Walking Into Intel Territory And Need Some Help

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tsuehpsyde

Supreme [H]ardness
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I'm looking into building a workstation for my father, who prefers Intel after years of Intel processors. I'm looking into building a machine for him instead of getting raped at Circuit City for one. Problem is, this will be my first Intel build since the first P4's came out, so things have changed a bit...I've noticed LGA775 being the main swing of things (i assume) and also socket 478....Now, once this machine is built, it's built...there's no need to 'upgrade this' anytime in the near future, so longevity can be thrown right out the window :) What I'm looking for is if there's a huge performance difference between the two. Also, I notice Dual-Channel memory all over the place...is Dual-Channel memory mandatory now for P4's? Bah, someone help! haha, thanks
 
So you are looking for a stable Intel platform that is able to work well as a workstation AND you aren't worried about upgrading to the latest and greatest in the future?

I would definitely recommend going with an i865PE based motherboard (Socket 478) and a corresponding Intel CPU. Since you will most-likely not be overclocking, the PAT emulation most of the better companies out there have developed is actually better than Performance Acceleration Technology (PAT) developed by Intel itself. PAT (and equivalent) basically allows you to use medium-to-high latency memory with less of a performance hit.

Of course keep in mind that these latency-enhancing technologies do only work when two memory modules are present (for dual-channel memory configuration), but if you really do want to save a few bucks, you can go for a single-channel solution and it will indeed work just fine.

As for the huge performance differences... that all depends on what your father is going to do with that workstation. If he's only going to be working from MS Office based programs, then almost anything will justify the needs. However, if he will be looking to use this machine as a graphics, sound, or video workstation, I would definitely recommend spending the few extra dollars and going for two matching pairs of memory verses just one.

A quick example of a solid workstation (CPU, motherboard, memory from Newegg):

- Intel P4 2.4C 800MHz FSB - $140
- MSI 865PE Neo2-V Motherboard - $68.00
- Corsair Value RAM (256x2) - $89.00

I hope this helps!

- James
 
I need something a little spicier than that lol....he wants speed....Here's what I'm planning on building


3.2GHz Pentium4 With HT (possibly the E, but not sure which cores are better)
512MB single-stick of memory (not sure if 478 runs Dual-Channel DDR, or just regular DDR)
and a board to match those two....once I have those setup, It's easy sailing from there...one thing I notice is Intel boards like onboard video (blah). If it was DVI, then I might use it lol....

Any ideas? I really need to know about the 478pin/memory matches...because I don't want to buy Single-Channel DDR only to find out I needed Dual-Channel.
 
You don't need such a high end processor for a workstation, you can't tell the difference between the two.
 
trust me, it's neccessary :) he uses alot of processor-intense aps, like photoshop and other image-related things...plus alot of layout-based programs. Speed is neccessary to get things done fast...time is money (as dumb as that sounds)....needs to be quick..like when we have to make a layout in 20 mins, you need reaction-time from the computer on your side.
 
lol, nice link :D

anyway...can someone help me out with the memory thing? That's the only thing I am confused on...if the 478 needs dual-channel, i'll get it....if it's optional than no...but I'm assuming (omfg the assume!) that HT does *2 things at once* so it would need DUAL-channel...but like my sig says, I like my AMDs so I'm unsure about how Intel's newest setup's work
 
tsuehpsyde said:
lol, nice link :D

anyway...can someone help me out with the memory thing? That's the only thing I am confused on...if the 478 needs dual-channel, i'll get it....if it's optional than no...but I'm assuming (omfg the assume!) that HT does *2 things at once* so it would need DUAL-channel...but like my sig says, I like my AMDs so I'm unsure about how Intel's newest setup's work
Click to expand...

it supports dual channel, and p4's REALLY benifit from it, they are bandwidth crazy. it would definiatly benifit your father to get a dual chanel 256x2 kit. (it is NOT required however)

HT is something completly different, its a way to keep the pipe somewhat full when there is a branch misprediction. before, when there was a branch misprediction, the pipeline had to be completly flushed. it allows two process to be run at once along different stages of the pipeline, its kinda like a half assed SMP.
 
I know this is an Intel board, and I really hate to ask this question....but I'm going to....


*graps ahold of something to save himself from the impact*

Would an Athlon64 run better than an P4 w/ HT?

*oh god, don't hurt me* lol


I've just always read for like Adobe programs Intel's were better than AMD, but the word 'half assed' scares me....and I used to love Intel...my current linux fileserver is an Intel Pentium3 750MHz....but I've lost faith lately...I half want to sell my dad on the idea of an Athlon64, but I'm not sure how much faster a Hyper-Threading P4 is. Opinions?
 
tsuehpsyde said:
but the word 'half assed' scares me....Opinions?
Click to expand...

i am a fervent AMD fan, keep that in mind. i said half assed just because of hte fact that it will not work as well as SMP does. in other words, a dual xeon or dual opteron (especially the opteron!) would rape it in anything multithreaded or multitasking. you have to remember; however, that dually system would cost an arm and a leg.. and hte other arm and leg.. more than a single p4 setup

Kyle is very passionate about telling us how much smoother multitasking is on the p4 becuase of HT, and i have heard other reports of this as well. if your dad is doing image work and multitasking alot with no gaming, p4 HT would probably be your best bet.
 
Do you need a special motherboard for dual-channel memory, or does DDR and DDR2 run in the same DIMM?
 
most motherboards now support dual channel..just check under their features in case.

