Apple's Tax Hypocrisy

Goride said:
Yet another disparging and defaming anti-Apple thread title.
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Wait, after nine years, you do know that the title of this thread is the title of the actual article that we linked. Right?

We do not make the titles, we just post them.

I will forward your complaint on to the author of the article.
 
Kueller said:
Apple is not following our laws. If they were there would be no need to launder profits through Irish, Dutch, and Caribbean subsidiaries. As for complying with the spirit of the laws?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/b...ategy-aims-at-low-tax-states-and-nations.html

I suppose when you purchase the language of the laws to exclude your business from taxation, you are complying with the spirit of the laws as written. Unfortunately, buying laws in a democratic society kind of goes against the spirit of Law itself.


While Apple is not breaking our laws, it is a pioneer and innovator in the field of avoiding our laws. The US Gov't has a long (and ongoing) history of applying its laws outside our borders. Kim Dotcom/Megaupload?


Very cute, they counted their employees' income taxes in their total. I wonder if Cook was using similarly creative numbers with congress.
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Did you read the article you linked? Because, apparently, it does not support your position.

It even mentions that hundreds of other companies are doing the same thing.

Using Ireland to avoid paying taxes is legal. It has been legal. And if a public corporation knows about it, they LEGALLY HAVE TO UTILIZE IT if it is in its best fiduciary interest to do so. Apple has to do it. It is not an option. Apple does not have a choice, based on our corporate laws, they must utilize this tax benefit.

You want to hate on Apple, but your blame is misplaced.
 
aardvark sandwich said:
raise corporate taxes:
less investor capital > less money in the company > reduced product > higher prices
hurts investors, hurts workers, hurts consumers.
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This is a simplistic econ 101 world view and the world doesn't work that way and never has FYI. Taxes are after all on profit and not principal so capital is preserved even in a high tax environment. It should be noted too the best periods of prosperity for the middle class and poor have always had higher taxes on the rich and investor capital.

charts n shit
http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/41000592.pdf[/QUOTE]
OECD= neoliberal scumbags on par with the IMF that have consistently been wrong about the "recovery" the world is supposed to be in for years and always and forever push for lower taxes as a solution despite taxes already being at historical lows.

Better chart without the shit:
 
Goride said:
It even mentions that hundreds of other companies are doing the same thing.
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If hundreds of people jumped off a bridge would you do it too?

Goride said:
Using Ireland to avoid paying taxes is legal. It has been legal.
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Once upon a time slavery and debtor's prisons were legal too. And don't forget marrying and having kids with your 12 yr old cousin used to be perfectly legal too!!

Just because its legal doesn't make it right or moral and what people believe is right and moral changes with time. However the law don't always keep up with society even if your government is interested in doing a good job. But what if you're government isn't interested in doing a good job or is even loaded with corrupt scumbags?

Well then its kind've silly to just be OK with whatever just because its legal isn't it?

Goride said:
they LEGALLY HAVE TO UTILIZE IT if it is in its best fiduciary interest to do so.
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No they don't. Apple won't go out of business if its profits are reduced some. They'll still make plenty of money even if they didn't evade taxes and have publicly said so to congress.
 
Steve said:
Wait, after nine years, you do know that the title of this thread is the title of the actual article that we linked. Right?

We do not make the titles, we just post them.

I will forward your complaint on to the author of the article.
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My bad on the thread title bit, Steve.


I should have said, "Yet another disparging and defaming anti-Apple article title." And pointed my ire moreso toward the article's author.
 
mesyn191 said:
If hundreds of people jumped off a bridge would you do it too?
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Apple does not have a choice. They legally must do this.

Once upon a time slavery and debtor's prisons were legal too. And don't forget marrying and having kids with your 12 yr old cousin used to be perfectly legal too!!

Just because its legal doesn't make it right or moral and what people believe is right and moral changes with time. However the law don't always keep up with society even if your government is interested in doing a good job. But what if you're government isn't interested in doing a good job or is even loaded with corrupt scumbags?

Well then its kind've silly to just be OK with whatever just because its legal isn't it?
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I agree with you that the laws do not always keep up with the times. But you have to understand, Apple is not doing this just because it is legal. They are doing it because the HAVE TO.

