The death of the Arena Shooter.

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Shlomo

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With it being about 6 years now since the demo of the last good arena shooter was released (UT2004), I was watching some old frag videos made for 2k4 and I got to wondering as to why such a genre, which was KING in the early decade, completely die out. With straight turds being released like Q4 and UT3, have companies (id/Epic) completely given up on this genre? Personally, it's my favorite, and the one genre which purely takes the most practice and skill to compete at. I spent over 900 hours in UT2004, playing in TWL ladders, CAL seasons, couple of tournaments, and various PUG channels on IRC, I severely miss the pureness of the arena shooter.

Who else really wants to see a blockbuster title revive this genre? I'm completely tired of modern shooters, and WWII shooters, and every other damn semi-realistic crap shooter out there which makes people think they're some GI-Joe. Why can't I be the steroid'ed up guy with super futuristic (NON MILITARY) weapons solely created for the goal of killing other people in the arena, with a huge arsenal, no reloading, amazing movement options available to me?

Cliffs:
Genre is dead
That really fucking sucks
 
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I never had an issue with UT3 myself. Any complaints I might have with the original release were remedied with the Titan Pack/Black Edition.

What do you feel is wrong with UT3?
 
Personally, it's my favorite, and the one genre which purely takes the most practice and skill to compete at.
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Because you spent 900 hours on it?

I don't know how anyone can affirm a statement like that. I think the genre that takes most practice and skill is rythmic games (guitar hero / ddr). Prove me wrong.
 
Intel_Hydralisk said:
Because you spent 900 hours on it?

I don't know how anyone can affirm a statement like that. I think the genre that takes most practice and skill is rythmic games (guitar hero / ddr). Prove me wrong.
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I have 30 FC's in GH3, and 5 star'd every song. There is no competition high level GH because quite simply, everyone can FC every song now, period. There, you've been proven wrong (for that one game at least).

Keep in mind i've logged serious hours into Warcraft 3 (800) HoN (200) BF2 (300-400) COD4 (200) TF2 (200) CSS (200), I mean it isn't like i've only played arena shooters.

As for my disappointments with UT3, it goes beyond just the menu system fuck ups and whatnot. It lies mostly with the game play. See theres UT style, and theres Quake style. I like Quake style with floaty high movement options, ability to cover huge distances and play fast, air rox, air bio, air flak, hitscan battles, walldodge jumps/dodge jumps, the best. UT3 quite simply nerfed my movement options, super heavy'd the gravity, made walldodge just retardedly useless as a map movement option, and overall just mostly removed the Z-axis play from the game, and made all the maps linear with limited options on how to get from point A to point B (mostly funneling you through choke points and hallways where 100 damage rockets instagib you)
 
Shlomo said:
I have 30 FC's in GH3, and 5 star'd every song. There is no competition high level GH because quite simply, everyone can FC every song now, period. There, you've been proven wrong (for that one game at least).
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There's still only one person that's FC'd Devil Went Down to Georgia.

The only hard part about GH /Rock Band is squeezing if you can FC consistently. DDR / ITG is pretty much limitless in how good you can get.

With everything you've said about UT3 I find it hard for someone to please your 900 hours of UT2k4 unless it was a literal copy of UT2k4. Maybe you should just move on.
 
phide said:
What do you feel is wrong with UT3?
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Everything, Instead of sticking with the "If it isn't broken, don't fix it" Epic, tried to implement a half ass'd story line with lifeless characters and even worse objectives.

Nobody wants RPG elements in a Unreal Tournament game, they wan't to start the game up grab a buddy or connect to an online server and kill, kill, kill. Thats what makes UT , UT. What they did with 2004 like implementing the ladder system was fine and dandy. I don't see any reason why they should have tried something "new".

Just goes to show you , you can shine up a turd to a brilliant luster, but at the end of the day its still a turd.




I agree with you though OP , UT 99 ,UT2K4 and Quake 3 were some of the best games to ever hit the PC. I have no idea why the genre is a dying breed. You would think living in the Now generation these games would be a dime a dozen but that sadly is not the case.

At least we have the memories though.

Don't cry because its over. Smile because it happened.
 
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phide said:
I never had an issue with UT3 myself. Any complaints I might have with the original release were remedied with the Titan Pack/Black Edition.

What do you feel is wrong with UT3?
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In theory, nothing.

I love UT3. My only issue with it is that no one else does and the servers are empty.
 
UT3 is actually extremely fun but all of the major issues, especially server side, weren't fixed before titan. The community had all already jumped ship. I used to be able to find a couple of duel's every night and there was tournaments going on the weekends and what not but it's an absolute ghost town now.

