what do you mean by huge market??? are you saying many people own agp machines?? that doesn't prove agp should still be alive. Sure many users have AGP still but the demand for many agp users is very lowwwwwwwww. if you want the best then you must upgrade.......Also if you buy a low end direct x 10 agp video card for vista.....then i think thats just a waste of money right there. first off all you have to purchase vista to utilize dx10 also that ram on a low end video card will not be up to par to play any dx10 games. all in all its stupid to design a agp card for dx10. So stop complaining either upgrade or just shut up seriously. its getting very annoying about agp users complaining about their precious agp cards withering and dying.
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Will there be Direct X 10 AGP cards?
- Thread starter Spare-Flair
- Start date
what do you mean by huge market??? are you saying many people own agp machines?? that doesn't prove agp should still be alive. Sure many users have AGP still but the demand for many agp users is very lowwwwwwwww. if you want the best then you must upgrade.......Also if you buy a low end direct x 10 agp video card for vista.....then i think thats just a waste of money right there. first off all you have to purchase vista to utilize dx10 also that ram on a low end video card will not be up to par to play any dx10 games. all in all its stupid to design a agp card for dx10. So stop complaining either upgrade or just shut up seriously. its getting very annoying about agp users complaining about their precious agp cards withering and dying.
Yes and no. If gaming, I'd agree, but not everyone games. The G8x appear to be much better at PureVideo offload of CPU to GPU than the G7x. So there could be some point to G8x AGP in non-high-end HTPCs.
i guess i agree with that for hdcp, but thats really the only reason. other then that its pointless.
Godofdestrcution
Gawd
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If PCIE is $600 right now, a AGP DX10 card would be $1000.
Why drag the AGP market again? I personally hope that both nvidia and ATI ends the making of AGP cards and just move past it!
You know whats funny about all of this...You PCI-E guys are a fucking minority in the computer world and somehow think you own the market...
There will be DX10 cards for AGP mark my words microsoft wants everyone and thier sister to assimilate to Vista and its not outside of microsofts realm to start making sweetheart deals with different companies to reel in that older AGP market.
Think about how many copies of vista would sell if us AGP guys had the opportunity to play DX10 games without dropping a fortune on a new computer.
And just because you can afford a nice video card does not mean you can afford to upgrade your whole damn computer that needs to be killed right there too damn many people are saying that... If a DX10 card is $400 for AGP tell me how i can afford to upgrade my system to PCI-E and still keep DX10 support if $400 is all i have to spend...
There will be DX10 cards for AGP mark my words microsoft wants everyone and thier sister to assimilate to Vista and its not outside of microsofts realm to start making sweetheart deals with different companies to reel in that older AGP market.
Think about how many copies of vista would sell if us AGP guys had the opportunity to play DX10 games without dropping a fortune on a new computer.
And just because you can afford a nice video card does not mean you can afford to upgrade your whole damn computer that needs to be killed right there too damn many people are saying that... If a DX10 card is $400 for AGP tell me how i can afford to upgrade my system to PCI-E and still keep DX10 support if $400 is all i have to spend...
defaultluser
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We are no-longer a "fucking minority." Practically every OEM PC shipped in the last two years has been based on PCIe, and only a very few buggy boards have supported both standards. Most important, ALL high-end systems shipped or built in the last two years have been based on PCIe, and right now the PCIe upgrade market is flourishing.
PCIe also gives you more flexibility, and a better deal over the lifetime of your motherboard:
I paid $85 for my PCIe motherboard, giving me an excellent deal on my first video card purchase. At the time, I could have upgraded to a 7800 GS AGP for $350, but instead I bought the motherboard and the $299 7900 GT - MUCH faster, and about then same price. I also sold my old AGP system, making this a worthwhile upgrade.
PCIe now gives me upgrade options that AGP owners can only dream of, without the (currently $40-50) AGP tax. You think the x1950 Pro is fast? It's a mainstream performance card, nothing more, and that's about as fast as AGP is going to get.
With every passing generation, more owners of AGP systems are starting to notice their processor holding them back, and most of the folks in the market for high-end performance have already upgraded. What is left are stragglers who can't afford a system upgrade, and that means the target price of any new AGP cards will have to be low, or they won't sell. That means any new AGP cards produced will be, at-most, mid-range 8600s.
