Upgrading my Loop

R

Russ

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Apr 14, 2005
Messages
1,875
So I haven't been around here much in over a year, mostly cause i finished my comp then. :p I'm getting the itch to upgrade it though, so I figured I'd come back to you guys and see what you could suggest.

I WCed it back it the day (ok, like fall '05), and that was the first time I've WCed my comp. Gone through a lot since then (including some unfortunate leaks), and I want to clean it up. You can see my setup in my sig, but I'll grab some links for those of you that don't recognize the parts.

Storm
http://www.swiftnets.com/products/Storm.asp

MCW55
http://www.swiftnets.com/store/product_details.asp?ProdID=337

MCP655
http://www.swiftnets.com/store/product_details.asp?ProdID=144

MCR220
http://www.swiftnets.com/store/product_details.asp?ProdID=390

Masterkleer 7/16" ID (I think that's my ID, :p)
http://www.jab-tech.com/Masterkleer-Tubing-7-16-ID-5-8-OD-pr-3079.html

Also some generic single 5.25" bay reservoir, definitely need to replace this crap. I bought it off some not-so-popular site and it tended to leak out the ports until I went to some extreme measures to force it closed. Generic plastic barbs as well, I sorta stripped some of them in various places, I'll be replacing those too.

Basically what I want to do is redo the tubing, maybe get a new CPU block, and GPU block that's full cover (getting tired of ramsinks). Also looking to WC the NB, because the zalman passive cooler I have on it is just not cutting it for my OCing, gets way too hot w/o requiring an extra fan.

I'm also going to be replacing all my fans. I suppose Yate Loons are the best in quiet performance these days? I want to keep it as quiet as possible while also as cool as possible. Money is secondary to these concerns.

Gonna replace the Res too. It'll be a single bay thing, unless it's got like a forward mounted hole, cause I only have 2 5.25" slots open, and I wouldn't be able to fill it up if it was a double. Looking for a nicely made clear one, so I can see the water flowing. A t-line is also an option, anyone use a t-line?

I'll be replacing my water additive too, after looking around the topics here, seems I made a mistake with what I was using (no, it wasn't some expensive coolant, I used mostly distilled water). Besides the distilled water, I'd like to have a biocide (I think that's the term) in there, and I want it to remain clear for as long as possible. What do you guys use?

Probably keeping the computer itself the same, except for the motherboard, that's fried. I'd like to go with a higher quality one this time (I went a little overboard in looking for bang for my buck there). This is what I had previously:
DFI nF4 Ultra-Infinity s939 (NF4-DAGF)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813136163R

What's out there in the way of mobo's? Don't really want/need to replace my 3000+ CPU, it works fine, and going to conroe would mean DDR2 as well, which I also don't need. Was thinking ASUS, cause I want stability, and they OC well enough, even compared to the DFI lanparties, imo.

I'm probably going to be sticking with my same case as well:
GIGABYTE 3D AURORA GZ-FSCA1-ANS Silver
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811233001

It's got 2x120mm fans in the back, although with my current rad I'm gonna have to switch it around and put the rad on the outside of the back, cause I can't fit my PSU or case door shut with the Rad on the inside back (so close on both, it's the lock that stops the door, and the little hump on top stops the PSU by like 1/2").

Feel free to comment on any of this.
 
I bought a DD bay and will never ever purchase any sort of acrylic bay res again. They're prone to leaks for a reason and Petra's won't even stock them for that very reason. I've had to completely reseal the whole thing and the barbs with silicone sealant from Home Depot just to ensure I wouldn't toast anything.

If you're looking to redo'ing your entire WC loop, then I'd recommend the following:

1) Create two loops, your old parts can easily make up 80% of your 2nd loop. You'll get a large performance boost. Your radiator and your pump will easily make the largest difference in terms of performance.

2) Get a GTX as this will future proof you when you'll make the jump to quad cores. If you do go two loops, the GTX on its own separate loop/pump will be a beast. However if you want to save a few bucks and get almost comparable performance, then a D-Tek FuZion will do fine.

