Amazon Says Gets OK For California Sales Tax Referendum

qdemn7 said:
It IS the US Government's responsibility to protect the people from their own stupidity. That's why we live in a Representative Republic, and not a Pure Democracy, or a Commonwealth. The Founders knew the power and stupidity of the mob. Just because a majority votes for something does not make it correct or legal.
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If the Republic gives them the right to vote on it, who is to blame?
 
PoopsMacClaude said:
You seem to be under the illusion that the government actually needs what it takes in to run (yet still spends hundreds of billions beyond this). This country's government could be run on a fraction of what it takes in. Enormous military budgets (which in turn a large portion of that money is wasted outright), earmarking, pork barrel bills, etc. The list goes on. We don't need 730 military bases in 50 other countries.
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Yes, but there are plenty of "low taxes" hawks right here, who DO want 730 military bases in 50 countries, because according to them, National Defense matters more than anything else. They are willing to bankrupt this country to prove that they have a bigger cock than the other guy. Their idea of "less government" is to eliminate almost everything else, and give the Pentagon anything and everything it wants.
 
1 said:
A better more prosperous life is shitty...right...



They all go away (we can pray gov ends deficit spending too) and everyone is much much better off as a result.


I personally and not going to have children because I could not, in good conscience, bring new life to live in a world where people think government services are necessary or good. We have more government than ever and last I checked, we are not doing so good.[/QUOTE]


Someone need to bop you on the head with a reality check? Greece is not doing "good". Afghanistan is not doing "good". Most of Africa is not doing "good". Last I checked, America is doing better than 99% of the world's population.

But this is a typical American response. How does tax loopholes magically go away when things go unregulated? Were you even conscious during the housing crisis?

How are public services not necessary or good? Did you drive? Do you have running water? Do you have electricity? Do you have telephone service? Do you get mail? Did you get an education? Do you or your kids visit the park? Do you visit museums or art galleries (I doubt it)? Do you like being protected by the police? Do you like knowing firemen will come save your life in case your entire life starts burning away?

Government has and had a hand in all those programs and more. But you're right, we would be much better off because none of those things are either "good" or "necessary" :rolleyes:
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I understand the government needs to collect more taxes, but before you do so maybe you should stop fighting a war that isn't going anywhere that is only hurting the US. These wars are doing nothing but hurting the countries Economy and killing off the poor soldiers who have to fight it. I don't think its possible to change the Middle East, they are how they are.
 
Dreaz said:
Government has and had a hand in all those programs and more. But you're right, we would be much better off because none of those things are either "good" or "necessary" :rolleyes:
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Ah, the all or nothing strawman argument. Yes, the government has it's hands in much much more than you listed. One of which was giving a ton of our money back to the banks and investors that helped get us in this situation to begin with.

Take a look at your state employee wages and pensions instead. There were city council members making upwards of $700k a year for doing next to nothing. I'm not talking about teachers here, as I think they deserve fair wage, but many local and state government workers in California are paid such ridiculous wages with such far reaching benefits packages it should make you sick. Fix that at the voting booth instead of relying on your usually apathetic voter turnout and get active, THEN come talk to Amazon.
 
PoopsMacClaude said:
You seem to be under the illusion that the government actually needs what it takes in to run (yet still spends hundreds of billions beyond this). This country's government could be run on a fraction of what it takes in. Enormous military budgets (which in turn a large portion of that money is wasted outright), earmarking, pork barrel bills, etc. The list goes on. We don't need 730 military bases in 50 other countries.
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This is where people get all worked up and think that the government can run a world class enterprise on a Somali pirate budget. Earmarks contribute to less than 1% of the federal budget. So yes, while that is still big money and we shouldn't waste it, thinking that cutting out earmarks, foreign aid and unidentified "waste" will all of a sudden mean we don't have to pay more taxes to take care of 40 years of overspending is incorrect.
 
TwistedAegis said:
This is where people get all worked up and think that the government can run a world class enterprise on a Somali pirate budget. Earmarks contribute to less than 1% of the federal budget. So yes, while that is still big money and we shouldn't waste it, thinking that cutting out earmarks, foreign aid and unidentified "waste" will all of a sudden mean we don't have to pay more taxes to take care of 40 years of overspending is incorrect.
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Well, that's more of State budget vs. Federal budget. California is in a bit more trouble than the other states, but not really because it doesn't capture enough tax revenue. Like I pointed out earlier, some of your state and county employees are making way more in benefits and wages than they should. Construction projects will be halted halfway through due to scope creep, only to be scrapped and restarted years later. Your prison systems also drains quite a bit of money, because there are so many people in it.
 
