Unusual SFF socket 478 mobo (no psu used + low profile)

strae · Dec 7, 2004

valve1138 said:
You could use the firewire or USB 2.0 ports for storage and still have GigE

Or you could use the already-present second IDE channel

I have what I think is the pinout - it seems to be (more or less) a JAE 50 connector, except the rows are reversed (pin 1<>2, pin 50<>49, etc)

I will post the pinout as soon as I put it in a readable (by anyone other than me) form

MATTRESS · Dec 7, 2004

that's fantastic. How close are you/we to getting these made? (or getting the parts you recommended?)

I just got my p4, ram, and zalman in the mail today. Jesus this zalman is F'ing HUGE!! I didn't expect it to be that big.

Luckily I remembered I had a dead socket 478 mobo, and i ripped the socket out. I plan on making an adapter like you did. this should be very very interesting!

I'm so excited to get this all up and running ... I just need something to put this mobo in

So far this is everything I got for it:
----------------------------------------------------------
wireless B mini PCI adapter
p4 northwood (can't remember the speed..)
256mb pc3200 ram
sager 90w power supply
---------

Later on I'll probably get a USB TV Tuner or soemthing for it... This is a fun little project!

This is also the first time I've ever used a p4. It's SO SMALL compared to an AMD AthlonXP lol... I was really surprised when it came.

strae · Dec 7, 2004

MATTRESS said:
that's fantastic. How close are you/we to getting these made? (or getting the parts you recommended?)

I just got my p4, ram, and zalman in the mail today. Jesus this zalman is F'ing HUGE!! I didn't expect it to be that big.

Luckily I remembered I had a dead socket 478 mobo, and i ripped the socket out. I plan on making an adapter like you did. this should be very very interesting!

I'm so excited to get this all up and running ... I just need something to put this mobo in

So far this is everything I got for it:
----------------------------------------------------------
wireless B mini PCI adapter
p4 northwood (can't remember the speed..)
256mb pc3200 ram
sager 90w power supply
---------

Later on I'll probably get a USB TV Tuner or soemthing for it... This is a fun little project!

This is also the first time I've ever used a p4. It's SO SMALL compared to an AMD AthlonXP lol... I was really surprised when it came.

The earlier P4, which has exactly the same chip in a different package, was the same size as an athlon or socket 7

As for the Zalman - it IS even scarier in person!

Being an obsessive modder - I have modified one so that the back of the case (when I get around to building that ) will fit - I did this by bending a bunch of fins and cutting some off, now my zalman no longer overhangs the printer and power ports. (pics - eventually)

Once I manage to test the interface - I am 1 day away from drawing it and 10 days from delivery once I do. When I get the boards, they will be 3 per board and I have to cut them with my trusty dremmel - packing them in an envelope and mailing them should be fast. I will order header pins when I order the boards, I expcet the boards will take longer anyway.

All this said - everyone interested in these should send me a private message right away and we need to arrange funding.

MATTRESS · Dec 7, 2004

1 more question. (I think it was you) You used spare pin headers to make the standard power switch plug, and others, etc... Where did you get the pin headers from? a dead mobo? How did you remove them?

There's a trick I know, I've had to replace a PCI slot with one from a different board ... If you have a gas stove, just hold the dead board, wth the back facing the flame, and when it gets hot enough, all you have to do is bang it, and the pieces should just fall out.

Is this something you did?

strae · Dec 7, 2004

MATTRESS said:
1 more question. (I think it was you) You used spare pin headers to make the standard power switch plug, and others, etc... Where did you get the pin headers from? a dead mobo? How did you remove them?

There's a trick I know, I've had to replace a PCI slot with one from a different board ... If you have a gas stove, just hold the dead board, wth the back facing the flame, and when it gets hot enough, all you have to do is bang it, and the pieces should just fall out.

Is this something you did?

No, but I WILL have to try that some time!

I had desoldered and removed a 40-pin header months ago - it was a royal pain - but for the pins I had some new headers and cut them up. Also - removing 10-pin headers is much easier and I have some of those around too (usb headers).

Remember to stay away from that grounded pin - I killed the HDD LED output on one of my boards by trying to use that.

I have succeeded in making headers for power, reset, power LED and HDD LED now - all fully functional, although standard case LED's run at about 80% brightness.

I will post pics of these too - eventually

- I am more concerned about that microIDE right now.