Which is a huge shame.
 
Intel_Hydralisk said:
With everything you've said about UT3 I find it hard for someone to please your 900 hours of UT2k4 unless it was a literal copy of UT2k4. Maybe you should just move on.
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And I haven't? Since I stopped playing UT2004 competitively, i've played 6 other FPS games, and DotA/HoN and put more than 5 days played in every one of them (like, seriously 20+ days played in DotA/HoN). However, none of them can capture my attention like Q3A and UT2003/2004 did. Q4 was a spectacular failure, and UT3 never took of. If UT3 had more players I might be playing it right now and getting used to a much heavier, bulkier, smaller map super gorefest. I'm not asking for a UT2004 clone, i'm asking for more than a half-assed attempt at an arena game, unlike what Epic and IW gave with their last attempts. It took Epic an entire year just to make the menu system usable in UT3, and you still can't join from spectator among other bullshit things in UT3.

I mean, it takes a real spectacular effort to significantly remove all usability from a menu system, when UT2004 had a functional (albeit still worse than u-windows) system with all the options right there in front of you. At the very least they could of perfectly mimicked UT2004 and it would of been MILES ahead of their launch system, and still better than their current system.
 
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Spare-Flair said:
i miss the Quake 2 railgun and jailbreak maps.
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I logged countless hours with the second generation of Rocket Arena 2. That was so awesome. 12 v 12 rocket launcher fests. It was even awesome when you die because you got to spectate behind from those special rooms. Plus multiple arenas at the same time? You could do 1 vs 1 on one arena then instantly jump to another arena and do a huge team game. They just don't make 'em like they used to.
 
TheBlueChanell said:
UT3 is actually extremely fun but all of the major issues, especially server side, weren't fixed before titan. The community had all already jumped ship. I used to be able to find a couple of duel's every night and there was tournaments going on the weekends and what not but it's an absolute ghost town now.

Which is a huge shame.
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Yup, it took them over a year to fix the game. By then nobody cared, new games were out and the bad taste from the initial release was still there. If it had been released in the Titan state then it probably would have done reasonably well.
 
Arena Shooters have barely evolved since the Quake days. They've added vehicles, but they're still the "stick x players in a box and let them duke it out" recipe.
 
TheBlueChanell said:
UT3 is actually extremely fun but all of the major issues, especially server side, weren't fixed before titan. The community had all already jumped ship. I used to be able to find a couple of duel's every night and there was tournaments going on the weekends and what not but it's an absolute ghost town now.

Which is a huge shame.
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Exact same thing happened with Quake 4. Everything (mostly?) eventually was fixed....just no one really cared by the time it happened. If your going to release a multi player centric sequel, fkn at least make sure it's as good as it's predecessor.
 
Arena shooters died off because running around in a big open space spray-n-praying is boring as hell.
 
strend said:
Exact same thing happened with Quake 4. Everything (mostly?) eventually was fixed....just no one really cared by the time it happened. If your going to release a multi player centric sequel, fkn at least make sure it's as good as it's predecessor.
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Yeah. Which is a shame because both Quake 4, UT 3 are really good games now multiplayer wise.
 
DirectorC said:
Arena shooters died off because running around in a big open space spray-n-praying is boring as hell.
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I guess if you suck balls "spray and praying" would be an excellent strategy....

But by your logic, spamming LMG's through walls in COD4/MW2, hitting a button and having a Pavelow pick you up another 10 or so kills for free, spamming nades everywhere and noobtubing it up is more than boring as hell, its down right lethargic.
 
DirectorC said:
Arena shooters died off because running around in a big open space spray-n-praying is boring as hell.
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I disagree. I feel the skill level of the average PC gamer has slowly dwindled down, which thus means arena shooters aren't as popular. Face it: UT2004 is NOT noob friendly; whereas in MW2 anyone can join and get a lucky kill. In UT you spawn with no weapons except a shield and a shitty assault gun. It's no fun (for the average guy) because they have to find weapons and will usually get raped in the process.

I have over 2,000 hours logged into UT (I'm not lying. In actuality I probably have closer to 3,000 because I stopped using Xfire a few years ago) and I loved every hour. The game is a blast once you're able to hold your own. I played competitively with a couple teams (ATD, BoM, impact, eclipse) on the TWL TAM ladders, getting as far as #2 out of maybe 300 teams? It's sad to see the genre go, but companies are going to make what produces money. This is why UT3 was such a joke: The retail saw no chances from the beta and Epic took their sweet time fixing it. They care more about Gears of War than the series that made them popular.

