Which OS?

C

Canadian in Berlin

Gawd
Joined
Sep 8, 2007
Messages
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So I'm doing a big computer upgrade to this:

EVGA nForce 680i LT SLI
XFX/PINE GeForce 8800GTS 320MB
620W Corsair HX620W
Intel Core2 Duo E6750 2x2.67GHz TRAY 4MB
Scythe Ninja Plus
2048MB A-DATA PC2-800 Vitesta Extreme CL4 KI (Could easily make it 4GB)

But I haven't followed Vista much, but I've heard a lot of bad stuff (drivers, mp3s and network speed, everything you do is being reported to somebody, performance problems, WGA servers...) :(

And not a lot of good things about Vista besides "It's pretty". As far as XP 64 bit, My old comp had random pieces of old hardware, so XP 64 bit was way too much of a pain to use.

So now I'm trying to decide between XP or Vista (and 32 bit or 64 bit from either). I'm not afraid of working on drivers and tweaking thing for a few hours. But I don't want my life to revolve around trying to force vista to work for what I want.

What is so great about Vista, and what is so bad about XP64... or should I just stick with XP32 bit and ignore vista until next year after lots of patches? I'm truly curious and I'm not bashing any systems here.

And please, leave the "OMG VISTA IS TEH LAMEZ" posts somewhere else, I'd like this to be a honest discussion. :)
 
XP64 is a POS and Vista 64 is miles ahead. I would go for XP 32 and then wait until SP1 for Vista.
 
With the amount of RAM that you have and considering the power of the other components, in my opinion, there's no reason not to use vista 32bit. A lot of the support issues that you see are PEBKAC, and the truly legit ones are being worked out. You have been generic hardware so you should be fine.
 
What are you using it for? Looks like you have a pretty nice system there. I personally think you are going to be disappointed if the 2GB RAM starts limiting performance.
IMO I'd upgrade it to 4GB (unless you are just using the basics- which I doubt with this hardware), and get 64 bit.

XP 64 driver support is pretty poor (Granted- it's gotten better- but it is still lacking).
Microsoft didn't require squat for XP 64- which is why hardware makers didn't waste time writing decent drivers for it.

Microsoft, in Vista 64, requires 64 bit drivers of everything now. Which means driver support is excellent in 64 bit Vista.
I'd still make sure all your hardware (count your printers/scanners into that as well) is compatible. If it is- that's your only real hurdle. It can still run all 32 bit software- so you're good to go.

The machine in my signature installed Vista on it, and I didn't have to install a single driver myself.
 
Thanks for the feedback... a few notes then:

Main use will be gaming, somewhat secondary will be 3D Animation/photoediting, I'm not a novice to computers, I just haven't really followed Vista. :)

That leaves me with a few more questions:
1. Have they fixed the problem where when you listen to MP3s it throttles your network connection to 10%... I don't want to LD in my MMO just cause I want to listen to music.
2. How much reporting REALLY goes on with Vista?... I've heard some creepy rumors about software cracks (even when its just a noCD?).
3. What are the biggest (say top 5?) legitimate errors in Vista, and what kind of timeframe are we waiting on for them? And what about some of the PEBKAC errors... just how much are they PEBKAC? (things improperly configured, or is it a 'download and fix crap' thing?)

edit: Does anyone know of a good link to a "getting started, avoid the common pitfalls" guide? I'd be much obliged. :)

edit2: duh, check the FAQ list... sorry. :)
 
I didn't have any problems with XP64 either on a gaming rig. However, once I switched to Vista x64, I didn't have any reasons to go back. A lot of the "negative" things you hear about Vista are just rumors or baseless complaints. Once you actually give it a try for yourself, then you'll be able to form your own opinion.
 
Canadian in Berlin said:
Main use will be gaming, somewhat secondary will be 3D Animation/photoediting, I'm not a novice to computers, I just haven't really followed Vista. :)

That leaves me with a few more questions:
1. Have they fixed the problem where when you listen to MP3s it throttles your network connection to 10%... I don't want to LD in my MMO just cause I want to listen to music.
2. How much reporting REALLY goes on with Vista?... I've heard some creepy rumors about software cracks (even when its just a noCD?).
3. What are the biggest (say top 5?) legitimate errors in Vista, and what kind of timeframe are we waiting on for them? And what about some of the PEBKAC errors... just how much are they PEBKAC? (things improperly configured, or is it a 'download and fix crap' thing?)
Click to expand...


