The Closing of Tabula Rasa - MMO Industry needs to change

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Cambios

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I recently published two articles on the end of Tabula Rasa, its history, the end game event, etc. You might find them interesting.

History, Timeline and Post Mortem of Tabula Rasa

The End of Tabula Rasa - Server Shutdown Event

I always find it a strange and interesting thing when an MMO closes. Unlike non-MMO games, television shows, or most other forms of entertainment, if the creator stops supporting it you lose total access. That's such a weird and ultimately bad way to go, imho. I think for the long term of the industry, that has to change. Once MMO gamers have had 1 or 2 beloved MMOs shut down on them - and in the fullness of time, that is almost inevitable for most people - they are going to sour on the whole concept.

What's the solution? Well, I think MMO companies are going to have to cut it out with the closings. They are going to have to do one of three things:

1) Open source the server code. Let people run their own private servers. Include as part of the license that a server operator can never charge money for access.

2) Release a version of the server source code that allows single player and LAN. At least then people can play it by themselves or with friends.

3) Sell the game... always. Find a buyer, every single time. No matter how cheap you have to go, FIND A BUYER.

Players are going to get fed up eventually and figure it just isn’t worth their time or emotional investment to play a game that can be ripped away at the whims of some corporate bean counters.

What do you think?
 
I've never played it, but people I have talked to who have said they're not surprised it's shutting down.
 
I think posting this verbatim on every god damn tech/gaming forum is annoying as shit and that no one gives a fuck.
 
Never heard of it. It would seem not many did, that's why it's shutting down.
 
Gott said:
I think posting this verbatim on every god damn tech/gaming forum is annoying as shit and that no one gives a fuck.
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Then don't read it? Problem solved and you might not be as pissed as you sound. :p
 
Cambios said:
1) Open source the server code. Let people run their own private servers. Include as part of the license that a server operator can never charge money for access.
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This is entirely unrealistic.
A service uses resources, both human resources and other resources.
Time, bandwidth, electricity, hardware, all need to be paid for, and the inability to recoup those costs will prevent any serious 3rd party project from succeeding.
 
Reverse engineering is what it will take because few companies will release the source code. I know there are several coders working to reverse engineer the source for Asheron's Call 2 (which to date is still my favorite MMO; I wish them luck). They've progressed quite a bit. I think even a former game dev for AC2 is working with the coders.
 
I played TR a bit and it had promise that it never lived up to. With a lot more development love it could have become the best SciFi MMO out there, but there was too much infighting and not enough dev time.

I think if they opened the source it could become a thriving community, allowing the brunt of server costs to be handled by those willing to run them. I have to say that you can't keep people from charging for access, though - the costs of running a full MMO server are too great. I'm sorry to see it die.
 
Cambios said:
1) Open source the server code. Let people run their own private servers. Include as part of the license that a server operator can never charge money for access.

2) Release a version of the server source code that allows single player and LAN. At least then people can play it by themselves or with friends.

3) Sell the game... always. Find a buyer, every single time. No matter how cheap you have to go, FIND A BUYER.

Players are going to get fed up eventually and figure it just isn’t worth their time or emotional investment to play a game that can be ripped away at the whims of some corporate bean counters.

What do you think?
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1. Why always force a company to open source their code? If they don't want others to see how they made it so be it.

2. This is more realistic, but the whole point of the MMO, as with all subscription services, is that there is new content that will be available.

3. If it wasn't profitable for Company A, why would Company X have an interest?
 
What needs to change? They need to stop making MMOs. They won't unseat WoW, unless they actually care, and frankly I doubt they do. Bet all they were thinking about was subscription money from their supposed buyers, therefore making millions.
 
Played the beta.

It had potential. All of the components were there - but none seemed to be utilitized.

Yes, the interface was clunky - but not that bad. It was really unclear on what it wanted to be - A FPS or a RPG. It never really felt "epic" at any time. When I played it was more of "what can I get away with" then "what goal monster am I going to take down today."
 