I will always stand behind UT as having a higher necessary skill level than any Call of Duty or Halo game. It's so much more than just pointing and clicking.
 
I prefer the semi realistic crap shooters that make me think I'm Gi Joe. Thanks.
 
UT and UT2k4 were great, but in many cases could be extremely frustrating when you start playing it a year or two after release. I still have a shrink-wrapped copy of UT3 someone gave me.

There are some good, more recent arena games like TF2 and uhh... I haven't played many games since then. It's hard to find a good balance between easy to get into and fun for a long time.

More games will be targeted at more casual players as gaming becomes more mainstream.
 
I think that's part of it... the move towards console FPS shooters...

Arena shooters just wouldn't be fun on consoles, the movement required is too quick. I have a feeling it would be similar to playing quake3 on a laptop w/ the trackpad for aiming (which I just did a few weeks ago to test out my laptop's graphics card... forgot to bring a mouse with me haha). Once I got used to it, it was playable, but still not that much fun.

They're fun to play but the skill level varies too much... I try to play with friends in Quake3 and UT2004 and I destroy them, but I know in any real Clan match I'd get destroyed by anyone decent... So we go back to slower games that are still fun but the playing field is a lot more level.

The skill level required to play competitively is what ruins a lot of games... because people stop playing it once it's not as fresh as release and nobody new is going to start playing because the learning curve is too steep.
 
Umm, quake live?

Why don't we have any more being developed? Twitch based shooters are not about graphics, they're about gameplay, and the ones that exist already work. You're not going to steal the Quake or UT crowd easily. Modern games focus on graphics, and that's a step backwards for arena shooters. Quake 3 and UT99 came out at the perfect time. Back then, graphics were good enough, and not overpowered by ridiculous effects or distracting.

On a side note, here's an idea for a new arena shooter. Space based maps (indoor, but lots of variation in height. Players can walk or fly with jetpacks (not like Tribes where you're thrusting, but more like you're using noclip). If you do enough damage to someone in the air (hit them with a railgun, etc), they lose flight for two seconds and begin falling to the ground. This way battles typically start off in the air, and pretty soon you're on the ground shooting rockets back and forth, because neither person can avoid taking damage long enough to fly away. Would make for interesting capture the flag as well. Toss the flags up near a high point, where you need to be flying to reach them. Plus it's harder for people to retreat. Once you get someone down, they're at a movement disadvantage for a couple seconds.

Or, allow players to only fly, but remove all sense of an up or down. I can't even think of a game that has something similar to that. In terms of movement, I guess it would be like you're flying a spaceship or plane, where you can use every axis of rotation. Except, well, it would be a FPS, and the movements would be instant. It would definitely be a unique experience since you're fighting people that are flying sideways and upside down around you.

Anyway, that's just my thoughts.
 
I disagree. Quake 4 is a really good game if you know how to play it, but it's more Q2 than arena. Quake 3 Arena (duh) was probably the last real arena style mayhem game that owned. We don't know the future though. Maybe a resurgence will bring the genre back?
 
ShuttleLuv said:
I disagree. Quake 4 is a really good game if you know how to play it, but it's more Q2 than arena. Quake 3 Arena (duh) was probably the last real arena style mayhem game that owned. We don't know the future though. Maybe a resurgence will bring the genre back?
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The only problem with arena shooters making a resurgence is that you simply cannot do the movement options available to you on dual analog. Dodge jumping on an xbox 360 controller? Get real. Even just dodging the entire map with dual analog would be tiring. I couldn't imagine trying to replicate 1/15th the tricks I know on UT2004 TDM maps with a controller. I mean even simple jumps like the "air control around a corner walldodge jump off the face to the 100 shield from goliath campers paradise" jump would be impossible with dual analog.

Since arena shooters cannot in a Q3 or UT2004 or even a UT format be played as they are meant to be in the current state of consoles, I don't believe we'll ever see arena shooters make a comeback. And that is just movement. Then tying in accuracy so while doing the entire bit of acrobatics, you're maintaining 35-40% LG accuracy, might as well consider it impossible cause it took me years to do on the PC. Arena shooters are most likely forever dead unless an upstart company makes a kickass game and releases it with only the PC in mind.

I watched a demo, when UT3 came out, of the 2nd best, and 3rd best PS3 players do a 1v1 and I was sickened by the gameplay. They were terrible, it was a travesty to the game and the gametype watching them spam shock cores across Deck and missing every damn shock primary, using the flak primary across an entire hallway. Hitscan accuracy? What's that? Adept bots would of kicked their asses....
 
