White House Uses Chain Mail to Counter Critics

Also what fucking freedoms are you giving up exactly? I hear this line dropped all the time.

I don't think a 3% tax increase on the top 1% constitutes giving up freedoms.

Oh and no one is talking about "socialized medicine" what they want is a non profit publicly funded insurance plan to compete with the private sector. That isn't exactly British style national health.
 
xveganx said:
You say this as if poor people don't work. That is total bullshit.

Most poor people I know work 10-15 hours a day just to scrape by.

The rich would not exist without the working class, they can pay a little more every once in a while.
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The rich are the ones that create jobs, not Obama.

If you take more money from the rich, they are less inclinded to start a business and hire people.

Don't talk about making rich people pay more if you don't understand simple economics
 
k1pp3r said:
The rich are the ones that create jobs, not Obama.

If you take more money from the rich, they are less inclinded to start a business and hire people.

Don't talk about making rich people pay more if you don't understand simple economics
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This just isn't true, the top 1% isn't made up of small business owners. Small business owners make the most jobs in this country and they are not in the top 1% of income earners.

You give a multi-billion dollar corporation huge tax breaks, they don't go out and create more jobs for U.S. workers. They open another factory in China to exploit poor people for cheap labor.
 
k1pp3r said:
If you have only heard, then please don't comment, our current system has been perfectly fine for me and most Americans. But the small groups make the most noise.
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Half the crap I've read in this thread didn't bother me, because I can rationalize that many of the people making the accusations are naive or ignorant. But, you sir have sunk to an ultimate low.

Where do you get your facts and figures to proclaim that, "our current system has been perfectly fine for me and most Americans. But the small groups make the most noise."

I've had a number of employers shaft me and all employees, minus managers, on health benefits. It was always, 'we'll be getting it soon'.

Most insurance premiums and co/pays go up 20-30% a year, way ahead of inflation or wage increases.

I have family who have various different ailments--some genetic others developed-- some life-threatening and they have all been denied coverage for various procedures. More often than not, their "Netowrk" doctors recommend morepharmaceuticals than actual diagnosing or dealing with the problem. Most are only interested in treating a sympton, teach a man to fish and all that. The rest generally elect to do major surgeries, mainly because it pays off bigger.

My mom actualy has a local physician, which is in here "network" who will flat out not treat her arthritis. Even though my grandmother and most of her relatives have had it and my mom constantly deals with bone crippling pain in her hands. In another instance, a doctor who worked on her feet actually circumvented the Insurance companies twice because they were going to deny procedures that allowed for a quicker recovery time--so she could get back to work..

That's barley half the horrior stories I know, personally, about Americans.

And you have the audacity to speak on these people's behalfs..And the gaul to trivialize these partiots well-being..
:mad:



As to the spam mails, I say, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
 
xveganx said:
This just isn't true, the top 1% isn't made up of small business owners. Small business owners make the most jobs in this country and they are not in the top 1% of income earners.

You give a multi-billion dollar corporation huge tax breaks, they don't go out and create more jobs for U.S. workers. They open another factory in China to exploit poor people for cheap labor.
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Are you that ignorant? You really think the top 1% only have financial interest in only large business?

Do you know how many people i have financied through Microsoft Financing that has created numerous jobs for people?

It all filters down one way or another, when you are smart enough to see it or not
 
dot_Zen said:
.

And you have the audacity to speak on these people's behalfs..And the gaul to trivialize these partiots well-being..
:mad:
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Out of 300 MILLION Americans, 40 Million are not insured, your in the minority if you don't have coverage.

Now, i'm not saying our system is perfect, but the Obama administrator is not handling the issue correctly, i have said this before, the system has problems, but you can't fix them by dumping billions into the problems you want to dissapear.

You have to fix the issues at their roots, FDA needs to be overhauld, tort reform and such,

Obama's plan will just put us further in debt,
 
k1pp3r said:
Out of 300 MILLION Americans, 40 Million are not insured, your in the minority if you don't have coverage.

Now, i'm not saying our system is perfect, but the Obama administrator is not handling the issue correctly, i have said this before, the system has problems, but you can't fix them by dumping billions into the problems you want to dissapear.

