After how many years? And no, they didn't fix them. Most of the time when they were replaced, the replacements were also flawed. 5 years later and we think there's finally a permanent fix.
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After today's Apple press conference, I will never buy a iPhone again...
- Thread starter zamardii
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After how many years? And no, they didn't fix them. Most of the time when they were replaced, the replacements were also flawed. 5 years later and we think there's finally a permanent fix.
I like how you make blatant off the cuff remarks then try and follow it up with information you are trying to pass off as truth, which is just personal opinion.
It wouldn't matter if someone else gave their opinion, you will just call them an "iSheep" and dismiss their take of the subject. This isn't the first time you had to resort to name calling to get attention to your opinion. Knock it off please and thank you.
People often put 360's in well ventilated areas, as well (IE: had no issues).
So my analogy is just fine. You wouldn't think fans would be an acceptable fix for the 360, so you shouldn't think a rubber band would be an acceptable fix for the iPhone 4, either.
You don't like me calling it fraud, and call for locking the thread, when that's exactly what it is.
Same exact shit Apple pulled when they didn't like what they heard about their device.
So your actions following the leader's actions... Seems like sheep to me. Hence iSheep. LOL
Since when have I said this doesn't exist? The point is that a very very low number of people are actually experiencing dropped calls.
Anandtech, as reputable a tech site out there, came to the conclusion that while signal attenuation is obvious with the iPhone 4, at the same time it has better reception and can get a signal in areas where prior iPhones cannot.
Perhaps they should.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbM7DWHwhUI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIkCF1Xb4Pc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHR4pkdlIjc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4zbQ3f7H0U
By all means, then. Since a DELL EMPLOYEE advocates against it, we should drop all the lawsuits and inquiries into the issue.
Get real.
The point is that any sane person sees the real issue and the fact that it isn't a big deal. An employee of a major competitor to Apple telling fanboys who would never buy an Apple product to "relax" says a lot about the fanboys.
You keep missing the point.
Dropping bars does not equate to dropping calls.
An iPhone 4 has attenuation issues due to its antenna design, nobody argues that. Thge problem is that practically speaking, it doesn't contribute to dropped calls to the degree that the peanut gallery would have you believe. Under a half percent difference compared to the iPhone 3GS, that is within the margin of error. Combine that with the fact, from external sources like Anandtech no less, that the iPhone can hold calls where the iPhone 3GS cannot, well, I don't see the problem outside of the PR BS that went down before the conference. "Don't hold it that way" is a horrible answer to a question, I'm sorry.
TexUs is "TechieSooner", one of the biggest fanboy trolls you will ever meet, and an account that Kyle banned from the front page forums last year. This person reregistered a new account so that he could continue his spewing. Nobody likes him; before the banning I'd get regular unsolicited messages from people trashing him, celebratory ones when he was banned, and more yet again when he registered. Pretty funny. At least he's popular!
I know that Shacknews, where I do most of my posting, has a strict permaban policy on people that reregister as a result of a prior ban. I think the same rules apply here but I also know that this place isn't as tightly moderated either.
In any case, don't take what he says seriously. If you get trolled into an argument with him you will waste huge amounts of time, and if he loses he puts you on the "iggy list". Azhar, a totally cool dude, is the last one to end up on it last I checked.
Microsoft didn't even acknowledge that there was a hardware problem for a full year. They did the right thing by extending the warranty but it is still a massive hardware issue. For all intents and purposes, it is still defective hardware, but we'll see how the Slim model works out. I'm on my third XBox, two seems to be common among among people I know, and a friend of mine friend is on his fifth.
And you know what? I still love the XBox, just like I love the iPhone 4, so whatever, who cares, move on.
heatlesssun
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I can buy that the "peanut gallery" raised the issue at first. But when have Apple product owners ever listened to the "peanut gallery"? Most Apple product owners I know are very happy with their stuff and pretty much don't listen to anyone else.
What I think is a more logical explanation is that the "peanut gallery" raised the issue, Apple and Jobs were just dismissive of the issue and then THAT'S when this got out of hand.
Apple has no one to blame over this getting out of control other than Apple. They could have addressed the issue by coating the phones BEFORE they released the product. They could have done a recall. Jobs could have kept his mouth shut instead of being dismissive. They had EVERY opportunity to make a choice that would have either PREVENTED OR MITIGATED this issue and they simply didn't BEFORE this got out of control.
I just don't believe much in things just happening to people and companies. They tend to bring it on themselves. Not saying that shit doesn't happen, just not as often as people and corporations making bad choices all by themselves. Just life view of mine that applies to ALL people and companies, including Microsoft and myself. The worst things that have happened to me happened by MY HAND, no one else's.
