Two computers in one?

Raxxath

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
491
I asked this question here a month ago, though in a rather round-about way, and didn't quite get the answer I was looking for, so I'm revisiting the topic. I'm trying to figure out a way to have two completely separate computers on one computer's hardware. I want to be able to switch between them easily each time I start up, with either the press of a button, or the flick of a switch, no messing around with things inside of the case. I want to be able to load one with spyware and keyloggers(just for example, I don't actually do that ;)), and have the other be completely unaffected.

I found someone else asking the same thing here. This is one of the answers he got-

Install your production Windows on the first hard drive (the one you've set your BIOS to boot from), then install your disposable Windows on the second drive. The second installation should make an entry in the first one's BOOT.INI, allowing you to pick which one you want during the Windows boot sequence.

Next, boot your production Windows and use the Disk Management console to remove the drive letter from the disposable Windows' partition.

Next, boot your disposable Windows and do the same thing from that side.

Windows won't touch partitions that have no drive letter or mount point defined. The only disadvantage of this arrangement over doing things the BIOS or GRUB way is that if your production Windows goes belly-up, you might not be able to boot your disposable one.

Would this accomplish what I'm looking for? It sounds fairly simple and effective, exactly what I'm looking for, but I don't know if it will work.

I do run anti-virus and anti-spyware, and I know how to protect myself, but its the principle that matters to me. For all intents and purposes, I want to have two 100% separate PCs, while only taking up the space of one, and only paying for one.
 
if you want to be hardcore about it you could always put a switch between the hard drives power cable (will require some cutting and soldering) and run it to the front of your case..

have both drives set to cable select. Power one off, and power the other on, and it'll boot to the on drive. Turn machine off, flip two switches, and go.
 
The only problem is that I don't have any experience with soldering and that sort of thing. Things like virtual machines are also beyond my scope, so I need a simpler solution, unfortunately.
 
It -will- work? Exactly how I want it to? No one in the link I gave confirmed that that solution would work or not.

I want to be completely sure before I spend a couple hundred dollars on another hard drive and OS. I will need another hard drive and OS, correct? I couldn't do that same thing through partitions on one HDD, could I?
 
It -will- work? Exactly how I want it to? No one in the link I gave confirmed that that solution would work or not.

I want to be completely sure before I spend a couple hundred dollars on another hard drive and OS. I will need another hard drive and OS, correct? I couldn't do that same thing through partitions on one HDD, could I?

You could do it all one one drive if you set up two partitions. Alot of people do this -- ever hear the term 'dual booting', or 'triple booting'? That is what that is, basically. :)

Though it is more commonly done with two or three different OS's, ie, xp + vista, windows + linux, etc.

But yea, you can do it all from a single drive. I am unsure if you will need another windows license, though. It technically is still the same machine.. so.. I dunno?

I'm sure someone here can answer that, if not you could always call up MS and ask them.


edit: you'll also maybe want to edit your boot.ini on your main partition (the first one) and change the names around. Instead of seeing Windows Xp Professional twice in a list, you can have it say "wicked good windows" and "omg virus run away windows".. just to help you tell which is which. :p
 
But yea, you can do it all from a single drive. I am unsure if you will need another windows license, though. It technically is still the same machine.. so.. I dunno?

Yeah - practically speaking, I'm not sure how Windows would behave. On the one hand, it's one computer, and only one installation would be in use at a single time, so activation shouldn't be an issue. However, I'm not sure what WGA would do.

From the EULA for XP Pro:

Installation and use. You may install, use, access, display and run one copy of the Product on a single computer,
such as a workstation, terminal or other device (“Workstation Computer”). The Product may not be used by
more than two (2) processors at any one time on any single Workstation Computer.

Which reads as if you would need a second license since you're limited to a single installation on a single computer. I'm just not sure if it's enforcable, if you did decide to give it a go...
 
Yeah - practically speaking, I'm not sure how Windows would behave. On the one hand, it's one computer, and only one installation would be in use at a single time, so activation shouldn't be an issue. However, I'm not sure what WGA would do.

From the EULA for XP Pro:



Which reads as if you would need a second license since you're limited to a single installation on a single computer. I'm just not sure if it's enforcable, if you did decide to give it a go...