You have to fix the issues at their roots, FDA needs to be overhauld, tort reform and such,

Obama's plan will just put us further in debt,
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k1pp3r said:
our current system has been perfectly fine for me and most Americans. But the small groups make the most noise."
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Do what!? Wanna try that again?

And when did I say I don't have insurance? I'm not one of those "40 million" who you seem to think aren't wrothy of their own well being. Beside the point, you seemed to have missed the fact that a precieved(there's no such thing as a "Free Market" anywhere in the world, well, maybe the black market) 99.9% private market handles the other 540million Americans just "fine". Who's delusional?
 
I'll eagerly await an email from the President stating that I can reserve a prime piece of land and fulfill my patriotic duty in exchange for a modest sized deposit.

Nevermind the fact that the land is located in Nigeria.
 
xveganx said:
Also what fucking freedoms are you giving up exactly? I hear this line dropped all the time.

I don't think a 3% tax increase on the top 1% constitutes giving up freedoms.

Oh and no one is talking about "socialized medicine" what they want is a non profit publicly funded insurance plan to compete with the private sector. That isn't exactly British style national health.
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Please stop it... Your making too much sense!
 
Obama already said he would not sign a bill that wasn't deficit neutral. All you people whining about the debt need to wake up. It was Bush who spent tons of money when it wasn't necessary not Obama. Pretty much every single respected economist has said that you can't tighten the belt on spending in the middle a recession, especially not one as bad as ours.

That being said I too am concerned with the deficit. I think a lot of programs have become bloated and wasteful and should be reformed. That doesn't mean that we need to get rid of them. We just need to streamline them and get the cobwebs out.

Sure Social Security has some problems, but it is a great program that needs a little bit of modernizing. Can you imagine what would have happened if we privatized Social Security?

When the economy tanked it would be gone, completely.

Also we spend more on defense than all the other industrialized nations combined, and can't even supply our troops with proper armor in war time. Our priorities are completely out of whack.
 
xveganx said:
Obama already said he would not sign a bill that wasn't deficit neutral.
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That just means he supports raising taxes on somebody to cover the cost of this. It doesn't mean the bill is free. And if you think that you can "tax the rich and it won't affect me" you need to a few more econ classes.
 
Social Security can be fixed without changing the system. We just need to get rid of the upper limit on where you keep paying into the system (currently somewhere around $100k) and do some sort of means test that reduces social security payments to those people that have over a certain limit in assetts ($5 million?). Those two things and social security is on solid ground again.

Medicare is the hard one.
 
Old_Way said:
Social Security can be fixed without changing the system. We just need to get rid of the upper limit on where you keep paying into the system (currently somewhere around $100k) and do some sort of means test that reduces social security payments to those people that have over a certain limit in assetts ($5 million?). Those two things and social security is on solid ground again.

Medicare is the hard one.
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I agree with that.
 
Old_Way said:
Social Security can be fixed without changing the system. We just need to get rid of the upper limit on where you keep paying into the system (currently somewhere around $100k) and do some sort of means test that reduces social security payments to those people that have over a certain limit in assetts ($5 million?). Those two things and social security is on solid ground again.

Medicare is the hard one.
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Yeah, destroy part of the incentive for people to start a company and create jobs.
 
vengence said:
That just means he supports raising taxes on somebody to cover the cost of this. It doesn't mean the bill is free. And if you think that you can "tax the rich and it won't affect me" you need to a few more econ classes.
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yup

people are being brainwashed into thinking that successful people don't give their fair share which is complete and utter bullshit (and I'm single, low low low middle class btw). The ONLY fair system is a flat tax across the board. Anything else is straight up discrimination.

People shouldn't be taxed more because they're ambitious and actually strive to do something with their lives. I know many people... poor and wealthy alike... and I can honestly say that in my own experience, those that aren't all that well off tend to have a chip on their shoulder and/or just lack motivation to improve their condition (and are usually all for redistribution of wealth). There is no such thing as a free lunch... if anyone thinks that taking more money from the people funneling it into our economy is going to help is not looking at the bigger picture.

If you put more burden on those that create jobs, you're only going to see increased prices on goods and services or more layoffs to make up for the lost revenue. You read about it every day in the news paper. It has nothing to do with being greedy... businesses aren't charity's.