In that case I'd go 4GB RAM for gaming. Since Vista 64 driver support is better (And so much more modern), I'd get that over XP any day.

#1- No idea here, sorry. I havent heard of it- it may have been patched pretty quickly- but having not heard any complains- I'd say it is a non-issue.
#2- Microsoft actually posted what info they "send home". Nothing to worry about (OS Version, stuff like that). You hear some extreeme people claiming otherwise- but they always fail to provide any evidence against it. It's really not much worse than XP would be.
#3- Software compatibility, Hardware compatibility are really the only two. And those aren't Vista errors, just problems with software or drivers. Just do your research- see if anyone has problems with the games you have, and chances are that if there IS problems, there is a patch for it.
Some report loss of FPS in games. But this is such a little loss- it takes tools to measure it (IE- a human can't tell).


Vista 64 is so much more supported than XP 64- I'd almost say you would have more problems with XP64 over Vista64.
 
DeaconFrost said:
I didn't have any problems with XP64 either on a gaming rig. However, once I switched to Vista x64, I didn't have any reasons to go back. A lot of the "negative" things you hear about Vista are just rumors or baseless complaints. Once you actually give it a try for yourself, then you'll be able to form your own opinion.
Click to expand...
The 15GB+ installation size for Vista x64 Ultimate isn't a rumor nor a baseless complaint, especially on my laptop's little 100GB hard drive. I've been running it since February and it's been fine, but I can't justify it on my gaming rig at this time. The only game I really play is Final Fantasy XI, which has known problems with Vista in general. My gaming rig is currently in "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mode. With XP64, it certainly ain't broke.

zacdl said:
Vista 64 is so much more supported than XP 64- I'd almost say you would have more problems with XP64 over Vista64.
Click to expand...
Can you elaborate on this "much more supported" statement?
 
Thanks for the feedback!

#1- No idea here, sorry. I havent heard of it- it may have been patched pretty quickly- but having not heard any complains- I'd say it is a non-issue.

Ok, because this was one of my biggest "no way" reasons for not getting vista. I live on music... I also live on the internet. :)

#2- Microsoft actually posted what info they "send home". Nothing to worry about (OS Version, stuff like that). You hear some extreeme people claiming otherwise- but they always fail to provide any evidence against it. It's really not much worse than XP would be.

Good, because surprisingly often I'll be running more than one piece of software that wants a CD in the drive and I don't feel like explaining in broken german that its not piracy to some angry german police. :p

#3- Software compatibility, Hardware compatibility are really the only two. And those aren't Vista errors, just problems with software or drivers. Just do your research- see if anyone has problems with the games you have, and chances are that if there IS problems, there is a patch for it.

Ok, that sounds pretty normal for any new OS. I'll take a look at it then. Last hurdle of course will be price... how much does vista ultimate x64 usually run?
 
XP 64 is/was more of a technical curiosity than a full fledged OS. It is/was only available through a very few OEM channels and from MSDN. It has never been sold at retail or installed on anything remotely like a mainstream end user or gaming machine. As a result, hardware and software compatibility has always been lacking, and support for the OS continues to dwindle to this day. XP-64 is useful in limited scenarios. I use it at work as my main development workstation, just for the ability to output 64-bit code for our newer servers. I would never, ever think to use it in a gaming machine.

Compatibility and support for the OS is further hampered by the fact that architecturally, XP-64 isn't really XP. It's instead built on the Server 2003 codebase (which has benefits for my specific development scenario) but leads to more compatibility issues when using it in a home environment.

As for Vista, I do believe the issue with MP3's and throttled bandwidth was solved in an early windows update patch. Despite the FUD on the 'net, Vista does not "phone home" more than XP does. If a copy of Vista is found to be pirated, it will go into a reduced functionality mode which severely limits access to the OS until a new key is entered. XP does not have this functionality, although the ability to download updates and service packs is restricted. As for Vista x64, there are still some lingering issues with compatibility (as there are with any new OS,) but it's far more compatible than XP-64 ever was or will be. I've had Vista x64 installed on my rig (see below) since March, and I've had no problems using my rig as a hard core gaming machine.

Mark.
 
