Student’s Refusal to Wear RFID Expulsion Postponed

Monkey God said:
Air Traffic control here, we have another helicopter parent on the scope.
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I had to google it...lol. That said, what he said doesn't really make him one either. What he said is reasonable and it is just his opinion so you exaggerating his opinion on the situation because of your opinion is just poop. :rolleyes:

My view on it:

If the school hands these out at the beginning of school and then collects them at the end of the day, fine! If the kids are responsible for these, no! It's a security threat that can be abused. So... that enacts my families strict "Go fuck yourself" policy!
 
MasonD said:
If the school hands these out at the beginning of school and then collects them at the end of the day, fine! If the kids are responsible for these, no! It's a security threat that can be abused. So... that enacts my families strict "Go fuck yourself" policy!
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This. I'm not sure how much information is on these cards, but all you need is some tech-savvy pedophile being able to tell if your kid is home or not with a Pringles can and a Raspberry Pi.

I know - tin foil hat. But I also never imagined that I would have the Diocese of Pittsburgh assign a pedophile priest to my parish until it happened either.
 
Wow some of you should go join a paramilitary group around the United States. Don't get me wrong, I neither have no undying love for our government, nor do I necessarily trust them as far as I could throw a boulder. That said, these don't have to contain personal data. I do agree it should be something that could be gathered at door fronts somehow entering/leaving, but if all it does is track whereabouts on school campus, then I see nothing wrong with it. There are far more benefits than not.

And for those saying private school/home school, you obviously either 1) have money and have no clue how most of the population lives or 2) have no kids of your own so should almost be preempted from the conversation. It makes me think you have something to hide if you are so vehemently against the idea, because as others have said, if it comes down to it, the technology is easily defeated.
 
zaniix said:
What kind of parent does not want the school to know where their child is at all times.
I can not think of a single bad thing to come of this. Computers are used to improve and streamline simple things like taking attendance and it has the benefit of being more accurate.
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It is 24/7 badge, not "school time" only.
 
Wow, expelling the student? Overkill.

That said, with compulsory education until kids reach a certain age they basically have to be juvenile holding facilities for 5% or more of kids there will only ostensibly be students, they can't read at a 3rd grade level and don't do assignments even with a mentor.
 
http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/8cdd/
Bam, problem solved. There's a woman's version too.


Doesn't change the fact that it's BS for a school to mandate something that would allow minors to be tracked 24/7 by almost anyone.

There's a need for more automated attendance? You know what we used in a giant lecture hall of 100+ students? iClickers (no affiliation to apple). A simple device with 4-5 buttons and a unique identifier, only sent when a button is pushed, used to wirelessly answer multiple choice questions put up on the board or projector. They used these for attendance at the beginning of class, 100+ students and attendance took 30 seconds. Quizzes took 30 seconds a question (or less). This serves multiple purposes, solves the attendance tracking problem (as well as a car could, both can be carried/used by other students, and often were), and doesn't allow the school to track anyone's location, on school grounds or otherwise. It also keeps students more engadged and teachers lives easier.

So what's the point of these RFID Cards other than invading privacy?
 
Tracking people would be very beneficial. Kidnappings, missing children, lost older patients, missing adults, murders (could place the criminal at the scene), sex offenders, etc.. BUT, with all those benefits would come one hell of a price. You would NEVER be alone. Someone would ALWAYS know where you were. Even with those benefits, I couldn't support it. Privacy would not exist ever again. With the Internet, you know you're giving up your privacy (to an extent), but in real life, there is a place where you can go and no one can find you (for whatever reason).
 
Ur_Mom said:
Tracking people would be very beneficial. Kidnappings, missing children, lost older patients, missing adults, murders (could place the criminal at the scene), sex offenders, etc.. BUT, with all those benefits would come one hell of a price. You would NEVER be alone. Someone would ALWAYS know where you were. Even with those benefits, I couldn't support it. Privacy would not exist ever again. With the Internet, you know you're giving up your privacy (to an extent), but in real life, there is a place where you can go and no one can find you (for whatever reason).
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THIS. Nothing is worth giving up our rights (in this case, our right to privacy) under the guise of safety, and especially for the sake of efficiency.

