What kind of glue should I use for fixing this?

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StoleMyOwnCar

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I have a pair of Paradigm V3's (been loving them) that I got off of Ebay and I very recently started noticing this flapping/farting/extra vibration noise whenever I played any deeper bass, on one of my speakers; it definitely wasn't there before. So like an idiot the first thing I did was practically saw off the front with a kitchen knife (you can't take the grill off) to see if there was a tear somewhere. Wasn't one, but I did notice that applying a small amount of pressure to the cone stopped the sound. I replaced the grill/wood back on (I'll need wood glue for that later) and then decided to unscew the back instead.

I didn't see any wires or capacitors messed up inside, so I then unscrewed the driver and pulled it out. At first there was nothing visibly wrong so I tried gently pressing on the cone, and I think I found what the culprit is:

dWL80qc.png


It looks like the cone broke away from the surround (or half of it at least; the other half is fine). The surround itself is still in fine shape, though. Am I right in thinking this is the problem? If so, what kind of glue should I use to glue the two back together?

Thanks
 
hi... so next time before you start hacking things apart.. maybe just breathe and get on the internet and start looking for information?

most things you can take apart short of sawing them to bits with a kitchen knife...


what model of paradigm's are these (titian ,atoms...etc??)


in general what has happened is the surrounds have deteriorated quite a common problem and a relatively easy one to remedy (unless the cones / voice coils have been damaged (probably they haven't))


Basically what you do to resolve this is find a suitable surround kit and order it) remove the woofers, clean (carefully) the old surrounds off, get some hobby glue, apply the glue to the new surrounds, carefully place the new surrounds ...make sure they are centered (for my part i like to do this by hooking the speaker up to an amp (before glue sets) laying the speaker on it's back and playing the speaker (at low volume) the vibration will more or less perfectly center the new surround then let it dry overnight and then put everything back together and done...


i will post more pictures later but here is the kit i ordered off ebay $15~ in this case to repair these advent mini's i got a bit ago for $5



(I had done some work on these already (cleaned and applied some finish restore to the wood endcaps).. removed the old surrounds at that time...)




these guys have a decent guide on what to do here

http://www.simplyspeakers.com/speaker-repair-foam-edge-replacement-instructions.html
 
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atarione said:
<snip to make post more readable>
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Well I didn't saw everything to bits mate, and the front wooden section is already partially off. I think it was just glued on from the beginning. I didn't really do anything I couldn't fix. Also these are Paradigm Atom V3's. You can't get the front off by doing anything other than... tearing it apart somehow or other. I didn't know that I could get into the speaker and just unscrew the driver that easily. ._.; I don't think researching the internet would have helped me much, it's just that I didn't notice the screws on the back till later. I was just assuming they made these so that you couldn't take them apart easily.

Technically I could put the part that I "sawed off" back on using duct tape, and it didn't seem to affect sound much anyhow. But that's enough for excuses about my idiocy!

Main Question:

Anyway the thing is I'm not sure if the foam just utterly needs replacing. Could you give me your opinion after looking at these next 3 shots? I tried to take some better ones, including an overhead (sorry these are massive for some reason):

dxMkRX9.jpg

pZmz9he.jpg

Gek6Y0c.jpg


I'm not an expert like you but to me it just looks like the very bottom layer of the surround connected to the cone came off onto the cone. Does this really warrant a full surround replacement? Or are you saying it's better to because the rest could come off later anyway?

Thanks for your info so far.
 
hi... so two questions?


a. is the surround rubber or is is cloth / foam?

b. has it just lifted from the edge of the cone or has the surround actually torn there?
because honestly I cant tell from the pictures, in some it looks like it tore and in others just lifted


if the surround is rubber and doesn't seem all dry / brittle and if it has just lifted then I'd probably say getting a bit of hobby glue and gluing it back down is probably fine.. if it tore personally i'd get a kit and replace the surrounds (do both for consistent sound between the speakers).


this is the glue i use for these types of projects

http://www.amazon.com/ALEENES-15599...TF8&qid=1397537806&sr=8-9&keywords=hobby+glue
 
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Yeah, it's really hard to get a good screenshot, so I'll do my best to describe this in text:
It has a kind of styrofoam-ish texture, so I'm guessing it's... probably foam. I haven't ever felt them to compare, so I really don't know. I tried poking around on it a bit and it doesn't really seem to be falling apart. It looks like what happened is a part of the bottom of the contact point in between the surround and the cone tore tore off onto the cone; ie a layer. The structure is intact, it's just a layer came off onto the cone. I guess the best analogy would be a piece of dead skin coming off.

