the format some legs for their own consoles, or future consoles?


If blu ray is the only HD disc game in town, the royalties would seem to be immense from a direct competitor in a competitive device, so what is Microsoft going to do?



Even if you think it is not a big issue now, what about the next generation? a dvd is not going to cut it for space on certain types of games, and having to swap discs vs not bothering with the hassle would tilt people toward sony.
 
MS could get around multiple-discs by packaging some of the content with the game as redeem codes to download from Xbox Live. Forza 3 had this kind of setup with some codes to get some extra cars. The move was probably to get more new sales but a similar model could work.

Consider the PC where patches that include new content are now hundreds of MB in size and some people are willing to download 6GB + games through Steam, expecting gamers to accept large downloads to keep the same graphics quality as the PS3 isn't particularly unreasonable.
 
There be a difference though.
Anyone who uses Steam knows beforehand that they're gonna have to wait. We accept this, and are usually rewarded with great deals on the games themselves.
But for someone to buy a brick and mortar store copy of a console title to take said title home and still have to wait hours before they can play is a bit different.

Microsoft placed their bet in the hd player wars.... they lost. I also believe they said they'd NEVER use blueray. Rock and a hard place?:D

PC gaming FTW
 
though hd-dvd is dead as a movie format, couldnt ms still use it for their games?
otherwise, they either have to go digital or multiple dvds and install to HD.
 
Plague_Injected said:
MS could get around multiple-discs by packaging some of the content with the game as redeem codes to download from Xbox Live. Forza 3 had this kind of setup with some codes to get some extra cars. The move was probably to get more new sales but a similar model could work.

Consider the PC where patches that include new content are now hundreds of MB in size and some people are willing to download 6GB + games through Steam, expecting gamers to accept large downloads to keep the same graphics quality as the PS3 isn't particularly unreasonable.
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How about just put the core components of the game programming on the disc and have all the textures be paid DLC, double win! Sounds like a raw deal? I agree and I make no distinction between that and any other DLC scheme.
 
the hd-dvd add on drive was selling for what? $130 at the time?
Keep in mind, I'm no fanboi, I hate consoles. The beauty of the ps3 is that the blueray drive is built in. You don't have to purchase anything else and you can watch movies on it, IF you're willing to pay ~$30 a pop for them. Who is gonna pay an extra $130 for a drive that can't be used for anything else?

Okay, eating my words a little here, just did a quick google search and the hd drives can be found online anywhere from $27 - $126. But is this still supported? Well from what I can find it's been completely discontinued by MS so I'm gonna say no.
 
SubyJay said:
though hd-dvd is dead as a movie format, couldnt ms still use it for their games?
otherwise, they either have to go digital or multiple dvds and install to HD.
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What do they have to lose? And seeing as it's "dead" couldn't they get it for dirt cheap?
 
If you are talking about using either format for gaming, it's pretty pointless. The only PS3 game I can think off the top of my head that actually uses all that space is Metal Gear Solid 4. Otherwise all other games (at least the very very vast majority) can all fit on a DVD.

The reason every PS3 game comes in a Blu Ray disc is because it's mandated my Sony in hopes developers someday actually use some of that space.

All it does at this point is add to the cost of producing PS3 games.
 
Tylerdurdened said:
If you are talking about using either format for gaming, it's pretty pointless. The only PS3 game I can think off the top of my head that actually uses all that space is Metal Gear Solid 4. Otherwise all other games (at least the very very vast majority) can all fit on a DVD.

The reason every PS3 game comes in a Blu Ray disc is because it's mandated my Sony in hopes developers someday actually use some of that space.

All it does at this point is add to the cost of producing PS3 games.
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x2

and as far as MS using HD-DVD (or even bluray for that matter) for a game media, it makes absolutly no sense for them to do so in this generation. The HD drive was an add on unit that was only designed for movies (thats long since gone out of production) so forcing someone to buy it for one or two games is retarded. It makes far more sense to just use a second and/or third DVD if they need the extra space.

next generation, I can see them using something like bluray, but this generation, there is absolutly no need to. Games just don't come close to using all that space
 
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dr.stevil said:
x2

and as far as MS using HD-DVD (or ever bluray for that matter) for a game media, it makes absolutly no sense for them to do so in this generation. The HD drive was an add on unit that was only designed for movies (thats long since gone out of production) so forcing someone to buy it for one or two games is retarded. It makes far more sense to just use a second and/or third DVD if they need the extra space.

next generation, I can see them using something like bluray, but this generation, there is absolutly no need to. Games just don't come close to using all that space
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The real question is, since the next gen consoles are already in development what are they using? :D
 
kydsid said:
The real question is, since the next gen consoles are already in development what are they using? :D
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LOL I wouldn't expect MS to want to pay to license bluray, I'd be really surprised if they didn't use it.
 