3) Buy a DDC-2 w/ modded top (preferably Petra's) to power your GTX loop.

4) Buy two Swiftech micro res. These can both easily fit in one 5 1/4" bay. One will replace your old bay res. The other res will be for your new loop.

5) Use your MCR220 rad for your GPU/NB loop. However, for your CPU, I'd purchase a PA120.2 at the minimum.

6) Buy D-Tek fittings. I've used all chrome/metal fittings including DD (by far the worst), Swiftech's (surprisingly almost as bad), EK's (quality), D-Tek (absolute best). D-tek's fittings have tight QC and their threading has the best quality. You won't rip into your WC blocks/res's like you do with inferior swiftech and DD metal barbs. DD barbs were so bad that everything resulted in floating chunks of delrin as they ripped through.

7) As for the waterblock, get the EK full covers (if you can find them) or wait for a week (according to a phone convo I had with Gabe, Swiftech's CEO,) for the new Stealth full cover block from Swiftech.

8) Stick with distilled water, a few drops of PT nuke, a little bit of Pentosin as a lubricator for your pumps, and some D-Tek/Alphacool UV dye for some bling.

9) Purchase a MCW30 block for your NB as it's the least restrictive, easiest to mount, and can be used for future mobo's without compatibility worries.
 
Vlad_13 said:
Pics would be nice.so far looks good except that GPU block... i never like that one that you have on your link, put this one:

http://www.petrastechshop.com/swmcgpuwawg8.html

Also, was wondering which bay you used that craped out on you?

I have a DD single 5.25 and it does its job :)
Click to expand...

I believe it's this pos (it's utterly horrible):
http://www.dangerden.com/store/product.php?productid=51&cat=27&page=1

I didn't get it from DD though, but that fits the look.

Pics of my comp? Yea sure i'm uploading some now. A little blurry, but hopefully you can tell what it is.

Overall


Pic of the res stopping the psu:


What I did to the res barb:

Involving teflon tape on the inside, 2 worm clamps, and some gladwrap type stuff on the outside, at the least.

Front of the res:

Yes, the entire top of that DVD drive is stained pink from leaks. Still works though, lol.

NB + HS pic:

You can see that I had to bend a few of the HS pins to fit it under my 7800. Used some pliars to really get them under it.

And again, a whole shot:
 
The color of your water, mainly the blurriness reminds me of mine :p

What you used? I want to make sure i wont use the same liquid. Mainly thats the reason i will be replacing my tubing.
 
Ranker said:
2) Get a GTX as this will future proof you when you'll make the jump to quad cores. If you do go two loops, the GTX on its own separate loop/pump will be a beast. However if you want to save a few bucks and get almost comparable performance, then a D-Tek FuZion will do fine.

4) Buy two Swiftech micro res. These can both easily fit in one 5 1/4" bay. One will replace your old bay res. The other res will be for your new loop.

6) Buy D-Tek fittings.

7) As for the waterblock, get the EK full covers (if you can find them) or wait for a week (according to a phone convo I had with Gabe, Swiftech's CEO,) for the new Stealth full cover block from Swiftech.

8) Stick with distilled water, a few drops of PT nuke, a little bit of Pentosin as a lubricator for your pumps, and some D-Tek/Alphacool UV dye for some bling.

9) Purchase a MCW30 block for your NB as it's the least restrictive, easiest to mount, and can be used for future mobo's without compatibility worries.
Click to expand...

Thanks.

2) Is the fuzion you mention also compatible with quad cores?

4) That micro res looks like a good buy.

6) Ah, yea i totally agree with that rant. So buy these?

7) Yea, I suppose I can wait a week and get that block. Definitely going full cover, can't stand ramsinks anymore, and they're way too hot.

8)So.. this and this? (Yes I want blue.)

9) Alright, yea I was leaning towards the MCW30 myself.

About tubing. What do you suggest? Getting Masterkleer again for $0.49/foot is really tempting. :p Tygon 2075 is the king of it all though, right? Can only find it at like one store though, and only in 3/8" and 1/2" ID sizes. The 1/2" ID was like $4/foot :O

edit: also fans. What speed do you recommend for the best mix of quiet and cooling? Also, Panaflo or Yate Loon?