Heatlesssun - It is a point that I made myself in these forums weeks ago, that Jobs could have handled this 1000x better (saying "Hold it differently" is asinine) and not let this spin out of control. On the other hand, I wonder how much better it would have been had they just outright said "every phone has attenuation issues", because people hate that point now. I believe he should have kept quiet until Friday's conference, but that doesn't really matter. They're damned either way, but that's how it is when you're such a massive target. It was Microsoft's turn, now its Apple and Google's turn.
A recall doesn't make sense either, since practically speaking it really isn't an issue. If we are talking about a <1% difference in dropped calls than a 3GS and superior reception to a 3GS, then this all doesn't really matter in anything aside from being a PR snafu and something for people to cry about on the internet.
Or if we're going to go by a tech commentator who I actually respect: http://twitter.com/anandshimpi/status/18878563883
I pay less attention to rhetoric and more attention to practical results. If it was a problem, like initial iOS 2.0 performance that made me want to throw my iPhone through a window, then I'd have something to complain about. This is just something to add drama to people's lives, a soap opera for nerds.
A recall doesn't make sense either, since practically speaking it really isn't an issue. If we are talking about a <1% difference in dropped calls than a 3GS and superior reception to a 3GS, then this all doesn't really matter in anything aside from being a PR snafu and something for people to cry about on the internet.
Or if we're going to go by a tech commentator who I actually respect: http://twitter.com/anandshimpi/status/18878563883
I pay less attention to rhetoric and more attention to practical results. If it was a problem, like initial iOS 2.0 performance that made me want to throw my iPhone through a window, then I'd have something to complain about. This is just something to add drama to people's lives, a soap opera for nerds.
I think a lot of people here are missing the point, especially those who are blindly defending Apple. All devices with an antenna will lose some signal if you block the antenna with a physical object. This is understood and expected by techies and there is not much a manufacturer who creates a device with an internal antenna can do about it other than try to locate the antenna in a common position where it will receive the strongest signal.
The problem with iPhone 4 is that they placed the antenna on the outside of the phone and on the lower left hand corner for some the mere skin contact with this area in any way will drop your signal. This is a design flaw. Jobs keeps saying a bumper fixes the problem, but so would a properly designed antenna mechanism. Nobody is complaining that when you physically cover an antenna it stops working as well. That would be stupid. What people are stating is that there is a design flaw in the iPhone 4 that when merely touched in a certain spot you bridge the antennas and lose reception. That is a problem with a singular device and is not a common issue that all smartphones encounter. Not only that, but the response from Apple has not only been less than stellar, it has been rude, pompous and downright arrogant.
And why is it that iPhone 4 owners ($200-300) seem to believe that comparing their brand new phone, which they consider to be the best smartphone in the world, to a discontinued Android phone that released last year for $100 is a comparison they are satisfied with? The comparison is laughable at best. Comparing to Android, Blackberry and Samsung is a cop out. None of these phones have the problem the iPhone 4 exhibits. Nor have they treated their customers like they are beneath them when they have complained about reception problems. In the case of the Eris, this was 34x less often than the iPhone 4.
The problem with iPhone 4 is that they placed the antenna on the outside of the phone and on the lower left hand corner for some the mere skin contact with this area in any way will drop your signal. This is a design flaw. Jobs keeps saying a bumper fixes the problem, but so would a properly designed antenna mechanism. Nobody is complaining that when you physically cover an antenna it stops working as well. That would be stupid. What people are stating is that there is a design flaw in the iPhone 4 that when merely touched in a certain spot you bridge the antennas and lose reception. That is a problem with a singular device and is not a common issue that all smartphones encounter. Not only that, but the response from Apple has not only been less than stellar, it has been rude, pompous and downright arrogant.
And why is it that iPhone 4 owners ($200-300) seem to believe that comparing their brand new phone, which they consider to be the best smartphone in the world, to a discontinued Android phone that released last year for $100 is a comparison they are satisfied with? The comparison is laughable at best. Comparing to Android, Blackberry and Samsung is a cop out. None of these phones have the problem the iPhone 4 exhibits. Nor have they treated their customers like they are beneath them when they have complained about reception problems. In the case of the Eris, this was 34x less often than the iPhone 4.
Vermillion
Supreme [H]ardness
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The reason they compare to the Eris is because they can't do the same to say a Droid because of the Droid's antenna location. Hell they half-assed the comparison to Droid Eris, BB Bold 9700 and every other phone on Apple's "atennagate" webpage anyways.
The Bold 9700 you have to cup the bottom of the phone or claw grip in such a fucked up way that you'd never be comfortable making a call.
