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Some of you may have read the troll thread I had against spytech, which involved in $2330 chargebacks/dispute. Now things have been finalized and I thought I'd give an update.
Here is the original troll thread: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1813484&highlight=
To be honest, I am not even mad at the buyer anymore. I am more of, well, just speechless about Paypal.
I started using PP since 2005, and this is the first time I have to deal with a dispute, either as a seller or buyer.
The original transaction was on 2.17 for 4x 290x paid in 2 separate payments ($1330 in Paypal and $1000 in Amazon Payment, both with Amex CC) and on 3.31, he opened a Paypal dispute claiming I sent him defective cards.
In short, I lost the Paypal dispute and the appeal but won the Amazon Payment AMEX chargeback.
FYI, in case he opens up an alias, you may wanna know: (I don't feel it is appropriate to disclose his full name & address in public)
his name is J. Ozoria, lives in Sunnyside NY, PP & Amz pmt email: spynyc at gmail
--------------------- For the Paypal dispute---------------------
I gave PP all the conversations between me and the buyer in form of screen shots with main focus on the fact the buyer modified cards with custom BIOS on the first day of delivery that could have damaged the cards by performing crypto mining.
One PP rep told me if I could prove this, I'd certainly win. BUT, guess what? Later on, PP told me they don't take screen shots as proof, or pretty much anything is not documented within their own system, which is just pretty much ebay, because it is "editable"..... Can you believe this? Yea, they literally told me anything that is digitally editable is not a valid source of proof.
So things like PMs, emails, text won't work, although they can be used in court.
I even gave them my [H] account to let them verify those conversations, and still got a big NO.
Note: I went through the first ruling, and 3 more appeals. I was able to get the case reopened 3 times w/ more evidence but all got closed again very quick.
---------------------After Paypal's ruling, and item returns (this is the nastiest part)---------------------
Immediately after the PP's ruling, which asked the buyer to return the cards and I pay the $1330, the buyer immediately filed a $1000 chargeback on Amazon Payment through AMEX.
The buyer also did another $1330 chargeback for the same Paypal transaction even after he had won it and got that money back. But Paypal took it off within a day. I am not sure if he was being greedy or did it by mistake and withdrawn it himself.
Before the return package arrived, I rerouted it to my local UPS store.
I video recorded the whole thing while the package was opened by the UPS staff.
2 out 4 cards were found in the package. (The video was continuous without any cut started from the moment UPS got ready to open the package to the moment I left there)
Guess what? 1 card had physical damage on the PCB exposing the copper underneath, and the other one looked fine from outside but later on turned out the it won't turn on at all, not even the fan.
UPS signed a sworn affidavit to describe the contents and damages, at the scene, and the video also shows the document being signed.
So I called Paypal and told them the items were damaged.
PP told me to file a police report. I did try but the police won't do it because they say it is a civil matter and only gave me an incidence report rather than an actual police report.
I also tried to consult with different sources but mostly just told me to sue the buyer.
So Paypal won't take the incidence report and said they MUST have an actual police report, which can't be acquired.
So Paypal won't do a damn thing about it until I somehow get a police report despite the fact I had:
1: Video showing the package was opened at UPS store by their staff.
2: Sworn affidavit signed by UPS confirming the contents and the damages, which can be clearly seen from the video.
3: Pics of the cards prior they were shipped to the buyer showing the damage was not there. And the pictures were taken on the same day of shipment and have the date stamp on them.
4: A police incidence report
Basically this is all about the PP side. Was there anything that I could have done but I did not? There is just no way out!
-------------------------AMEX chargeback through Amazon Payment---------------------
As for the $1000 Amazon Payment chargeback, I won. I basically gave them the same documents that I gave to PP, minus the police incidence report, video, and UPS affidavit because of the timeline of this whole thing. (I only got 2 cards back of course but 1 is not working at all, the other one has physical damage.)
I really did not expect much to win this because I had the impression chargebacks are much harder to dealer with, even more so for AMEX. (I have a feeling that the buyer is a repeated offender)
I did not do much it except giving Amazon the documents that I had already prepared for the PP dispute.