No they don't. Apple won't go out of business if its profits are reduced some. They'll still make plenty of money even if they didn't evade taxes and have publicly said so to congress.
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Yes, in fact they do. This is not about them going out of business. This is not about them still being profitable even if they were to pay all that money in taxes.

Public corporations, such as Apple, have a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders. That is the most absolute rule that a public corporation MUST abide by. What this means is that, by law, a public corporation MUST do whatever it deems to be in the best financial interest of its shareholders. Apple MUST avoid paying taxes if it legally can do so.

It is not a choice they can make. They do not get to choose to pay taxes "because it is the right thing to do." The ONLY way Apple can legally justify itself to not utilize this tax benefit, and pay those taxes, is if Apple's board can legitimately argue that by paying these taxes Apple will gain some sort of competitive advantage over its competitors. Since paying billions in taxes will not benefit Apple more than it hurts them, Apple CANNOT LEGALLY choose to pay those taxes, when they know of a way to avoid them.

This is how corporate law in this country works. Apple is an American corporation and must abide by American corporation laws.

They are not doing this just because it is legal for them to do so. They are doing it because they legally MUST do so.

Again, your blame is misplaced. If you hate this, hate our American corporation laws. Do not hate Apple simply because they are doing what is required of them.
 
Goride said:
My bad on the thread title bit, Steve.


I should have said, "Yet another disparging and defaming anti-Apple article title." And pointed my ire moreso toward the article's author.
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Just look at it this way, it's too easy to poke fun out of Apple. Everytime you might think, "ok I might be going overboard on the apple bashing", that's about the time when Apple does something else new: "What in the world?!?!? How are they getting away with that!" In many public arenas they get a free pass that no other company like Google or Microsoft would never get away with. This forum is the great equalizer.
 
mesyn191 said:
The middle class and poor would end up being effectively taxed more than the rich. Even more so than today.
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Well, no, but they would pay a fair portion, as compared to today, where the poor do not pay taxes at all, in reality the poor take tax from us and pay nothing.

But... what you are saying effectively means the fair tax stops supporting folks that do not pay any taxes. As if that would be a bad thing?


What are you some kind of commie?
 
potency said:
I find your use of the word defaming quite "disparging."
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I suppose that is your opinion. But I would contend that it is a very valid word to use.

The article's title is clearly meant to draw unwarranted negative attention towards Apple. It even says "Apple's Hypocrisy". However, this is not Apple's choice. They are doing what must be done under American corporate law.

What is hypocritical is that the people that is hating on Apple for utilizing tax breaks (loopholes) are likely using tax breaks (loopholes) on their own taxes. Any tax deduction, such as dependent children, the various college deducitons, donating to charity, etc., are all tax "loopholes." I bet most people use them if they can. The difference is, we have the choice of whether to utilize them or not. We do not have to. A public corporation does not have that choice. They MUST utilize all tax breaks (loopholes) that they know about.
 
Parmenides said:
Just look at it this way, it's too easy to poke fun out of Apple. Everytime you might think, "ok I might be going overboard on the apple bashing", that's about the time when Apple does something else new: "What in the world?!?!? How are they getting away with that!" In many public arenas they get a free pass that no other company like Google or Microsoft would never get away with. This forum is the great equalizer.
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Except Google and Microsoft are doing the EXACT same thing Apple is doing here.

But you do not see articles bashing them over this do you? No. Only Apple seems to be getting the negative blow back for this.
 
Goride said:
Apple does not have a choice. They legally must do this.
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Nope. You keep going on about "fiduciary responsibility" as if its the end all be all that makes everything legal open season to exploit but in reality its a huge grey area. The only way legally Apple would be forced to do this is if they were successfully sued by shareholders and were forced to by a court. To say anything else is speculation on your part.
 
mesyn191 said:
No. "Fair Tax" is a just a rebranded "Flat Tax" which is regressive. The middle class and poor would end up being effectively taxed more than the rich. Even more so than today.
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You have no idea what you just wrote about. I was one of John Linder's researchers for the tax and the book he wrote with Neal Boortz. Go read it and educate yourself.
 