Multi-disc games have been around for quite some time, even on the PC. That disc only gets changed when you transition beyond one phase of the game into the next. For example, in FF8, if you were 25% into the campaign, you just load a different disc to play the 25-50% section. Added something like 3 extra disc changes during the life of the game?

It's not like PS3 is loading the entire blu-ray disc onto the screen at once. Consoles have a limited amount of RAM, they can only pull a certain amount of data at a time to present to the player. T
 
I wouldnt put it past MS to develop some sort of proprietary disk format a.la Dreamcast GD-ROM for their next gen system in order to avoid Bluray.
 
kydsid said:
The real question is, since the next gen consoles are already in development what are they using? :D
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Microsoft has already said not to expect anything new until 2012 or later... Yea, I'm sure they're working on something- but they're more than likely putting most of their effort into Natal right now. They've got no new console plans anytime soon.

Games aren't utilizing the full potential of the console TODAY- why release something new?

Thus, 2010 (supposedly) we'll see Natal come out- that'll refresh the 360 experience for another 3-5 years to come. And it'll be freaking sweet. When the Wii first came out I was wondering how anyone could top it. Sony failed (their wand? LOL), but Microsoft is going to deliver a smash hit. Natal is actually turning out to be more accurate and responsive than the freaking Wiimotes were.


I think you'll sooner see 1TB drives in 360s to store multi-DVD games on before you'll see BluRay IMO... BluRay is still, in my opinion, a fad. Akin to BetaMax. Not to say it's not doing OK, I just don't think it'll ever take over the market like DVD did. We'll have something better before that happens. I think Microsoft might hold the same perception as well: hence why they haven't released a player yet.
 
Tylerdurdened said:
If you are talking about using either format for gaming, it's pretty pointless. The only PS3 game I can think off the top of my head that actually uses all that space is Metal Gear Solid 4. Otherwise all other games (at least the very very vast majority) can all fit on a DVD.
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How about Uncharted 2?

"First of all, we fill the Blu-ray 100 percent, we have no room left on this one. We have 25GB of data; we're using every single bit of it." -- Cristophe Balestra, Naughty Dog

Anyone who thinks it's "pretty useless" have no clue about the massive amounts of data AAA game-developers are trying to squeeze in on the disc.

dr.stevil said:
next generation, I can see them using something like bluray, but this generation, there is absolutly no need to. Games just don't come close to using all that space
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Sure, if we just ignore the titles that DO use the space, then sure, games just don't come close.. I guess. :-o
 
Its too late for MS this time around even if they wanted to use the HD-DVD player add-on. People would not be expected to buy a new ROM addon just to play a game. MS would not allow it. It would turn people off to the SKU. It hard enough to get a game out that forces you to use a HD since the arcade does not come with one.
 
I'd say it's getting long in the tooth because of the outdated hardware


TechieSooner said:
Microsoft has already said not to expect anything new until 2012 or later...
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They've said no such thing, I'd say 2011, 2012 at the latest


TechieSooner said:
Yea, I'm sure they're working on something- but they're more than likely putting most of their effort into Natal right now. They've got no new console plans anytime soon.
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They are 100% working on the new console, they've been working on it since before the 360 came out. Natal is nothing but a last ditch effort to grab the casual "wii" market, and will most certainly fail.

TechieSooner said:
Games aren't utilizing the full potential of the console TODAY- why release something new?
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I see people saying this all the time, where do you people think all this magic hardware is coming from. You aren't going to get some massive performance increase from coding efficiencies, especially 4 years after release.

TechieSooner said:
Thus, 2010 (supposedly) we'll see Natal come out- that'll refresh the 360 experience for another 3-5 years to come. And it'll be freaking sweet. When the Wii first came out I was wondering how anyone could top it. Sony failed (their wand? LOL), but Microsoft is going to deliver a smash hit. Natal is actually turning out to be more accurate and responsive than the freaking Wiimotes were.
Click to expand...