Vlad_13 said:
The color of your water, mainly the blurriness reminds me of mine :p

What you used? I want to make sure i wont use the same liquid. Mainly thats the reason i will be replacing my tubing.
Click to expand...

http://www.dangerden.com/store/product.php?productid=77&cat=11&page=1
Zerex. And it's not actually as bad as the pics make it out to be. :p Dunno why, but I guess the flash just made it look completely opaque. It's really more of a pink color, and a LOT more transparant.
 
Russ said:
Thanks.

2) Is the fuzion you mention also compatible with quad cores? Yes

4) That micro res looks like a good buy. It is :)


7) Yea, I suppose I can wait a week and get that block. Definitely going full cover, can't stand ramsinks anymore, and they're way too hot. That would be my choice too


9) Alright, yea I was leaning towards the MCW30 myself. Great chipset block

About tubing. What do you suggest? Getting Masterkleer again for $0.49/foot is really tempting. :p Tygon 2075 is the king of it all though, right? Can only find it at like one store though, and only in 3/8" and 1/2" ID sizes. The 1/2" ID was like $4/foot :O

I like masterkleer myself. It really minimizes the chances for a leak, and it has a nicer OD, makes for cleaner tubing routing in the case.

edit: also fans. What speed do you recommend for the best mix of quiet and cooling? Also, Panaflo or Yate Loon?
Yates

http://www.dangerden.com/store/product.php?productid=77&cat=11&page=1
Zerex. And it's not actually as bad as the pics make it out to be. :p Dunno why, but I guess the flash just made it look completely opaque. It's really more of a pink color, and a LOT more transparant.
Click to expand...

Answered what I can right now.
 
Vlad_13 said:
Masterkleer OD is "smaller" than Tygon's? :confused:
Click to expand...

Masterkleer 7/16 I.D. has an O.D. of 5/8" versus the 3/4" O.D. of the Tygon 1/2" I.D. the OP mentioned. So yes it is a good deal smaller.
 
Tygon is clearer than Masterkleer... But the 7/16 tygon kinks quite easily for some reason.

I'm not sure why it does but the Masterkleer doesn't.
 
Vlad_13 said:
no no not the 1/2" i'm talking about Tygon 7/16"

http://www.petrastechshop.com/7id5odtyrlat.html

but anyway, it's the same as Masterkleer, 5/8" :eek:
Click to expand...

Interestingly enough, the Masterkleer has the same "minimum bend radius" as the Tygon 3603, according to Petra's at least. So same bend, same thickness, doesn't seem to me like it would kink a *huge* amount earlier than Tygon. Not enough to be worth paying 6x as much for, at least. Unless Tygon is really that much better for longlasting clarity?

Do you guys use the 38.5 CFM 25.4 dBA Yates or 47 CFM 28 dBA ones? Or *gasp* the 70.5 CFM 33 dBA fans?
 
So Re: the CPU block.

D-TEK FuZion - $65
Swiftech Apogee™ GTX - $73
Swiftech Apogee GT - $49

Basically the GTX isn't compatible with my CPU, so that's out unless I upgrade basically my whole computer (which I'd really prefer not to do). Petra's says the GTX is 1C better than the GT at 100W? So why not just get the GT, be able to support my current 939 AND future C2D/quad processors that I buy?

The FuZion also supports all CPUs. How does the GT compare to the FuZion?
 
The GT is within 4c of the Fuzion (in most conditions), and the Fuzion has less flow-restriction.

Personally, I like the Fuzion best, but that's just me.
 
Arcygenical said:
The GT is within 4c of the Fuzion (in most conditions), and the Fuzion has less flow-restriction.

Personally, I like the Fuzion best, but that's just me.
Click to expand...

ew 4c? That can be a big difference, imo. Will probably get the FuZion then.
 
2) Is the fuzion you mention also compatible with quad cores?
Click to expand...
Yes it is, but the GTX really shines on Quadcores. Much more so than the Fuzion, especially if you bow mount your GTX with the larger supplied O-Ring.