Now, on to my next phase - silent HDD.

Anyone know where I can get sheets of that thermal rubber they use on cpu heatsinks?
I am thinking that I will use it to attach an aluminum sandwich on the top/bottom of the drive - this should provide an acoustic barrier and still give great cooling.

Morely · Dec 8, 2004

strae said:
I have succeeded in making headers for power, reset, power LED and HDD LED now - all fully functional, although standard case LED's run at about 80% brightness.

This is a case where a jury-rigged lightpipe makes perfect sense. I may just use a single chunk of 1/4-inch Plexiglas and let the lights blend together; that should make for a cool effect behind the smoked-plexi face of the case I plan to use.

starhawk · Dec 8, 2004

Morely said:
This is a case where a jury-rigged lightpipe makes perfect sense. I may just use a single chunk of 1/4-inch Plexiglas and let the lights blend together; that should make for a cool effect behind the smoked-plexi face of the case I plan to use.

POST PICS when you do it!

Morely · Dec 9, 2004

CPU arrived (Celery 1.8 GHz), and my machinist is working on making the Vantech HSF fit without shorting the capacitors together (and milling off the part of the Northbridge HSF that interferes with the second DIMM). Part of the end of the bottom plate of the HSF has to be milled down to clear the capacitors that are between the CPU socket and the power regulator coils.

The hole pattern for the heat sink is (center to center) 1.774 by 2.562 inches, in case anyone's thinking of doing their own drill-and-tap mounting system on a rectangular HSF. I didn't get the measurements for the Northbridge mouting holes, sorry.

The case I'm looking at is here. I haven't got my hands on one yet to make sure the light-pipe idea is going to work, but it seems like it should.

MATTRESS · Dec 9, 2004

wow that place has a lot of good deals. I might go bankrupt looking at this site

!! (i found this one by testing!

)

and cheap shipping, $4.99 on all orders

Product Code Quantity Description Unit Price Ext. Price
CAS-NLXCAS 1 NEW NLX Case with 145 Watt Power Supply $13.00 $13.00
SOF-PCA105 1 Symantec PC Anywhere 10.5 FREE TODAY $0.00 $0.00
ACC-003042 1 Thermaltake Stylish Mouse Pad / Rubber - Black/Red $2.63 $2.63
. Subtotal: $15.63
NV Tax (7.25%): $0.00
Shipping and Handling: $4.99
Discounts: $20.00
Grand Total: $0.62

man this is pretty sweet. you could place an order for the case mentioned in the above post, fill it to $20, and get it free (like i did )!

and then get that cruisepad thing, the case and battery free too ... probably have to split it up and fill em in in seperate orders. I wonder if that cruise pad is any good, anyone know anything about them?

starhawk · Dec 9, 2004

Morely said:
CPU arrived (Celery 1.8 GHz), <snip>QUOTE]

hey... that's the same cpu i got! only yours is probably not tualatin core... (i think mine is... it's certainly old enough )

Morely · Dec 9, 2004

Mattress, thanks for the coupon code, I've ordered my case.

Here's what my CPU heat sink looks like after milling, drilling, and tapping:

Morely · Dec 10, 2004

strae, thanks for the blind keystrokes (although I'm still not sure that that's what got me into CMOS). (EDIT: Yes, that's what did it. BTW, don't fiddle with the CPU clock speed unless you really want to reset CMOS.

)

The Northbridge and CPU HSFs are in place, held down with 4-40 screws and rubber o-rings to allow for some tension without excessive pressure on the mobo; Arctic Silver used on both, of course. I had to mill off part of the Northbridge HSF to clear the second DIMM, and clipped part of the plastic frame off the fan for that, too.

Right now, the board is out on the bench, running Knoppix without a mouse (note to self: Where in Sheol are all the spare USB mice?), and it ain't pretty, but it's cool, fast, and quiet.

Here's a small pic (link to the huge version after this):

Full Size Pic 1536 x 2048

Oh, yes, that is 1 gig of RAM in there - whatever 400 MHZ equates to in DDR speeds (3200?). Apparently shared RAM is used for video, so I allocated 64 megs. Why not?