You're just pissed-off because you KNOW the 7800 GS was THE LAST official $300+ AGP graphics card.
Actually dipshit the majority of OEM computers made in the last 2 years had onboard video and many of those offer no graphics port whatsoever.
You are the minority you can ignore it all you want but fact is fact. On top of that there is now an X1950pro agp and also an X1950XT AGP 7800GS was not the last at all.
Look at it realistically 7800GS can be had now as low as $160 thats a hell of alot of performance for that kind of cash you tell me where someones going to be able to upgrade to PCI-E and get that kind of performance for under $200....
eh the majority of people buying computers buy pre-builds through a company from there local retail store. so dont say people will be out of vista. pci-e is the majority of video card owners now. read my post at the top of the page.
Once again there are far more coimputers out there with AGP and even no graphics port whatesoever than there are PCI-E its common sense...Pci-e is new compared to agp and PCI.
And the pre-built computers from retail stores just recently started using PCI-E as a majority there are still AGP OEM machines being sold and a rediculous number of machines being sold with nothing but onboard and old ass PCI.
You show me some numbers supporting your PCI-E as a majority stupidity then..Common sense AGP = may years of production PCI-E = couple years of production with OEM manufacturers just recently making it a standard in pre-built computers...
Just because more people here at [H] run PCI-E dont get confused thinking that means the rest of the world is the same.
FighterAce124
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A minority, possibly. I don't know. But I'm willing to bet that this 'minority' (I say such because I do not know if we are a minority or not) spends more than the majority. The majority of people are perfectly fine on integrated devices and such. The performance users are not. And it's pretty simple. PCI-E board = $50-100 PCI-E board Processor = $50-100 PCI-E Card that is some real power = $200-300. You can get an AM2 3800 X2 for $109, 7900GT for $200~ (8800GTS for $300, soon to be $250, if what I hear is correct (It may not be, never know)), and a large selection of AM2 boards for $50-75. So for $400 you can have most of a new system, and if you can get that much, sell your old one (or parts of it) to afford the remainder of what you need - namely RAM. You can move over much of the other hardware.
sigh your not getting it. by MAJORITY im saying that more people are in the market to buy pci-e cards then people who have agp systems. who the hell cares how many people have it. it all depends on how many people buy it. most people who build computers right now upgrade so they upgrade to pci-e because they want the new and best technology.people who still have agp systems just haven't upgraded or they are happy where they are.
Spare-Flair
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These statements are just very wrong. Most people buy their computers either from Dell or from their local big box electronics store. A lot of them probably still have computers that are 2-4 years old with AGP. There will be families with P4's, Athlon XP, and 939 A64 computers that are still very decentely fast for non-gaming but they will want to use Vista with the most features in the future.
Why do so many of you take something absolutely so irrelevant to yourself personally? If you have a PCI-E card, then this thread is not for you. What does it matter to you whether or not there are AGP cards in the market in the future? Does it cost you anything out of pocket? The companies that will be making them will probably be 3rd party lower-tier manufacturers using AGP bridges, etc. Not the big ones. This will not make your own PCI-E cards more expensive or cost you anything.
This is just as bad as people who post their problems and then other people who have completely non-related hardware come in and say "I have this and this and I am fine, just spend more $ and be like me".
It's pretty infantile if you ask me, I didn't realize there were so many PCI-E !!!!!!s/elitists out there. Nobody is insulting PCI-E, we all realize it's superiority. There is no need to be so defensive about it and so insulting toward AGP. Yes AGP was a substandard solution but it lasted 8 years through two generations. Average family-man, non-[H] consumer Joe probably upgrades his computer every 4 years. Meaning there are tons of AGP computers still out there and many people who might want to just upgrade the card versus the entire computer.
Weren't any of you young enough 8-9 years ago to be a poor high school or university student who couldn't afford to upgrade your computer that was still stuck with PCI and ISA slots only? Who wanted to play the latest games but couldn't afford a new computer to take advatage of 3D Accelerators that were AGP, etc.? In those days, took me forever to save up for a Diamond 3DFx Monster but it was still cheaper than buying a whole new computer. I'm betting there are a lot of kids out there just like that today who can't upgrade their parents computer which is still on AGP.
