U.S. Agents Can Seize Travelers' Laptops

Methadras said:
How many times do I have to tell you guys, ENCRYPT!!! It's simple and it's free. TrueCrypt.com. Learn it, use it, love it.
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And if you don't give them the key to decrypt it they will hold your laptop for an indefinite amount of time. Now that might be useful for someone who does have nefarious files on there, but for me? I'd rather not the government keep my property because I wouldn't comply with them finding technicalities with how to violate my rights.
 
Shit like this scares me. I'm transporting a server, a laptop, and a desktop across the US/CAN boarder for school.
 
According to the article, it says this policy has been in place since the beginning. You guys are only just hearing about it because of civil liberty groups pressuring Homeland Security to release this information. Basically, nothing's changed except you now know about it.

Not condoning it though. Just saying, don't get all fired up as if this was something new. Be a good citizen and write to your congressman.
 
kllrnohj said:
What? Communism has nothing to do with this. Please read up on what communism actually IS before you continue to use the word: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
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right. This is actually more akin to fascism.

i could write a paragraph on this, but most of what i could say has already been said.

so i will sum it up. These are criminal acts against the citizens of the us. I think it's time we as a nation listen to the founding fathers. We are supposed to stand up against these things.
 
Man I love being in the military. A few years ago I was traveling with laptop HDDs in a case from Japan back into the US. We stopped at two different airports while traveling through Japan, and twice they asked for me to open the case. I informed them that the HDDs where property of the US Army and I was not allowed to let them open the case. They agreed and just X-Rayed the case. Then I entered the US via San Francisco International (or whatever its called). The security guys scanned the case then asked for me to open it so they could inspect it. I told them that it was not possible and that I was on orders with the army to travel with the HDDs. They tried to bully me into opening the case and I continued to refuse. So what did they do, they tried to detain me and the cases. I had them call their supervisor and showed him the orders, stating that I was carrying laptop HDDs under official business. That shut them up immediately and I was released, HDD case still unopened.
 
Between the US government and the cost of fuel, air-travel in this country is all but dead.
 
Okay, to start with, everyone please realize that this only applies to people coming into the US from outside the US. The Constitution does not apply in that case because the person coming in is outside the US. I'm not saying it should be that way, but there is no way this could ever be extended to domestic flights because the Constitution very obviously prohibits that.

Yes, I agree that laptop seizure without cause is taking things a little too far. The good news is we only have to endure six more months of this. I think America will be okay. In the meantime, what's worse than this is the attitude that intelligent Americans have towards their country, if this forum is any reasonable sample. You think America is fascist? Maybe you should think again because in a fascist country, you would be arrested just for making that statement. These three pages of anti-government posts actually prove themselves incorrect, simply by existing! The United States is still one of the best countries in the world and one of the most free countries as well. It may not be the most free country, but it is close.

Also, the fact remains that we the people of the United States still have power over our government. Many people think the ability to vote means nothing, but in reality, it means everything! Lawmakers cannot do anything if they are not elected to office. Moreover, as others have said, we can always refuse to participate in any activies we believe the government is mismanaging, and we can even have the full ability to leave the country (you can't do that in communist/fascist nations) and stop paying taxes to this government. The answer is yes, citizens do have the power.

Perhaps that's the real problem with America. Everyone intelligent enough to solve problems is too apathetic to do anything about them.
 
HOCP4ME said:
Okay, to start with, everyone please realize that this only applies to people coming into the US from outside the US. The Constitution does not apply in that case because the person coming in is outside the US. I'm not saying it should be that way, but there is no way this could ever be extended to domestic flights because the Constitution very obviously prohibits that.

Yes, I agree that laptop seizure without cause is taking things a little too far. The good news is we only have to endure six more months of this. I think America will be okay. In the meantime, what's worse than this is the attitude that intelligent Americans have towards their country, if this forum is any reasonable sample. You think America is fascist? Maybe you should think again because in a fascist country, you would be arrested just for making that statement. These three pages of anti-government posts actually prove themselves incorrect, simply by existing! The United States is still one of the best countries in the world and one of the most free countries as well. It may not be the most free country, but it is close.

