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Hi!
I'd like to ask which 24" *VA monitors has the least "black crush" effect. And don't tell me, they are all the same. They are not
Samsung 245T? Eizo S2431WH?
Thanks
Black crush is built in *VA technology.
It cannot be corrected with calibration.
Nobody will tell you which model has the least problem because they are the same.
If you don't believe that - it's your problem.
Hi!
I'd like to ask which 24" *VA monitors has the least "black crush" effect. And don't tell me, they are all the same. They are not
Samsung 245T? Eizo S2431WH?
Thanks
Black crush is built in *VA technology.
It cannot be corrected with calibration.
Nobody will tell you which model has the least problem because they are the same.
If you don't believe that - it's your problem.
I think we may each be assuming different definitions for the term "black crush."
The idea here is that multiple inputs map to the same color, namely black. E.g. RGB (0,0,0) and RGB(1,1,1) may both appear to be the same "shade" of black if there is "black crush."
With calibration, the video card lookup table is modified. The result is that a program that requests RGB(1,1,1) (e.g. Photoshop) may actually cause RGB(5,5,5) to be sent to the display. That's because the video card lookup table first translates RGB(1,1,1) to RGB(5,5,5). The result is that this "shade" of black is clearly brighter, and is thus no longer crushed.
Calibration in most monitors hooked up to a PC almost inevitably involves defining a new video card lookup table. The resulting table ensures that all colors are displayed at the appropriate brightness, even dark ones. Thus, calibration can fix crushed blacks by adjusting the video card lookup table.
Whether and to what degree a given *VA panel is prone to having crushed blacks in an uncalibrated state is another matter entirely, and I don't have the answer there.
Nobody will tell you which model has the least problem because they are the same.
I can say thet HP LP2465 (Samsung S-PVA) has far less noticable black crush then BenQ FP241W (?-MVA).
Because PVA screens are making it into more expensive levels of LCDs, sadly replacing IPS, I believe some manufacturers surely tried to do semething with this.
And my L245WP P-MVA(similar panel to BenQ but made a year later) is far less prone to black mudding than my 2407WFP S-PVA(Same era or later as the HP)... So allot of it has to do with how well the monitor manufacturers handled the panels and the many many revisions of said panel that fixed this or that.
Sure, you can "Calibrate" out the black crush effect, but it will only be removed where ever you put the sensor, and everything else gets washed out. Because you have to raise the gamma level so high to get rid of it, you lose the VA "advantage" of low black level. Even then, the sides of the screen will still be somewhat lighter than the center when viewed head on.
The gamma level of a VA display would be the only dicernable difference between panels, at the same levels they all display the same level of crush.
Exactly. Some people just don't understand that.
probably because in real life its not one tenth as bad as your photos make it out to be. From the way its heralded as this massive problem you'd think the whole screen was washed out to the point of being useless.
Thanks for that. I can ignore it in normal use so it's fine. Cheers
Those where the "inherited features" of the *VA would be a problem, is also those who would notice the difference between *VA and TN. Those features would be a problem for them.
Those where the "inherited features" of the *VA wouldn't matter could in many cases save themselves some money and get a TN instead, since chances are that the differences between TN and *VA wouldn't matter either. They might even enjoy the benifits of the TN's for gaming and such with low input lag and faster response time.
Hi!
I'd like to ask which 24" *VA monitors has the least "black crush" effect. And don't tell me, they are all the same. They are not
Samsung 245T? Eizo S2431WH?
Thanks
People, please try to stay close to my original question. If you can't answer it, then just don't.
http://www.eizo.com/products/lcd/sx2461w/index.asp12-Bit Gamma, 16-Bit Internal Processing
Comes quipped with EIZOs latest integrated circuit which has a 12-bit look-up table with a color palette of 68 billion colors from which the most appropriate 16.7 million (8-bits) are displayed. It also features 16-bit internal processing for smooth display of grayscale tones, especially in dark areas of an image which typically are difficult for LCD monitors to display without banding
That sound like being out of my price range And they have wide gamut, which I don't want.
I definitly should visit the Eizo shop here in city, so I can test some of their monitors myself AFAIK this is the only company here which has this kind of establishment. At least Eizo does not shun Europe
A price premium, but for many its worth investing a bit on a screen since they usually change the screen last.
I think its better to see for yourself as well if you have the oportunity. Make sure you have found a test picture online which contains much black level detail, since its often hard to check for such in stores. Have one on a USB stick as well, then you'll be safe. Better to examine this now then later.
Also way overblown. Except when taking a picture with low shutter speed, lag and response time are (subjectively) identical between my TN Samsung 205BW and my VA LG L246WP. I notice no difference playing Oblivion on either screen, and it's my most demanding game.
The Eizo and the Samsung you mentioned uses the same panel. If you wish to look at the Eizo Flexscans, the SX2461W would be the better alternative regarding black crush. It has 12-bit gamma correction, which should improve the greyscale stepping further.
The ultimate *VA would be the CG241W which features hardware calibration (monitor LUT calibration). Here you can calibrate without the common losses one can find when doing a GFX LUT calibration like fewer levels per RGB etc.
No,
You are correct. All VA monitors are not the same. It is not a panel quality, it is a calibration quality.
I have found that the monitor that I've owned with the worst dark details before calibration, has the best dark details after (Westinghouse L2410NM).
I would look at the Samsung 245T. At least it has enough "in monitor" controls that you can counteract black crush within the monitor. It uses Samsung's newest S-PVA panel.
For computer use it would be best if you picked up calibration hardware and software though.
Regards,
10e
For those who likes to chew this BS chewing gum of "counteracting black crush on *VA": print this photo, stick it on the wall in front of you and from now on look at it every time before posting BS to mislead inexperienced people.