DarkLegacy
[H]ard|Gawd
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God I hope not either lol. Crysis should be the official Nail in the Coffin for anything that is AGP related. If not, I don't want to imagine how poorly it would run on it when compared to an PCI-E based config of the same card.
why buy a direct x 10 card for a low end machine??? like you said the athlon xp and p4 systems will still have agp. 939 can be upgraded without all the hassle of rebuilding. wouldnt all of the other hardware in the system bottleneck direct x 10 applications?? especially when running in vista. Also direct x 10 isnt really needed for any features in vista besides games,design,or modeling. so stop argueing that there should be agp cards for it well you damn well know that it wont run well with dx 10 games.
The collective IQ here at [H] is dropping... Stupid, stupid thread.
Yes, there will be agp dx10 parts. Will they be anything high end? I doubt it. The PCIE fanatics are missing the fact that a whole hell of a lot of computer shoppers aren't like us. They don't count their heart rate in hz and think in hexadecimal.
Just like you can right now buy a x1300 or 7300 with 512mbs of ram, you will be able to buy a dx10 part that will have the right feature sets to impress Joe Blow computer illiterate. Come on, how many times have we all been in a discussion with someone who thinks that their pci 9250 with 512megs of ram is better than a 7900 with 256? After all, the numbers are higher.
I seriously don't understand the slathering horde of PCIE fanatics. WTF people? Why does the interface matter so much? Did AGP rape your sister? AGP is going to have a long lingering period of decrepitude before it finally succumbs to the grave. Just if anyone [H]ere is using it another few months we get to point and laugh.
Yes, there will be agp dx10 parts. Will they be anything high end? I doubt it. The PCIE fanatics are missing the fact that a whole hell of a lot of computer shoppers aren't like us. They don't count their heart rate in hz and think in hexadecimal.
Just like you can right now buy a x1300 or 7300 with 512mbs of ram, you will be able to buy a dx10 part that will have the right feature sets to impress Joe Blow computer illiterate. Come on, how many times have we all been in a discussion with someone who thinks that their pci 9250 with 512megs of ram is better than a 7900 with 256? After all, the numbers are higher.
I seriously don't understand the slathering horde of PCIE fanatics. WTF people? Why does the interface matter so much? Did AGP rape your sister? AGP is going to have a long lingering period of decrepitude before it finally succumbs to the grave. Just if anyone [H]ere is using it another few months we get to point and laugh.
X1950XT is being released soon and the X1950Pro was released a month or 2 ago so obviously there is a demand for it.
FlyinBrian
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I think your the only one taking it personal. Computer enthusiast get questions like this every single day. People get furious because the computer they bought in 1989 isnt runing quake 4. You have many options to you that dont involve AGP yet you insist on it. If you have a SFF case then buy a SFF motherboard that supports either AMD athlon dual core or even better intel's conroe. You can get a SFF motherboard for under 100 dollars and up. You can upgrade on a budget. You just have to plan it out. Use the 200 dollars you were going to buy that agp card with and save til you can do a budget upgrade.
I didnt say there was a Large demand for it i just said there was a demand. Obviously enough for ATI to jump into the fray and compete with the 7800GS.
CleanSlate
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I'm sorry but this is a rather ignorant statement. AGP had alot of bandwidth and it can very easilly and will very easilly run DX10 cards.
~Adam
BullsEyeBob
2[H]4U
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CleanSlate
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.... What else is there? Power? Pfft. Plenty to to around in agp, considering most cards have an extra connector OR TWO with PCIE Anyway.
Cost of making motherboards higher with AGP (supposedly)...
Frankly, the only thing that could be stopping AGP from have a high end new generation card would be the necessity for the chips to be able to be compatible with both AGP and PCIE. This can be done on the chip or as Nvidia has done with the 6600 series, by an extra chip near the port.
However, considering the speed for the bridge chip (if it is trully necessary which I'm not completely sure it is) might have to be significantly ludicrous for the highest end cards we will most likely see ATI (x1950 agp anyone?), at the very least, create a mid to high-end version of their next card. Which will most likely significantly beat the X1950.
So, my educated guess is that you can all rest sound in your beds at night knowing that if the market is there then the product can most likely be easily made and shipped.