Last update tonight: I am posting this from my Bare Naked Lady motherboard, running Knoppix, and everything is on the "internal" power supply. No temperature issues, no noise to speak of, and I just realized I'll be able to use the interal speaker header to put a headphone jack on the front of the case when it arrives. I am one happy hardware hacker! :

MATTRESS · Dec 10, 2004

that's a pretty sweet idea. Where's the headers for the headphone jack located? also be aware that strae and I were both charged full amounts on our orders from CSO ... the discounts did not reflect what was authorized...

I contacted my bank, and I have to wait for the transactions to post (monday) in order to file a claim, and collect the difference. Also, I contacted the billing department.

We'll see what happens from here.

Morely · Dec 10, 2004

MATTRESS said:
that's a pretty sweet idea. Where's the headers for the headphone jack located?

See the red wires at the bottom of the photo? That's for a single squeaker, off-camera to the left. The white header where it's plugged in has pins for "L GG R" which are left, two grounds, and right speakers - or headphones, when I get done.

strae · Dec 11, 2004

MATTRESS said:
also be aware that strae and I were both charged full amounts on our orders from CSO ... the discounts did not reflect what was authorized...

I contacted my bank, and I have to wait for the transactions to post (monday) in order to file a claim, and collect the difference. Also, I contacted the billing department.

We'll see what happens from here.

Of note to all - I would steer clear of CSO in the future. Their answer to processing a $22 order for $2 after discounts was simply to put the order for the full amount. They seem to have done this repeatedly with several people. Since I clicked on "I AGREE" to a purchase of $2, charging my credit card $22 is FRAUD. However, they claim I have committed fraud! All I did was use THEIR coupon.

Anyway - this is not the place - I simply feel that CSO more or less received free advertising on this forum and they received it bacause of a coupon they dishonored and compounded the matter by simply stealing the money back.

Guess how much business I will give them in the future?

We have strae'd off topic here

Morely · Dec 11, 2004

Has anyone gotten the onboard LAN port working? Under Win2K, the Realtek driver installs but reports "device can't start" and frankly, I don't know how to fix that. I'm using a D-Link USB Ethernet adapter right now.

Second EDIT: The right driver for the LAN port is the SiS 900 driver, found here . It's working now.

The other odd issue is the extra USB header - I have tried two different cables with USB sockets on them, and neither one seems to work properly with that header. Is the pinout non-standard?

Otherwise things are coming along nicely. I'm installing Win2K on an old-slow Seagate 20 gig drive, with a 48x Liteon CD-ROM. Everything except LAN works, and the above-mentioned oddity with the extra USB ports. When I have it all down pat, I'll ghost it to a 10-gig partition on an 80 gig drive (and find one of my 80-pin IDE cables), and slip my DVD-RW in there instead of the CD-ROM.

First EDIT: Ouch. Modem driver causes BSOD, too. I don't need the modem, but that's annoying.

strae · Dec 12, 2004

Morely said:
Has anyone gotten the onboard LAN port working? Under Win2K, the Realtek driver installs but reports "device can't start" and frankly, I don't know how to fix that. I'm using a D-Link USB Ethernet adapter right now.

Second EDIT: The right driver for the LAN port is the SiS 900 driver, found here . It's working now.

The other odd issue is the extra USB header - I have tried two different cables with USB sockets on them, and neither one seems to work properly with that header. Is the pinout non-standard?

Otherwise things are coming along nicely. I'm installing Win2K on an old-slow Seagate 20 gig drive, with a 48x Liteon CD-ROM. Everything except LAN works, and the above-mentioned oddity with the extra USB ports. When I have it all down pat, I'll ghost it to a 10-gig partition on an 80 gig drive (and find one of my 80-pin IDE cables), and slip my DVD-RW in there instead of the CD-ROM.

First EDIT: Ouch. Modem driver causes BSOD, too. I don't need the modem, but that's annoying.

Are the headers round or ribbon cable? - I have seen USB 2.0 headers that wont recognize a USB 1.x port (flat ribbon cable) - verify you have a 2.0 port.

My LAN worked perfectly under windows xp pro.

Ice Czar · Dec 12, 2004

SJetski71 said:
Might want to check with ice czar in the psu forums before hooking up your ide drives to a seperate psu. If i'm not mistaken i believe he's mentioned timing issues upon startup or shut down...and his ide drives frying because of it.

not frying, but corruption from west hell, if they arent synchd with the main supply
a relay is generally the best solution, though I solved it with a Hardwired 2nd PSU

was especially pronounced in my case since it was a RAID 5 array, and there was the write hole involved, but can impact any HDDs cache given enough time

Morely · Dec 12, 2004

strae said:
Are the headers round or ribbon cable? - I have seen USB 2.0 headers that wont recognize a USB 1.x port (flat ribbon cable) - verify you have a 2.0 port.