Let's not mistake gamma shift and black crush.
I found the 245T to suffer from gamma shift like any other VA monitor (where dark details show up from the sides, but not the front) but not black crush so much. And with the built in OSD controls the gamma can be suitably adjusted without use of colorimeter (which is of course preferred for better color accuracy).
These are different animals, though under calibration it can be a problem where dark colors are re-calibrated to be darker which can make this a big problem. But not all MVA/PVA suffer from black crush. As Biges said that is his question.
Knowing the monitor that Biges tried (FP241W) I know what he speaks, because I've lost a lot of patience with my FP241VW over the past little while and a lot of it is related to bad black crush on the dark colors that I am unable to calibrate, but with the Westinghouse L2410NM (CMO panel, S-MVA) I was able to calibrate very well and get satisfactory results.
This is not a S-IPS vs. MVA thread. Biges is in the C.R. and does not have direct access to an LCD2490 (which he has mentioned) so all he could get is the LCD2690 right now, so he is reviewing other options.
Regards,
10e
You have an excellent overview
I come co conclusion that 2690 is not suited for me, to get over-saturated colors (in non-colored applications) and humming power source for the price of 1875$? Too expensive. (Yes, LCDs ARE expensive in Europe.)
So either I'll have to finally choose a *VA monitor, or I'll have to wait till maybe new IPS appears here. It I could test even a ... a... TN. Uh. Or I can still consider an option of getting 2490 from the USA, but that would need a seller with 0 dead points guarantee.
Never the less, I think the "black crush" and the "gamma shift" are related, aren't they?
To an extent they can be, but the difference is that some monitors that are not VA type panels have poor calibration out of the factory and can show black crush without gamma shift. They can also show color shifting and make dark details appear a different color than gray. This mostly happens with TN panels, but some S-IPS panels need calibration to enhance dark level details.
The BenQ G2400W I have is very good with dark details, and while it has relatively poor viewing angles (though good for a TN) I can use it with various consoles at "full range" without resetting black levels to compensate for crushed blacks.
For example my Dell 2005FPW S-IPS has a bit of dark detail loss which can be improved using nVidia controls. My LCD2690 has excellent dark level details without calibration, and grays are very neutral, but again, this is because it has solid out-of-factory color settings. Calibration does not affect the greys that much, but helps other colors become fabulously close.
The FP241VW is ok with Windows over DVI, but subpar with HDMI, VGA, and component. When calibrated, anything below R,G,B, 8,8,8 starts to disappear. The Westinghouse was the exact opposite, where (after calibration) dark details sprung to life within Windows, and grey was fairly neutral with a slight touch of red.
Additionally, some H-IPS monitors from Planar and Doublesight (same panel without polarizer as 2690) are not as accurate with darks due to different LUT and calibration out of the box.
Many monitors have a problem with dark details simply because they will start having color shift issues when the pixels try to display a gray, and sometimes they will show a blue or red color shift to the darks, and that is another issue.
The LG L246WP is the same panel as the FP241VW, but I didn't find a huge amount of dark detail loss with this monitor, maybe due to better calibration from LG. Although, others on this forum have said this can be a slight problem, but the common complaint with this screen has been "blue cast" in blacks.
I know that LCDs are a king's ransom in Europe. Here in Canada I was able to get the LCD2690 + SVII-KIT (bought separately) for less than 1400.00 before taxes. It's a relative bargain compared to some Eizos which can be much more expensive here. Too bad you are not able to source an LCD2490. It is an excellent monitor as well and well worth the price.
I don't know how easy it would be for you to get the Hazro 24" or 26" monitors. They should be quite good, even though they lack HDCP. Reviews from both sites and users here have been better than average.
Regards,
10e
Tamlin_WSGF: "The CG241W should be more then capable of getting full 0-255 greyscale. Since its S-PVA it still will have image shifts though, so thats to be expected."
I see it's hard to accomodate it that grayscale pallets and real images are different things. Lack of practice.
Friends, whatever grayscale it's capable of, it has "a loss of shadow detail in dark scenes when viewed directly from the center" which is black crush in other words.
And will have it for lifetime unless they change the panel technology.
Please pay attention to what vick1000 wrote: "Sure, you can "Calibrate" out the black crush effect, but it will only be removed where ever you put the sensor, and everything else gets washed out. Because you have to raise the gamma level so high to get rid of it, you lose the VA "advantage" of low black level. Even then, the sides of the screen will still be somewhat lighter than the center when viewed head on.
The gamma level of a VA display would be the only dicernable difference between panels, at the same levels they all display the same level of crush"
That's the answer for the question of this thread.
As 10e said: "Let's not mistake gamma shift and black crush.". This is what you are doing now. The greyscale tests are made to check for the tonal response. "Real images" won't give you such control.
That you will have a black crush effect anyway, we agree upon, but thats caused by the gamma shifts and it only appears like black have been crushed. Test any screen you like with a picture containing much black level detail, move the gamma slider up and down in your GFX control panel and you'll see the gamma shift effect on any screen. This is what you see and it looks like black crush, but its not nessesarily so.
If you read again the post from ToastyX when he reviewed a newer S-PVA panel type, you'll see that there have been a change of pixel structure as well, which can explain why the newer types have less crush at center (though they still have gamma shifts that gives a black crush effect):
http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1031371458&postcount=58
So in conclution to the OP:
You were correct using "" in the title talking about "black crush effect". In some cases its more an effect then actual black crush. Not all the VA's are similar, since they don't all have the same pixel structure. All of them do have gamma shifts which can give impression of black crush anyway, but you can get S-PVA panels which displays a full greyscale without actual black crush. The shifts will still be there though.