Loophole time:

If Installation 1 is
Code:
[U]Input[/U]
Install = True
Use = True 
Access = True
Display = True
Run  =True

then Installation 2 not running in a virtual machine has to be
Code:
[U]Input[/U]
Install = True
Use = false
Access = false
Display = false
Run  = false

The conditional "and" in the EULA means that you have to be doing all of those things together for that condition to apply. Since two installations (again excluding VMs) cannot possibly have all factors being true, then that condition is null.
 
You could do it all one one drive if you set up two partitions. Alot of people do this -- ever hear the term 'dual booting', or 'triple booting'? That is what that is, basically. :)

Though it is more commonly done with two or three different OS's, ie, xp + vista, windows + linux, etc.

But yea, you can do it all from a single drive. I am unsure if you will need another windows license, though. It technically is still the same machine.. so.. I dunno?

I'm sure someone here can answer that, if not you could always call up MS and ask them.


edit: you'll also maybe want to edit your boot.ini on your main partition (the first one) and change the names around. Instead of seeing Windows Xp Professional twice in a list, you can have it say "wicked good windows" and "omg virus run away windows".. just to help you tell which is which. :p

I really hope you're right, you've got my hopes up. :) A relatively easy and cheaper solution than I was expecting... but I don't know how to edit the boot.ini, so that's something to figure out.

So the partitions will act the same as separate drives, and I'll be able to remove their drive letters like explained in answer I quoted in my OP?
 
I really hope you're right, you've got my hopes up. :) A relatively easy and cheaper solution than I was expecting... but I don't know how to edit the boot.ini, so that's something to figure out.

So the partitions will act the same as separate drives, and I'll be able to remove their drive letters like explained in answer I quoted in my OP?

Windows treats partitions just like individual drive. So yes.
 
I have to ask one more time- There is no chance of spyware or slow-down of any kind from one partition affecting the other? It just seems odd to me that no one suggested this in my other thread. :p

I suppose I'll try to install XP on both, and if that doesn't work, I'll buy a copy of Vista and dual boot, as I've been wanting to try it anyway.

On a somewhat related note to that, does that Vista to XP downgrade option still exist? If I bought Vista Ultimate, couldn't I just get XP with it for free, then? I wouldn't be able to use both at once though, would I?

Sorry for all the questions... I'm still learning. :eek:
 
If Virtual Machines are too complicated for you (you're words), there really is only one solution left. You should get a removable drive cage for your computer, and keep two hard drives. Pop in the one you want to boot off of, and turn the computer on. It is simple, keeps them isolated, and accomplishes what you want, licensing issues aside.
 
I have to ask one more time- There is no chance of spyware or slow-down of any kind from one partition affecting the other? It just seems odd to me that no one suggested this in my other thread. :p

Correct. If the OS doesn't show it as available, software can't access it at the file level.

I suppose I'll try to install XP on both, and if that doesn't work, I'll buy a copy of Vista and dual boot, as I've been wanting to try it anyway.
On a somewhat related note to that, does that Vista to XP downgrade option still exist? If I bought Vista Ultimate, couldn't I just get XP with it for free, then? I wouldn't be able to use both at once though, would I?

Can't use both at once, no.

Sorry for all the questions... I'm still learning. :eek:
 
If Virtual Machines are too complicated for you (you're words), there really is only one solution left. You should get a removable drive cage for your computer, and keep two hard drives. Pop in the one you want to boot off of, and turn the computer on. It is simple, keeps them isolated, and accomplishes what you want, licensing issues aside.

What's wrong with the solution I quoted in my first post?

A few people suggested the removable drive cage idea, and it would work very well I imagine if it weren't for the fact that I'll be switching between the two installs pretty often. I don't want to have to mess around inside the case all the time.
 
You're thinking of an internal case cage. That's not what they mean. *THIS* is the kind of cage they mean. It's just an enclosure on rails that you mount the drive in, then you can just swap back and forth by pulling the drive out and swapping it. No opening the case involved.
 
What's wrong with the solution I quoted in my first post?
Because it's overly complicated. I'm still not sure what you want to accomplish here, so that would possibly change the suggestions. If you are planning to do all of this to have a working computer after a malware infection, there are far better ways to go about it. If this is for testing and playing around with the OS, ie. learning, Virtual machines are your best bet, and are very very easy to set up.
 