Round. One of them is salvaged from my late SFF box, the other is a back-panel extender from a gigabyte mobo. If I am not mistaken, I hav yet another one on the way from CSO, so I'll test that, too.

My LAN worked perfectly under windows xp pro.

Once I figured out that it's an SiS 900, and not a Realtek, it was simple to get the right drivers. Being lazy (Read: I didn't want to go find my bifocals), I booted into Knoppix and checked out the hardware it detected, rather than trying to read the silkscreens on the chips.

Morely · Dec 13, 2004

strae said:
Of note to all - I would steer clear of CSO in the future.

Yep. they chaged my credit card $22.60 but I have an email from them showing that I only authorized $5.60

This is going to cost them $35 for the chargeback. I don't know if credit card fraud will be pressed, but I will be filing a formal complaint.

Nice case, though.

valve1138 · Dec 13, 2004

Morely said:
Yep. they chaged my credit card $22.60 but I have an email from them showing that I only authorized $5.60

This is going to cost them $35 for the chargeback. I don't know if credit card fraud will be pressed, but I will be filing a formal complaint.

Nice case, though.

thats a shame, I used to order stuff pre reorganization and never had a problem.

Ice Czar · Dec 13, 2004

http://www.resellerratings.com/seller1782.html
Computer Surplus Outlet
Six-Month Rating: 1.79
Lifetime Rating: 3.52

doesnt get much worse than that

Morely · Dec 13, 2004

Ice Czar said:
http://www.resellerratings.com/seller1782.html
Computer Surplus Outlet
Six-Month Rating: 1.79
Lifetime Rating: 3.52

doesnt get much worse than that

Oh, well. At least this was a relatively cheap lesson. I'm still paying for a $5000 lesson from Wells Fargo (which I won't go into here).

Still waiting to see if CSO will actually ship what they've charged me for. I just snagged some plastic "cable tunnels" from $DAY_JOB and plan to make something to cover the side of the case after hooking up the USB and Firewire on this mobo. These were from some SFF Dell desktops, basicly it's just a rectangular tube with on side completely open (and there are attaching clamps on that side) and vents molded in on the opposite side. A little black spray paint and it will look like it was made for this (I hope).

starhawk · Dec 13, 2004

Morely said:
I'm still paying for a $5000 lesson from Wells Fargo (which I won't go into here).

owch... that HAD to hurt.

Morely · Dec 21, 2004

CSO shipped my stuff late Friday (or possibly early Saturday) and it's supposed to arrive on Wednesday. That will give me enough time to have the minor changes to the case machined before the long weekend.

What's the word on the secondary IDE channel? I don't seem to be able to post over at linux-hacker.net for some reason.

strae · Dec 21, 2004

Morely said:
CSO shipped my stuff late Friday (or possibly early Saturday) and it's supposed to arrive on Wednesday. That will give me enough time to have the minor changes to the case machined before the long weekend.

What's the word on the secondary IDE channel? I don't seem to be able to post over at linux-hacker.net for some reason.

I was hoping someone could clarify those last 6 lines for me.

Can anyone tell me anything about the IDE40 and JAE50 connections?
IDE 40 JAE50
21 DRQ 22 DMARQ
29 DACK 28 /DMACK
31 IRQ 29 INTRQ
37 CS1P_L 35 /CS1FX
38 DS3P_L 36 /CS3FX
39 DHACT_L cant even guess

What we have here are the IDE 40 pins on the left that have no excat match on the JAE50 connector, on the right, we have my best-guess connections.

I have no clue what the purpose of at least 2 of these are, and only a vague clue about 2 others.

Then I have to ask, why is there a '/' in front of some lines?

Someone? Anyone?

Morely · Dec 21, 2004

strae said:
Can anyone tell me anything about the IDE40 and JAE50 connections?
IDE 40 JAE50
21 DRQ 22 DMARQ
29 DACK 28 /DMACK
31 IRQ 29 INTRQ
37 CS1P_L 35 /CS1FX
38 DS3P_L 36 /CS3FX
39 DHACT_L cant even guess

Then I have to ask, why is there a '/' in front of some lines?