Also what surrounds would you suggest? Diameter all the way across looks to be about 13.5 cm
 
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yeah sorry those are the right ones for the atom's


so as you saw from the noise the surrounds seal the woofer (necessary) and they also guide the VC as it moves in and out while making sound if the surrounds are deteriorating / bad the VC may start rubbing and eventually burn the voice coil out...

if you want to try to glue it down ... that is up to you from the sounds of it and what they look like to me I'd replace them
 
Another vote for just replacing it. Once the surround begins separating from the cone (on older speakers), something, be it the glue or the surround itself, has dried out and become brittle. In other words, the separation is a symptom of a more general problem.
 
Fair enough, I most likely will replace them; thanks for the suggestion.

First, however, I want to at least try sticking the surround back on to make sure that the surround being loose was indeed the problem. Is there some kind of easy to take off tape that I can use for that?
 
StoleMyOwnCar said:
Fair enough, I most likely will replace them; thanks for the suggestion.

First, however, I want to at least try sticking the surround back on to make sure that the surround being loose was indeed the problem. Is there some kind of easy to take off tape that I can use for that?
Click to expand...


not that i know of ... anything good enough to make a decent seal is going to be a PITA to get off...that might well damage the cones trying to get it off..


mean while I have completed the refoam of my Mini Advent's and as you can see have been trying them out a bit


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhNWQNM_ZI4



on the upside I am 99% sure the issue you hear is the failed surround ..... gently push down on the cones (making sure not to be off center) if they move in and out without a rubbing sound and given they are making sound (albeit messed up with hole in surrounds) then almost certainly a proper refoaming will have them good to go again.
 
In my experience a failed surround rarely gives very large disturbances - it mostly produces lack of bass and perhaps some wind noise on high volume, what's more common is the dust cap in the center of the speaker detaching. That will create an extremely annoying disturbance. But since you clearly have damage there you can try to block it with tape. If that won't help, try pressing the middle part of the speaker with your finger while playing music to see if the source of noise is the cap instead.
 
atarione said:
not that i know of ... anything good enough to make a decent seal is going to be a PITA to get off...that might well damage the cones trying to get it off..


mean while I have completed the refoam of my Mini Advent's and as you can see have been trying them out a bit


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhNWQNM_ZI4



on the upside I am 99% sure the issue you hear is the failed surround ..... gently push down on the cones (making sure not to be off center) if they move in and out without a rubbing sound and given they are making sound (albeit messed up with hole in surrounds) then almost certainly a proper refoaming will have them good to go again.
Click to expand...

Well I don't need a decent seal, I just need something that will stick for maybe 1-2 mins. Is there some easy release tape that would be just good enough for this?

B00nie said:
In my experience a failed surround rarely gives very large disturbances - it mostly produces lack of bass and perhaps some wind noise on high volume, what's more common is the dust cap in the center of the speaker detaching. That will create an extremely annoying disturbance. But since you clearly have damage there you can try to block it with tape. If that won't help, try pressing the middle part of the speaker with your finger while playing music to see if the source of noise is the cap instead.
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Well I have tried pressing down on both the cone and the middle with the speaker was playing. What happened is the extra vibration I was hearing stopped entirely/almost entirely, and then also the bass was obviously dulled since I was pressing down on it. Actually I don't think I even had to press much. Just gently touching almost did it...

Did I mention this only happened on pretty low frequencies? It seemed to be relatively fine until I reached around... well I don't remember exactly, but I think ~100Hz and below, maybe?
 
i am basically 100% (all but at least) sure the problem is the surround

personally I think messing around with it is just a waste of time when $2~ bottle of hobby glue and $20~ surround kit (depending on source...kit might well include glue actually) will solve the problem for years and years to come.


however let it not be said that I am not willing to google something :D

this has various input on patching a surround

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1104860


the bike patch or small cloth glued over hole ideas seem like they would hold air .... i guess.... however personally I wouldn't mess about i'd just do it right and replace the surrounds now.
 
Okay I'll just go for getting that one you linked. I'm just a bit nervous since I've never replaced surrounds. Hopefully isn't too hard. I'm not exactly a master craftsman (or remotely close...).
 
There is a place online called parts express. they are a hobby shop for people that like to build their own speakers.