4) That micro res looks like a good buy.
Click to expand...
It's something I'll use for most rigs I build for fun. I'd only purchase the EK res for bling or for parallel loops.

6) Ah, yea i totally agree with that rant. So buy these?
Click to expand...
Yes. I get all of mine from Petra's and if you call Quoc, it's basically the only ones he'll recommend with full confidence.

7) Yea, I suppose I can wait a week and get that block. Definitely going full cover, can't stand ramsinks anymore, and they're way too hot.
Click to expand...
Ramsinks are like mosfets. They get hot but they're fine running at very high temps. Passive cooling will do you fine on graphics cards. If you run a separate loop for your graphics cards then by all means get full cover as you won't have to worry about a 4-10C heat dump on your cpu as well. 8800's run ridiculously hot.

8)So.. this and this? (Yes I want blue.)
Click to expand...
Yeap. If you want a brighter blue, then get D-Tek dye.
9) Alright, yea I was leaning towards the MCW30 myself.

About tubing. What do you suggest? Getting Masterkleer again for $0.49/foot is really tempting. :p Tygon 2075 is the king of it all though, right? Can only find it at like one store though, and only in 3/8" and 1/2" ID sizes. The 1/2" ID was like $4/foot :O
Click to expand...

Tygon R3603 7/16 is trash for the reasons mentioned above. It's worse than Masterkleer. However, Tygon R3603 1/2" is better than Masterkleer. Nothing beats the Tygon R3603 in terms of clarity (for bling value). But, then again, all tubes will decay after 3-6 months of usage as your loop will eat away at the walls of the tubing. Only Tygon 2075 is proven to resist any sort of decay/break down. It's nowhere near as clear as the R3603 (its milky) and its quite stiff. However, you'll have piece of mind that you won't gunk up your loops with decaying tubing.

edit: also fans. What speed do you recommend for the best mix of quiet and cooling? Also, Panaflo or Yate Loon?
Click to expand...
Yates are easily the best. They're whisper quiet, even when undervolted (something most fans can't do without some sort of ticking or mechanical noise) and Thermochill builds their radiators with Yates as their standard fan.
 
Hmm alright thanks. What about which Yate to get? Leaning towards one of the faster ones and undervolting them all. Will probably get a fan controller to do that with (most likely the Sunbeam one).

Also, you ever done TEC cooling? Thinking if I upgrade to 2 loops, might as well pelt cool the CPU since it'll be by itself anyway. Do you know if any of the GT, GTX, or FuZion would work with a decent pelt going?
 
Russ said:
Hmm alright thanks. What about which Yate to get? Leaning towards one of the faster ones and undervolting them all. Will probably get a fan controller to do that with (most likely the Sunbeam one).

Also, you ever done TEC cooling? Thinking if I upgrade to 2 loops, might as well pelt cool the CPU since it'll be by itself anyway. Do you know if any of the GT, GTX, or FuZion would work with a decent pelt going?
Click to expand...

Get the 3.50$ ones at Jab-Tech.

If you plan on going peltier cooling... The GTX would work really well.

I just don't like the fact that peltier cooling is often irreversible. Say good bye to the warranty on your motherboard
 
Arcygenical said:
Get the 3.50$ ones at Jab-Tech.

If you plan on going peltier cooling... The GTX would work really well.

I just don't like the fact that peltier cooling is often irreversible. Say good bye to the warranty on your motherboard
Click to expand...

There's 3 different speeds for $3.50 at Jab-Tech. >_<
 
Russ said:
Hmm alright thanks. What about which Yate to get? Leaning towards one of the faster ones and undervolting them all. Will probably get a fan controller to do that with (most likely the Sunbeam one).

Also, you ever done TEC cooling? Thinking if I upgrade to 2 loops, might as well pelt cool the CPU since it'll be by itself anyway. Do you know if any of the GT, GTX, or FuZion would work with a decent pelt going?
Click to expand...