Cambios said:
I recently published two articles on the end of Tabula Rasa, its history, the end game event, etc. You might find them interesting.

History, Timeline and Post Mortem of Tabula Rasa

The End of Tabula Rasa - Server Shutdown Event

I always find it a strange and interesting thing when an MMO closes. Unlike non-MMO games, television shows, or most other forms of entertainment, if the creator stops supporting it you lose total access. That's such a weird and ultimately bad way to go, imho. I think for the long term of the industry, that has to change. Once MMO gamers have had 1 or 2 beloved MMOs shut down on them - and in the fullness of time, that is almost inevitable for most people - they are going to sour on the whole concept.

What's the solution? Well, I think MMO companies are going to have to cut it out with the closings. They are going to have to do one of three things:

1) Open source the server code. Let people run their own private servers. Include as part of the license that a server operator can never charge money for access.

2) Release a version of the server source code that allows single player and LAN. At least then people can play it by themselves or with friends.

3) Sell the game... always. Find a buyer, every single time. No matter how cheap you have to go, FIND A BUYER.

Players are going to get fed up eventually and figure it just isn’t worth their time or emotional investment to play a game that can be ripped away at the whims of some corporate bean counters.

What do you think?
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Your solutions are asinine, dying games that only a few hardcore people want to play should not be kept alive indefinitely for those people, companies shouldn't give up their IP's just to satisfy the aforementioned people, and as an MMO fan, the fact that a bad mmo failed and someone is mad about it doesn't say anything about the industry as a whole.
 
Cambios said:
What's the solution? Well, I think MMO companies are going to have to cut it out with the closings. They are going to have to do one of three things:

1) Open source the server code. Let people run their own private servers. Include as part of the license that a server operator can never charge money for access.

2) Release a version of the server source code that allows single player and LAN. At least then people can play it by themselves or with friends.

3) Sell the game... always. Find a buyer, every single time. No matter how cheap you have to go, FIND A BUYER.
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I don't really see any of those being plausible. Opening the source up has major legal issues if you've licensed any third part components for the game. (id has issues opening up the Doom source because of some of sound code was licensed).
Server code for an MMO is designed to be hugely scalable and not meant to be administered by users. I don't see the time and effort being put in to make that something the average gamer can setup and run on their home network by a failing company. To say nothing of the fact that you're totally defeating the purpose of an MMO
Server costs and administration / moderation of the game is a sizable investment, why would another company jump on a sinking ship? They are not going to be a position to quickly release new content or game updates to draw in players since they're likely unfamiliar with the inner workings of the game.

If the month to month operation of the game is losing money, the publisher is either going to sink money into improving the game if they believe it can salvaged, or they'll shut it down.

MMOs are a service more than a product. They exist at the pleasure (and profit) of the developer / publisher. If don't accept that, don't jump on every over-hyped WOW clone that promises 300,000 mustache variations for your character but does nothing to encourage players to leave their hard build characters elsewhere. (Never played Tabula Rasa so I can't say if that's an apt analogy).
 
WaterIsTasty said:
Do you realize how much money it takes to run a decent MMO?
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not really a lot, I been working for Lineage 2 official server setup in Taiwan before..

the server itself is shitty, but enough to handle up to 2k-5k player concurrent..

Bandwidth just need 50/50 to 100/100 will be more than enough...

overall together, it is actually pretty darn cheap, and to develop a online game usually take about a year to 2 years. but the developer does not operate the server, the other company who buy their license is the one who is doing so, and it doesn't really cost much for a operating license.

there are few reason why MMO is failing

1. Too many MMO out there, the market is way too competitive, in order to survive in the competition, the game itself have to be outstanding, and very re-playable, none of the brainless monster kill leveling style, which most MMO are like that...