Also, the fact remains that we the people of the United States still have power over our government. Many people think the ability to vote means nothing, but in reality, it means everything! Lawmakers cannot do anything if they are not elected to office. Moreover, as others have said, we can always refuse to participate in any activies we believe the government is mismanaging, and we can even have the full ability to leave the country (you can't do that in communist/fascist nations) and stop paying taxes to this government. The answer is yes, citizens do have the power.

Perhaps that's the real problem with America. Everyone intelligent enough to solve problems is too apathetic to do anything about them.
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Finally, a post with sense.
 
What information is so potentially damaging to national security and of such a nature that it must be kept on a traditional device such as a laptop or cell phone and unable to be stored or transmitted in any other way?

Are they looking for a file, a picture? a movie?
 
BallerX said:
What you are obligated to do by being a citizen. Refuse and accept what ever consequences come from it. Now what about that? What would they do if everyone refused? You hold the ultimate power here. It's time for the ants to murder the queen. This country has been living on borrowed time for a while now and the juice is running.
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they would call you a terrorist and launch ur arse to cuba for a meat sandwich.
 
I hate to say it, but, I think this is a "good" thing. Not good in the sense of right, but, good in the sense of now we can finally get some changes made. I can now push for blank laptops and remote access at my work because of this. I'm tired of hearing about some "three-letter-acronym" government agency loosing 150,000 confidential records on a laptop 3 times a week. Now, I have something to point to and say "See, we should be using blank laptops and have the executives VPN/RDC back into the corporate LAN to access their data. It should never leave the company, let alone the country."

I would encourage everyone here in a corporate/business IT function to use this in a positive way to enact meaningful change(s) in your own internal security policies. Yes, it sucks. But, silver lining is, we can use it.
 
I friend of a friend recently went to Germany. He had a laptop with him. Border security passed the laptop in a scanning device. Within 10 seconds ( and without booting the laptop) security was able to see every file on his pc... pretty messed up. The border agent said "so, you like shopping on Ebay" which was true. Pretty messed up that they can scan your laptop like that. What if you had some *pics* of your girlfriend on there or something...
 
Sparrow_69 said:
I friend of a friend recently went to Germany. He had a laptop with him. Border security passed the laptop in a scanning device. Within 10 seconds ( and without booting the laptop) security was able to see every file on his pc... pretty messed up. The border agent said "so, you like shopping on Ebay" which was true. Pretty messed up that they can scan your laptop like that. What if you had some *pics* of your girlfriend on there or something...
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i do not believe such technology exists.

show me evidence and i'll say otherwise

until then... that's retarded
 
I thought the same thing when I first heard it. My friend's is pretty tech savvy though, or so I thought... Anyone else ever hear of something similar? Maybe someone is exagerating a bit?
 
Sparrow_69 said:
Maybe someone is exagerating a bit?
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yeah, I don't know how you can read a hard drive powered off, let alone that fast.

My take: social engineering. Used to play games on people all the time like that. "Yeah, I'm in your PC now... man, you really need to clean up your desktop.." What person WOULDN'T that work on? Saying "So, you like eBay" doesn't mean he scanned the drive. If I had your laptop, put it in a "box" for 10 seconds, and came back with "So, you sure do like your pR0n", you'd prolly think I did scan it. :D
 
Total BS about scanning the hard drive, it would almost be impossible to read the magnetic signature on a hard drive (Magnetic strength decreases logarithmically from center) let alone have the precision to do it. He prolly was just scanning it for explosives and made a general remark... I mean cmon, if he had said "So you like looking at porn alot?" I'm sure more than half of us would have to agree :D
 
Sparrow_69 said:
I friend of a friend recently went to Germany. He had a laptop with him. Border security passed the laptop in a scanning device. Within 10 seconds ( and without booting the laptop) security was able to see every file on his pc... pretty messed up. The border agent said "so, you like shopping on Ebay" which was true. Pretty messed up that they can scan your laptop like that. What if you had some *pics* of your girlfriend on there or something...
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With tech like that, you can fill up your drive and never turn it on again and you can read your data anytime you want.
Data recovery companies would use this to recover lost data from a drive, right?
 
Sparrow_69 said:
I friend of a friend recently went to Germany. He had a laptop with him. Border security passed the laptop in a scanning device. Within 10 seconds ( and without booting the laptop) security was able to see every file on his pc... pretty messed up. The border agent said "so, you like shopping on Ebay" which was true. Pretty messed up that they can scan your laptop like that. What if you had some *pics* of your girlfriend on there or something...
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Tinfoil hats help. Also surround the hard drive in tin foil.
 