Well, I've decided that I'm going to get my rig up and running on XP 32-bit ( I have a "backup" XP install that I'll wipe out and re-install just for this purpose)...

Then once everything is running smooth, I'll wipe out my old XP install (40GB drive) and install vista on it with all the other HDs unplugged... as a safety test, and well it all works good... :)

Then I'll be happy.

Thanks again for your input, I hope this thread will also help other people sitting on the edge looking at rumours. :)
 
SuperSubZero said:
The 15GB+ installation size for Vista x64 Ultimate isn't a rumor nor a baseless complaint, especially on my laptop's little 100GB hard drive.
Click to expand...
I know this is a matter of opinion, but using 15 GB out of a 100 GB drive on a laptop shouldn't cause any problems, issues, or prevent you from doing anything you'd planned on that laptop.
 
DeaconFrost said:
I know this is a matter of opinion, but using 15 GB out of a 100 GB drive on a laptop shouldn't cause any problems, issues, or prevent you from doing anything you'd planned on that laptop.
Click to expand...
Except for being able to use several gigs that would be consumed by the OS. In your world 85GB may last a lifetime, but I can burn 85GB in a very short amount of time if I set my mind to it. About 10GB extra are used vs.an XP64 install, and I have definitely run a hard drive to under 10GB free on many an occasion.

RoBo said:
Lack of drivers for one.
Click to expand...
Lack of drivers for what, exactly?
 
Markyip1 said:
XP-64 is useful in limited scenarios. I use it at work as my main development workstation, just for the ability to output 64-bit code for our newer servers. I would never, ever think to use it in a gaming machine..
Click to expand...
That's too bad, since it has video, sound, and chipset drivers that are current. My XP64 rig runs the same version nVidia drivers as an XP32 user. It runs the same version audio drivers as a XP32 person. It benches in the same range as an XP32 person.

While XP64 kinda fell to the wayside as far as marketing and sales, the success of Win2K3 64-bit has meant there are in fact drivers and support for that OS that XP64 can leech off of. In some respects this is even better than XP32. I mean really, would *YOU* want to be the guy that writes a driver that causes crashes in a production Win2K3 environment? I have more faith in a 64-bit driver than "driver of the week" 32-bit varieties.

XP64 is hardly a dead OS. It's going to fade away as Vista takes over the desktop and eventually Server 2008 becomes the big seller server OS for MS, but as long as someone's supporting Win2K3, they are (indirectly) supporting XP64.
 
Markyip1 said:
XP 64 is/was more of a technical curiosity than a full fledged OS. It is/was only available through a very few OEM channels and from MSDN. It has never been sold at retail or installed on anything remotely like a mainstream end user or gaming machine. As a result, hardware and software compatibility has always been lacking, and support for the OS continues to dwindle to this day. XP-64 is useful in limited scenarios. I use it at work as my main development workstation, just for the ability to output 64-bit code for our newer servers. I would never, ever think to use it in a gaming machine.

Compatibility and support for the OS is further hampered by the fact that architecturally, XP-64 isn't really XP. It's instead built on the Server 2003 codebase (which has benefits for my specific development scenario) but leads to more compatibility issues when using it in a home environment.

As for Vista, I do believe the issue with MP3's and throttled bandwidth was solved in an early windows update patch. Despite the FUD on the 'net, Vista does not "phone home" more than XP does. If a copy of Vista is found to be pirated, it will go into a reduced functionality mode which severely limits access to the OS until a new key is entered. XP does not have this functionality, although the ability to download updates and service packs is restricted. As for Vista x64, there are still some lingering issues with compatibility (as there are with any new OS,) but it's far more compatible than XP-64 ever was or will be. I've had Vista x64 installed on my rig (see below) since March, and I've had no problems using my rig as a hard core gaming machine.

Mark.
Click to expand...

I am sorry to jump the thread and my question is not flame bait. I am just trying to obtain some information on Creative drivers and Vista. I noticed in your sig that you are using a Creative sound card. I have a X-Fi Fatal1ty Extreme Gamer and I want to install Vista 64, but the news on the web about Creative drivers is so full of negative emotion and misinformation that I am having difficulty making an informed decision. My question is: what process did you use to install the drives for you sound card? Did you simply use Creative’s drivers or did you have to use a workaround. Any help would be appreciated.
 