Nobody is saying that our system is perfect, but handing control over to the government is an insane proposition. There are laws to protect investors and the general public from shady business deals... but when it comes to politics, it's called pork and donations. As for SS, I'll believe it when I see it (same with heath care reform)... my economics teachers always told us to start investing in our retirement plans as soon as possible because social security is NOT going to be there for us when we retire (which I've paid a shit load on money into over my working lifetime btw). So if SS were private, it wouldn't of mattered much anyway.

Like I've said before... if they (our politicians in general) can fix SS, medicaid and medicare, I'd be a hell of a lot more likely to consider letting them try a national social health care system, but they've proven time and time again that they cannot be trusted to do the right thing (or no more so than bernie madoff and all of his thugs). The LAST thing we need is another social system at the moment (especially one that large). Hell, look at all the waste and hidden pork in the obama and bush stimulus bills. These are the same people you want to decide the fate of our insurance industry?
 
Obama isn't proposing a "national health care system". Maybe you should learn how to read.
 
ummm... yes, he is lol (what the hell would you call it?). There will still be private insurance for a few years until they cannot afford to stay a float any longer. Why would I keep paying for private insurance (which isn't cheap) when I'm getting it through the government and paying for that anyway?
 
If I get any bullshit emails from anyone, including the government, they go on my blocked senders list.
 
dr.stevil said:
yup

people are being brainwashed into thinking that successful people don't give their fair share which is complete and utter bullshit (and I'm single, low low low middle class btw). The ONLY fair system is a flat tax across the board. Anything else is straight up discrimination.

People shouldn't be taxed more because they're ambitious and actually strive to do something with their lives. I know many people... poor and wealthy alike... and I can honestly say that in my own experience, those that aren't all that well off tend to have a chip on their shoulder and/or just lack motivation to improve their condition (and are usually all for redistribution of wealth). There is no such thing as a free lunch... if anyone thinks that taking more money from the people funneling it into our economy is going to help is not looking at the bigger picture.

If you put more burden on those that create jobs, you're only going to see increased prices on goods and services or more layoffs to make up for the lost revenue. You read about it every day in the news paper. It has nothing to do with being greedy... businesses aren't charity's.

Nobody is saying that our system is perfect, but handing control over to the government is an insane proposition. There are laws to protect investors and the general public from shady business deals... but when it comes to politics, it's called pork and donations. As for SS, I'll believe it when I see it (same with heath care reform)... my economics teachers always told us to start investing in our retirement plans as soon as possible because social security is NOT going to be there for us when we retire (which I've paid a shit load on money into over my working lifetime btw). So if SS were private, it wouldn't of mattered much anyway.

Like I've said before... if they (our politicians in general) can fix SS, medicaid and medicare, I'd be a hell of a lot more likely to consider letting them try a national social health care system, but they've proven time and time again that they cannot be trusted to do the right thing (or no more so than bernie madoff and all of his thugs). The LAST thing we need is another social system at the moment (especially one that large). Hell, look at all the waste and hidden pork in the obama and bush stimulus bills. These are the same people you want to decide the fate of our insurance industry?
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Amen brother! Let them prove they can fix something before we let them try to fix everything. I am also low low low middle class. I work for a small company and my health care copay has been $25 for the last 10 years. There is "free" health care, it is called the VA. If you can't support yourself, do something for your country and they will help you. No freebies people. My big concern is that I am going to pay to take care of people only after they haven't been willing to take care of themselves. People who don't look at their health as a priority. How many of these people without health care have cable? cell phones? broadband? car payments? If you don't prioritize your health over your luxuries I don't want to pay more so you can have your cake and eat it too... literally.
 
xveganx said:
Gestapo tactics?

That is an insult to the 6 million Jews and the other 6 million people systematically targeted and killed in the holocaust.

Turn of Limbaugh its rotting your brain.
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No, it's not, but Obamanation, and the rest of the looney lefts "plan" is an insult to Americans that work and choose to pay for their own health insurance.

And next time you think about puking up some drivel assuming something about someone, for instance me watching Limbaugh, think before you projectile vomit all over the internet, for your information, I don't watch TV, much less Limbaugh.
 
Helicopter said:
No, it's not, but Obamanation, and the rest of the looney lefts "plan" is an insult to Americans that work and choose to pay for their own health insurance.