BBA said:
Well, no, but they would pay a fair portion, as compared to today, where the poor do not pay taxes at all, in reality the poor take tax from us and pay nothing.
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Flat tax rates are inherently not fair at all. If you think so you don't understand what you're talking about and should go read up on progressive taxation but in a nutshell: the poor/non-rich must spend much more of their income on housing/food/necessities than the rich and so it is not only moral to tax them less and the rich more but actually economically required if you want any sort of middle class at all. If you want historical examples of proof of this then by all means look at pre modern history, especially in France, to see what happens to countries that effectively tax the non-rich more than the rich.

BBA said:
What are you some kind of commie?
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No communism is pure utopia IMO. But then so is a near perfect meritocracy or an efficient economic market that prices labor and/or skill accurately.
 
mesyn191 said:
Nope. You keep going on about "fiduciary responsibility" as if its the end all be all that makes everything legal open season to exploit but in reality its a huge grey area. The only way legally Apple would be forced to do this is if they were successfully sued by shareholders and were forced to by a court. To say anything else is speculation on your part.
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That argument is like saying murdering someone is not illegal unless they are found guilty in court.

Murder is still illegal. Whether or not someone actually committed it is another thing.

The law on fiduciary responsibility is pretty clear. A public corporation cannot spend its money on something unless the board can justify that it is in the best fiduciary interest of its shareholders.

Sure, it would take an actual court case to determine whether or not Apple actually infringed that rule. But it is pretty damn hard to justify a valid reason as to how spending billions in tax dollars, when they know of an easy way to avoid it - one that other companies in the field also use, is somehow in the best fiduciary interest of its shareholders. In fact, that is about as a clear cut violation as you can get.
 
maverikv said:
Hey here's an idea. Lets close the loopholes so companies pay their fair share and also cut waste? We can't do both?
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You didn't read the whole thread did you . . . I earlier advocated reforming the wasteful, bloated, and over complicated tax code.

But please explain to me why the government gets to spend like a drunken sailor and then come to it's citizens and it's company's and demand money to rectify the problem they created. Last I checked it was supposed to be a government of, by and for it's people!
 
Goride said:
Except Google and Microsoft are doing the EXACT same thing Apple is doing here.

But you do not see articles bashing them over this do you? No. Only Apple seems to be getting the negative blow back for this.
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Except like many other things, Apple is doing a much better job at it than everyone else. But they are far from being victimized. The top dog is always the top target. There is nothing "disparging" about that.
 
Tyler-Durden said:
You have no idea what you just wrote about. I was one of John Linder's researchers for the tax and the book he wrote with Neal Boortz. Go read it and educate yourself.
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Linder is just another Repub and Boortz is a Repub talking point spewer a la Limbaugh. Neither are experts in economics. And yes "Fair Tax" is just another Flat Tax but rebranded. Single tax rate plans are a feature of every variation of the Flat Tax with or without convoluted rebate plans, which is hilarious to tack onto a law supposedly designed to simplify the tax code. Reminds me of Regan and the AMT all over again, he too wanted to simplify the tax code.
 
potency said:
Except like many other things, Apple is doing a much better job at it than everyone else. But they are far from being victimized. The top dog is always the top target. There is nothing "disparging" about that.
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It is disparaging (happy?).

It is disparaging to have a title that attempts to destroy a company's goodwill, especially when that company is following what is required of them by law. In this particular situation it is against Apple, but it could be any company.

If Apple were not required, by law, to take these tax breaks, then I could see how it would not be unjustly disparaging. This is because Apple would have choosen to do this. But public corporations are not allowed to pay billions in taxes to the government if they do not have to.
 
Goride said:
That argument is like saying murdering someone is not illegal unless they are found guilty in court.
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Nope. Murder is always illegal even if you're not prosecuted/caught. Fiduciary responsibility has to be proven in a court of law. Otherwise Apple would also be required to do stuff like overthrow a small 3rd world country, install a puppet dictator, enact legalized slavery, and move all their manufacturing there as a cost saving matter to improve their profits for ~fiduciary responsibility~. Remember, it'd be legal.

Goride said:
The law on fiduciary responsibility is pretty clear. A public corporation cannot spend its money on something unless the board can justify that it is in the best fiduciary interest of its shareholders.
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"Hrrrm.... sure this whole tax evasion scheme sounds great guys, and it might even work for a while, but think about the blow back once word of this gets out!! We could get totally screwed if the politicians decide to crucify someone to appease the public or hell what if they decide to change the laws here or over seas to get back taxes?! Why tempt fate when we're making billions now? I already got more hookers and blow then I know what to do with and a team of full contact surprise sex 50 Shades of Grey LARP'ers/hitmen/hitwomen, what more could a corporate shitlord possibly want?!?"
 