You're thinking of an internal case cage. That's not what they mean. *THIS* is the kind of cage they mean. It's just an enclosure on rails that you mount the drive in, then you can just swap back and forth by pulling the drive out and swapping it. No opening the case involved.

I see, I figured it was something similar. I'll consider that option if for some reason this solution doesn't work out.

Because it's overly complicated. I'm still not sure what you want to accomplish here, so that would possibly change the suggestions. If you are planning to do all of this to have a working computer after a malware infection, there are far better ways to go about it. If this is for testing and playing around with the OS, ie. learning, Virtual machines are your best bet, and are very very easy to set up.

I just know very little about virtual machines, and was told that they couldn't accomplish what I wanted: complete separateness between the two installs. I want to have one completely secure machine that I only use for orders, passwords, that sort of thing, and another that I can do whatever else I want on, without ever having to worry about the secure part being compromised. Normally, I would think people would have two different computers for this sort of thing, but I wanted to save space, money, and such.

Thank you all for the help, I'll give the two partitions a try.
 
On a somewhat related note to that, does that Vista to XP downgrade option still exist? If I bought Vista Ultimate, couldn't I just get XP with it for free, then? I wouldn't be able to use both at once though, would I?

Can't use both at once, no.

To elaborate: if you buy the retail upgrade version of Vista, than per the EULA, your license for XP is null and void. You can go back to XP, but then you can't be using Vista.

If you buy an OEM version of Vista, you don't have the same downgrade rights (the responsibility for that lies with the system builder, in most cases). If you buy the retail full version of Vista, I think you're also S.O.L. because you personally chose to start there (rather than buy XP and then upgrade).
 
I see, I figured it was something similar. I'll consider that option if for some reason this solution doesn't work out.



I just know very little about virtual machines, and was told that they couldn't accomplish what I wanted: complete separateness between the two installs. I want to have one completely secure machine that I only use for orders, passwords, that sort of thing, and another that I can do whatever else I want on, without ever having to worry about the secure part being compromised. Normally, I would think people would have two different computers for this sort of thing, but I wanted to save space, money, and such.

Thank you all for the help, I'll give the two partitions a try.

A virtual machine setup will do exactly that. The guest OS would be completely isolated from the host and vice versa. Whatever happens inside the virtual machine can't affect the host because the guest doesn't know that it's being run inside a VM.
 
To elaborate: if you buy the retail upgrade version of Vista, than per the EULA, your license for XP is null and void. You can go back to XP, but then you can't be using Vista.

If you buy an OEM version of Vista, you don't have the same downgrade rights (the responsibility for that lies with the system builder, in most cases). If you buy the retail full version of Vista, I think you're also S.O.L. because you personally chose to start there (rather than buy XP and then upgrade).

I was under the impression that if you had Vista Business/Ultimate and weren't satisfied, you could call Microsoft and have them give you XP Professional to use instead. Though its in rather broken English, I think this is one person's successful experience on the matter. Maybe I'm not reading it right, but doesn't this state what I think?

OEM Downgrade Rights for desktop operating systems apply to Windows Vista Business & Vista Ultimate End users can use the following media for their downgrade: Volume Licensing media (provided the end user has a Volume Licensing agreement), Retail (FPP), or System Builder hologram CD (provided the software is acquired in accordance with the Microsoft OEM System Builder License). Use of the downgraded operating system is governed by the Windows Vista Business License Terms, and the end user cannot use both the downgrade operating system and Windows Vista Business



A virtual machine setup will do exactly that. The guest OS would be completely isolated from the host and vice versa. Whatever happens inside the virtual machine can't affect the host because the guest doesn't know that it's being run inside a VM.

Sorry, I was told that it would work in that respect, but that virtual machines don't work with gaming. Is that the case? I am planning on having a couple games installed.
 
I was under the impression that if you had Vista Business/Ultimate and weren't satisfied, you could call Microsoft and have them give you XP Professional to use instead. Though its in rather broken English, I think this is one person's successful experience on the matter. Maybe I'm not reading it right, but doesn't this state what I think?







Sorry, I was told that it would work in that respect, but that virtual machines don't work with gaming. Is that the case? I am planning on having a couple games installed.