Yes, grade school students are minors with more limited rights, but no, that is not an excuse nor reason to take advantage and do something like this, even in school, but HELL NO outside of school grounds. Just like schools should have no say on a students social networking activity unless an incident rising from that happens on school grounds, and they should have no recourse or say if the student fucks up outside of school. That is the parents, and when it calls for it, the justice system's job.

But alas, parents treat the school system more and more like a tax funded nanny service, and expect THEM to foster their kids, rather than take care of them themselves.
 
What if the trackers abuse that power and know where the kids are?

Why can't kids just pass the attendance sheet and sign it? Nobody could track attendance in 1997?
 
singe_101 said:
What if the trackers abuse that power and know where the kids are?

Why can't kids just pass the attendance sheet and sign it? Nobody could track attendance in 1997?
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While we're at it, let's bring back the rotary phone.
 
To the parents who have said they do want their kid tracked at all times while at school, Fine i say, but why do i have to be FORCED to have my kid tracked at all times? and if you say it accomplishes something, it doesn't, i take my badge off i leave it in school i go do what i want. End of story. Why am i paying for this? i dont want my kid to be tracked because i believe in privacy, period. land of the free my ass
 
Vicinity said:
I'm against taking attendance at school. If someone doesn't want to be there, don't force them. It'll solve the employment problem by shrinking the workforce down to qualified only people.

Needing to know exactly where someone it as all times, especially at school, is completely stupid.
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I do agree with this... Though, I don't think it should be left entirely to the kid. Since kids are too inexperienced/stupid to know what is actually good for them, usually until it's too late.

It's really too bad kids can't choose which teacher they want, it'd definitely help in clearing out the bad teachers.
 
I honestly don't see a problem with the RFID tags. People are treating it like GPS, they are short ranged and there has to be a scanner there to "track" them. They should be more afraid of their smartphone, they are tracked within a few meters at all times by their wireless providers/advertisers. If anything this will just teach kids of the concept of clocking in at work at a early age.
 
STOP.

CONSIDER DEVOTING 2 MINUTES OF YOUR TIME TO WATCH THIS BIT ABOUT RFID CHIPS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guXirzknYYE#t=1h47m41s


The link will set the video to start at the relevant moment (1h 47m 41s) and you should at least watch up to the 1h 49m 48s point.

If you can relate to what you see & hear in the video, I suggest you watch it in its entirety.
 
AlderaaN said:
STOP.

CONSIDER DEVOTING 2 MINUTES OF YOUR TIME TO WATCH THIS BIT ABOUT RFID CHIPS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guXirzknYYE#t=1h47m41s


The link will set the video to start at the relevant moment (1h 47m 41s) and you should at least watch up to the 1h 49m 48s point.

If you can relate to what you see & hear in the video, I suggest you watch it in its entirety.
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The "relevant moment" is hearsay testimony that the Rockefellers knew we were going to go into Afghanistan before September 11th(which in and of itself is not surprising since we had already been looking for Bin Laden in Afghanistan and had CIA agents on the ground years before...which was public knowledge).

What it has to do with RFID tags, I don't know or care, because Zeitgeist is no different than any Alex Jones conspiracy movie.
 
Parmenides said:
What's the big deal about being tracked? I don't care. I go along my good life and have nothing to hide from the authorities. You guys need to chill out with the tin foil hats. Is there something you're hiding?


[/SARCASM]
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That is great if you are a nobody the rest of your life.

However, just consider for a moment that you could become a somebody - and this information is accessable by people that should not have access. What then? Who is looking out for you and your interests? Do you have a say in what security measures are employed in protecting your privacy? Are you happy with this knowing there is no way to 100% prevent misuse of your personal information?

That is fine if you don't have aspirations of becoming significant. However, I can say that a great many of us do and I don't want some 3rd party with special interest relationships holding the keys to my family/future.

It's not being paranoid, it's the current state we live in.
 