Reading all this sounds like a memorial service for Arena Games... I completely agree with the OP, I mean UT2K4 is my personal favorite Arena shooter just because the speed, graphics, and modes of play are awesome... Oh yeah, and the ridiculous amounts of maps...

But you know what... we need to stop crying and actually start playing the games again. In fact, i'm gonna go install UT2K4 right now. I mean, if we can get the word out and maybe even if enough people hear... they might even just make another Arena Shooter again. I mean, I can already see the announcement a few years from now... and you know what they're going to call it? Not UT4, or UT2K... but it's just going to be called Unreal Tournament... Fuck graphics... the game is going to play amazing, perform on a huge variety of system configurations and is going to usher a entire new generation of arena shooter gamers...

I think I slipped into a fantasy for a minute there.... But seriously, let's just start getting together and start playing the games again. I don't see why it would be impossible... people already love blowing shit up and frankly, games these days just don't have the replayability that those games had... that's the key... replayability. I mean, these days the only genre you could get as much gameplay time out of that we got out of arena shooters back in the day... is now MMOs.

Anyway, if we want the genre of arena shooters to come back... it's gonna have to start with us. I don't think it's dead... just like every fashion eventually comes back, I think arena shooters have the same chance of coming around again. They're too fun, and offer way too much replayability to not be considered again.

P.S. Oh yeah, and one more thing... fuck arena shooters on consoles. I'm talking about PC gaming... nothing else. PC > Consoles for shooters in general. You just can't beat the keyboard and mouse.
 
I think the reason is simple, gaming is in the process of shifting from a niche market to mainstream. As a result to earn the most amount of money most developers are starting to develop games that are more accessible to a wider audience, games like TF2 and MW2 are perfect examples.

Over the last few years skill has become extremely normalized in multiplayer games, it means low skilled players can still join in and get some kills and have fun. TF2 with its crits is a perfect example, sometimes players (for no reason) do 3x more damage, so if you're spamming rockets or grenades and you happen to crit then anyone even remotely near the blast dies instantly. Most of the game is set in tight corridoors where spam is most effective.

In a game like UT2004 you moved fast and most of the time in open areas, you had a large array of weapons at your disposal at any one time and you had to earn your kills, it was very hard to kill from just spam alone. The UT and Quake franchises aren't newb friendly and most gamers today are newbs, simply due to the fact that gaming has gone mainstream.
 
i was addicted to ut2k4 like heroin. I played "competitively" in the Australasian scene and I honestly dont think any game will come close to the fun i got out of ut2k4. The problem with ut3 is that it has been consolised to the max. Anyone can get in a game and grab the rox and get a kill. in ut2k4 i didnt get a kill for the first 3 or 4 death match maps i played! but i was hooked. A good player in ut2k4 could literally fly around a map and that skill has been nullified in ut3 as the weapons are so over powered and the movement is so nerfed.
I used to LOVE trying to attack in a full pub game in maul, that was a true test of how good a flag carrier you truly were and it helped me hone my carrying. citadel and grendel keep 5v5 ctf PUG games were my favourite. Loved it so much.
The day ut3 was released was the day the franchise died
 
Shlomo said:
With it being about 6 years now since the demo of the last good arena shooter was released (UT2004), I was watching some old frag videos made for 2k4 and I got to wondering as to why such a genre, which was KING in the early decade, completely die out. With straight turds being released like Q4 and UT3, have companies (IW/Epic) completely given up on this genre? Personally, it's my favorite, and the one genre which purely takes the most practice and skill to compete at. I spent over 900 hours in UT2004, playing in TWL ladders, CAL seasons, couple of tournaments, and various PUG channels on IRC, I severely miss the pureness of the arena shooter.

Who else really wants to see a blockbuster title revive this genre? I'm completely tired of modern shooters, and WWII shooters, and every other damn semi-realistic crap shooter out there which makes people think they're some GI-Joe. Why can't I be the steroid'ed up guy with super futuristic (NON MILITARY) weapons solely created for the goal of killing other people in the arena, with a huge arsenal, no reloading, amazing movement options available to me?

Cliffs:
Genre is dead
That really fucking sucks
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It's the "amazing movement options" that ruined the game for me. I can't stand jumping and bunnyhopping in regular games, much less when you can jump 500 feet in the air.
 
no way i can dedicate 900 hours to compete, that and the lazer guns make cheats incredibly usefull to cheaters. I stay away from those because of it.
 