2. most MMO out there doesn't give a shit about new starter, the game simply turn into a single player game

3. chinese farmer, I am not racist or anything, but there are a huge amount of studios in china try to bot/cheat through the game, start making some online shop and selling digital item for real cash, it does ruin the game a lot, and company beside blizzard seem doesn't really give a shit about it..

4. Hard Core leveling, I been seeing a lot of MMO takes like half of year or maybe a year just to get to top level, and to get the stuffs you want in game will take even longer, which most korean MMO are like that, and they make the most MMO.

5. At last, the monthly fee does destroy the game a lot, I seriously hate paying 15 dollar per month to just play a game, not like its expensive, it just in term of logic, doesn't quite make sense to me.

Overall, Most MMO industry been rushing through too much lately, trying to make a game in a short period then trying to expect the game would be fantastic, Hellgate London is one of it. And some Korean MMORPG.

Brainless gameplay == Epic pHail == Closure
 
You realize open sourcing the code would simply make it easier for people to exploit bugs and make cheating programs/bots right? This is a terrible idea.
 
Jared701 said:
You realize open sourcing the code would simply make it easier for people to exploit bugs and make cheating programs/bots right? This is a terrible idea.
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If the company abandoned it, so what?

I don't deny that Tabula Rasa deserved its financial fate. It was a very flawed game with a broken development cycle. Read the articles - I freely admit that.

The larger point is this: the MMO industry will not sustain itself if it closes games down on people and leaves them feeling like they had the rug ripped out from under them. MMOs are about more than just the game. They are about the community around the game. When you shut the game down, you destroy that community.

Whether the answer is open sourcing code, releasing binaries, releasing a limited LAN server option, selling the game, or something else, there needs to be a solution other than just shutting thigns down.

Other types of PC games live on as abadonware, ebay, bargain bins, etc. When MMOs die, that's it. They are gone forever. That's not a good thing.
 
Cambios said:
The larger point is this: the MMO industry will not sustain itself if it closes games down on people and leaves them feeling like they had the rug ripped out from under them.
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It's an appeal to emotion, which is a logical fallacy.
The MMO industry will sustain itself just fine if it manages to recoup development and operating costs. Some MMOs are not shut down because they weren't profitable per se, but they were shut down because they weren't profitable enough. It made more sense to free up the man power to earn X+Y% profit rather than keep the game going and only make X% profit.

Cambios said:
When MMOs die, that's it. They are gone forever. That's not a good thing.
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I think the main flaw of your argument is that you don't show why it's not a good thing. You state that it's not a good thing, but that's merely opinion. There's no logical reason why nonviable games should live on. They had their chance, the market rejected them, you can read their Wikipedia entry for nostalgia reasons, but that's it.
 
One or two MMOS is all we need. The current market is over saturated. While I've enjoyed WoW over the past few years I get a sour taste in my mouth every time I see previews for yet another MMORPG. Just another company hoping to milk us monthly for a subscription fee instead of creating a fun unique single/multiplayer game.
 
open source the server not the game. Voula problem solved. People will pay to host the servers. They get a god trip from it. Tons did and still do host UO servers. Tons would host WOW servers if bliz didnt sue their pants off every time.
 
1. You can't force a company to freely give away their product, nor should you want to. If you open source important code, other companies will most definitely look at it to see how the code was written and one way or another use this knowledge for their own benefit. Open sourcing a game a decade later is much different than open sourcing it 2-3 years after release, when its principles and design could still be relevant.

2. Making drastic programming changes to a dying product makes no sense. MMOs can do all sorts of work server side, the server does a lot more than just direct network traffic. You would be changing the fundamental design of the game in this case.

3. Even if you gave it away for free its debatable whether or not people would pay the money to maintain their own personal servers. The game failed, remember?
 
Cambios said:
Players are going to get fed up eventually and figure it just isn’t worth their time or emotional investment to play a game that can be ripped away at the whims of some corporate bean counters.
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You clearly lack understanding of the immense costs involved with hosting an MMO, there is a good reason that most MMOs are subscription based, because the hosting involved in keeping a persistant world online that can handle many thousands of connections is very costly.