Skripka said:
Put it this way. Every MINUTE wasted taking attendance during class by the end of a school semester adds up to 2 or 3 class periods of wasted teaching time.

As for the "childhood rape" comment such a comparison is downright laughable. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the movement tracking...but good grief, spare us the overly dramatic comparisons.
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Taking attendance is more than just a checkbox in a teaching environment. It's an engagement point between the teacher and student. I can take attendance and I know just by a students responce what kind of day they are having.

It is fine to offload responsibilities where it makes sense and doesn't impact the human interaction component. I know taking attendance may seem trivial, but teachers need to maintain a certain level of control in the environment. The problem is, the teachers are the problem (overworked/lazy/underpaid/under-educated/unmotivated).

RFID is just an inadequate bandaid that covers up a completely different agenda. It's not gaining federal support because of the children's welfare.
 
All you people who are against tracking people in general go on to say "well I am not giving that up for my right to privacy".

Maybe I am the only paranoid one but insurance is pretty fucking expensive and dealing with a claim is a nightmare. The chances of a house break in are about 1 in 4 and while you can say that home break ins are confined to poorer areas, wouldn't that be an even stronger case to track criminals? Since it would improve the housing values in those areas?

Sure it might not be feasible to track everyone so the argument is a moot point, but I really have no clue how there is this mentality that is "its my right to privacy"

Unless you are doing something illegal I can not possibly thing of a time in my life recently where anyone tracking me would be interested in my life.

I go to work, come home, fuck my wife from time to time, jerk off, play video games, drink beer, go out, fix my house. Honestly I think if someone was TrumanShowing my life they would be pretty fucking bored after the first 20 minutes.

Now if I was googling how to make bombs, murdering people and breaking into homes left and right, well then you can be sure I would be a little worried.
 
Skripka said:
Put it this way. Every MINUTE wasted taking attendance during class by the end of a school semester adds up to 2 or 3 class periods of wasted teaching time.
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That might be valid if I thought 2 or 3 class periods over the course of a semester was actually in some way going to benefit someone. You could compress most the 12+ years of school learning in to about 3 or 4 years for many students, if not less. School is less about learning and more about giving kids a place to be, a place to interact and a place they can learn (or be "indoctrinated" for the tin foil hat wearers) to being useful members of society.
 
Tudz said:
That might be valid if I thought 2 or 3 class periods over the course of a semester was actually in some way going to benefit someone. You could compress most the 12+ years of school learning in to about 3 or 4 years for many students, if not less. School is less about learning and more about giving kids a place to be, a place to interact and a place they can learn (or be "indoctrinated" for the tin foil hat wearers) to being useful members of society.
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Bullshit. That is completely relative. Obviously you haven't been to an intercity school system where children are so stupid they can't even write their own address by 6th grade let alone read a complete text book.

And I am not talking about specifically just minorities. Parenting plays a big part of it, but it no magic formula that schools in more expensive areas usually are home to smarter students due to the parents success (which encompasses a lot of other factors like at which age the parents had the child etc) and the fact that being around smarter people makes one smarter.
 
Bah, cell phone tracking is more than good enough.

Not like a student will leave it behind for fear of being late on a fb update...

Rotfl...
 
roaf85 said:
Bullshit. That is completely relative. Obviously you haven't been to an intercity school system where children are so stupid they can't even write their own address by 6th grade let alone read a complete text book.

And I am not talking about specifically just minorities. Parenting plays a big part of it, but it no magic formula that schools in more expensive areas usually are home to smarter students due to the parents success (which encompasses a lot of other factors like at which age the parents had the child etc) and the fact that being around smarter people makes one smarter.
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Just because it takes them to 6th grade to write their own address doesn't mean that's how long it has to take, especially if the kid actually WANTS to learn. So I stand by what I said, that schools are about giving kids a place to go more than anything.

I know it's possible because I missed most of years 7 through 12 due to illness (and not wanting to be home schooled) and caught up in 2 years at a technical institute/college and still got scores high enough to place me in the top few percent.