I've been using X-64 almost since it came out, other than drivers I had very little problems with it. I've been tempted to go back to XP a couple of times, but there's no way I'm going Vista32.

But as much as I like it, I'd say its pretty much dead, Vista64 is gaining momentum. It already has a larger installed base and more drivers then xp-64. It may be the OS of choice for gamers, mainly because of the 2gb bug and 4gb limit.

I'll keep xp-64 for a while, but once SP1 for vista64 is out, I'll make the switch.


SuperSubZero said:
That's too bad, since it has video, sound, and chipset drivers that are current. My XP64 rig runs the same version nVidia drivers as an XP32 user. It runs the same version audio drivers as a XP32 person. It benches in the same range as an XP32 person.

While XP64 kinda fell to the wayside as far as marketing and sales, the success of Win2K3 64-bit has meant there are in fact drivers and support for that OS that XP64 can leech off of. In some respects this is even better than XP32. I mean really, would *YOU* want to be the guy that writes a driver that causes crashes in a production Win2K3 environment? I have more faith in a 64-bit driver than "driver of the week" 32-bit varieties.

XP64 is hardly a dead OS. It's going to fade away as Vista takes over the desktop and eventually Server 2008 becomes the big seller server OS for MS, but as long as someone's supporting Win2K3, they are (indirectly) supporting XP64.
Click to expand...
 
jstenuf said:
I am sorry to jump the thread and my question is not flame bait. I am just trying to obtain some information on Creative drivers and Vista. I noticed in your sig that you are using a Creative sound card. I have a X-Fi Fatal1ty Extreme Gamer and I want to install Vista 64, but the news on the web about Creative drivers is so full of negative emotion and misinformation that I am having difficulty making an informed decision. My question is: what process did you use to install the drives for you sound card? Did you simply use Creative’s drivers or did you have to use a workaround. Any help would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

I've been fortunate that I haven't had any serious issues with my X-Fi. However, I use drivers from March, included in a 3rd party compiled application suite (which provides all of the X-Fi applications for Vista.) I've found that the latest May drivers do not work as well.

As far as Creative drivers go, your mileage will vary. There's no harm in trying them out. Just note that you may need to use an older version, or a version compiled by a 3rd party, to get working, full-featured audio. Lately, people have found that a hacked Prelude driver works very well. If you read the Creative forums, you should quickly find posts to all available alternatives to the latest Creative drivers.

Good luck,

Mark.
 
Markyip1 said:
I've been fortunate that I haven't had any serious issues with my X-Fi. However, I use drivers from March, included in a 3rd party compiled application suite (which provides all of the X-Fi applications for Vista.) I've found that the latest May drivers do not work as well.

As far as Creative drivers go, your mileage will vary. There's no harm in trying them out. Just note that you may need to use an older version, or a version compiled by a 3rd party, to get working, full-featured audio. Lately, people have found that a hacked Prelude driver works very well. If you read the Creative forums, you should quickly find posts to all available alternatives to the latest Creative drivers.

Good luck,

Mark.
Click to expand...

Thank you.
 
zacdl said:
Wow- didn't know there was anyone left who thought logically :D
Click to expand...

Server infrastructure course lesson 1
Real Life lesson 5097975 or so. SOmewhere around age 6... new improved shizz breaks old busted shizz.

As I Lay Dying said:
have you have considered linux or bsd?
Click to expand...

-Gamer
- I'M not gaming on a virtual machine.
- It's gonna be on a different HD
- Wife also will have it soon, my mom switched a few months ago and I walked her through it by phone. :)
 
SuperSubZero said:
The 15GB+ installation size for Vista x64 Ultimate isn't a rumor nor a baseless complaint,
Click to expand...
It's 8GB + the size of the swap file and hibernate file(s), which depend on the system memory size. With 2GB main memory that the OP listed, the total foot print of Vista Ultimate would be around 12-13GB if he uses hibernation, or 10-11GB if he doesn't. That also includes the original installation files so when he adds components ("turn windows features on/off" in CP) he's not prompted to insert the DVD.
 
pxc said:
It's 8GB + the size of the swap file and hibernate file(s), which depend on the system memory size. With 2GB main memory that the OP listed, the total foot print of Vista Ultimate would be around 12-13GB if he uses hibernation, or 10-11GB if he doesn't. That also includes the original installation files so when he adds components ("turn windows features on/off" in CP) he's not prompted to insert the DVD.
Click to expand...
My c:\windows is 13GB. The two Program Files directories are about 2GB total. That does not include swap or hibernation (I have that disabled anyway). In there somewhere is the single Ultimate extra I installed, the Japanese IME/UI. Otherwise I haven't installed anything sizable in any default Windows directory.
 