Wishful thinking, at best. Even if it is a hit, it'll be nothing but a gimmick and be stale after 6 months. Are you insane, you think MS is going to have the 360 last until 2015, really?
 
eloj said:
Sure, if we just ignore the titles that DO use the space, then sure, games just don't come close.. I guess. :-o
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of course there are some that do, but it's an exception, certainly not the norm.

hell, most PC games (which can handle much larger textures, higher polygon counts and more complex shader effects than the 360 and ps3) come on a single DVD. If there was a need for anything larger, you'd see it on that platform.

there are a small handful of games that require more than one DVD, but they're few and far between. It certainly doesnt make a larger disc necessary for this generation
 
The idea that the DVD drive in Xbox 360 presents a significant hindrance to most HD games is patent absurdity. By and large, for most games, DVD in its dual layered variant is plenty of space. There are the occasional few games that require bigger storage, but these are rather few and far between.

DVD will continue to be fine for most games this generation. A tiny handful will need more space and will either a) suffer as a result, b)extend to multiple disks, or c) download additional content to the hard drive.

Next gen, every console will likely need a BD Drive.
 
Ryan711 said:
They've said no such thing, I'd say 2011, 2012 at the latest
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Hey, smartass, the head of Microsoft's Interactive Entertainment Business division said they're looking at what CPUs will be on the market in 2011-2012.
IE- that's not even RELEASE date- that's just their planning on what kind of CPUs will be around. We all know Microsoft ALWAYS releases at the later date- so my 2012 stands just fine.


Ryan711 said:
Natal is nothing but a last ditch effort to grab the casual "wii" market, and will most certainly fail.
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:rolleyes:
It's far more than that. Obviously you haven't used one. It's far more than just a novelty- they're actually putting some practical use into this thing.


Ryan711 said:
Are you insane, you think MS is going to have the 360 last until 2015, really?
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Considering there's still a market for original Xboxes out there, yes.
 
TechieSooner said:
Hey, smartass, the head of Microsoft's Interactive Entertainment Business division said they're looking at what CPUs will be on the market in 2011-2012.
IE- that's not even RELEASE date- that's just their planning on what kind of CPUs will be around. We all know Microsoft ALWAYS releases at the later date- so my 2012 stands just fine.
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So they'll be looking at a cpu around to 2011-2012 time frame? So I guess my post is more accurate.


TechieSooner said:
:rolleyes:
It's far more than that. Obviously you haven't used one. It's far more than just a novelty- they're actually putting some practical use into this thing.
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I have infact used one, and it hasn't be used in a year except to play nsmb. 95% of the games are shovelware, it's a novelty and a fad. Newsflash: grandma won't be buying the next wii/natal/sony's crap because she doesn't care and is content with the wii and it's hundreds of shovelware games that will last her until she dies.

TechieSooner said:
Considering there's still a market for original Xboxes out there, yes.
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You mean because it's easily modded and there is tons of homebrew, yes. But you do realize that MS doesn't even make the xbox anymore, nor are any games being made for it, and it isn't even 10 years old.
 
Ryan711 said:
So they'll be looking at a cpu around to 2011-2012 time frame? So I guess my post is more accurate.
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Sheesh- I thought the kids next door were slow.
I already stated this once, I'll do it again: They're just going to be looking at CPUs during that timeframe. That's not release date- that's when they're looking at what's out on the market. So the latter, 2012, will make alot more sense. We also know by Microsoft's track record they never hit the earlier release timeframe, and more often than not end up hitting the latter.

Ryan711 said:
I have infact used one, and it hasn't be used in a year except to play nsmb. 95% of the games are shovelware, it's a novelty and a fad.
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Yea, cuz we'd all expect a fully mature game library on something that hasn't even been released yet :rolleyes:

Ryan711 said:
You mean because it's easily modded and there is tons of homebrew, yes. But you do realize that MS doesn't even make the xbox anymore, nor are any games being made for it, and it isn't even 10 years old.
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Back pedal all you want, you said the 360 won't "last" until 2015.
The original Xbox has been around 9 years. You seriously don't think the 360, with even greater number of them out there, won't be around 10? I don't think that's a stretch at all.
 
eloj said:
Can we at least wait till they've both been out a while before we declare a winner?
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Sony's is a glorified Wiimote with better accuracy, is all it is. Microsoft actually brought some new stuff to the table.
 