Nothing is done on a "whim", the bottom line is the people who make these MMOs are businesses with investors and stakeholders who want to see a return on their investment, this means the business model needs to be profitable, if the game cannot turn a profit mostly because the playerbase is too small, then the model needs to be scrapped. Many years of investment and hard work go into making an MMO, the idea that one might be shut down on a "whim" is outrageous.

Don't expect a modern MMO which dies to get any real significant support from people willing to host a server for free, and if anything allowing this to happen makes the server far less reliable than one which is paid for, it's more likely that a server which is hosted for free is going to run into issues both support/stability wise, and also funding wise, that's the kind of server that really could be taken down on a whim.
 
I am a huge open source software fan, but you need to realize that open sourcing software is not as easy as it sounds. That generally has to be something that you designed the code around to begin with.

As others in this thread have stated, a company cannot just throw all their program's code up onto a server and say "there, it's open sourced." Very few companies write all their own code from scratch--there's really no point in spending all that time and money. If you're writing something complex like a game, you can be sure that you'll license technologies from many other companies to make your program. You can't just open source another company's code like that. You have to resolve every single license issue in your code, which likely means that you'd have to rewrite all of those pieces from scratch, because very few companies are going to allow their valuable intellectual property to be open sourced for the sake of some dying MMO.

People in the linux community have been complaining for nvidia and ati to open source their video drivers for a long time. The idea is similar to what you cite--we claim that the drivers (especially ATI's) would become much better if the entire linux community could work on them. And you know what? It's probably true, the drivers would probably benefit greatly from this. But it's not just nvidia and ati's decision. It's also the decision of the dozens of companies that they licensed code from. The same thing applies here.
 
There were lots of free UO servers with T3 or better. Some even had OC12 and other high end connections connected to powerful servers (overkill and probably better than Origin used, I could host 150 or so people with my celeron and DSL). They had these servers open to play on for free! they also had dev teams churning out new content, admins for their forums, GMs running around in game. All of this for free. Why? because people WILL do this sort of stuff for free just for the recongition, power, god trip, and pure fun of it. Similar to what some [H] forum members do for folding. A lot of shards did have donations open to help with bandwidth costs but none charged.

Was the game open source? NO!. It just had an easy to understand and easily moddable file structure. You couldn't play on offical servers with modded files but you could easily change what a private server asked for. Heck, the server wasn't even open source. People just figured it out. It did take a long long time to get everything perfect and 100% functional though. If the server code were made open source it could have been done a lot faster. Heck if they just released the last server software for free without opening the source it would be greatly helpful.
 
We see the same uproar from loyal MMO players every time a game shuts down and nothing ever changes. The game companies are never going to do this unless they think they can make a buck off it. It's not enough to just cover their running expenses or do it for the the sake of goodwill with the player community. Fact is, most players get over it and move on to another game or are replaced with a new generation of MMO players.
 
even though its been said, i'll say it again:
1)MMO market is flooded. Devs have seen how MMOs have taken off recently and want a piece of the pie. what they don't understand is that if they are making a mediocre MMO no one is going to waste monthly money on it. Just with any market when there are too many companies, only the best survive.

2) THis game got a lot of hype and then failed to deliver. (See Conan)

3) They had the classic problem of trying to do everything at once (FPS vs RPG issue) and didn't do a good job with it. If you're going to have multiple elements to a game make sure they are correctly implemented.

I had a bunch of friends leave EVE and WoW for this game when it came out, 3 months later, they are back to EVE and WoW.

For now, WoW is going to be the dominant species in the MMO world. EVE survives because it is extremely unique and awesome.