Amazon Pmt did not give me any updates how they fought the chargebacks or anything in that nature.
It could be that they really tried hard or simply forwarded the evidences I submitted to AMEX, I just can't know for sure.
And I am not even very sure if the buyer withdrawn chargeback himself or AMEX actually ruled in my favor.
Anyway, I am glad I won this regardless.
--------------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- ---------------------
As a seller, what I learned about Paypal from this:
1: Luck plays a crucial role in case of a dispute.
2: They may not read your evidences at all, at least most of them, especially when there are a lot of words. They may or may not, depending in their mood, take anything like screenshots, pictures, videos or text as proof. Basically anything, using PP's words "editable", is not a valid source of evidence. Even you give means to authenticate your evidences, they won't give the effort doing so, for example I offered them my [H] account to verify the PMs I submitted, and offered to have those PMs sent directly from admin of [H], but they don't care.
4: Once their first ruling is made, it is nearly impossible to reverse the decision except you have new, and absolutely indisputable evidences, like a physically signed agreement.
5: Their "Seller Protection" does not protect a seller for anything but unauthorized charges (I don't think it will be a easy one for a seller even this is the case), and "help" the seller to claim the items back. But asking for the buyer to submit a tracking number is as far as they go, and if the buyer returns a box of rock, there is nothing they will do to help the seller until a police report is provided, which is very hard to get as most of Paypal matters come down to a "civil matter", as the police I called told me. (video and affidavits don't work, at least in my case)
---------------------PS ---------------------
I appreciate all the feedbacks either in this thread or the original one, and I took many of your advices.
I did not open this thread to express my anger or trying to recover my loss somehow simply because I am numb already about this whole thing, which took nearly 4 months.
My only intention was to remind you all about the risks of taking Paypal because I really hate to see honest people got screwed over things like this.
I have gathered all the evidences that could possibly be got, but none of that mattered to Paypal, until I sue!!
For you have been doing it for years without any incidence (I did too!), please take great caution!
Here is the original troll thread: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1813484&highlight=
To be honest, I am not even mad at the buyer anymore. I am more of, well, just speechless about Paypal.
I started using PP since 2005, and this is the first time I have to deal with a dispute, either as a seller or buyer.
The original transaction was on 2.17 for 4x 290x paid in 2 separate payments ($1330 in Paypal and $1000 in Amazon Payment, both with Amex CC) and on 3.31, he opened a Paypal dispute claiming I sent him defective cards.
In short, I lost the Paypal dispute and the appeal but won the Amazon Payment AMEX chargeback.
FYI, in case he opens up an alias, you may wanna know: (I don't feel it is appropriate to disclose his full name & address in public)
his name is J. Ozoria, lives in Sunnyside NY, PP & Amz pmt email: spynyc at gmail
--------------------- For the Paypal dispute---------------------
I gave PP all the conversations between me and the buyer in form of screen shots with main focus on the fact the buyer modified cards with custom BIOS on the first day of delivery that could have damaged the cards by performing crypto mining.
One PP rep told me if I could prove this, I'd certainly win. BUT, guess what? Later on, PP told me they don't take screen shots as proof, or pretty much anything is not documented within their own system, which is just pretty much ebay, because it is "editable"..... Can you believe this? Yea, they literally told me anything that is digitally editable is not a valid source of proof.
So things like PMs, emails, text won't work, although they can be used in court.
I even gave them my [H] account to let them verify those conversations, and still got a big NO.
Note: I went through the first ruling, and 3 more appeals. I was able to get the case reopened 3 times w/ more evidence but all got closed again very quick.
---------------------After Paypal's ruling, and item returns (this is the nastiest part)---------------------
Immediately after the PP's ruling, which asked the buyer to return the cards and I pay the $1330, the buyer immediately filed a $1000 chargeback on Amazon Payment through AMEX.