HOCP4ME said:
Perhaps that's the real problem with America. Everyone intelligent enough to solve problems is too apathetic to do anything about them.
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HOCP4ME, I think you missed the point. FTFA

U.S. federal agents have been given new powers to seize travelers' laptops and other electronic devices at the border and hold them for unspecified periods the Washington Post reported on Friday.
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Who gave the agents these powers? Was it an official from inside the department of homeland security? If it was, how can a department give itself the right to break the laws that the Judicial side has laid down?

Under recently disclosed Department of Homeland Security policies, such seizures may be carried out without suspicion of wrongdoing, the newspaper said, quoting policies issued on July 16 by two DHS agencies.
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Policies? Really? When did my government get the power to inact ILLEGAL policies? I would love to make a policy that says "On Friday's LaChupacabra can walk into any bank and take all their money." That would be sweet. And, according to this article, it looks like this is exactly what happened.

And, as far as intelligent people acting apathetic, you are aboslultaly correct. The language that these asshats are using is designed to make the brain leak out of anyone who has any mental abilities. Have you ever listened to someone who is trained to interact with a child? They use a couple of tricks to make the child think they are making decisions, when in fact they are not. Like giving options: Lets say I think it's time for child A to take a nap, I could say something like "It's naptime kiddo," but, if I know the child is going to react negatively to it, I would instead give it options "Would you like to take a nap now, or in 5 minutes?" The child doesn't understand that it doesn't have to take either and can still chose not to, but it's a technique that works amazingly well. Fox News is off the charts for using linguistic tricks like this, and George Bush gets worse and worse. They will repeat the same thing over and over again, as if by saying it many times over it becomes true. A perfect example of the brain melting questions these people use is "Why do you hate America?" For people who don't analyze conversation as it's happening can only think that these people hate America, because they weren't given an option in the sentence of them not hating it.

It's illegal, it's immoral, it's un-American and it's wrong. And, to anyone who doesn't think this way, "Why are you an asshat?"
 
Your opinion is divine and superior to everyone elses. Typical elitist. :p
 
Sparrow_69 said:
I friend of a friend recently went to Germany. He had a laptop with him. Border security passed the laptop in a scanning device. Within 10 seconds ( and without booting the laptop) security was able to see every file on his pc... pretty messed up. The border agent said "so, you like shopping on Ebay" which was true. Pretty messed up that they can scan your laptop like that. What if you had some *pics* of your girlfriend on there or something...
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That is if you are lucky to be checked like that. Most of the time they just let people through without checking anything and sometimes they are not even there. The immigration officer will check your documents for sure but the customs is not strict here.

There is no way that they can check your drive within 10 seconds and then know the contents on the spot. Even if they can get all the files in 10 seconds, they will need more time to evaluate the data to make a conclusion on your shopping habit.
 
You know, I'm betting that the US isn't the only country with this particular policy. It's just that WE are open enough to publish it. If you don't like it, nothing says you have to come here.

For you "I'll just encrypt" guys...if I was a US Customs agent, your shit would be the first I'd look at. "Encryted eh? So what do you have to hide bucko? Let's open this puppy up and take a look. OOPS sorry, really GOOD encrytion...guess we will have to send this one to NSA...don't call us, we'll call you when we are finished with it". :D:D

Would any of you people bitching about this care to try going thru Saudi Arabian Customs with a 1/5 of Jim Beam in your luggage? Sorry folks, but every country in the world has things that they look for when you enter their country. It doesn't matter if you are a citizen of that country or not.

Also, for you folks that have your knickers in a twist about this...google Millenium Bomber then STFU!
 
I've been to the US a few times and really enjoyed it. With things like this coming into place, I'd be much more reluctant to travel to the US on a holiday to spend some cash. I go on holiday for a rest, not to get stressed out about losing my iphone/ laptop/ other gadgets etc.
 
I don't get it. Terrorists seriously write their secrets down? The best place to hide something is inside of your head, I'm 99% sure RIAA MPAA helped introduce this crap.
 
HOCP4ME said:
Okay, to start with, everyone please realize that this only applies to people coming into the US from outside the US. The Constitution does not apply in that case because the person coming in is outside the US. I'm not saying it should be that way, but there is no way this could ever be extended to domestic flights because the Constitution very obviously prohibits that.