No, VM don't work well with gaming, but you don't install your games in the VM. Install them in the host. You use the VM to isolate hazardous activities from the main system.
 
Sorry, I was told that it would work in that respect, but that virtual machines don't work with gaming. Is that the case? I am planning on having a couple games installed.
This is true, that 3D support is very limited, if at all in a VM. I'm still going back to the questions of why? You don't need to run two copies of the OS to protect yourself. You're insisting on doing the equivalent to major surgery to heal a blister.

Let's start at the beginning, and find out what you intend to do with two OSes. I know you said you plan to switch back and forth, so what is the purpose of doing so?
 
I've already explained what I'll be doing and why I need it somewhat. Peace of mind is important to me, and the first solution I outlined makes the most sense for my needs.

Virtual Machines sound great, but I just don't think they're quite what I want. Are VMs also unable to play videos?
 
I've already explained what I'll be doing and why I need it somewhat. Peace of mind is important to me, and the first solution I outlined makes the most sense for my needs.

Virtual Machines sound great, but I just don't think they're quite what I want. Are VMs also unable to play videos?

They can play videos. Just not 3D intensive games because of the lack of decent 3d acceleration
 
You can play simple/old games like Diablo2 in VM

VM is also very good if you often need to switch between OSs - it takes about 2 seconds;) and unlike Dualboot you dont need to restart PC.
 
Peace of mind is important to me, and the first solution I outlined makes the most sense for my needs.
If it makes sense to pay for two licenses, rather than use a few free tools and some common sense, to each his own.
 
If it makes sense to pay for two licenses, rather than use a few free tools and some common sense, to each his own.

I need the ability to play a few modern games on both installs, so that seals the deal for me, I'm afraid.
 
I think you may be missing what I am trying to say. You don't need two installs. If you really are that worried, get an external USB drive and a drive imaging program. You don't need to switch back and forth between two installs to maintain safety. And, without needing details, if you plan to be visiting some less than reputable websites, that's even more of a reason to go with a VM.

You don't need two installs of the same OS on the same computer to be safe. Without a VM or a removable drive cage, you also run the risk of infecting both with a virus, depending on the type. No one will argue with the fact you want to be safe, but there are plenty of ways to do so without mixing in paranoia and insanity. My bigger question would be, if you need to go to ridiculous levels on your computer, what is it you are doing/downloading that would put you in this much danger? If you were worried that your car was going to be unreliable, would you buy two of them? If you were worried that your spouse would be unfaithful to you, would you marry twins (religious issues aside)?

If you truly want to be safe, start discussing ways to do that, normally. Rename the built-in admin account, and give it a super strong password. Use a non-admin level account for everyday usage. Run some good AV software, with two or three good spyware removers installed. If you do all of that, you'll have nothing to worry about.
 
why go to all the trouble to save some passwords? who is going to hack into your computer randomly? use a router, firewall and some software to detect threats or spend 300 to buy a crap laptop to do your banking and do your shady business on your main pc.
 
Update: I made two partitions, installed XP on the first, Vista on the second. In XP, I removed the drive letter of the Vista partition using the disk management console without a problem. In Vista, when I try to remove the XP partition's drive letter, I get:

"Windows cannot modify the drive letter of your volume. This may happen if your volume is a system or boot volume, or has page files."

While in Vista, the C drive(Vista) is listed as "Boot, Page File, Crash Dump, Logical Drive." The D drive(XP) is listed as "System, Active, Primary Partition."

Is there a way to get around this? I could really use some help here. :(
 
Excuse me while I go write a virus that copies itself to unmounted partitions to render your whole scheme moot :p

In all seriousness, it looks like, for some reason, your Vista install saw the XP partition and put critical system files on it. This is indicated by the fact that the XP partition is listed as a "system" partition in Vista. Unmounting it would be akin to wiping out your System32 folder.

The problem is that either installer might leverage the additional space it sees on the other NTFS partition.

One way to solve this would be to buy a second hard drive. You could then install Vista to the first with the second disconnected, and then install XP to the second with the first disconnected. It should then be trivial to get the two OSes to ignore each other's drives, since they can't possibly have put critical files on them during the install process.