Fuck You Apple, now go eat that bag of dicks you patient trolls and thieves.
 
So long as the US gov't isn't trying to tax them on taxes they've already paid in a foreign country,
 
1. Anyone that believes that giving money to the federal government for fund programs outside of the enumerated powers and expect them to produce anything of net benefit is in complete denial of reality. Every solution that government has come up with: Social Security, Medicare, Disability, Student Loans, ect ... has made the issue they meant to solve worse while driving the country further and further into debt. Even when these programs have proven to complete failures some moron comes up with the notion that if we just spend more on them then they will magically become viable ... regardless of what history has to say on the matter.

2. The irony of insinuating that our tech jobs must come at the hands of government though taxation of a company started in a garage with no government help at all is epic in its proportions. The idea that the credit for your hardwork in creating and growing a business is being given to government under the guise that they allowed you to be successful is insulting to the core.

3. When are people finally going to realize that its the taxes you are demanding that these firms pay that are the cause of the shortage of domestic engineering talent.

4. The only fair tax is a flat tax ... but we will need to teach people how percentages work first because most, like the head of the IRS, have no clue when it comes to math.
 
mesyn191 said:
It should be noted too the best periods of prosperity for the middle class and poor have always had higher taxes on the rich and investor capital.

OECD= neoliberal scumbags on par with the IMF that have consistently been wrong about the "recovery" the world is supposed to be in for years and always and forever push for lower taxes as a solution despite taxes already being at historical lows.
Click to expand...

Factually incorrect. While the tax rates were higher in the past, no one paid anywhere near them due to all the loopholes.

Play with the numbers all you want, you can't argue history. What are taxes, but means to generate income to government. When did we have the highest gains in income to government? When Reagan and Bush reduced the tax rates.

If you look at the laffer curve ... the debate is always about where the hump in the curve is that will give the best return based on tax rate. Well, as Bush and Reagan have shown, if reducing the tax rate increased government revenue then the hump is LEFT of where we are now. All increasing taxes will do is generate LESS money to the government.
 
It always surprises me how many neo-cons, fair taxers, armchair economists, gold standarders, randians and general derpers there are in the computer hardware enthusiast community considering the general perception of geeks as intelligent. These threads are always full of gems. Depressing little gems.
 
Taldren said:
Factually incorrect. While the tax rates were higher in the past, no one paid anywhere near them due to all the loopholes.

Play with the numbers all you want, you can't argue history. What are taxes, but means to generate income to government. When did we have the highest gains in income to government? When Reagan and Bush reduced the tax rates.

If you look at the laffer curve ... the debate is always about where the hump in the curve is that will give the best return based on tax rate. Well, as Bush and Reagan have shown, if reducing the tax rate increased government revenue then the hump is LEFT of where we are now. All increasing taxes will do is generate LESS money to the government.
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Oh god the laffer curve you have got to be kidding me. Don't they make you take an economics class as part of the core curriculum at most schools?
 
dr.stevil said:
lol How cute. They'd have a point if our tax dollars were used wisely by the government instead of an unlimited source of free money. Whats up with the younger generation and the feeling of entitlement? That's some scary shit.

As far as Hypocrisy goes... If you're not paying any more than your legal obligation in taxes, and have the balls to complain when someone else does the same thing... you need to brush up on your critical thinking skills.
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wonderfield said:
Because money solves education.

Alright.
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dr.stevil said:
Slightly OT. Anyone get the feeling that this whole controversy is smoke and mirrors to distract people from other 'scandals' going on? I mean, this story isn't even really news... It's common practice
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aireyc said:
Let me say this is nicely as I possibly can: Some of you people are incredibly retarded. Showing charts and all of that, as if you have a clue.

Here's the deal: The rich get rich because the poor are relatively stupid. The poor are stupid because of #1 genetics and #2 the government enables behavior that lets these people get by without any motivation to stop being stupid. The government enables the behavior because everyone who isn't poor feels sorry for the stupid people, so they give the government all of this power to help the poor, which really has the opposite effect. You also have this rogue category of rich who take advantage of the system the government sets up which lets them take advantage of everyone who is a part of the system.