They will have the kind of glues and stuff you need.

https://www.parts-express.com/

they also have a cool catalog with speaker repair and building tips inside. I order stuff them all the time so they keep sending the catalog.


https://www.parts-express.com/5-minute-two-part-epoxy-adhesive-9-oz-kit--340-652

http://www.parts-express.com/speaker-repair-glue-1-oz-bottle--340-076

http://www.parts-express.com/black-rubber-cement-speaker-repair-glue-1-oz-bottle--340-078

maybe this ? it is an expoxy for speaker cone building.

You can ask them they have a help desk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwcfP5pKeek
 
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StoleMyOwnCar said:
Okay I'll just go for getting that one you linked. I'm just a bit nervous since I've never replaced surrounds. Hopefully isn't too hard. I'm not exactly a master craftsman (or remotely close...).
Click to expand...



Honestly I hear you, I was nervous as heck when I refoamed my first set of speakers (Minimus 77's) but if you take a look at the guides (and / or join the audiokarma forums...lots of knowledge and generally nice helpful people over there) and take your time you should be fine..

I don't have the most finely honed skills in this regard either, but I have successfully refoamed 5 sets now...

I will say however cleaning the old surround off is a messy job so be prepared for that....with smaller speakers I have had good luck applying the glue getting stuff more or less lined up then while the glue is still wet hooking the speaker up and laying it on it's back (so woofer is pointed straight up) then playing the speaker at low~ish volume for a bit to center the surround then taking the woofer out and placing it face down overnight (so gravity helps hold cone to the surround) and letting it dry.
 
Mainly I'm just worried about how to get the glued on stuff from the old one off... or do I have to?
 
If you mess it up you can try contacting the speaker manufacturer, they often sell replacement speaker drivers. If your noise went away by touching the dust cap I would place my main suspicion there. Of course your surrounds need to be also fixed but the dust cap detaching is really devious because it appears fine on surface but makes a horrible racket. You can take a hobby knife and carefully go around the dust cap corners. If you can lift even 1cm section of the dust cap corner with the knife (be careful though) then it has detached and is the source of the noise. The surrounds usually don't make a racket because they are more flexing than pumping like the dust cap is doing.

Of course worst case scenario would be that you have overdriven your speakers and your voice coil is detached. That may also be fixed by pressing the cone if it centers the voice coil. The noise from voice coil is more like a scratching noise, dust cap makes a flapping disturbance. If you power off your speakers and press the dust cap gently, do you hear a scratching noise? If you do then you have a misaligned voice coil and fixing this gets a bit tricky for the DIY guy.
 
No the noise went away by touching either the dust cap or the cone. All that seemed to matter is dulling the vibration or something. Also I did try pressing into the cone/cap while it was off. As long as I was relatively on center, didn't hear anything. I also checked around the dust cap edges (this is just cursory check for now). I didn't see any signs of lifting, looks pretty secure.

I already ordered the foam set a few days ago that atarione linked. Kind of anxious for it to get here because I really like these speakers and am missing my left one... but at least it still sounds good mono. Not as good, but it's fine.
 
Bah, looks like I'm going to need a new gasket for this speaker, too. The guide that came with these surronds mentioned the gasket too late, so I just ended up scraping it off into pieces and vacuuming it up later. Well not that I would have removed it without breaking it into pieces anyway. It was this gooey rubber-ish mess and it was really hard to get off without tearing it. Sigh. The thing that's annoying is that's the only part that you should try to keep on from the old set, but they don't just bold that in guides at the top. I was under the assumption that everything from the old surrounds needed to go.

I also see some places recommend removing the dust cap to align. Another suggests holding the thing in place with clothespins. I want to use the latter, but Without a gasket I'm worried about pressing on the foam too hard...?

How much of the old foam should I try to get off of the cones? It seems pretty hard to get off. I've seen some places recommend some kind of alcohol. I don't have any of that right now...
 
If I were you I would try to call the factory and see if they still stock replacement drivers. They do not cost much and you save a world of trouble.
 
Well for one, then each side would sound different. Second, I already got the foams. Third, I got these off Ebay so I dunno how much the driver would cost, but I doubt it's available.