Canadian in Berlin said:
#2- Microsoft actually posted what info they "send home". Nothing to worry about (OS Version, stuff like that). You hear some extreeme people claiming otherwise- but they always fail to provide any evidence against it. It's really not much worse than XP would be.

Good, because surprisingly often I'll be running more than one piece of software that wants a CD in the drive and I don't feel like explaining in broken german that its not piracy to some angry german police. :p
Click to expand...

Ever consider running the Virtual CD applet? All you need to do is create ISOs of the CDs you use, mount them when necessary (there is a "persistent mount" feature to keep them present after reboots), and then run your software with zero fuss and no need for questionable cracks. Problem solved, and it works in XP and Vista.
 
OMG VISTA IS TEH LAMEZ

Stick with XP32, I wouldn't even consider Vista till at least SP1. I personally don't see a need to run a 64bit version of either Vista or XP.
 
SuperSubZero said:
My c:\windows is 13GB. The two Program Files directories are about 2GB total.
Click to expand...
Patches, caching, installing extras and other installations will inflate that number quickly. But right after install the whole Vista Ultimate installation size, minus swap and hibernation files, is around 8GB.

My test system (30 day Vista Ultimate x64 :(, I only have a Vista Business key and i'm trying to see if Vista is worthwhile for my HTPC) Windows folder is currently 13.7GB after installing a *lot* of software, grabbing all the extras and installing several optional components including the subsystem for UNIX-based applications.
 
I doubt I've downloaded that many gigs in updates. I also haven't installed that many applications, unless you think I have several gigs of install logs or something.

No, c:\windows was 13GB after I installed Vista x64 Ultimate and the Japanese MUI. The size has not changed much since I simply haven't installed all that much.
 
SuperSubZero said:
No, c:\windows was 13GB after I installed Vista x64 Ultimate and the Japanese MUI. The size has not changed much since I simply haven't installed all that much.
Click to expand...
Doubtful. I checked the size of the install (which I also did during Beta 2) when it was finished, so I have absolute certainty. You're guessing.
 
jstenuf said:
I am sorry to jump the thread and my question is not flame bait. I am just trying to obtain some information on Creative drivers and Vista. I noticed in your sig that you are using a Creative sound card. I have a X-Fi Fatal1ty Extreme Gamer and I want to install Vista 64, but the news on the web about Creative drivers is so full of negative emotion and misinformation that I am having difficulty making an informed decision. My question is: what process did you use to install the drives for you sound card? Did you simply use Creative’s drivers or did you have to use a workaround. Any help would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
I have an X-Fi and I run Windows Vista x64 without any problems. The drivers have never crashed on me, and I haven't experienced a single bug. I haven't been doing much PC gaming recently, however, since I don't like installing root kits and spyware on my computer. :rolleyes:
 
iZero said:
I have an X-Fi and I run Windows Vista x64 without any problems. The drivers have never crashed on me, and I haven't experienced a single bug. I haven't been doing much PC gaming recently, however, since I don't like installing root kits and spyware on my computer. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Thank you. It is appreciated.
 
Canadian in Berlin said:
Server infrastructure course lesson 1
-Gamer
- I'M not gaming on a virtual machine.
- It's gonna be on a different HD
- Wife also will have it soon, my mom switched a few months ago and I walked her through it by phone. :)
Click to expand...

dual boot? granted I game less since I have made the switch so if your wife or gf says you play too much you might want to switch lol.
 
With that rig I see no reason to not go with Vista and 4gigs of ram even for gaming (unless you are really at a budget cap already). Most of what I have read points toward Vista drivers maturing and the performance hit now being minimal between Vista and XP in the majority of titles. This is one of the more recent articles I read on the issue:
http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/amd_nvidia_windows_vista_driver_performance_update/

Some others out there but I can't remember where they were from to track them down.

For the record I have used Vista since November and other than a few early bumps in the road I have enjoyed the transition.
 
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