LeninGHOLA said:
Well, that's more of State budget vs. Federal budget. California is in a bit more trouble than the other states, but not really because it doesn't capture enough tax revenue. Like I pointed out earlier, some of your state and county employees are making way more in benefits and wages than they should. Construction projects will be halted halfway through due to scope creep, only to be scrapped and restarted years later. Your prison systems also drains quite a bit of money, because there are so many people in it.
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The union issue is a huge one; the ridiculous thing is that pensions are enshrined in our state Constitution and thus have massive legal entaglements for dealing with them. I still think they should be dealt with, but it will be years if not decades for that to work out.

On one hand it's sickening that people can continue milking tax dollars for overpromised benefits. On the other, it's good that our legal system is strong enough the gov't can't just grab previously contracted resources from private citizens. Most of the time at least.

And while many disparage our states financial management, rightfully so, it isn't nearly as bad as it is made out. Our debt to GDP ratio is only 19%; Greece, which is constantly brought up in comparison, is running a debt to GDP ratio of 143%. Texas, which is held as a paragon of financial management, has a debt to GDP ratio only .5% lower.

In a state with a GDP of $2 trillion, it is spending "only" $100 billion on its budget this year. I think Jerry has done a pretty good job so far, that is about 50% less than our peak state budget.
 
TwistedAegis said:
In a state with a GDP of $2 trillion, it is spending "only" $100 billion on its budget this year. I think Jerry has done a pretty good job so far, that is about 50% less than our peak state budget.
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Good, well I hope you all can pull out of the slump. I also hope you can do so without costing Amazon jobs in my state ;)
 
Instead, we should just slaughter Ca's budget for:

Health and Human Services
Legislative, Judicial, Executive
Business, Transportation & Housing

That plus possibly a stern look at Corrections and Rehabilitation, and Ca's budget would be just fine.
 
During WWII when the military bought a tank it paid a fair price.. now they pay contractor prices that are inflated into the thousands of percent and used non-compete contracts during much of the GW administration.

If you think $100 for a Hammer or $1000 for a Toilet Seat is a lot, you should see how much they sell vehicles for to the gov..

Our Defense spending can swallow more than 12 of the programs ranked by expense below it... by itself.

I'm sorry, but as a rational, thinking, human being, I cannot see the necessity of this spending NOR its returns. If the current state of Iraq, and Afghanistan is what we got for our money, I'd like to request a refund.
 
The Red said:
During WWII when the military bought a tank it paid a fair price.. now they pay contractor prices that are inflated into the thousands of percent and used non-compete contracts during much of the GW administration.
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And who was the President immediately following WWII? And what was his warning upon leaving office?
 
1 said:
I personally and not going to have children because I could not, in good conscience, bring new life to live in a world where people think government services are necessary or good. We have more government than ever and last I checked, we are not doing so good.
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[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0"]‪Billy Madison - Ultimate Insult (Academic Decathlon)‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]
 
See I think the nature of the beast is how Amazon is doing business.

No physical presence in California so no taxes.. SCOTUS said so.

However you can buy things on the Amazon site through these "affiliates" which are essentially other businesses. Now Amazon wants to argue that they have no presence in the state, yet you can go to their website, you can buy products, Amazon collects money, and it ends up on your doorstep, and these products actually come from California, hence a presence.

Slight hitch, Amazon argues because these are from "affiliates" and not them they really don't have a presence are are more than willing to dump all the affiliates in California to stay tax free. However here's the kicker, do these affiliates collect sales tax if sold to someone in California? If they don't, they really are ones to blame and need to be subject to taxation/penalties/etc. Bottom line is they'd be skirting the law themselves by using Amazon as a way to "launder" the order. Never having paid for sales tax from an Amazon order (and kept track of whom exactly sold me my goods) I can't say for certain.

Also another interesting tidbit is Amazon is making a percentage off every sale these affiliates are doing, so again goods sold from California, going to California, Amazon makes money on it. So stuff in California gets "sold" to a tax-free state entity (Amazon), then gets sold back to California tax free (again assuming they don't collect taxes on affiliates), and thinks California is being draconian with wanting to collect taxes?
 