And anyway I have plenty of money to just outright spend on a new set of speakers. I just really like these. So if I mess this up I guess I'll just give the one speaker that I do have to someone or something, and get something else. Naturally I don't wanna do that because I do like these, so I do want to repair them. How necessary is the gasket for these Atom v3's?
 
oh.. oops.. the gasket isn't probably really all that especially needed.. might have made it slightly easier gluing the new foam in place

but of the set's i have done 2 of them had gaskets (that I managed to save) and the other 3 didn't have any such gaskets ..and you just glued the surrounds to the metal speaker basket (as had been done years earlier at the factory).


especially with small woofers like the atoms I wouldn't worry about taking the dust caps off all personally ... i would glue teh surround to the speaker frame (getting it in the right spot) then once that glue dries (next day) i'd get the speaker box ready by hooking it up to my amp (amp off for now) and laying the cabinet on it's back (so woofer will point straight up when installed). I would then glue the surround to the cone, once i had it attached I would hook the woofer up and place it into the speaker cabinet

I would then turn on the amp and play something (whatever some people use certain frequencies...but I am lazy so i just play some music) at low~ish volumes (while the glue is wet) anyways the idea is that the movement of the woofer will naturally center the surround.

Once I'd done that I'd take the woofer(s) out and place them face down and let them dry over night...
 
oh and just go get a bottle of 91% Isopropyl alcohol at the drug store it will make getting the old surround off the woofers much easier (don't soak the thing in it) but a bit to help get the old surround off won't hurt anything..

kind of water over the bridge now but the rubbing alcohol would have probably helped get the surround off without wrecking the gasket (next time).
 
Lol the problem with all of these speaker guides is they make it look so easy because they're working on such a huge woofer. These Atom V3 woofers are tiny compared to those monsters. Like even that small set of surrounds I got with your advice is still a bit large on the circumference (I'll have to cut a bit off after gluing them on, and it makes gluing them on center kind of difficult).

Anyway I'm going to go ahead and try to glue this thing down to the frame at least. I managed to get that part pretty clean I think... somehow. I didn't even have rubbing alcohol, so I had to scrape it off with my nails lol.

... Actually I went and did it while I was typing this up. I feel kind of cheated with this kit. The glue they gave me here is a heck of a lot harder to work with than simple Elmer's-ish glue they tend to use in the demonstrations. This stuff is pretty much super glue. I recognize the smell. Like I was carefully applying it to the frame, spreading it out as I went along and by the time I got around it was already becoming jellyish. And I wasn't working all that slow, either. That's kind of ridiculous. So I hurriedly put the surround on there, and well. Yeah. It's on there. I just hope that it's round enough. I know it's a bit off-center but it's bigger than my speakers anyway, so it will reach into the cone enough to glue on, on all sides. The other issue is that not only is the surround larger than the frame, but the frame has no real edges. so centering this thing would have been a pain on Elmer's but this glue they gave me didn't even allow second chances. Sigh.

Well I guess I'll see how it turns out tomorrow and try my best at attaching to the cone. I might have to buy another type of glue because I REALLY... REALLY cannot fathom how the heck I'm going to attach this with super glue. I would have to be perfect on the first try...
 
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StoleMyOwnCar said:
Well for one, then each side would sound different. Second, I already got the foams. Third, I got these off Ebay so I dunno how much the driver would cost, but I doubt it's available.

And anyway I have plenty of money to just outright spend on a new set of speakers. I just really like these. So if I mess this up I guess I'll just give the one speaker that I do have to someone or something, and get something else. Naturally I don't wanna do that because I do like these, so I do want to repair them. How necessary is the gasket for these Atom v3's?
Click to expand...

The factory original driver will not sound any different, don't worry :) It's more likely that any mistake in aligning your DIY foams will produce much worse problems.
 
StoleMyOwnCar said:
Lol the problem with all of these speaker guides is they make it look so easy because they're working on such a huge woofer. These Atom V3 woofers are tiny compared to those monsters. Like even that small set of surrounds I got with your advice is still a bit large on the circumference (I'll have to cut a bit off after gluing them on, and it makes gluing them on center kind of difficult).

Anyway I'm going to go ahead and try to glue this thing down to the frame at least. I managed to get that part pretty clean I think... somehow. I didn't even have rubbing alcohol, so I had to scrape it off with my nails lol.

... Actually I went and did it while I was typing this up. I feel kind of cheated with this kit. The glue they gave me here is a heck of a lot harder to work with than simple Elmer's-ish glue they tend to use in the demonstrations. This stuff is pretty much super glue. I recognize the smell. Like I was carefully applying it to the frame, spreading it out as I went along and by the time I got around it was already becoming jellyish. And I wasn't working all that slow, either. That's kind of ridiculous. So I hurriedly put the surround on there, and well. Yeah. It's on there. I just hope that it's round enough. I know it's a bit off-center but it's bigger than my speakers anyway, so it will reach into the cone enough to glue on, on all sides. The other issue is that not only is the surround larger than the frame, but the frame has no real edges. so centering this thing would have been a pain on Elmer's but this glue they gave me didn't even allow second chances. Sigh.