Any yates will do. However if you're getting a fan controller, it'd probably be best to get the fastest yates that are offered on Jab tech or Petras.

TEC cooling is something I've done on a friend's system. It's a lot more complicated as you'll need to purchase an additional PSU such as a Meanwell PSU. Swiftech makes a great TEC block (all in one kit). As mentioned, you'll also have to prep your motherboard by insulating it. This requires a spray/foam that needs to be applied to your motherboard. Most companies will void your warranty if you do such a thing. But, that's why Evga is so great. As long as it resembles a motherboard, they'll accept an RMA. Our first experimentation resulted in a shorted board and EVGA took it back even with all the insulation coating still on.

Head over to xtremesystems.org/forums/ There's a great TEC forum where TEC enthusiasts will answer your questions much better than I can.
 
Alright, made the plunge.

From Petra.
1 5.25" Sunbeam Rheobus Fan Speed Controller - Silver $15.99
15 7/16" ID (5/8" OD) Masterkleer General Purpose Clear PVC Tubing $7.35
1 Arctic Silver Adhesive - 7 grams (part A and B) $7.99
1 Petra'sTech "PT_Nuke" Concentrated Biocide (10mL) $2.50
1 UV Reactive Pentosin G11 Coolant Additive (Blue) - 4oz. $4.50
5 120mm Yate Loon D12SH-12 Case Fan - Black (88 CFM, 40 dBA)
Fan Screws : Silver qty. 4 (+ 0.25) $26.20
2 D-Tek High-Flow Fitting (G 1/4" Thread, 1/2" OD) $4.60
1 Swiftech MCRES-MICRO Hi-Flo Reservoir Additional Barbs : D-Tek High-Flow (+ 4.00)

The adhesive is for my damn ramsinks, they're falling off.

From Swiftnets.
1 MCW30 Chipset Cooler $29.95

From Newegg.
MB ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe NF4SLI 939 - Retail (Price=$139.99)
CPU AMD|A64 X2 3800+ 2.0G 939 90N % - OEM (Price=$81.00)
EXTHD 500G|ST 3.5 ST305004FDA1E1-RK - Retail (Price=$109.99)

External HD cause how can you turn down $110 for a 500GB external (which I needed anyway, not enough space on my current rig)? Figured I'm not gonna be playing games that need a C2D/Quad Core for a while (kinda meh on Crysis/UT anyway, beyond ogling at the SSes), so instead of upgrading my cpu, gpu, ram, AND mobo, I got the mobo I need to replace my dead one, and paid $70 (there was a $10 discount for cpu+mobo combo) for a kickass X2. :) Always wanted one of those, I'm glad I didn't buy it when it was like $350+.
 
I'm running the same mobo CPU combo and I'm hitting 2.6 at 1.5Vcore. You'll find that the A8N32SLI runs considerably hotter (the CPU does in it I should say) than other 939 boards. Why this is I have no clue but I know that my 3800+ runs 10C hotter in the ASUS that it does in my AN8 Fatal1ty at the same Vcore.

I think you'll enjoy it though.
 
good to know. ;)

So I got a bunch of Yates in case I wanted to do a push/pull setup, what do you think of doing that? Or just pull maybe?

Also, how many watts does a usual fan pull at 12V? Wondering how many I can hook up per channel to the controller, since I plan on turning them all down to 7v.
 
With Yates, 3 fans would just push you over the maximum allowed amps/watts per channel at full speed. I'd run 2 per channel to be safe which is what I did for my sunbeam rheobus until I went towards the mCubed BigNG/miniNG/sensorbus route.

Push/pull will gain you about 1-3C in performance depending on how maxed out your radiator is. If you're not stressing your rad, you won't see much benefit. Typically, pull generates less noise as turbulence isn't generated by forcing air through the radiator fins.
 
Well if I go the way it's looking now, I'll have CPU, GPU, and NB blocks in the loop. Probably will be wanting to get the most out of whatever CPU I'm using, so who knows.

I'll have to play around with it, probably ending up with either 2 fans at high speed in pull, or 4 in push/pull at lower speeds.
 
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