I'm not exceptionally smart, as I'm sure most the basement dwellers here on [H] would be happy to point out :D But I did have a desire to learn and a reason to want to learn (wanted to get in to engineering).

School = institutionalised babysitting far more than school = education. If school did = education, we are failing terribly, because the education part of it is fucking shit and ineffective, lol.
 
Tudz said:
Just because it takes them to 6th grade to write their own address doesn't mean that's how long it has to take, especially if the kid actually WANTS to learn. So I stand by what I said, that schools are about giving kids a place to go more than anything.

I know it's possible because I missed most of years 7 through 12 due to illness (and not wanting to be home schooled) and caught up in 2 years at a technical institute/college and still got scores high enough to place me in the top few percent.

I'm not exceptionally smart, as I'm sure most the basement dwellers here on [H] would be happy to point out :D But I did have a desire to learn and a reason to want to learn (wanted to get in to engineering).

School = institutionalised babysitting far more than school = education. If school did = education, we are failing terribly, because the education part of it is fucking shit and ineffective, lol.
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Dude its easy to say that when you are an adult and looking back you can say "well fuck school was easy", but people don't develop that cognitive ability over night.

So to say that school could be crammed into 7 years is debatable at best. Sure it may seem like the first 7-8 years of a child's educational development are just a waste of time when you look at it from your viewpoint, but you can't expect to teach calculus to a bunch of first graders and because School X (which rates the best in the country) was able to do it then School Y (intercity) should automatically adopt the same program.

A parent really is the best teacher so if you think you can do a better job than most teachers you have the right to homeschool your children, but denying them the social interactions of being around other children their age usually hurts them later in life.

So yea just like how everything in life could be traced down to money you could make an argument that schools are just a place for children to go, which isn't a bad thing since it would have a positive economic impact, but saying that school is a waste for 7 years is like assuming children could sit for the SAT with a 10 year old developed mind. Most teachers would laugh at this.
 
Homeschooling can be a good option, but ffs let your kids socially integrate. That's a HUGE part of learning.
 
Vicinity said:
I'm against taking attendance at school. If someone doesn't want to be there, don't force them. It'll solve the employment problem by shrinking the workforce down to qualified only people.

Needing to know exactly where someone it as all times, especially at school, is completely stupid.
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Not if they threaten to kill or shoot up a bunch of people with the gun they brought to school.
 
roaf85 said:
Dude its easy to say that when you are an adult and looking back you can say "well fuck school was easy", but people don't develop that cognitive ability over night.

So to say that school could be crammed into 7 years is debatable at best. Sure it may seem like the first 7-8 years of a child's educational development are just a waste of time when you look at it from your viewpoint, but you can't expect to teach calculus to a bunch of first graders and because School X (which rates the best in the country) was able to do it then School Y (intercity) should automatically adopt the same program.
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I never said any of those things, you're just pretending I did. I simply said, school is a place for kids to go far more than it is a place to get a formal education where 2 or 3 extra classes in a semester would make any real, tangible, measurable or any other difference.

I also never said kids shouldn't go to school. They most certainly SHOULD go to school IMHO. But sending them there under the guise that it actually benefits them academically is a bit of joke. If the kids don't want to learn (for whatever reason, be it because they are intercity or country hicks or living with retarded or abusive parents), then guess what, you aren't teaching them anything (academically speaking). If it's taking you until 6th grade to teach a kid how to write their own address, don't you think (academically speaking), the education was pretty much a waste? Then on the flip side, if the kids genuinely DO want to learn, you are massively holding them back with the pathetic rate of learning.

The mindset that we are sending kids to school for academic learning, IMO, is misleading at best and harmful at worst. I'm not looking back on school and thinking "that was easy", I wasn't there for years 7 to 12 at all :D I did legitimately do those 6 years of education in 2 years when I was 18/19 years old. I'm not saying that's what I "think" can be done, that's what I ACTUALLY did, and I'm not exceptionally smart and I KNOW a lot of people could do the same.