All the other MMOs that exist are not making 1/10 the money WoW does. they may survive but they aren't really going up (EQ people feel free to correct me, but tis my understanding that most MMOs are losing subscribers)
 
Ultimately, what's in it for the developers? If it was in their interests to keep it going, it wouldn't have shut down. And before you suggest "good will", they would also be setting themselves up with free-to-play competition in the event that they developed another MMO in the future.
 
MMOs won't die. But developers trying to make MMOs that are out of their league will. They see dollar signs all over the genre, then their product crash and burns. And the way the genre is designed around "time=reward" means people will remain loyal to the one or two MMOs they're already playing that don't suck.
 
PornoSatan said:
MMOs won't die. But developers trying to make MMOs that are out of their league will. They see dollar signs all over the genre, then their product crash and burns. And the way the genre is designed around "time=reward" means people will remain loyal to the one or two MMOs they're already playing that don't suck.
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I think this is a good point. The stakes are higher for MMO's than they are for other video games. People buy "other" games on a fairly regular basis, and even mediocre games can sell well and get decent play time. A gamer may buy a game, play it for a few weeks or months, and then move on to a new one. the "turnover" rate is probably quite high for non-MMO games.

But MMO's are different. People don't just play an MMO for a few weeks and then move on to a new one. MMO's require much more time and money commitment, and people will not do that haphazardly. Furthermore, MMO's reward dedication. They revolve around character development over a long period of time. If a new MMO launches, even if it looks really awesome, you'll find its very difficult to get people to leave their old characters and friends.

EDIT: Jakalwarrior: I see what you're saying, but it doesn't address the issue that the OP brought up. As I understand it, the OP's problem with MMO's is their ethereality. He is saying that the "this mmo's world exists today but it might not exist tomorrow or next week" issue is something that limits the depth to which players can immerse themselves in a virtual world. Now, I'm sure we can all agree that a completely community-run server would be even less reliable and consistent than the original official ones. Sure, you may save the game from its imminent demise, but you still haven't escaped the volatility that the players may fear.
 
Wouldn't a failed MMO just be an MO?

Or an MITOMMO (Massive In Their Own Mind MO...)

NWNWBAMMO... (Never Was, Never Will Be An MMO...)

Or a SLAMMO? (Sucky, laggy-@ssed MMO...)

Dunno, don't care...

But judging by his third solution, the guy who posted this must be a former (failed) bank CEO or something... WHy not just suggest #4 an Obama bailout?
 
It's a shame to see another MMO that actually brought something new to the genre shut down. The only games that seem to do even marginally well are all fantasy clones (usually WoW clones now). Age of Conan, LotR Online, Warhammer, Vanguard,etc while not bad all games in themselves (well, Conan and Vanguard were terrible) all are derivative and too similar. Games like Tabula Rasa and whatever that car battle MMO was tend to be undermarketed, fall into too much of a niche market, and never develop much of a following due to those facts, no matter how good they may be. Thankfully, EVE Online does not fall victim to this trend, as though I only have experience with the 14 day trial (too poor to pay for more than 1 MMO as a college student, and WoW is my guilty pleasure), my opinion agrees with that of many longtime players and reviewers. The game was given a chance, well supported and marketed, and it tried doing something new and did it very, very well. It manages to be both fun for newcomers, while being astoundingly deep and plenty of playstyles are accommodated for.

While I agree it is a shame to see new games get shut down (I myself played Tabula Rasa for a brief period and thought it to show great potential, but quit due to lack of a playerbase), I think the entire genre needs to be gutted. The countless low/mid budget games just clog the system and any new ideas in games get lost in the crowd. In a less crowded market, with a larger playerbase, more promotion, and the budget to give it the attention it deserved, Tabula Rasa would have done well. As it was however, it died as a victim to the market, and only served to contribute to the very problem that caused its demise.
 
I think the real problems with MMO's lately, is that they all (yes even WoW) fail to deliver consistent rewards for your time.

I have played several (not all) MMO's over the years, and they all failed at something. I am currently playing WoW, but more so to keep in touch with friends than to actually play the game. I am stuck at endgame, and there isn't really anything to do except to raid, and i cannot devote the time that requires.