~Adam
Well there is one huge thing AGP lacks over PCI-E, Bi-directional Data flow wich is needed for SLI. AGP is old but not outdated yet there was still life left in it but the marketing geniuses at ATI and Nvidia decided to market PCI-E as the successor to the "dead" AGP. Anyone here saying AGP is dead or obsolete is pretty ignorant and fell right into the the marketing scheme believing they must have PCI-E.
AGP didnt die of old age folks it was killed by some clever marketing to sell some motherboards and video cards...Worst part is alot of you fell for it and actually believed the hype that AGP must die...
defaultluser
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You sure about that? The whole point of moving from AGP to PCIe was the decreased cost of implementation, so OEMs could offer a PCIe x16 upgrade slot, even on integrated systems. PCIe x16 slots have about the same routing complexity as a standard PCI slot, and these have been present on "integrated graphics motherboards" for years.
EXAMPLES OF LOW-END SYSTEMS WITH PCIe x16 SLOTS:
Dell C521 / E521: their lowest-end consumer model. Comes with integrated GeForce 6150LE graphics, and the following slots:
Expansion Slots
Even their low-end Intel systems (based on the G965) have the same slot configuration.
HP a1520e comes with a PCIe x16 slot, and I believe the a1510y does too (although they do not offer video upgrades on the 1510, and their specs are unclear).
Gateway DX420 doesn't even come with integrated graphics, that's probably left to their Emachines series. The graphics card is, obviously, PCIe x16.
Emachines 3604, their lowest-end model: Available PCI-Express® x16 slot, on ALL their models. Well, every machine has one so-far, so why break a good thing?
YOU are the one who has not been paying attention. In the last two years, OEMs have been taking advantage of PCIe to make consumer's dreams come true: now they can spend rock-bottom on a PC, and STILL get an upgradable platform. This is something AGP could NEVER offer, it was just too expensive.
MOST LOW-END BIG OEM DESKTOPS HAVE A PCIe x16 SLOT!
Card makers LOVE this level of support, and the standardization of the x16 slot, because not only can they abandon AGP graphics cards: they can abandon those damn PCI graphics cards. So quit your whining about the loss of AGP - this is good for everyone, not just you.
Very amusing, but not quite as ironic as you might think.
"Probably" and "is" are two very different terms.
PCIe is were this is all headed
BUT id trade it for a top end card on AGP just to get MY PCI SLOTS BACK!
whats the point of PCIe if none makes a damn thing for it and just so i can i have a top end vid card i lost 1/2 my PCI slots
gg guys gg
BUT id trade it for a top end card on AGP just to get MY PCI SLOTS BACK!
whats the point of PCIe if none makes a damn thing for it and just so i can i have a top end vid card i lost 1/2 my PCI slots
gg guys gg
CleanSlate
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I really noticed that... I went to Fry's and I was like... So if I wanted a pcie sound card I'd be fizuckled? Now that's IRONY. Course that was a while back, who knows what's going on with it now.
~Adam
defaultluser
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Unfortunately, onboard sound has practically destroyed the add-in board market, leaving only Creative Labs and a handfull of other small makers. The standalone soundcard market is actually shrinking every year.
Creative Labs doesn't seem capable of getting their ass into gear on a PCIe soundcard (still busy making their X-Fi pay off), and the other makers couldn't be bothered because they can't afford the development. So, you're stuck with PCI.
Unfortunately, that's the way it is with a lot of perhiperals. We saw the same lag moving from ISA -> PCI: the early adopters of PCI were video cards and disk controllers, and the PCI soundcards and network cards came later. Remember how long it took for ISA to die (just 5 years ago motherboards started going PCI-only)? That was mostly the soundcard makers dragging their feet.
I would expect a PCIe soundcard witthin another two years, but no sooner.
Reread what i said i didnt say most OEM computers have no graphics slot i said many of them dont. I did say most OEM computers ship with integrated video. Most probably do have PCI-E slots in them thats not what i said at all...but there are alot that have nothing but PCI.