Note: whatever way you choose to do this, note that Vista can boot XP, but not vice versa. If you get a virus that frags your boot information in XP, you'll only potentially lose XP. If you get a virus that frags boot information in Vista, you'll potentially lose both. I really hope you're doing this with XP as the throwaway OS.

Another thing is the conceit that simply unmounting a drive isolates it from the OS. It's unlikely, but certainly possible, that a virus would touch a non-system partition, which is what your secure OS's partition would seem to be while you were running the throwaway OS. But, there is something to be said for paranoia, so it's probably a good idea to unmount the drive. But if we're assuming a virus is smart enough to touch other partitions, what makes you think it's not smart enough to mount them too? Anything you do in software, such as taking away a partition's drive letter, can potentially be undone in software by malicious code in an exploit. Something software cannot do is reach out and connect a drive that is physically disconnected. The absolute safest way to do this is to unplug the drive that is not in use.

There's another, less drastic option that should be just as safe too. One of my motherboards offered me to turn off SATA channels 1 and 2 or 3 and 4. Put the secure OS on channel 1 and the throwaway OS on channel 3. When booting the secure OS, disable 3 and 4. When booting the throwaway OS, disable 1 and 2. This, however, is dependent on BIOS support; some motherboards will have options like this, some won't.

I'd go into detail about solutions that involve taking backup images of your OS, but I get the feeling data security is among your concerns. Restoring from a backup image will remove the virus, but it won't unsend your personal data to the hacker.

The VM option is out too, since you seem to want to game in the throwaway OS. Which makes sense to me, since the first, and pretty much only, virus I ever got was about nine years ago. Some guy on the MSN gaming zone promised this program would install hacks for that add-on to Jedi Knight. He lied :)

Hope this clears some things up. For what it's worth, I think you're just being paranoid, as it's been ages since my virus program encountered any threats, and many others get along just fine with safe surfing habits and without antivirus software. If you insist upon making a tinfoil hat, at least ensure that you wear it properly.
 
Note: whatever way you choose to do this, note that Vista can boot XP, but not vice versa. If you get a virus that frags your boot information in XP, you'll only potentially lose XP. If you get a virus that frags boot information in Vista, you'll potentially lose both. I really hope you're doing this with XP as the throwaway OS.

XP is indeed the throwaway OS, Vista is meant to be the secure one.

There's another, less drastic option that should be just as safe too. One of my motherboards offered me to turn off SATA channels 1 and 2 or 3 and 4. Put the secure OS on channel 1 and the throwaway OS on channel 3. When booting the secure OS, disable 3 and 4. When booting the throwaway OS, disable 1 and 2. This, however, is dependent on BIOS support; some motherboards will have options like this, some won't.

I haven't seen anything like that in the BIOS, so I doubt I have that option. I'm on a Intel Bad Axe 2.

I'm less worried about viruses, and more worried about trojans, keyloggers, bad spyware, and such. I'm quite "internet savvy," and I know how to protect myself, but that won't always keep me completely safe. Back when I played WoW, people were putting keyloggers into addons that looked completely harmless, so they could steal accounts. When a friend told me that they saw me online when I couldn't have possibly been on, I freaked out a little.

I really want to keep it to a single drive too, if at all possible. This rig is meant to be silent to my ears, and another hard drive means more noise, more heat, and of course, more money that I don't have at the moment. That's also why I didn't go for the drive cage idea, as great as it sounded otherwise.

Everyone assured me that this would work, so I'm kind of left wondering why it isn't. Is there anything I can do from here?
 
Bump... Is this problem occurring because I'm using Vista? Would going XP/XP work?

Or is there any chance using a third partition or something for the system files could work?
 
I'm less worried about viruses, and more worried about trojans, keyloggers, bad spyware, and such.
Trojans, keyloggers, and bad spyware are subsets of what people colloquially refer to as "viruses" or "malicious code."
I'm quite "internet savvy," and I know how to protect myself, but that won't always keep me completely safe. Back when I played WoW, people were putting keyloggers into addons that looked completely harmless, so they could steal accounts. When a friend told me that they saw me online when I couldn't have possibly been on, I freaked out a little.
Okay, but let's say that next time this happens, instead of just being a keylogger, the trojan you install is a bit more complicated. Not only does it log your keystrokes and grab passwords, but it searches your hard drive for passwords that might be ripe for harvesting. Examples include FTP clients, AIM clients, or e-mail clients.