What we really need is an innovative MMO that doesn't stop challenging you. Really, the whole "level" concept needs to die. Here is a list of things that i think an honest to god WoW killer NEEDS to have:

1. No "levels", make every thing skill based.
2. Bell curve skills (see below for an explanation)
3. Things to do other than "kill stuff"
4. A real economy (see below for explanation)
5. A real "crafting" system to support #4
6. Challenging encounters (and not all just killing stuff either)
7. "Real" achievements in game (see below for explanation)

Eplanation for 2: In real life, skills are shaped like a bell curve. Very rapid early developement, followed by a much slower "middle" period, and then a very steep grade to get to the really good level. For example, say you don't know how to swim. It's pretty easy to learn how to do with little in the way of training experience. If you do it regularly, you become a strong swimmer. But it takes a lifetime to reach competitive levels. Same should apply to a game world. Takes a few hours to gain some semblance of ability, but months/years to get decent. It should take exceptional effort to make exeptional levels of ability.

Explanation for 4: There needs to be stuff for players to do other than "gee, i need gold, let me go kill goblins/space elves/whatever". Money should be fairly easily obtainable by crafting things. And the price should vary depending on how many people are making any given thing. Sure, you'd need NPC vendors, but they should selll what the players make, not just have "stuff to buy that never runs out". This would give players an incentive to craft things, either for themselves, friends, guild members, or simply to sell to vendors so that the vendors can sell to other players. Also, like in Eve, players should be able to buy and sell goods with real money, up to and including game time.

Explanation for 7: People do things for a reward. Current MMO's really do not do a good job reward players for their time spent playing the game. But putting achievements in the game that really mean something (I.E. are hard to get) can make all the difference. For example if it takes 18 months of serious effort to finally make a grand master crafting skill, or advance in military/reputation rank, or anything else that takes work; that actually means something if you can pull it off.

Basically, there always needs to be something for the player to be working towards, and a real no bullshit reward for them when they do finally get what they have been working towards. WoW at it's beginning wasn't too bad at delivering SOME of the above, but no MMO has really addressed all of my list so far. Eve seems to have done some good things with economies, and having skill based gameplay.

So when somebody gets enough money and all the right ideas together and presents it in such a way that people want to play it, they will succeed.
 
spugnor said:
What we really need is an innovative MMO that doesn't stop challenging you. Really, the whole "level" concept needs to die. Here is a list of things that i think an honest to god WoW killer NEEDS to have:
-- Words --
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Do you realize that you just gave a near rundown of UO pre-stupification? They "fixed" a lot of those features out of the game. I loved it back when there was ecology, your botswain would tell you stories, and NPC's weren't just pitstops to reload.

Actually, you have also described EVE for the most part.

The world needs a true fantasy setting successor to UO, not just the same shovelware MMO's being released recently.
 
jgoewert said:
Do you realize that you just gave a near rundown of UO pre-stupification? They "fixed" a lot of those features out of the game. I loved it back when there was ecology, your botswain would tell you stories, and NPC's weren't just pitstops to reload.

Actually, you have also described EVE for the most part.

The world needs a true fantasy setting successor to UO, not just the same shovelware MMO's being released recently.
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The problem is this, imho, for the fantasy genre.

You had UO and EQ. EQ was the DIKU-MUD loot grind style MMO. UO was the virtual world style MMO. Both types of games can be fun, and both have huge potential.

The EQ style is a little more successful, but not enormously so (they had 2-3 times the usage of UO). The EQ branch was helped by the release of DAoC which was more like EQ and also added excellent PvP (stealing some of UO's thunder).

But the next true generation is what would really change the face of MMOs.

Star Wars Galaxies was a UO, virtual world style MMO. It was also supposed to be humongous and almost unbeatable.