The buyer also did another $1330 chargeback for the same Paypal transaction even after he had won it and got that money back. But Paypal took it off within a day. I am not sure if he was being greedy or did it by mistake and withdrawn it himself.
Before the return package arrived, I rerouted it to my local UPS store.
I video recorded the whole thing while the package was opened by the UPS staff.
2 out 4 cards were found in the package. (The video was continuous without any cut started from the moment UPS got ready to open the package to the moment I left there)
Guess what? 1 card had physical damage on the PCB exposing the copper underneath, and the other one looked fine from outside but later on turned out the it won't turn on at all, not even the fan.
UPS signed a sworn affidavit to describe the contents and damages, at the scene, and the video also shows the document being signed.
So I called Paypal and told them the items were damaged.
PP told me to file a police report. I did try but the police won't do it because they say it is a civil matter and only gave me an incidence report rather than an actual police report.
I also tried to consult with different sources but mostly just told me to sue the buyer.
So Paypal won't take the incidence report and said they MUST have an actual police report, which can't be acquired.
So Paypal won't do a damn thing about it until I somehow get a police report despite the fact I had:
1: Video showing the package was opened at UPS store by their staff.
2: Sworn affidavit signed by UPS confirming the contents and the damages, which can be clearly seen from the video.
3: Pics of the cards prior they were shipped to the buyer showing the damage was not there. And the pictures were taken on the same day of shipment and have the date stamp on them.
4: A police incidence report
Basically this is all about the PP side. Was there anything that I could have done but I did not? There is just no way out!
-------------------------AMEX chargeback through Amazon Payment---------------------
As for the $1000 Amazon Payment chargeback, I won. I basically gave them the same documents that I gave to PP, minus the police incidence report, video, and UPS affidavit because of the timeline of this whole thing. (I only got 2 cards back of course but 1 is not working at all, the other one has physical damage.)
I really did not expect much to win this because I had the impression chargebacks are much harder to dealer with, even more so for AMEX. (I have a feeling that the buyer is a repeated offender)
I did not do much it except giving Amazon the documents that I had already prepared for the PP dispute.
Amazon Pmt did not give me any updates how they fought the chargebacks or anything in that nature.
It could be that they really tried hard or simply forwarded the evidences I submitted to AMEX, I just can't know for sure.
And I am not even very sure if the buyer withdrawn chargeback himself or AMEX actually ruled in my favor.
Anyway, I am glad I won this regardless.
--------------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- ---------------------
As a seller, what I learned about Paypal from this:
1: Luck plays a crucial role in case of a dispute.
2: They may not read your evidences at all, at least most of them, especially when there are a lot of words. They may or may not, depending in their mood, take anything like screenshots, pictures, videos or text as proof. Basically anything, using PP's words "editable", is not a valid source of evidence. Even you give means to authenticate your evidences, they won't give the effort doing so, for example I offered them my [H] account to verify the PMs I submitted, and offered to have those PMs sent directly from admin of [H], but they don't care.
4: Once their first ruling is made, it is nearly impossible to reverse the decision except you have new, and absolutely indisputable evidences, like a physically signed agreement.
5: Their "Seller Protection" does not protect a seller for anything but unauthorized charges (I don't think it will be a easy one for a seller even this is the case), and "help" the seller to claim the items back. But asking for the buyer to submit a tracking number is as far as they go, and if the buyer returns a box of rock, there is nothing they will do to help the seller until a police report is provided, which is very hard to get as most of Paypal matters come down to a "civil matter", as the police I called told me. (video and affidavits don't work, at least in my case)
---------------------PS ---------------------
I appreciate all the feedbacks either in this thread or the original one, and I took many of your advices.
I did not open this thread to express my anger or trying to recover my loss somehow simply because I am numb already about this whole thing, which took nearly 4 months.
My only intention was to remind you all about the risks of taking Paypal because I really hate to see honest people got screwed over things like this.
I have gathered all the evidences that could possibly be got, but none of that mattered to Paypal, until I sue!!
For you have been doing it for years without any incidence (I did too!), please take great caution!
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