Yes, I agree that laptop seizure without cause is taking things a little too far. The good news is we only have to endure six more months of this. I think America will be okay. In the meantime, what's worse than this is the attitude that intelligent Americans have towards their country, if this forum is any reasonable sample. You think America is fascist? Maybe you should think again because in a fascist country, you would be arrested just for making that statement. These three pages of anti-government posts actually prove themselves incorrect, simply by existing! The United States is still one of the best countries in the world and one of the most free countries as well. It may not be the most free country, but it is close.

Also, the fact remains that we the people of the United States still have power over our government. Many people think the ability to vote means nothing, but in reality, it means everything! Lawmakers cannot do anything if they are not elected to office. Moreover, as others have said, we can always refuse to participate in any activies we believe the government is mismanaging, and we can even have the full ability to leave the country (you can't do that in communist/fascist nations) and stop paying taxes to this government. The answer is yes, citizens do have the power.

Perhaps that's the real problem with America. Everyone intelligent enough to solve problems is too apathetic to do anything about them.
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this is an excellent post. Becuase it is in a lot of ways correct. There are a few things i would disagree with but a lot is pretty much on.

You are 100% right that most of the problem with things that overstep the line is apathy. No one wants to make their voice be heard, this is understandable because so many have the ostrich syndrome. We see this a lot, someone does something but no one rallies with them, they pretend that person doesn't exist, even if they agree.

some of the places where i do disagree. There are elements of the government in recent years that have taken steps that were similar to ones taken by fascism in the past. You are right that to call the country fascist is presumptive. We are not. However we do see similarities that are understandably unnerving to some. You also hear comments from some political stages that are just an unnerving, so yes, they can't arrest you for gov't bashing, there are definitely some that would jump at the chance to if they were given grounds. The homegrown terrorism act of 2007 is a step in this direction. A defender may brush it off, however like many of the more recent american acts, wording is too vague for comfort. It is reading between the lines somewhat, but still, when dealing with something that can affect peoples lives and livelihoods i think it should most certainly be more concrete.

I was reading about living abroad a while back for reasons unrelated to my feelings on the state of the union. I caught an listing of best countries in the world to live in (or something to this affect, i'll try to post it if i can find it again) and america was indeed pretty high, however it DID lose ground on the privacy/freedom grounds over previous years. which means there are more than just tin foil hatters taking notice.

The political process and the concept that we still control it is also where i disagree with you. while it is true that if they are not voted in they can't do anything. Track records have shown repeatedly it's very difficult because of how easily it is swayed (the dems voted in a dem party to oust bush and leave Iraq, and they have gone along consistently since then is a good example). Add that to things such as the Diebold scandal, it makes the process very difficult to buy into.

as for backing out of mismanaged areas of government that is also difficult in the best case and impossible in others. I don't want to give the government my earned money because i don't think they are working in my interest, but if i don't pay my taxes they can come after me (which is VERY illegal since there is no law). This is true even though i never set foot in a public school, or used any federal programs.

Also, leaving is made very complicated. and when you leave you are still technically required to pay taxes.

so while i understand your sentiments, and i don't fully disagree with you. There are just some trends that i really don't feel comfortable with (look at A LOT of the acts or orders that have come across in the last decade). I could go on with other things that bother me, such as the economy, but that half of what the government is doing wrong isn't the focus of this thread.
 
LOL I swear I'm gonna make a tinfoil hat and a giant glaring foil cod piece.
 
LaChupacabra said:
.......They use a couple of tricks to make the child think they are making decisions, when in fact they are not. Like giving options: Lets say I think it's time for child A to take a nap, I could say something like "It's naptime kiddo," but, if I know the child is going to react negatively to it, I would instead give it options "Would you like to take a nap now, or in 5 minutes?" The child doesn't understand that it doesn't have to take either and can still chose not to, but it's a technique that works amazingly well. .....
A perfect example of the brain melting questions these people use is "Why do you hate America?" For people who don't analyze conversation as it's happening can only think that these people hate America, because they weren't given an option in the sentence of them not hating it.

It's illegal, it's immoral, it's un-American and it's wrong. And, to anyone who doesn't think this way, "Why are you an asshat?"
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Or a lawyer asking "when did you stop beating your wife?" when you're on the stand. Is there a correct answer for that without looking guilty?
 
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