And AGP offered cheap upgrade solutions until the bigwigs in marketing decided to phase them out this is not the fault of the platform whatsoever its simple marketing. The whole point of moving to PCI-E was not to decrease cost in fact in the beginning it cost more to produce PCI-E boards by quite a bit because of all the retooling that needed done etc. What made it seem "cheaper" to the ignorant consumer was manufacturers jacking up the prices on AGP so in comparison you say its cheaper like the good sheep you are without realizing your paying more for your PCI-E platform...Its the same as a company jacking the price up on something by $20 then putting it on sale for $20 the ignorant will say "Wow what a deal, its on sale it must be a good deal" where the educated consumer will say WTF thats the same price.
Your argument as far as cost between the 2 is ridiculous at best. If you would look around you and pay attention AGP was the same in terms of cost until the powers that be wanted it phased out for PCI-E. Just because AGP users are being anal raped by manufacturers you think thats because of the cost of production...Gullible is the only word i can think of for that.
Worldhammer
Limp Gawd
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Ahh here we go again, another thread that was simple enough until the pcie whiner brigade invades.
The vid card industry tried to pull a fast one and then woke up and realized that the force out wasnt going to work quite like they thought it would.
And again as usual I see that lie about it being just oh so cheap to upgrade to pcie, always with some link to a mb price, like thats all there is to replace. So enough of this utter bullshit about being able to do it for like 200 bucks. Not happening. Not with comparable hardware.
We are going to keep our agp systems afloat as long as we can. Get the fuck over it.
We dont do it because we just love agp, it's about money, and for me at least it has a little to do with the attempt to force me into it.
People act like agp fingered them in the ass, and are then compelled to go into any agp thread and whine out their condemnations. Weird. As long as they are trying to get this migration to happen, and we keep buying agp cards, that will keep the prices down on pcie. Much like it already has. You think they dont want to charge more? Can anything in creation be found that doesnt have !!!!!!s? You owe us for that cheap 7900 and give us nothing but shit.
As far as a agp dx10 goes, well....... doesnt seem likely. But then like someone else has mentioned, thats exactly what they said before 7800gs and x1950. We'll see.
The vid card industry tried to pull a fast one and then woke up and realized that the force out wasnt going to work quite like they thought it would.
And again as usual I see that lie about it being just oh so cheap to upgrade to pcie, always with some link to a mb price, like thats all there is to replace. So enough of this utter bullshit about being able to do it for like 200 bucks. Not happening. Not with comparable hardware.
We are going to keep our agp systems afloat as long as we can. Get the fuck over it.
We dont do it because we just love agp, it's about money, and for me at least it has a little to do with the attempt to force me into it.
People act like agp fingered them in the ass, and are then compelled to go into any agp thread and whine out their condemnations. Weird. As long as they are trying to get this migration to happen, and we keep buying agp cards, that will keep the prices down on pcie. Much like it already has. You think they dont want to charge more? Can anything in creation be found that doesnt have !!!!!!s? You owe us for that cheap 7900 and give us nothing but shit.
As far as a agp dx10 goes, well....... doesnt seem likely. But then like someone else has mentioned, thats exactly what they said before 7800gs and x1950. We'll see.
Think about associated costs rolled into products. I don't believe AGP products are more expensive because these corporations are evil, I believe they're more expensive because the profitability of these cards is low as PCIe price points, or nonexistent, thus the prices are increased. It's the most directly logical explanation.
Think about my above response for a moment.
One can have a field day with this "statement", though I think I'll leave it for someone else.
Very true, but you have to consider the future viability of these platforms. Holding on to AGP is a bit like grasping the face of a cliff with a single finger. The fall is inevitable, and holding on is really just delaying the inevitable. Sinking a great deal of money into an AGP card promises what kind of upgrade route? Essentially, zero. With PCIe, we're still taking chances that, just maybe, PCIe is going to be obsolete (spec 2.0 will not do this very quickly) at some near point, but we're using our brains. We know that we'll be able to swap motherboards, chipsets and CPUs for a fair while, and many of us will do so two or three (or four or five or...) times before PCIe is obsolete.
I don't see any purpose is delaying the "Big Jump"; that is completely replacing nearly all components of a system when upgrading. We PCIe folk stomached the Big Jump "early", and we're rewarded for it. We get to run out and buy whatever high-end card we want and know that it's compatible with the slots we already have. Some AGP folk are grasping a cliff face for no real purpose, and now that their finger is giving way, they're still very optimistic. It's just all a bit nonsensical.