On the EQ side of the equation, you had WoW. It is hard to believe now, but most people thought SWG was going to eat WoW's lunch.

SWG was an epic failure. WoW was a titanic success.

As a result, you see tons of games copying the WoW/EQ/DIKU mud style of game, and the virtual world style of game has been shunned.

All we need is somoene to make some really high quality virtual world style MMOs, and then you will get more people interested in that space.
 
spugnor said:
For example if it takes 18 months of serious effort to finally make a grand master crafting skill, or advance in military/reputation rank, or anything else that takes work; that actually means something if you can pull it off..
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Poor example. If it takes 18 months of grind to reach something... majority of casual players will never play the game.


There is always a combat of interest, casuals vs. hardcore. To which to cater? Can't cater to both... hardcore school/university kids will always have more time then a full time working adult raising kids.

The main reason I leave MMO's is that at a certain point (usually 80-90% of leveling curve) it becomes pointless. If it takes 3-4 hours of pure mindless grind to see minute reward.. at that point the fun vs. time spent ratio goes south. I suppose it doesn't matter if the game is used as a social channel, but why pay 15$ per month when there are better free alternatives?

I like the skill system, but it all boils down to simple grind (or macros ala UO).
 
BDV said:
Poor example. If it takes 18 months of grind to reach something... majority of casual players will never play the game.


There is always a combat of interest, casuals vs. hardcore. To which to cater? Can't cater to both... hardcore school/university kids will always have more time then a full time working adult raising kids.
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I disagree. People do months at a time NOW in MMO's for less tangible rewards. My example was meant to imply the BEST a skill could possibly get. Not everyone would want to work for that, but for those who did, it would be a sign that they DID the work to get it.

How many people would like to be "the best swordsman on the server", or the "best starship pilot ever". Lot's of people.

And it needn't be all (nor should it be) about combat skills. Using the 18 months example, suppose i spent a fair amount of time working up blasksmithing skill to a really high level, then specialized in sword making and worked it all the way up to ZOMG skill level. At that point i SHOULD be able to craft items as good as the best in the game.

In other words, i'd become an epic sword smith, and people who could afford my prices would pay top dollar (or gold coins, whatever) for my services. At this point a whole nother level comes into play. How do i decide who gets my blades? At that point i can assign quests to prospective buyers (if i wanted to) and make THEM grind for crafting materials or other things i may want.

So instead of ME grinding instances or whatever, i can reap the rewards for being the best at a skill. Even using my example, lets say a 6 month investment in time (and of course some skill maintenance time) gets me to a very good level (able to craft basic magical/tech items). I could craft items and sell them or trade them to others for the things that they either find or make to get equipment, instead of grinding areas to get the same.

Or let's say i am that same "best swordsman on the server" from the second paragraph. Someone may want to hire me to duel another character (or assassinate it). The point is, it would be different and engaging in a whole different way than the genre is now.

And the time frames are not that far off. People in WoW now spend months grinding for faction reputation by doing daily quests over and over and over and over. So the simple fact is, people WILL do it. If you throw a whole bunch of other stuff in there, and make it worth the players while to TRY to get there, people who WANT that will work towards it. Pretty much like real life. Casual players don't succeed, people who are willing to wok succeed.

I was actually basing that 18 months on a casual 2-3 hours a day, 2-3 times a week player. Someone who's on 4-5 hours every day would be able to go faster of course, but still not THAT much faster (diminishing returns, of course).

Any Eve players want to let us know how much time is required to get really high skill levels (able to fly and fight the best ships)? I do understand that Eve lets you skill out outside of actual on the computer play time. But even still, it's not overnight is it? And on top of that you have to finance that ship somehow (and that takes game time to set up either an automatic resource stream or time spent actually acquiring wealth).
 
Maybe there could be a group of network experts who can get together to keep some games alive. If an online MMORPG fails at the retail level - then they could scoop up whats left of it an run it at a basic level.