That doesn't mean kids shouldn't be in school, I never said that. I think my lack of going to school has definitely harmed my development, not my academic development though, because the academic development in school is so abysmal that missing it is no great loss. My original statement was in the context that the few minutes taking attendance would actually somehow impair their education.

In fact, I'll say the exact opposite, if you are actually studying something at a high level which is pushing your understanding, then there's no fucking way you can do it non-stop or even 50% of the time for that matter. The idea that a few minutes a day, or hell, even a couple of hours a day of "wasted" time would actually help or hinder someone's academic ability is incorrect regardless of which angle you look at it from.

A parent really is the best teacher so if you think you can do a better job than most teachers you have the right to homeschool your children, but denying them the social interactions of being around other children their age usually hurts them later in life.

So yea just like how everything in life could be traced down to money you could make an argument that schools are just a place for children to go, which isn't a bad thing since it would have a positive economic impact,
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I don't disagree with most of that, BUT, I never said this...
but saying that school is a waste for 7 years is like assuming children could sit for the SAT with a 10 year old developed mind.
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I never said that. Ever heard of the dangers of extrapolation? :D
 
Tudz said:
I never said any of those things, you're just pretending I did. I simply said, school is a place for kids to go far more than it is a place to get a formal education where 2 or 3 extra classes in a semester would make any real, tangible, measurable or any other difference.

I also never said kids shouldn't go to school. They most certainly SHOULD go to school IMHO. But sending them there under the guise that it actually benefits them academically is a bit of joke. If the kids don't want to learn (for whatever reason, be it because they are intercity or country hicks or living with retarded or abusive parents), then guess what, you aren't teaching them anything (academically speaking). If it's taking you until 6th grade to teach a kid how to write their own address, don't you think (academically speaking), the education was pretty much a waste? Then on the flip side, if the kids genuinely DO want to learn, you are massively holding them back with the pathetic rate of learning.

The mindset that we are sending kids to school for academic learning, IMO, is misleading at best and harmful at worst. I'm not looking back on school and thinking "that was easy", I wasn't there for years 7 to 12 at all :D I did legitimately do those 6 years of education in 2 years when I was 18/19 years old. I'm not saying that's what I "think" can be done, that's what I ACTUALLY did, and I'm not exceptionally smart and I KNOW a lot of people could do the same.

That doesn't mean kids shouldn't be in school, I never said that. I think my lack of going to school has definitely harmed my development, not my academic development though, because the academic development in school is so abysmal that missing it is no great loss. My original statement was in the context that the few minutes taking attendance would actually somehow impair their education.

In fact, I'll say the exact opposite, if you are actually studying something at a high level which is pushing your understanding, then there's no fucking way you can do it non-stop or even 50% of the time for that matter. The idea that a few minutes a day, or hell, even a couple of hours a day of "wasted" time would actually help or hinder someone's academic ability is incorrect regardless of which angle you look at it from.

I don't disagree with most of that, BUT, I never said this...I never said that. Ever heard of the dangers of extrapolation? :D
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So you say you never said that yet you use your example of missing 7 to 12 and catching up as something that should be a standard? Did I miss something?

You are trying to say that because at 18-19 you caught up on 7 to 12 learning that you know it can be done because you wanted to learn? You are taking a 18 year old's mind and trying to compare it a 7th grade education.

I am married to a teacher I don't think you understand what you are saying. You can't successfully teach most children about taxes/interest rates/calculus etc in 2nd grade.

Then you go further to say that "school is just a placeholder" which is partly true, but it has to be otherwise there would be a huge economic impact and if you think the education system is bad now, just wait until there wasn't schools, wasn't a standardized school board.

I am not even for a minute saying that our education system is perfect as I pointed out in my example above, but saying that it is a waste is pretty offending to a 5-8th grade teacher.

And finally I don't get this argument with wanting to learn? I don't know many kids that want to learn in school. I sure as hell never did, but I also knew that if I didn't try I would have been kicked out of school and my parents would have beat my ass.

So its a parents responsibility to make sure their child keeps on track with learning, because I think you will find most kids just want to play all day and not sit in school. Which is ok they are kids.
 