The Eris you have to again claw grip in a way that you'd never be comfortable making a call or you have to cup the top of the phone.
I'm not denying attenuation happens on all phones but iPhone 4 is seriously fucked up because it takes a single finger to screw it up, not some crazy ass claw grip that nobody will ever use.
http://blogs.computerworld.com/16555/apple_iphone_4_antenna
Doesn't surprise me one bit that Apple came out of this smelling like roses though. I knew they'd spin it in a such a way that they would look good. Apple is definitely top notch when it comes to PR lies.
I swear, every time I see that image I just crack up...
Is that picture for real? Also, does Steve ever change his shirt? Every time I see him on TV or video, he alway wear that black shirt. LOL.
heatlesssun
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Yes you have said that Apple didn't handle this well, but I'll say it again, what do other phone's attenuation issues have to do the this particular problem with the iPhone 4? Once you cover the iPhone 4 properly this issue is resolved, even your beloved "penut gallery" says this. What do other phones have to do with this? There's no logical connection to be made. None.
This particular issue simply has NOTHING to do with other phones. Nada, none, zip and zero. It simply doesn't. That fact that it is SO EASILY FIXED proves that in spades.
I was just thorwing out ideas earlier. I wasn't recommending that Apple needed to do a recall. But that would have be better recieved by the public at large than an antenna lesson and talking about competitiors that had nothing do with iPhone 4 problem. Of course that would have cost a lot of money.
Yes, it's real, he did that back at the WWDC iPhone 4 intro just as a joke but, of course some photographer snapped it perfectly.
Same shirt, shoes, pants, etc... it's his image.And yes, I don't think he's ever really chosen a different style for the past decade. Reminds me of Seth Brundle's character in "The Fly" - 7 sets of clothes, all exactly the same, hanging in his closet and when asked about it he says it makes things easier, doesn't require any thought beforehand, just put the damned clothes on and go.
Mad genius? Perhaps... but even so, geez... another trait of a Cult leader in many respects, they have an image that never changes, never alters, is always the same so people can lock in on it and keep it in their mind's eye.
To be honest, I've noticed a lot of the Apple folk tend to dress exactly the same every time I see them, especially Johnathan Ive. You'd think someone that's so creative as a designer might think "Hey, I'll wear a blue shirt today..."
Apple has a public image and it permeates everything they do, everywhere... even off the 1 Infinite Way campus, it seems.
Ranting a bit, my apologies, but someone asked the question about the clothes...
They're down 10 pts, or 4% from a week ago. They've already gained 5 points today. Do you have any idea how small of a shift that is or how often they happen in the stock market?
Yes, it's real, he did that back at the WWDC iPhone 4 intro just as a joke but, of course some photographer snapped it perfectly.
And yes, I don't think he's ever really chosen a different style for the past decade. Reminds me of Seth Brundle's character in "The Fly" - 7 sets of clothes, all exactly the same, hanging in his closet and when asked about it he says it makes things easier, doesn't require any thought beforehand, just put the damned clothes on and go.
Mad genius? Perhaps... but even so, geez... another trait of a Cult leader in many respects, they have an image that never changes, never alters, is always the same so people can lock in on it and keep it in their mind's eye.
To be honest, I've noticed a lot of the Apple folk tend to dress exactly the same every time I see them, especially Johnathan Ive. You'd think someone that's so creative as a designer might think "Hey, I'll wear a blue shirt today..."
Apple has a public image and it permeates everything they do, everywhere... even off the 1 Infinite Way campus, it seems.
Ranting a bit, my apologies, but someone asked the question about the clothes...
Big surprise here, Bahamut spouting more off the cuff remarks and personal attacks.
I realize it shifts constantly.
It's no coincidence that two fairly major drops occurred one right after the Consumer Reports findings and one right after their news conference.
My point is simple: That tells you what people actually think of it.
You do realize 4% is still almost $9B, right? You realize a recall would've been estimated at $1.3B, right?
You realize how terribly poor of a comparison that is, and that if they implemented a full recall the stock would likely tank well more than 4%? You make that comparison as if implementing a recall would prevent a stock price drop when that isn't even close to the truth. The reality is it would have a much, much larger negative effect.
Considering they're offering everyone full refunds, odds of that courtroom battle going anywhere is laughable.
My favorite part is where he tries to blow smoke up my ass. Don't worry I don't take much seriously on the internet, especially people who just argue for attention.
tmoney2007
Weaksauce
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My Droid 1 actually gained a bar when I death-gripped it, my Droid X doesn't lose any reception when I hold it that way...