Someone? Anyone?

The "/" means Active Low (or ACT_L in IDE40 terms, like pin 39).

See the Mac layout for the IDE 40 bus here.

A Toshiba PDF file here gives the definitions of the JAE 50 signals in plain English. /DMACK is "DMA Acknowledge" for example.

tom61 · Dec 21, 2004

strae said:
I was hoping someone could clarify those last 6 lines for me.

Can anyone tell me anything about the IDE40 and JAE50 connections?
IDE 40 JAE50
21 DRQ 22 DMARQ
29 DACK 28 /DMACK
31 IRQ 29 INTRQ
37 CS1P_L 35 /CS1FX
38 DS3P_L 36 /CS3FX
39 DHACT_L cant even guess

What we have here are the IDE 40 pins on the left that have no excat match on the JAE50 connector, on the right, we have my best-guess connections.

I have no clue what the purpose of at least 2 of these are, and only a vague clue about 2 others.

Then I have to ask, why is there a '/' in front of some lines?

Someone? Anyone?

JAE50 pinout may have nothing to do with this, IDC50 would make more sense in my opinion. The last 40 pins of IDC/IDE50 line up with standard IDE, and is most likely the connector on the board (unless I miss someone testing the pinout, and it isn't the case)

Here's the IDC50 pinout:
1 Audio A-GND 2

3 Audio A-GND 4

5 ? +5V 6

7 +5V +5V 8

9 +5V +5V 10

11 /RST GND 12

13 D7 D8 14

15 D6 D9 16

17 D5 D10 18

19 D4 D11 20

21 D3 D12 22

23 D2 D13 24

25 D1 D14 26

27 D0 D15 28

29 GND N/C 30

31 N/C GND 32

33 /IOW GND 34

35 /IOR GND 36

37 RDY ALE 38

39 N/C GND 40

41 IRQR /IOCS 42

43 DA1 N/C 44

45 DA0 DA2 46

47 CS0 CS1 48

49 /ACT GND 50

strae · Dec 21, 2004

tom61 said:
JAE50 pinout may have nothing to do with this, IDC50 would make more sense in my opinion. The last 40 pins of IDC/IDE50 line up with standard IDE, and is most likely the connector on the board (unless I miss someone testing the pinout, and it isn't the case)

I tested the pinout, it's jae50 with row 1 and row 2 switched - at least all the ground and +5 lines match up that way which is very different from ide40 or ide50

Morely · Dec 22, 2004

The frame is down in the machine shop having the first pass of machine work done right now. Here are some good pics. BTW, I have found an alternate source of this case (other than CSO) if anyone is still looking.

Here's a front shot of the case; the laptop next to it a Dell Precision M50, for size comparison.

Full size pic
That's an IR window on the front left, and the "light" closest to the big silver power button is actually a recessed reset button.

Here's the inside, looking down from above. The front of the case is at the bottom of the picture:

The hard drive can mount above the speaker, to the left of the center divider, or on a removable carrier which slides out from under the DVD drive mounting frame, as seen here:

And here's the first pass for machining - all of the parts marked with blue will need to be removed so I can fit the mobo inside and determine where the mounting holes go, and what part of the back panel needs removing so the serial port can look outside. The mobo itself is sitting on the case shell, behind the frame, and the same Dell laptop is off to the right:

More later, when I get the frame back and can mark it for the second set of cuts.

FLECOM · Dec 23, 2004

would using that 3M heatsink tape be a horribly bad idea for attaching a heatsink to the P4?

k1114 · Dec 23, 2004

FLECOM said:
would using that 3M heatsink tape be a horribly bad idea for attaching a heatsink to the P4?

YES!

FLECOM · Dec 23, 2004

o well, guess im sticking to zip-ties then lol

MATTRESS · Dec 23, 2004

does it have an ir receiver to go behind the ir window?

cool pics man, thanks. I can't wait to get mine, my shipping was delayed a few days, so i won't get mine until the 28th.

valve1138 · Dec 23, 2004

FLECOM said:
o well, guess im sticking to zip-ties then lol

Zalman 7000's bolt right on perfectly

Morely · Dec 23, 2004

And no, it doesn't include the IR receiver.