And next time you think about puking up some drivel assuming something about someone, for instance me watching Limbaugh, think before you projectile vomit all over the internet, for your information, I don't watch TV, much less Limbaugh.
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Well you obviously don't listen or watch Limbaugh because he isn't even on TV lol.

You're the one making references to Nazi Germany in regards to health care reform. I would say that makes you loony.

Oh and according to Godwins Law, you already lost this debate. ;)
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_be9iNXeqM8

You have got to watch the spin the idiot put on these so called myths about the health care bill.

The first one is amazing....She doesn't even answer the question, she just says ...you will still be in charge of your bank account. This is such a Fing scam. Im pray this doesnt pass. Tort reform is what we need.
 
Old_Way said:
Texas has tort reform. Since enactment the number of medical court cases has gone down by half, there are now more practicing doctors and the cost of malpractice insurance has dropped a lot.

Tort reform helps, but the cost of new equipment, drugs and insurance still keeps going up way too fast. Just like everywhere else, companies in Texas are still cutting out insurance for their employees or raising deductibles to very high rates in order to control spiraling costs. Things do need to change.
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A single payer system is only going to change it, it isn't going to fix anything. The best hope is tort reform, and then just enough regulations in place to keep people honest, and then let competition, and the market bring prices down.
 
xveganx said:
You're the one making references to Nazi Germany in regards to health care reform. I would say that makes you loony.

Oh and according to Godwins Law, you already lost this debate. ;)
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According to basic comprehension you have lost since I am not referencing Nazi Germany in regards health care reform.
 
xveganx said:
So just to get this straight, you want to abolish Medicare and Social Security?
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Eventually yes, we need to take care of our own people through charity or state run institutions without federal without government intervention. Its something us as a progressive society should strive for. But until then we need tort reform. And medicare is whats caused the skyrocketing price of medicine.

Sucks you think the government is the answer. I think all government should go away accept for defense.
 
Righty said:
Eventually yes, we need to take care of our own people through charity or state run institutions without federal without government intervention. Its something us as a progressive society should strive for. But until then we need tort reform. And medicare is whats caused the skyrocketing price of medicine.

Sucks you think the government is the answer. I think all government should go away accept for defense.
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Yip, The governments job is to provide an enviroment for the citizens of this country to have opportunity to prosper, or fail, not to give us prosperity, or failure. Once people become reliant on the fed for something, it is almost impossible to get off it, and with the federal government creeping further, and further into our lives everyday, eventually we will all depend on it for everything, and our republic will cease to exist.
 
1 - Get informed, read the bill yourself. Question everything, it doesn't matter what side says it or you your favorite radio or tv personality is. Question it, don't believe them, prove what they say to be true or false.

2 - Anything government does is twice as slow and 10 times more expensive. Until Washington can prove otherwise, any plan run by them (doesn't matter the party) is going to cost us all even if they just give more subsidies to people to purchase insurance or if it is morally correct. What good is giving everybody health care if there is no money to pay for it?

3 - We have the internet so we can all be informed on many things. So don't be a sheep and listen to propaganda without checking it out, even if it comes from the WH.

4 - Washington is a very corrupt place. Investigate Obamas advisers and Czars, what connections do they have that got them the job? You think Cheney's connections to the military contractors and Bush's connections to Oil were bad. Well you haven't seen anything yet.

Question - Question - Question, and quit spewing your idiotic ideas about how everybody is getting screwed just because some douche bag from tv said so.
 
Funny how we're now debating the health care bill in place of the merits of sending chain mail.

Even if this bill is magically going to solve all the problems of all the people while not costing more money and not failing down the road like medicaid (lol), it doesn't excuse the tactic.

Once again, we've fallen into a 'its ok, we have good intentions' defense. Intent doesn't make a goddamn difference.
 
Righty said:
Eventually yes, we need to take care of our own people through charity or state run institutions without federal without government intervention. Its something us as a progressive society should strive for. But until then we need tort reform. And medicare is whats caused the skyrocketing price of medicine.

Sucks you think the government is the answer. I think all government should go away accept for defense.
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I actually don't trust the government farther than I can throw them. The problem is, I trust corporations even less.
 
Righty said:
Eventually yes, we need to take care of our own people through charity or state run institutions without federal without government intervention. Its something us as a progressive society should strive for. But until then we need tort reform. And medicare is whats caused the skyrocketing price of medicine.