TwistedAegis said:
Of course the children (US citizens in this case) will vote to not pay for anything. They'll also vote in all kinds of benefits.

Then we'll all kick back, blame the gov't for our ignorance, and watch our country burn. Good morning everyone!
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California collects plenty of taxes. Maybe California could come up with a better solution than attempting to usurp other states' rights.
 
Trimlock said:
They can but we have one of the worst voter states ever. Ill give you an example, a prior governor called grey davis was in office and no one liked him, he had extremely low support for his office just a year after elected. The guy got re elected after being labeled one of the worst politicians to hold office (voter lines were really small). It took a massive fire that was wreaking havoc in southern california and him never sending in the guard to come in and help to finally get people to come out of their damn homes (now burned down) to vote him out.
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Pretty ironic in the state that most champions ballot measures.

TechLarry said:
Wrong. We're getting smarter at knowing when our Government is wasting our money. We give them more than enough of our Salaries to cover the cost of running the government, medicaire, Social Security, etc... It's all the waste and political spending that goes on that has us broke.
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This is a common fallacy. There isn't much "waste" that can be eliminated. Of course there is waste, as that's just human nature in any organization, but tracking it down and eliminating it would cost more than it would save.

It's so easy to say, "you don't have to cut any useful services; just cut waste," but that's really just a cop out. The fact is, for the government to cut spending, they'll have to shut down some services that some people find useful.

Saying "we pay enough taxes; give us these services" is like walking into a store and insisting that since you believe that candy bar is worth no more than $0.65, the shop owner must sell it to you for that price.
 
TwistedAegis said:
$663.7 billion (+12.7%) – Department of Defense
$52.5 billion (+10.3%) – Department of Veterans Affairs

$46.7 billion (+12.8%) – Department of Education
$18.7 billion (+5.1%) – National Aeronautics and Space Administration
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Also, this makes me very sad. If we cut military spending in half, we'd still be the world's top spender and have ~$300 billion a year to play with. Of course, none will go to education. The more you educate the population, the more people you have who won't put up with the crap that politicians pull.
 
HOCP4ME said:
Pretty ironic in the state that most champions ballot measures.



This is a common fallacy. There isn't much "waste" that can be eliminated. Of course there is waste, as that's just human nature in any organization, but tracking it down and eliminating it would cost more than it would save.

It's so easy to say, "you don't have to cut any useful services; just cut waste," but that's really just a cop out. The fact is, for the government to cut spending, they'll have to shut down some services that some people find useful.

Saying "we pay enough taxes; give us these services" is like walking into a store and insisting that since you believe that candy bar is worth no more than $0.65, the shop owner must sell it to you for that price.
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ironic, or the origination of the lazy liberal stereotype? this state is full of blow hards but no one motivated enough to do anything about it.
 
fattypants said:
Also, this makes me very sad. If we cut military spending in half, we'd still be the world's top spender and have ~$300 billion a year to play with. Of course, none will go to education. The more you educate the population, the more people you have who won't put up with the crap that politicians pull.
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That's one way to think about it... however another way is to say

if you cut military spending in half, we'd be 300 billion less over our budget.
 
all you non-cali, non-washington chumps should also pay tax.
how dare you guys buy from amazon tax free.:rolleyes: and not report it.

I hope this shit passes. As long as we have stupid recycling fees, I will stand behind amazon.

You know the recycling fees are retarded because they adjusted the fees down from $16 to $8 recently for 15-30" laptops and tv's. Reducing the fee just shows that california didn't really need the fee to begin with.
 
TwistedAegis said:
Of course the children (US citizens in this case) will vote to not pay for anything. They'll also vote in all kinds of benefits.

Then we'll all kick back, blame the gov't for our ignorance, and watch our country burn. Good morning everyone!
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Well said.

Reminds me of, well, just about everyone in this thread.
 
I work at Micro Center and all day I hear " well if I build this computer online I don't have to pay tax " so I hope it passes. I'm not pro tax I'm just tired of hearing people whine !
 
I know there are those who think Amazon should stay free... some how are worried their state might change their mind and make Amazon collect sales taxes too, but damnit if I don't want this to pass if anything simply just to give a big pie in the face for Amazon or any other big corporation simply trying to put laws about how we do and don't pay taxes into place.

Not sure exactly how it'd be written on the ballots though. "Continue to allow residents cheaper goods from Amazon YES/NO" "Continue to allow residents to side step sales taxes YES/NO" "Continue to allow companies to write our laws YES/NO"
 
Amazon isn't trying to write laws, they are trying to fight new more restrictive ones.
 