Well I guess I'll see how it turns out tomorrow and try my best at attaching to the cone. I might have to buy another type of glue because I REALLY... REALLY cannot fathom how the heck I'm going to attach this with super glue. I would have to be perfect on the first try...
Click to expand...




this is the glue I use

http://www.michaels.com/Aleene's®-Original-Tacky-Glue®/gc0040,default,pd.html


so... some will disagree but if it is easier you can (if you want) usually glue the surround to the back of the speaker cone... some speakers have it this way from the factory, this is a rather controversial subject with some pro's even claiming it makes no difference with others claiming if it wasn't glued behind before you shouldn't do it that way, in my experience i've been happy with the results and it is much easier ... but up to you

bummer sorry the glue that came with the kit sounds like it isn't very well suited... if you go to the store and get some of that hobby glue it should be easier to work with on attaching to the cones at least.
 
Yep, that's the stuff I found in this one thread:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-414237.html

Also, I decided to utterly scrap that surround attach job I did earlier. I woke up today and tried messing around with the edges of the surround that I glued on, and it came off somewhat easily.... and ripped some parts of the surround with it. So now I have somewhat a mess of super glue and tiny sections of the surround that actually did glue on (it wasn't that many lol)

According to the topic I linked, super glue isn't even good for sticking surrounds to much of anything. It's used for something else. What the hell, SimplySpeakers? Never again. "Let's not even give this person the glue that we're using in our own friggin demonstrations." Big wtf. I'm rather angry about this.

Well I'm going to pick some of that glue up and see if I could maybe at least get the other surround on right. If I had any experience at this I should have stopped as soon as I smelled the glue they gave me rather than blindly assuming it was fine.
 
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Alright. Got a set of that all purpose glue and a set of paintbrushes from Michael's. Way more paintbrushes than I'll ever need, but eh whatever. Couldn't hurt for later things. I like this glue more. It was harder to get it down, but considering my surround's fit isn't that good it was helpful to be able to slide it around slightly and then settle it in the right place. If any of it isn't stuck down when this stuff dries, I can also simply glue those down separately. I just used a paintbrush to apply it and also used the paintbrush to slowly try to massage the edges down after I put it on the cone. I'm deciding to put it on the cone first instead of the frame since my frame is a huge PITA to work with.

To replace the gasket, I also bought some stick on foam from Michael's. Was like a buck. I should just be able to stick it on around the surround, right?

I'm kind of annoyed I wasted half of this kit, but I guess that's what happens when my fine motor skills aren't perfect and I'm not used to these arts and crafts projects. That glue was just way too unforgiving considering how this surround fits onto my speaker. Hopefully this time I can get it right >_>

If it doesn't work out, I'll just find a nearby speaker repair place. Argh, I keep noticing when I go back and look at my other posts, sometimes I interchange the words "cone" and "surround." My brain's all jumbled up on this...
 
Well, I guess I'm somewhat using this as a blog now but uh... last entry anyway...

Mission success. (I know, some of you are rolling your eyes here because this is just a refoaming...
I woke up today and put the driver in, and then tested it out on the trinity (in increasing bass) of Porcupine Tree, Zircon and Wolfmother (the flac versions, naturally, not these Youtube versions)... and a few by Disturbed and Midnight Massacre and some of my Ar Tonelico soundtracks for good measure. Everything sounds fine. Better than ever in fact. May just be my imagination, but the bass sounds more controlled and accurate now. Like I can actually hear more of the instrument, not just the bass. Hopefully I did a good enough job (doubtful, some of that gluing was rough) so that it'll stay like that, because this is excellent.

Here are a few pictures if anyone is interested: http://imgur.com/i3ZX0fU,HQPLDai,nJ4AyoS (I know, lol@duct tape repair job on the frame I sawed off, right?)

Just wanted to say a lot of thanks to you atarione.
You really guided me through this. While I didn't put it on the same way you did (I did cone first), the rest of your info was really invaluable. Thanks a lot.

Edit... Wonder if I have to do the other speaker too, to get them sounding comparable...
 
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