Sucks you think the government is the answer. I think all government should go away accept for defense.
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I am not trying to start a fight here I promise. But I would like to add that the idea of abolishing medicare and social security, is very far outside of the mainstream. I am not saying that as bad thing, I only bring it up to point out that this idea that the very angry people at town halls screaming about control from the government are not representative of mainstream thought. I bring this up not to say if its right or wrong, I simply think that is important to point out.

The mainstream may be somewhat nervous about a public health care option, but I think its pretty hard to say the mainstream absolutely opposes it or supports it. Like most issues they are unsure. If it is effective and works well, they will praise as if they were die hard supporters and if it is a disaster they will act as if they opposed it all along. In this country we have to accept the reality that there is a left and right, and most people in between are just fence riders. When Bush seemed great they loved him, when he seemed horrible they opposed him. I am a total lefty and I will be the first to admit it, I have respect for both right and left because they actually take a passionate position on the issues.
 
xveganx said:
The mainstream may be somewhat nervous about a public health care option, but I think its pretty hard to say the mainstream absolutely opposes it or supports it.
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Once people start seeing some of the provisions of the bill they run screaming and want nothing to do with it.


If it is effective and works well, they will praise as if they were die hard supporters and if it is a disaster they will act as if they opposed it all along.
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Over a majority are against going there, why try to ram it through?
 
gdonovan said:
Once people start seeing some of the provisions of the bill they run screaming and want nothing to do with it.




Over a majority are against going there, why try to ram it through?
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I actually don't believe that's true. Most polls show people supporting a public option of some kind. The only poll that does not is a Rasmussen poll and those are historically right leaning.

That being said, I still think people are nervous to what exactly the "public option" will end up being.

There are some facts that need to be accepted and debated on their merits, such as adding a minute tax on the top 1%. And then there is shit that has just been completely made up to scare people like the "death panels".

Again on the taxation part of this, the proposals I have seen are a 1-2% tax on people making $500,000 a year or more, and a 1-3% tax on people making $1,000,000 a year or more. And again, that tax hike would only count for the actual income over that set mark.
So, if you made $550,000 per year only $50,000 would be taxed at that higher rate. I do not think that is unreasonable.

I also think taxing certain items like Soda and Candy that are known to lead to diabetes and other ailments is not a bad idea. A small tax (a few cents on the dollar) of these already low cost items would go a long way to helping to pay for this.

I also think that people who are using this public insurance plan should have to pay at least something for it. Private insurance is so expensive because everyone is trying to make a buck on top of the cost. If people could get non profit insurance, that only cost as much as it actually cost to administer the service that would go a long way to saving cost.

The fact is sick people going to emergency rooms for care costs us hundreds of BILLIONS already. It is a well known fact that preventative care is MUCH cheaper than emergency care.
 
xveganx said:
There are some facts that need to be accepted and debated on their merits, such as adding a minute tax on the top 1%. And then there is shit that has just been completely made up to scare people like the "death panels".
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Well I would say the term "death panel" is made up, but a public health care system would have an approval panel/commitee that would approve/decline life extending procedures. All insurance programs have the same thing, the government option would be no different.
 
Ravenous said:
Well I would say the term "death panel" is made up, but a public health care system would have an approval panel/commitee that would approve/decline life extending procedures. All insurance programs have the same thing, the government option would be no different.
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They have said pretty clearly that decisions will be made between you and your doctor.

The only difference will be how procedures are reimbursed. So that doctors aren't motivated to do procedures they are not confident about just to get paid.
 
xveganx said:
I also think taxing certain items like Soda and Candy that are known to lead to diabetes and other ailments is not a bad idea. A small tax (a few cents on the dollar) of these already low cost items would go a long way to helping to pay for this.
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Go all the way and ban them then.

Freedom is a funny thing, it also inculdes the freedom to make mistakes.

It is a well known fact that preventative care is MUCH cheaper than emergency care.
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B.S.

This has already been disproven, emergancy care is just that EMERGANCY.

Preventative care would not have prevented me from getting a piece of steel in one eye, or stopped me from getting the flu (even though I practice VERY safe hygine working in a healthcare facility) or any other of a dozen different problems I have had over the years.

Would preventative care stopped me from getting arthritis?

Nope, not a wit.
 
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