CanesVenetici said:
There be a difference though.
Anyone who uses Steam knows beforehand that they're gonna have to wait. We accept this, and are usually rewarded with great deals on the games themselves.
But for someone to buy a brick and mortar store copy of a console title to take said title home and still have to wait hours before they can play is a bit different.

PC gaming FTW
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How is this different from games that are Steam-integrated or otherwise require mandatory update downloads before you can play the game? I have Dawn of War II, TF2 (would like to play this on LAN) and Company of Heroes here all unplayed because I can't download bullshit updates (over 1GB in CoH's case) over dialup.
 
Tylerdurdened said:
The reason every PS3 game comes in a Blu Ray disc is because it's mandated my Sony in hopes developers someday actually use some of that space.

All it does at this point is add to the cost of producing PS3 games.
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It also makes it more expensive to copy it. Blank 50GB BD-R is still $28 (25GB is around $4). For movies, it's usually cheaper to buy another copy then to back-up your movie to another BD disk.
 
God, I can't wait until Kyle bans you and your idiotic posts from the rest of the forums. :rolleyes:
 
tybert7 said:
If blu ray is the only HD disc game in town, the royalties would seem to be immense from a direct competitor in a competitive device, so what is Microsoft going to do?

Even if you think it is not a big issue now, what about the next generation? a dvd is not going to cut it for space on certain types of games, and having to swap discs vs not bothering with the hassle would tilt people toward sony.
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Honestly, I think that companies are going to consider releasing a large part of or all of their new releases via download as an option. It is a very effective means to curb piracy, it will cut down on the used market, and some consumers will embrace it because of the convenience that it brings. Steam for example, I wouldn't dream of buying a retail hard copy of a PC game ever again. The convenience of no CDs (which are a form of DRM in and of themselves), not having to keep track of CD keys, autopatching, etc etc, are huge.

You can already buy full 360 games via DD, and I won't be surprised if GTA5 or whatever comes out on it on the next XBox, PS4, or whatever. They're dipping their toes in the DD water right now with the DSi, the PSP and PSP Go, and all of the back catalog and current gen games on the 360 and PS3. It will be a big deal in the next generation, guaranteed.

Growing space is the obvious issue. MGS4 and Uncharted 2 actually used the extra space that a Blu Ray disc could give. That said, I wonder if more effective use of compression would have resulted in a game that wasn't compromised too much visually. Maybe those games being so big wasn't necessary and it could have worked on a 9GB DVD without compromises, I don't know.

Either way, DD would put a ceiling on game sizes, 16GB tops, absolutely. I dunno, we'll see. I don't think Microsoft would be entirely against Blu Ray adoption if high capacity optical media was mandated by unavoidably larger game sizes due to much larger textures, etc etc. There is already talk that RAGE will require more than one DVD, same with Doom 4. There is a weird misconception that Sony is the only company that benefits from Blu Ray, or that they get the majority of the BR license fees. They were only one company among many that came up with the spec, and they split royalties among many other companies. It isn't their baby alone, and if Microsoft needs a high capacity optical medium than BR is where they'd probably go, either that or develop their own, which would cost more than simply licensing BR and using existing duplication facilities.
 
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dr.stevil said:
of course there are some that do, but it's an exception, certainly not the norm.

hell, most PC games (which can handle much larger textures, higher polygon counts and more complex shader effects than the 360 and ps3) come on a single DVD. If there was a need for anything larger, you'd see it on that platform.
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ummm.... isn't that because the game is installed onto the computer, meaning the files on the disc are compressed? I would think so... how else can a 10gb game fit on a DVD?
 
j-sta said:
ummm.... isn't that because the game is installed onto the computer, meaning the files on the disc are compressed? I would think so... how else can a 10gb game fit on a DVD?

uncompressed on the fly? Holy lag time Batman!
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of course they're compressed... on both a console game and a PC DVD. You have to consider the fact too that the PC version usually has low, medium and high versions of it's elements (textures, shaders, models, sound, etc)