Again look at what you yourself said...the reason "profitability" is down is they tricked the market into believing they need the new hot bus type by telling us AGP is dead when it was very much alive and kicking...again your reason points right back to the manufacturers.
Before PCI-E people had little reason to upgrade thier motherboards, New video card comes out it worked on 90% of them out there all it takes is making a new video card incompatible and just like that everyone that wants it has no choice but to upgrade...People didnt jump on PCI-E because they wanted to or believed AGP was dead they did it because they where tricked into thinking they had no fucking choice if they wanted to keep up with the bleeding edge. It has been shown many times that AGPs bandwidth has yet to be topped and besides bidirectional data flow PCI-E had nothing on AGP whatsoever. Who needs more bandwidth when the amount we have now is more than sufficient?
Point is they couldve kept AGP alive and taken a direction of marketing both platforms but they knew if they "Killed" AGP sales would go through the roof in a market that was getting stale.
Please be my guest...If you looked at it realistically AGP users have been screwed there is not a single card that has come out that AGP couldnt handle yet were thrown leftovers... Some of you say because its more expensive needing the extra HSI chip...Well when PCI-E was brand new they did the exact opposite to get high end AGP cards made for PCI-Express you guessed it all those brand new high end cards that found its way to PCI-E when it was brand new had an HSI chip on them yet it didnt cost a dime extra.
Again the only reason what you say is true is because the manufacturers have made it this way. AGP wouldnt cost a dime more than PCI-E if they didnt jack the prices up its as simple as that, ATI has proven this point releasing the X1950 at ~$200 it was the asshats at NVIDIA that started the fuck AGP trend with the 7800GS at $350 that was absolutely ridiculous.
Real question is if you guys are so happy with your "Rewards" why do you feel it necessary to shit on AGP users everytime theres a thread involving the word AGP? If your so happy you moved on why constantly say shit like "I hope AGP never sees another card" sounds like your trying to make yourselves believe the whole AGP is dead shit to justify the cash you spent...
There are many people out there with well thought out, well organized systems that can handle another upgrade before being consigned to the garbage heap.They're not looking to keep a long upgrade route, just that one or two more until they really have a compelling reason to upgrade. Just think of all the folks out there with overclocked Northwoods running in excess of 3.5 ghz with gobs of fast ram. PCIE is not a compelling reason for them to throw out all of that good gear when the AGP bus can still handle the load.
All this PCIE/AGP crap is planned obsolescence on the part of the manufacturers. Using the term "forced" when discussing upgrades would be silly, but it is an artificial constraint on what people can buy and when.
Made up statistics? I don't care much for that.
PCIe is bleeding edge, and rightly so. It's a superior interface in every single aspect that anyone can manage to think of. Either you're bleeding edge, or you're not.
I also don't believe anyone tricked anyone about AGP, unless you can provide concrete examples of this having actually happened.
Pricing products at levels that consumers will pay is good business. I can't say if it worked out for NVIDIA, but I'd do the exact same thing until confronted by competition.
What AGP users did I shit on, specifically? I thought we were having a reasonable discussion here. I seem to recall you being the one to resort to name calling.
Not at all. As I've explained previously, the death of AGP is beneficial to PCIe users. It's really that simple. I don't need any additional reasons to justify my foray into the world of PCIe. It's been great to me, and I have absolutely zero regrets. I think the interface itself is absolutely fantastic.
Ideally, I want the world to shift in my favor. I'm really not at all concerned about AGP users. I'm concerned that it's still around and kicking, for whatever reasons I can't quite begin to understand, but I really care nothing about your plight. Your plight is a position you put yourself in, not a position the hardware manufacturers put you in. Your choices are yours and yours alone. You chose not to upgrade, and you'll have to live with that choice.
I'm quite frankly tired of the "I'm a victim" point of view, and it only makes me think less of AGP users such as yourself. I don't feel sorry for you, nor do I care about your situation. I don't think there's anything else I can say.
Some will be in positions to upgrade, sure. But the position is a very constrained one. If hardware manufacturers kept pumping out high-end AGP graphics cards alongside PCIe versions, your options would be better, but this really isn't the case.Decibel said:
The upgrade opportunities are simply far better with PCIe, regardless of the reasons.