Serpent said:
It's really too bad kids can't choose which teacher they want, it'd definitely help in clearing out the bad teachers.
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How? When so many kids say that they hate so and so because of x reason.
Shit one of the best teachers at my school, teaching/homework/attitude wise was one of the least liked teachers. Although she had a great track of students doing well. They did not like her. Why? Because she made them work.

Also if the RFID tag is 24/7 then, screw off. Also what if some smart ass grabs someones else card and goes into, gee I don't know, a restricted area? Then who gets in trouble? The kid who had the card stolen more than likely.
 
bigdaveberg said:
How? When so many kids say that they hate so and so because of x reason.
Shit one of the best teachers at my school, teaching/homework/attitude wise was one of the least liked teachers. Although she had a great track of students doing well. They did not like her. Why? Because she made them work.

Also if the RFID tag is 24/7 then, screw off. Also what if some smart ass grabs someones else card and goes into, gee I don't know, a restricted area? Then who gets in trouble? The kid who had the card stolen more than likely.
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Yep exactly. The least liked teacher at my wife's school also gives homework every day and she is a math teacher, yet she has one of the highest placement test scores for her grade in the state. Oh and she has been teaching for 40 years, but yet the last 2 years since the parents fill out surveys and they all gave her bad scores because of the amount of homework she gives she lost out on about 15k of merit pay.
 
roaf85 said:
So you say you never said that yet you use your example of missing 7 to 12 and catching up as something that should be a standard? Did I miss something?
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Yes, you missed a lot of things. Let me catch you up.
me said:
You could compress most the 12+ years of school learning in to about 3 or 4 years for many students, if not less.
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I never said anything about it being a standard, I never said it's what I recommend people should do, I never said a 10 year old should be able to do it, these are all things YOU have said, not me.

You are trying to say that because at 18-19 you caught up on 7 to 12 learning that you know it can be done because you wanted to learn? You are taking a 18 year old's mind and trying to compare it a 7th grade education.
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I am doing no such thing. That's what you are extrapolating.

I am married to a teacher I don't think you understand what you are saying.
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And I have several family members who are teachers at various levels. I teach at undergrad levels myself and my students have always had good reports from anonymous feedback.
You can't successfully teach most children about taxes/interest rates/calculus etc in 2nd grade.
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AND I NEVER SAID YOU COULD. Jeeze. For someone married to a teacher you sure lack reading comprehension.
Then you go further to say that "school is just a placeholder" which is partly true, but it has to be otherwise there would be a huge economic impact and if you think the education system is bad now, just wait until there wasn't schools, wasn't a standardized school board.
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I NEVER SAID THERE SHOULD BE NO SCHOOLS.
I am not even for a minute saying that our education system is perfect as I pointed out in my example above, but saying that it is a waste is pretty offending to a 5-8th grade teacher.
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Consider them offended then. I was VERY CAREFUL to place (academically) as a qualifier when I said it was a waste. I never said it was a waste in the child's development, and teachers should be proud of that fact, not the fact they got a kid to figure out how to solve simple simultaneous equations or learn that 5.66 kilojoules is released per mole of octane that is reacted.
So its a parents responsibility to make sure their child keeps on track with learning, because I think you will find most kids just want to play all day and not sit in school. Which is ok they are kids.
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I never said otherwise. You ignore the entire fact I said a statement in a particular context, and then in arguing with me you continue to completely ignore my context, what I have stated as my opinion and the qualifiers I have placed on my statements. I'm honestly not even sure why you're arguing.
 
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the anti-christ or Bibilical prophecies yet. ;)
 
roaf85 said:
Yep exactly. The least liked teacher at my wife's school also gives homework every day and she is a math teacher, yet she has one of the highest placement test scores for her grade in the state. Oh and she has been teaching for 40 years, but yet the last 2 years since the parents fill out surveys and they all gave her bad scores because of the amount of homework she gives she lost out on about 15k of merit pay.
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Homework does help with many students. It's pointless for others.
 
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