I thought this was pretty interesting

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=13591900#post13591900

it's a list of 360 game sizes installed to the HDD. Most don't even come close to filling a DVD9.... let alone needing a second one (or a bluray). Just to be clear, I'm not bashing Sony or anything, but people who use the disc size of a DVD as some sort of disadvantage are silly

he's a similar list for ps3 games. I know that it doesn't always work the same way as the xbox (some games, for whatever reason, only require a small amount of data to be installed... where some install the entire game). But the results are the same

http://www.overclock.net/playstation/280141-info-ps3-game-installation-sizes.html

It reminds me of when the PS2 first launched. Almost all the games released early on were still being produced on CD... it wasn't until later on in the consoles life that DVD became the standard. It seems like Sony wanted to avoid that this time around by making bluray discs a requirement (probably to force adoption to the format)
 
Spewn said:
Oh did they?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa76O8oojok
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Although that is pretty bad ass (I'd assumed wrongly that the Ubisoft camera was just a cheap webcam, but it seems to offer quite a bit more than that! Impressive!), I still think Natal appears to offer more.

Of course, that's all going to depend on the implementation. I will say, however, that calling Sony's remote a glorified Wiimote with better tracking capability is pretty much spot on. I don't blame them, after all; why take much of a risk when you can just copy what's already been proven to be a hit?
 
TechieSooner said:
Sheesh- I thought the kids next door were slow.
I already stated this once, I'll do it again: They're just going to be looking at CPUs during that timeframe. That's not release date- that's when they're looking at what's out on the market. So the latter, 2012, will make alot more sense. We also know by Microsoft's track record they never hit the earlier release timeframe, and more often than not end up hitting the latter.
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Track record? LOL they've released 2 consoles, and they released the xbox 360 intentionally early to beat sony to market, and because of it got a head start on market share which probably wouldn't have happened if the ps3 had released first.


TechieSooner said:
Yea, cuz we'd all expect a fully mature game library on something that hasn't even been released yet :rolleyes:
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This post makes no sense in relation to the quote it was responding to. Maybe you should holster you rolleyes and read the post thoroughly before you respond.


TechieSooner said:
Back pedal all you want, you said the 360 won't "last" until 2015.
The original Xbox has been around 9 years. You seriously don't think the 360, with even greater number of them out there, won't be around 10? I don't think that's a stretch at all.
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You knew exactly what I meant when I said that, but for clarity's sake: The xbox 360 will not be MS's sole platform until 2015.
 
Ryan711 said:
Track record? LOL they've released 2 consoles, and they released the xbox 360 intentionally early to beat sony to market, and because of it got a head start on market share which probably wouldn't have happened if the ps3 had released first.




This post makes no sense in relation to the quote it was responding to. Maybe you should holster you rolleyes and read the post thoroughly before you respond.




You knew exactly what I meant when I said that, but for clarity's sake: The xbox 360 will not be MS's sole platform until 2015.
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Mmm, I think that given the price differential, 360 still would have sold better initially if they'd launched day and date the same. However, it wouldn't have been as large as it was. Sony's made some good gains ever since they launched the slim, however, and their new price drop. Smartest moves they've made all generation, honestly.

In any case, I agree: 360 will *not* be MS's sole or even primary console through 2015, any more than PS3 will be Sony's. Both will release a new console before then, probably in the 2012 timeframe.

That said, I fully expect Nintendo to launch the Next Generation this time around.
 
Are we going to see a blu ray version of the xbox you think? Or will Sony nix the whole idea.
 
Mif said:
Are we going to see a blu ray version of the xbox you think? Or will Sony nix the whole idea.
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Given their history I'd guess they'll have yet another format. PS1 was CD, PS2 was DVD, PSP is UMD, PS3 is BR. Every console of theirs is a different format. Logically I'd think they will keep BR
 
DragonMasterAlex said:
Although that is pretty bad ass (I'd assumed wrongly that the Ubisoft camera was just a cheap webcam, but it seems to offer quite a bit more than that! Impressive!), I still think Natal appears to offer more.
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I think where you went wrong was in assuming that it would take more than a "cheap webcam" to do the tracking. I'll admit that I don't know exactly how it's done, but it doesn't appear to be anything more than software + a camera. My point was simply that Natal has all this hype around it, and yet it appears to be fairly simple. What's more, so many people seem to think that the failing of motion controls is in the needing of the controller, when in reality it's in the lack of tactile feedback.
 
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