But you say your "sensitive" information is on the other partition? If your XP install has been compromised, there's nothing stopping the writer of the virus from including snippets of code that look for other partitions, mount them if necessary, and then troll them looking for personal info. What you unmounted in software can be remounted by exploit code.
I really want to keep it to a single drive too, if at all possible. This rig is meant to be silent to my ears, and another hard drive means more noise, more heat, and of course, more money that I don't have at the moment. That's also why I didn't go for the drive cage idea, as great as it sounded otherwise.
A second hard drive hardly adds a noticeable amount of heat to the system, especially when only one drive will be in use at a time. A second hard drive will not add significantly more noise to a system, especially one in which only one drive is being used at a time.
Everyone assured me that this would work, so I'm kind of left wondering why it isn't. Is there anything I can do from here?
You need to reinstall both OSes in a way that they can't see and muck with the other OS's partition during their install process.

One way to do this is with the partition table. You'll need a Linux livecd for your messing with the partition table. Assuming a 500 GB drive, set up a 250 GB partition and leave the rest as unallocated space. Install XP to this partition. Now boot back into Linux, create a second 250 GB partition, and then delete the first partition. Install Vista to the second partition. Finally, boot back into Linux one final time and "create" the first partition again. As long as the partition is defined exactly as it was when you installed XP, it will still be there, as the only things you've written to since you installed it are the partition table and the Vista partition.

I suggested a second hard drive because it was a far simpler (and more secure!) solution. Now you know why.
 
The simple fact is, if you'd just be honest about what you are trying to do, you would get better advice.

I posted in your other thread when you weren't clear about your intentions then either.
load one with spyware and keyloggers (just for example, I don't actually do that
WTF does that mean? The first minute you connect either "operating system" to the internet you will be vulnerable to these things. You'll have 2 infected systems.

There is a better and easier way to do what you want. But you aren't telling us what you want or what your real concerns are. Aside from that, every other option has been pointed out to you. Just tell us the truth.
 
If you insist upon making a tinfoil hat, at least ensure that you wear it properly.

That quote has found a new home in my sig, unless you object of course. :D


This has been an interesting discussion to read. Seems to me that swapping hard drives is the easiest and most secure solution but I do like reading about the different approaches.

Raxxath, do you really need to be able to game on both installations?


-Jade
 
I don't understand why the OP doesn't just set up a VM. Put the trash OS inside it and it can't affect the host as long as you set it up right. Much easier than swapping partitions, boot loaders, and drive cages.
 
All the VMWare, 2 Hard Drive, Dual Boot, BIOS Disable, etc suggestions aside, along with just accepting the fact that this is a silly solution to attempt to deal with potential security issues let's start back at the beginning. Here's the original request:

I'm trying to figure out a way to have two completely separate computers on one computer's hardware. I want to be able to switch between them easily each time I start up, with either the press of a button, or the flick of a switch, no messing around with things inside of the case. I want to be able to load one with spyware and keyloggers(just for example, I don't actually do that ), and have the other be completely unaffected.

To answer: It is not possible to run two machines on the same physical hardware and switch between then with a "flick of a switch" without using Virtual Machines. However since you apparently want to game on both (why I don't know since you're already defeating the purpose of the "secure OS" at that point anyway) that's out. Your only other recourse besides purchasing new hardware is to dual boot a system either on the same HD or on two separate drives. To dual boot on the same system there are all sorts of wonderful tutorials that google can help you find such as this one. Again, if you're going to do this you need to have some technical expertise which I'm unclear if you do. However since you seem insistent on pursuing this course my best advice is to use this as a learning experience as to how to get deeper into the workings of your PC. I may even suggest keeping a log of what you did since you are probably only one of a few people to take this route to achieve this goal. Keep in mind that to truly secure yourself you'll want to practice DiD (Defense in Depth) So be sure to have a good router/firewall, software firewall in a tightly locked down mode, AV, Anti-Spyware, Highly secure passwords which change frequently, any of course access to your system physically restricted through various means. For additional documents on securing your system I suggest you check out the National Institute of Standards and Technology who have tons of white papers on the subject.

Good Luck, I'm sure you have a bright future of government service ahead of you. ;)
 
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