TwistedAegis said:
Of course the children (US citizens in this case) will vote to not pay for anything. They'll also vote in all kinds of benefits.

Then we'll all kick back, blame the gov't for our ignorance, and watch our country burn. Good morning everyone!
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What are you talking about... we need to TAX TAX TAX the wealthy because they have all this money and they need to share waaaahhhhhhhhhh. That's what children in the US vote for today.
 
Maverick1337 said:
What are you talking about... we need to TAX TAX TAX the wealthy because they have all this money and they need to share waaaahhhhhhhhhh. That's what children in the US vote for today.
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No kidding. A lot of people (especially my generation, sadly) don't mind taxes being raised, as long as they're not the ones stuck paying for them.
 
Maverick1337 said:
What are you talking about... we need to TAX TAX TAX the wealthy because they have all this money and they need to share waaaahhhhhhhhhh. That's what children in the US vote for today.
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I was hoping this thread would devolve into a completely unrelated class warfare debate. Luckily, the wealthy are paying less in taxes now than they were all the way back to the 1940's, which makes it moot.
 
Maverick1337 said:
What are you talking about... we need to TAX TAX TAX the wealthy because they have all this money and they need to share waaaahhhhhhhhhh. That's what children in the US vote for today.
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Your uninformed opinion is baseless.

I believe it was Warren Buffett who said "I pay less in taxes than my receptionist and cleaning lady". And proved it. To be fair, it was a percentage, not a total. Meaning, he paid around 17% of his income in taxes, while his receptionist and cleaning lady were closer to 30%

Trickle-down economics does not work... it failed gloriously under Regan, and GW.

...when will we learn...
 
Maverick1337 said:
What are you talking about... we need to TAX TAX TAX the wealthy because they have all this money and they need to share waaaahhhhhhhhhh. That's what children in the US vote for today.
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You're absolutely right, we should roll back tax policy to the 1950s, the golden age of America!
 
The Red said:
Your uninformed opinion is baseless.

I believe it was Warren Buffett who said "I pay less in taxes than my receptionist and cleaning lady". And proved it. To be fair, it was a percentage, not a total. Meaning, he paid around 17% of his income in taxes, while his receptionist and cleaning lady were closer to 30%

Trickle-down economics does not work... it failed gloriously under Regan, and GW.

...when will we learn...
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You think Buffett (and other rich people) could afford as many receptionists and cleaning ladies if they paid more in taxes?
 
And to expand upon the point, at a time when tax rates on the rich are at historical lows, the "rich" have historically high levels of wealth, corporations are sitting on historically large piles of cash and making record profits, we are having very high unemployment.
 
dr.stevil said:
No kidding. A lot of people (especially my generation, sadly) don't mind taxes being raised, as long as they're not the ones stuck paying for them.
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How about this one for size. I want a freeze on taxes, raising or lowering them. I just want companies like GE that have 5B+ in profits, to not a have tax loophole that gives them a 3.2B tax credit...and hence not pay any taxes in the US...I believe that my friend who is an ER doc, and out of every 3 days he's working 1 of those days goes to taxes, is doing his fair share. I would just like to see corporations such as Google, GE, etc pay their taxes, NOT raise them, as that won't mean jack, but actually close the loopholes.

Google
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-callahan/googles-tax-avoidance-so_b_772080.html

GE
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011...ally-no-tax-yet-got-bailed-out-in-crisis.html

/rant
 
The Red said:
Your uninformed opinion is baseless.

I believe it was Warren Buffett who said "I pay less in taxes than my receptionist and cleaning lady". And proved it. To be fair, it was a percentage, not a total. Meaning, he paid around 17% of his income in taxes, while his receptionist and cleaning lady were closer to 30%

Trickle-down economics does not work... it failed gloriously under Regan, and GW.

...when will we learn...
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What you left out is that Warren Buffett brought this up and then said that he should be PAYING MORE in taxes, as this made no sense for him to be paying that little. Warren Buffett has been an advocate of tax reform for years.
 
LeninGHOLA said:
Amazon isn't trying to write laws, they are trying to fight new more restrictive ones.
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Well, that's a new conservative spin I've heard on the issue.

Basically, tax loopholes shouldn't be closed and dealt with because it would make the laws "new" and "more restrictive".

Nice. And complete crap.
 
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