Solution: Recognize we're all different and some people aren't as smart as others. If you feel an obligation to help the poor, do it yourself and maybe convince others to do the same on their own dime. Destroy the structures the government has established which are merely exploited by the rogue element without actually helping those who need it.

Apple is simply doing what is necessary to gain as much as it legally can out of the given system.
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What these guys said. Funny thing is that most of the people on the other side of the fence are in agreement that the government is a money sucking clueless whore. So why are you complaining it's not getting enough money to waste? Such irony and contradiction...

But then again we are talking politics in a pc hardware forum. We might as well be debating grammar in a hip hop forum or pc hardware on youtube. But... it's so easy to get sucked in. Steve, Kyle... you slicksters! If you had ads in the forums, you'd both would be rich by now.
 
Taldren said:
Factually incorrect.
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Nope.


Taldren said:
When did we have the highest gains in income to government? When Reagan and Bush reduced the tax rates.
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We also had the biggest recessions in the last 20-30 years thanks to those 2 FYI. Their economic policies produced booms that all busted leaving the rich richer and the poor poorer and on top of that left us with massive regulatory capture.

Taldren said:
If you look at the laffer curve
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No. Even econ 101 no longer takes the Laffer Curve seriously. Hell I think even Laffer walked back most of this thoughts on it and now considers it a "pedagogical tool" at best. FYI as near as anyone can tell this is what the "real" (its open to serious academic debate still) Laffer Curve looks like and not the idiotic inverted U you see elsewhere:
 
maverikv said:
It always surprises me how many neo-cons, fair taxers, armchair economists, gold standarders, randians and general derpers there are in the computer hardware enthusiast community considering the general perception of geeks as intelligent. These threads are always full of gems. Depressing little gems.
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This is the reason I make a distinction between computer geek and computer nerd. A computer geek is just someone that loves computer stuff. He/she may not actually know much, but they love tinkering and the hobby. A computer nerd is an actual smart person that loves computer stuff and also is good at his hobby.
 
w3asFvg.jpg


This chart proves that blacks and jews are 43.6% responsible for Apple dodging taxes. Just check the second dip in the bell curve.
 
XamediX said:
charts can never ever represent actual real world data and people that agree with you are smart because they don't try and back up what they say with facts because something something something

Look at me dad I can cut and paste stuff I agree with. Dad look at tme. Look LOOK
Click to expand...
....
 
Goride said:
Except Google and Microsoft are doing the EXACT same thing Apple is doing here.

But you do not see articles bashing them over this do you? No. Only Apple seems to be getting the negative blow back for this.
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There has been slightly less google bashing now that Eric Schmidt is no longer CEO, but as far as tax evasion loopholes goes I've heard plenty from Google here on [H]. Microsoft (formly known as The Evil Empire) is also on the news too. Lately, Apple is getting the most news because of their testimony to congress. A juicy trip to Washington is going to drown out most other news. Actually, before this trip, google seemed to have more news than apple.
 
XamediX said:
w3asFvg.jpg


This chart proves that blacks and jews are 43.6% responsible for Apple dodging taxes. Just check the second dip in the bell curve.
Click to expand...

Useless graph if you ask me. Doesn't take into account women in the military or gays.
 
mesyn191 said:
Already read up on it and this is a better link FYI:
http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/unspinning_the_fairtax.html

Its a Flat Tax that adds a convoluted rebate scheme to try and fool the uninformed/gullible. That is all.
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Wrong, again. The follow up book makes mincemeat of your, and FactCheck's, claims.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1389517282&pf_rd_i=507846

It's a longer read than a single web page, but you'll actually learn something.
 
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Tyler-Durden said:
Wrong, again. The follow up book makes mincemeat of your, and FactCheck's, claims.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1389517282&pf_rd_i=507846

It's a longer read than a single web page, but you'll actually learn something.
Click to expand...
More crap from a Limbaugh wanna-be and random Repub. that was upvoted and paid for by his suckers/fans if the Amazon reviews are anything to go by. Restating the same old arguments in a different way is not a refutation and its pretty terrible of you to expect people to shell out money to read something like that.

Even worse is he goes around asking d-bag business men their opinion about stuff as "evidence". Good lord how stupid do you have to be to spend money on this propaganda much less actually believe it?
 
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