DDR and DDR2 are two different types of RAM...and in your case you probably won't need DDR2
 
I strongly recommend a gig of RAM, 512 doesnt really cut it anymore, especially if he's doing heavy duty PS work.
 
tsuehpsyde said:
Do you need a special motherboard for dual-channel memory, or does DDR and DDR2 run in the same DIMM?
Click to expand...

any p4 HT mobo will support dual channel, and DDR2 is incompatable with DDR. to run DDR2 you need an LGA775 board wtih DDR compatability, but honestly, DDR2 is a little less than worthless right now. the main reason for it is because DDR is having a hard time scaling higher, and DDR2 has a new PCB design that allows it too do so. since no current processors are using higher than a 200fsb (400 dual pumped for AMD, 800 quad pumped for Intel), with the exception of the new 3.46EE :rolleyes:, DDR2 is aboslutly worthless at this point in time.

invest in a good 865/875(s478) board with a 3.2C (the northwood is a bit faster at 3.2, the presscott starts taking over at ~3.6-3.7. the northwood will also run cooler) and i garuntee your dad will be very happy :)

depending on how much image stuff your dad is doing, you might want to consider a Gig dual channel kit

edit: wow, as much as i dont like the p4, im really surprised at how much i know.. lol
 
Here is the motherboard/CPU/memory configuration I was going to go with...thoughts?

CPU:
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=19-116-172&catalog=23&manufactory=BROWSE

Motherboard:
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=13-130-443&catalog=23&manufactory=BROWSE

Memory:
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=20-141-424&catalog=23&manufactory=BROWSE

That memory isn't dual-channel...but if I needed Dual-Channel, would this work in that board?
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-141-423&depa=1

apprently dual-channel only comes in 2 packs....
 
get the 3.2C :)

dual channel NEEDS two sticks. two sticks of ram in two channels.. dual channel!
BTW, its the same thing on AMD systems, it just doesnt have as much of an impact on AMD chips. the p4's need alot more bandwidth than the a64 does

dont know anything about p4 mobos, ill let someone else enlighten you on the mobo ;)
 
You never really gave any budget that your working with here so I'm gonna upgrade you a bit.

Intel P4 3.2c

ASUS P4C800 Deluxe mobo

Corsair Value Select ram

With the above components, I guarantee satisfactionn. At least for everything you've discussed. If he's really serious about speed you can consider upgrading the ram to something like the XMS series of ram from Corsair. If you look at peoples sig's around here you'll see similar setups. Also, it's really not that expensive. Have fun putting it all together.
 
All of the above, great advice!

Regarding HyperThreading and it's multitasking capabilities... let me just say that I'm one of those that agree with Kyle (to a degree) and the only reason I haven't yet upgraded to an A64 system is because of this stupid technology. Mind you, I say stupid, because now that I've experienced HT I don't want to let it go... it really does make a difference.

So for instance, I also work with Photoshop and similar programs. If you are working with Adobe Pagemill for instance (which isn’t used anymore, but I still like it) and you have also happen to be working with multiple raw images, these images alone after applying filters and layered effects can reach 300 to 500 MB before compression. With the A64 system, while acceptable (mind you the system doesn't crash), just doesn't work as well (or "smooth" if you want to use that word) as the P4 with HT.

That also leads me to the next point. If he's going to use this as a graphics workstation, I also agree that 1GB of RAM will be very beneficial. As for the CPU, I also agree that if you are not going to be overclocking, the Northwoods ("C") are currently the better CPU's. I say currently, because knowing Adobe, they'll probably release an SSE3 enhanced patch of some kind for Photoshop.

Still, I can currently compile a 300MB image with 4 layers (and other tasks running in the background) in about 3 to 4 seconds, depending on the complexity of the filters (so, please do not take this as a "be all" benchmark). The memory does help a lot in this case however, as there would be a lot of thrashing (accessing the hard drive) if I didn't have at least 1GB of RAM in the system.

- James
 
I ordered the parts guys, thanks for all ur help....very very much appriciated.

Probably wouldn't have had enough confidence to order them. Got the MSI board i had booked above (MSI biased :)), the kingston Dual-Channel 512x2 setup (also kingston biased), and went for the 3.2C retail with HSF. I'm pretty sure he'll be happy....otherwise 'll punish you all! :p jk
 
By the way, You can buy two individual sticks of ram, of the same size and preferebbly the same timings and speed, and get dual channel. YOu just need two sticks of eqivalence. But buying a dual channel kit is good.
 
MSI wasn't recommended, it's just the brand i <3 for motherboards :)

Update guys, all the parts came in (except the DVD-ROM/DVD Burner) and setup the machine....HT works, dual channel memory is all happy....3.2C is definately a quick little # on applications. I still think my 3400+ is a smidge bit faster, but I'm not sure...I'll wait til I see pagemaker and photoshop get fired up. Final system stats for those interested


Intel Pentium4 Socket 478 3.2GHz C
MSI 865G NEO2-PLS
2x512MB Kingston Dual-Channel DDR400 3-3-3-8
Sony 16x DVD Burner (with dual-layer support)
Sony 16x DVD-ROM
120GB Maxtor 7200RPM Ulra ATA133
MSI GeForce FX5200 128MB DDR (just for the DVI-out)
Linksys Wireless-G Adapter w/ Speed Booster

Not too bad of a work machine with a Windows XP Professional OEM, all together being like $990 shipped. Still waiting on those DVD drives though...apparently the egg's $7 factory had some technical/mechanical issues, so they're working 24/7 to catch up to the orders. They said they were like a week behind when I called :rolleyes:
 
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