Unreal Tournament 2004 was by far the best game ever to come out of the genre. I'd have been happy if UT3 was little more than some new maps and updated graphics. Instead they "broke" whatever it was that made UT work in the first place. The single player "story" and horrid characters made that mode simply unbearable. It was too stupid for me to be able to stand it. They screwed up Onslaught (now called Warfare) and it sucks the hairs right off of donkey nuts. They dropped assault mode. That was stupid because people bitched when Unreal Tournament 2003 lacked this mode and it was added back into Unreal Tournament 2004. Evidently Epic didn't learn from their earlier mistakes. By the time they fixed Unreal Tournament 3 and made it a decent game, no one cared. There are hardly any maps out there for it and what is out there is fairly lame. There aren't any good skins, etc. Basically it was too little, too late. Everyone jumped ship (not that many people were ever onboard anyway) and the game is basically dead. I occasionally load it up and play against some bots but that gets old pretty quick. Sadly that's about the only way you can even play that game with as little action as there is on the servers.
 
I used to be an arena nut but the day I played counterstrike it all changed for me, and I just cant look back.
 
Juic3 said:
I used to be an arena nut but the day I played counterstrike it all changed for me, and I just cant look back.
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Wow. I just can't understand that. That game is far too slow. I just can't stand it.
 
Just play Halo, is basically the exact same game.

Run jump spin shoot rockets.

All jokes aside you guys dont consider Halo an arena shooter?
 
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aKrippler said:
Just play Halo, is basically the exact same game.

Run jump spin shoot rockets.

All jokes aside you guys dont consider Halo an arena shooter?
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I wouldn't know. It is a console game and I don't wish to play it. I don't play the PC ports of the game because they are lousy. Simple as that.
 
aKrippler said:
Just play Halo, is basically the exact same game.

Run jump spin shoot rockets.

All jokes aside you guys dont consider Halo an arena shooter?
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Halo moves at the speed of molasses. I always felt like you couldn't even bother to run away, since everyone moves so slow. Halo is more about who points the gun the best with an analog stick IMO.

I played tons of Quake 2 back in the day, and the only PC shooter I played since that I loved nearly as much was UT 2k4. On the xbox, I love Gears 1 for its frantic jumping and shooting...but Gears 2 they moved to a strategic team shooter mentality and went overkill with it IMOP
 
Dan_D said:
Wow. I just can't understand that. That game is far too slow. I just can't stand it.
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I would prefer a multiplayer game to be "slow". It should be more methodical than just running around. I haven't found the perfect online multiplayer yet. This may sound stupid, but killing someone should be as much about luck as it is skill. I've shot a paintball gun before and have fairly accurate aim. But I'm not a professional player. However if you put me in a building with a professional player starting off on different floors, I should have just as good a chance of shooting him as he has of shooting me assuming I'm not running through the halls like some butt-monkey. There should be a little bit of randomness to it.

Me and 5 of my friends played Deathmatch on SWAT 3 one time. It was great. We were inside a hospital. It was funny when you came around a corner and saw one of the others trying to sneak down the hallway all careful only to get popped in the back by me. Everything online wants to go at 100mph.

I will forgive Team Fortress 2 though (greatest game ever).
 
I thought UT3 was fine, and I absolutely love QIV (and any Quake for that matter...) So, I don't exactly agree with you. However, numbers do speak, and more people seem to have moved on into tactical style play. That's great, but I do miss a good round of Quake with friends. Maybe if we're very lucky Doom 4 could bring it back? Who knows. I enjoy the hybrids like Quake Wars. Some tactics, and plenty of fast action. I still play ET:QW once in a while.

I guess people just crave a more complex experience. I do to a degree as well, but I still love a good visceral twitch response game. I'm good at them. Not amazing, but good enough to be able to enjoy it. :)
 
htpc_user said:
I would prefer a multiplayer game to be "slow". It should be more methodical than just running around.
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Quake 3 Arena/Rocket Arena 3 *were* methodical and cerebral... more so than *any* other game when you really get down to it.....

seriously, you had to think *fast* to hang in there, and you had to think *smart* if you wanted to win....

I agree with the OP and others that already commented, the problem is a generational one. Those of us that came of age with the MP games of the 90s are living real lives now, and since the 90s, the less skill demanding, more noob friendly Halos, Call of Duties, and Battlefields have all come and sold like gangbusters to the generation that has replaced us (who were too young to really get into the Quake 3, UT days), and now the current generation is accustomed to a much slower, less skill intensive style of play.

In short: the old player base isn't the main audience now, and the new one isn't as skilled, or as interested in that style of demanding gameplay any more.

Thats what it is really, its sad, but at least we still have Quake Live....


My kingdom for a Rocket Arena resurrection though.... :(

thanks guys for making me depressed for the day....
 
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