Apple can't change physics, but effective antennae can be designed... tons of companies have done it. Putting the antennae on the edge of the phone where they could be touched and where the ends could be covered is a rookie mistake. The fact that the new antennae were a big part of the sales pitch makes it even more ridiculous.
Apple can't change physics, but effective antennae can be designed... tons of companies have done it. Putting the antennae on the edge of the phone where they could be touched and where the ends could be covered is a rookie mistake. The fact that the new antennae were a big part of the sales pitch makes it even more ridiculous.
Also drop in stock price does not immediately affect a company. That stock is sold, company has received the capital. Done and done.
Lower stock price would affect future stock offered.
Recall would have immediately impacted bottom line as they would have to pay for it now.
Selling a device that has a flaw isn't fraud. And not even remotely close if you're talking about meeting the legal requirements for fraud. Will be fun to quote your posts when the court case goes absolutely no where.
TheWeazmeister
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I agree that the antenna issue sucks (it is one of the reasons I decided not to upgrade to the iPhone 4 and go with a android phone instead), but it certainly isn't fraud. They have acknowledged that it is an issue, and offer you either a free bumper or a refund. Just because an item is sold with a flaw doesn't mean the company is liable for fraud. I would argue that very few items sold are completely flawless.
That is still not fraud. They are willing offering returns for anyone who has an issue. Selling a product with a known flaw is not fraud.
Is the EVO + 4G battery life flaw also fraud? About about the Nexus One daylight viewing issues? RROD? Shall I continue?
Limitation of technology on your examples, get real.
RROD was certainly fraud as well.
As far as fraud, steps the company takes to remedy it (If the customer hears or is willing to do so) don't matter if they continue to sell flawed devices. That might help lessen the judgement but it doesn't fix the issue. If I beat your car to shit will the fact I later fix it for you mean I won't get charged with destruction of property? Hell no.
Apple is knowingly selling defective products= fraud.
If you want to disagree further, well, we can agree to disagree. There's enough cases out there that this falls under fraud.
M-W Legal Dictionary can attest to this as well:
http://research.lawyers.com/glossary/fraud.html
Come now Mr. Free Market. What if consumers know the flaw and still want to buy it? Why should the 99.5% of people who have no issues be unable to buy the phone because of the 0.5% that do? Even the RROD lawsuit only demanded refunds, which Apple is already willingly giving.
Every device is flawed in one respect or another. Every device. If you manage to find a piece of technology that is without any flaw, then I would encourage you to point it out to us so that we could appreciate its technological perfection.
Knowing it's flawed and selling it and even attempting to deceive customers (this is "normal".... and "You can't hold it the way we advertised") is a key part in fraud.
This certainly isn't my area of expertise, but it wasn't all that long ago that I was in law school and learned about fraud cases (though longer than I care to admit ). I would say you are certainly more accurate in saying selling a defective product is fraud, but that isn't what you originally said. You originally said selling a product with a flaw is fraud, which simply isn't correct. I can find some flaw in most items I use, but the product's maker certainly didn't defraud me.
I think the problem for the lawsuit here is proving that the item is defective rather than just flawed. There is a rather simple solution to fixing the problem, which is free for consumers if they want to implement it. I agree completely that the item is flawed (hence the reason I decided to look elsewhere for a phone), but it is a much steeper mountain to climb to say that it is defective.
Time will tell I suppose.
). I would say you are certainly more accurate in saying selling a defective product is fraud, but that isn't what you originally said. You originally said selling a product with a flaw is fraud, which simply isn't correct. I can find some flaw in most items I use, but the product's maker certainly didn't defraud me. I think the problem for the lawsuit here is proving that the item is defective rather than just flawed. There is a rather simple solution to fixing the problem, which is free for consumers if they want to implement it. I agree completely that the item is flawed (hence the reason I decided to look elsewhere for a phone), but it is a much steeper mountain to climb to say that it is defective.
Time will tell I suppose.
It's normal for a phone's cellular reception capabilities to become severely impacted when its antenna comes into contact with the human body. Perfectly normal, actually. Grip the external telescoping antennas of the phones of yesteryear and you'll be able to appreciate just how normal it is.
Hmm? I do it all the time still works. What do you mean I can't hold it the way it's advertised as being held?
We're really beating a dead horse.
Show me another phone that DROPS, not just drops the bars, but DROPS THE SIGNAL with ONE FINGERPRINT and you have an argument. Otherwise, nope.
They show browsing the web and stuff with your skin in contact with that strip... Plenty of Apple ads that demonstrate this on the new iPhone 4.
Mine never dropped a signal with one finger
Yes, and I can do this too.
So why exactly should I have been unable to purchase this phone?