Like maybe a micropayment or say a 99 cent fee to keep a 10,000 person server running.

Or maybe someone could figure out distributed code so that server side bandwidth and calculations could be shared by the players computers and bandwidth.

Its a shame to see so much development time and effort go into a game that lasts only one year. It was the same with Earth and Beyond and any of the multitude of others (Hellgate). I sympathize with anyone who has paid full price for the game and then had the rug pulled out from under them.
 
spugnor said:
I think the real problems with MMO's lately, is that they all (yes even WoW) fail to deliver consistent rewards for your time.

I have played several (not all) MMO's over the years, and they all failed at something. I am currently playing WoW, but more so to keep in touch with friends than to actually play the game. I am stuck at endgame, and there isn't really anything to do except to raid, and i cannot devote the time that requires.

What we really need is an innovative MMO that doesn't stop challenging you. Really, the whole "level" concept needs to die. Here is a list of things that i think an honest to god WoW killer NEEDS to have:

1. No "levels", make every thing skill based.
2. Bell curve skills (see below for an explanation)
3. Things to do other than "kill stuff"
4. A real economy (see below for explanation)
5. A real "crafting" system to support #4
6. Challenging encounters (and not all just killing stuff either)
7. "Real" achievements in game (see below for explanation)

Eplanation for 2: In real life, skills are shaped like a bell curve. Very rapid early developement, followed by a much slower "middle" period, and then a very steep grade to get to the really good level. For example, say you don't know how to swim. It's pretty easy to learn how to do with little in the way of training experience. If you do it regularly, you become a strong swimmer. But it takes a lifetime to reach competitive levels. Same should apply to a game world. Takes a few hours to gain some semblance of ability, but months/years to get decent. It should take exceptional effort to make exeptional levels of ability.

Explanation for 4: There needs to be stuff for players to do other than "gee, i need gold, let me go kill goblins/space elves/whatever". Money should be fairly easily obtainable by crafting things. And the price should vary depending on how many people are making any given thing. Sure, you'd need NPC vendors, but they should selll what the players make, not just have "stuff to buy that never runs out". This would give players an incentive to craft things, either for themselves, friends, guild members, or simply to sell to vendors so that the vendors can sell to other players. Also, like in Eve, players should be able to buy and sell goods with real money, up to and including game time.

Explanation for 7: People do things for a reward. Current MMO's really do not do a good job reward players for their time spent playing the game. But putting achievements in the game that really mean something (I.E. are hard to get) can make all the difference. For example if it takes 18 months of serious effort to finally make a grand master crafting skill, or advance in military/reputation rank, or anything else that takes work; that actually means something if you can pull it off.

Basically, there always needs to be something for the player to be working towards, and a real no bullshit reward for them when they do finally get what they have been working towards. WoW at it's beginning wasn't too bad at delivering SOME of the above, but no MMO has really addressed all of my list so far. Eve seems to have done some good things with economies, and having skill based gameplay.

So when somebody gets enough money and all the right ideas together and presents it in such a way that people want to play it, they will succeed.
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Problem with this is I HATE crafting. I HATE working skills. Using your swimming example all the power gamers would be in the water for a month 'til they "cheated" the system and reached that competition level you speak of. Casual gamers like myself would hate your idea of an MMO. Which is why WoW is so successful... casual gamers can jump in and have fun and not have to power game.

I played EQ for years, and when WoW was about to come out I predicted it would be the best/most successful MMORPG for one reason: The majority of the game catered to casual gamers. All of the power gamers in EQ predicted it would fail. How many years later and you can see what's happened.

p.s. I loved WoW, but gave up my addiction a year or so after release, haven't touched an MMO since. Such an addictive game, quitting smoking is about the only thing more difficult to quit I think lol.
 
BDV said:
Poor example. If it takes 18 months of grind to reach something... majority of casual players will never play the game.
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Furthermore, I don't play games to emulate the same grinds I have to deal with in real life.
 
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