Here's the side view with the center rail cut away to clear the mobo, and the side rail notched to clear the USB, Firewire, and NIC connections:

That's a really tight fit for the power and IDE cables; I had to remove the fan from my Vantech HSF unit and the IDE cable from the socket, tilt the mobo to slip the drive power connector under the center rail, then rotate it flat. Getting the IDE cable on after that was no picnic, either. Getting the fan back on the Vantech was a piece of cake, for which I am truly grateful.

The opening where the PSU used to be has to be notched to clear the serial port:

It fits - just! Not fastened down yet. And yes, that's the exhaust fan from a IDEQ SFF case in the upper left corner:

Side view of the board stuffed into the case. You can see my jury-rigged power and HDD LEDs off to the right. I've abandoned the light-pipe idea for now because I'm out of 1/4-inch plexiglas scraps. However, when I come up with some, there's a little door at the bottom front of the case where the front-panel USB and audio jacks are meant to be, and I think it will look cool with the light-pipe there instead.

Top view of the stuffed case:

Not shown yet: Drives are in place, there are two USB ports on the back panel (which still don't work right, and I don't understand that), front panel and reset switch are mounted. I need to extend the wires on the power switch or replace it with one that has longer wires, so the front panel will be coming off again later. Right now, I'm ripping a DVD.

The top cover has not yet been machined to clear the side ports, either - that can wait until next week. I'll be making a rear panel from 0.0625" acrylic sheet and attaching that. Now I've got this nifty blue electroluminescent panel that came out of the IDEQ, I wonder where I can use that...

MATTRESS · Dec 23, 2004

did you do the machining work yourself? if so, what tool, or how'd you do it?..
also, would you know where would you go to get it done,. and how much would it cost for a pro to do it?

would zip ties work to hold down a HSF that wasn't meant for it? how much pressure would you use? I got a zalman 7000 flower which is a monstrosity, and it wouldn't fit in that case (i got that same case too, waiting for it to come in the mail!)

thanks fo the info

BTW-
what do you guys plan on using your chaintech IMO-Desk mobo for? I'm using mine as a htpcish computer for my bedroom

Morely · Dec 23, 2004

MATTRESS said:
did you do the machining work yourself? if so, what tool, or how'd you do it?..

I didn't; at $DAY_JOB we have a 30,000 square foot machine shop, and the guys owe me about a million favors. However, this was all done (so far) with a disk grinder, a Dremel, and a hand drill.

also, would you know where would you go to get it done,. and how much would it cost for a pro to do it?

Not a clue as to the cost, sorry.

would zip ties work to hold down a HSF that wasn't meant for it? how much pressure would you use?

Not advisable. Get a Vantech, and find a local hotrod shop; they can machine anything, if they're any good. Copper is soft and the milling is very easy (but be very gentle with the hold-down screws so you don't strip out the threads).

what do you guys plan on using your chaintech IMO-Desk mobo for? I'm using mine as a htpcish computer for my bedroom

With a gig of RAM, it rips a full DVD in about 90 minutes (vs. up to 6 hours on my desktop machine). Plays DVDs like a champ (and by mounting the ISO file in Nero Image Drive, I don't even need to use a "real" DVD). And eventually, I'll add a USB 2.0 TV tuner - instant PVR.

Frosty_axe · Dec 24, 2004

MATTRESS said:
did you do the machining work yourself? if so, what tool, or how'd you do it?..
also, would you know where would you go to get it done,. and how much would it cost for a pro to do it?

would zip ties work to hold down a HSF that wasn't meant for it? how much pressure would you use? I got a zalman 7000 flower which is a monstrosity, and it wouldn't fit in that case (i got that same case too, waiting for it to come in the mail!)

Grab a switftech mx-462. To make it fit all you have to do is slice a half inch down the side adn drill 2 new mounting holes. You dont even need to tap them, just used the included springs and mount like normal.

Morely · Dec 27, 2004

The side openings on the case have been machined and the cover installed (back panel still isn't there, but that's not obvious from these shots).

Here's the side ports:

And the front, with a nice drive cover from the dead iDeq (donor of many parts to this project):

And it's fast, quiet, and cool.

Unusual SFF socket 478 mobo (no psu used + low profile)

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Modder(ator) & [H]ardest Folder Evar

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Modder(ator) & [H]ardest Folder Evar

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